Protein, Protein, Protein -enough Protein

Moby_Dick wrote: »

It's like an epidemic. Of course, we need protein, it's essential for our health, it's used to build muscles, hair, and nails. I think the typical American diet contains enough protein. We eat meat, fish, and eggs with every meal.

I am not a bodybuilder, neither am I an active athlete. I am just a fat woman trying to lose weight.

People's comments on the protein intake here are humorous. "Good day, enough protein." Really?

If I decide to have a meatless day and eat veggies only -like we did when I was a child, then it's not a good day?

Weight loss comes from counting calories, so I will lose weight when I eat 1200 calories of vegetable stew, won't I?

Years ago a study showed that we all lose weight faster if we don't combine carbs with protein. So instead of the protein epidemic, people ate protein alone for one meal, then carbs and fiber for the next meal, the results were similar to the Atkins diet and all the other diets that are copycats like Paleo and Southbeach.

Isn't too much protein unhealthy and can even be harmful to our body? (Liver and Kidney)

The RDA is basically the minimum for general health and assumes a sedentary lifestyle...over 1 gram per Lb of LBM is basically making expensive glucose...somewhere in between is where most active adults should be.

I'm very active and certainly benefit from having more than the RDA, but I don't really concern myself with getting 1 gram per Lb of LBM...I'm more of an endurance athlete and while I do lift, it is namely as a cross training support component of my cycling so I wouldn't consider myself to be a "strength" athlete.

I also eat vegetarian 3 days per week on average, sometimes more...I still get plenty of protein with things like lentils, beans, eggs and egg whites, cottage cheese and other dairy, etc. On average I'd say I hit around 120 grams per day give or take...

As to too much protein being harmful...sure...but it takes a lot and is more concerning when someone already has kidney issues. It's like too much water is toxic...which is true...but it takes a *kitten* ton of water to get there.

Like I said before, 1 gram per Lb of LBM is pretty much the upper limit of what your body can actually use, and that's really not going to hurt anyone.

snickerscharlie wrote: »

Ah, I just noticed the OP rage quit. <sigh> So it seems I wasted my time trying to help her.

Hopefully, other people new to this process will be able to get (and use) the very valuable information about the importance of getting adequate amounts of protein while losing weight.

Ridiculous. Ragequitting is the new....rage.

I started typing this earlier and got distracted. I hope you are still around under a new username, OP Moby_Dick. I believe that the protein discussion is an important one to have.

The RDA for protein is the bare minimum for a healthy young person who is not eating in a deficit. The minimum to avoid getting sick.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18819733

The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein, as promulgated by the Food and Nutrition Board of the United States National Academy of Science, is 0.8 g protein/kg body weight/day for adults, regardless of age. This value represents the minimum amount of protein required to avoid progressive loss of lean body mass in most individuals.

Age-related muscle and bone loss starts early. You don't have to be 65 to start worrying about hip fractures. Muscle and bone loss starts in our 30s and 40s. So NOW is the time to start protecting your muscle and bone. To further exacerbate the problem, when you are in a calorie deficit, you are breaking down both fat and muscle for fuel. We know two things that can save your existing muscle: You need to eat adequate protein so the material to maintain muscle is readily available, and you need some resistance training to keep your muscles stimulated (your body will not break down muscle that it still in high demand as much as it will break down muscle that isn't used). 

It's nearly impossible to grow bulky muscles 1) as a woman 2) of a certain age 3) in a calorie deficit 4) without specifically trying to do so with a progressive lifting program. It takes optimum conditions. While resistance training gives our muscles the stimulus to grow, for us it really just means "don't wither." You won't be building larger muscle tissue while your body has to dip into muscle and fat reserves in order to meet your daily energy requirements.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665330/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3337037

If you are OK with just losing weight via a calorie (and likely protein) deficit, you will be successful because losing weight is all about CICO. If you "want to be lean and have muscles," you should do everything you can to save the muscles that you have by eating adequate protein and by doing some sort of resistance training along with your calorie deficit.

People here know what they are talking about. I think that you will find that most of the people who are giving you advice are successful at reaching their goals, and are just sharing what they have learned along the way -- Including pointing out myths and ideas about foods and muscle building that have been disproved.

I lost weight solely via CICO, because back then all I knew was that I can eat whatever I want and still lose weight. Worked swimmingly. I was not concerned about retaining muscle because I didn't know that I was losing it. Not many people know that when they first start. I am now following a progressive resistance training program to get my muscles to look decent (and hopefully change that pancake that I sit on back into an actual booty). I wish I had started it last February, but better late than never.

I understand your concerns about the quality of foods you wish to eat. As others have stated, there are plenty of options for protein out there, and you can get it all from plant-based foods if you wish.

cee134 wrote: »

The math doesn't add up for me.

If my goal weight is 200 that's (.8 x 200lbs) = 160 grams of protein a day. Or about 5 servings of skinless chicken breasts at 3.5 ounces and 165 kcal each. Or 19 oz (1lbs 3 oz) and 880 kcal of only protein servings a day. That doesn't leave alot of room for fiber and micronutrient needs. I don't eat any red meat and am trying to keep my saturated fat at or below 11 grams. I would prefer a mostly plant based diet, but that is impossible with 160 grams of protein a day and hitting calorie goals.

I just don't see that as possible. Can someone help me work this out? Not only does eating over 1 pound of chicken a day sound like a lot, it sounds expensive too.

You're an adult male so your RDA is 56 grams. You want to eat at least that.

There's a big gap between 56 grams and 160 grams. If 160 doesn't work for your way of eating, experiment to find an amount that does work. 100 grams would be nearly twice the RDA and that may be a more realistic goal for you.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

It's like an epidemic. Of course, we need protein, it's essential for our health, it's used to build muscles, hair, and nails. I think the typical American diet contains enough protein. We eat meat, fish, and eggs with every meal.

What are you really trying to get at here? Your post is a bit unfocused or a least a bit confusing to me.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

I am not a bodybuilder, neither am I an active athlete. I am just a fat woman trying to lose weight.

This is vague.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

People's comments on the protein intake here are humorous. "Good day, enough protein." Really?

You don't know what their challenges/goals are? What's the humor in that.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

If I decide to have a meatless day and eat veggies only -like we did when I was a child, then it's not a good day?

the outcome of your day is up to you and your goals and what you value.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

Weight loss comes from counting calories, so I will lose weight when I eat 1200 calories of vegetable stew, won't I?

No one can really provide advice on this, your didn't specify your RMR and activity level.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

Years ago a study showed that we all lose weight faster if we don't combine carbs with protein. So instead of the protein epidemic, people ate protein alone for one meal, then carbs and fiber for the next meal, the results were similar to the Atkins diet and all the other diets that are copycats like Paleo and Southbeach.

Another vague comment.

Moby_Dick wrote: »

Isn't too much protein unhealthy and can even be harmful to our body? (Liver and Kidney)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=too+much+protein+in+diet+kidney&amp;btnG=&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=0,33&amp;oq=too+much+protein+in+diet+kid
Yes! But is that what you really wanted to ask?

I am not trying to come across as unfriendly here. It sounds like you have sincere questions regarding protein but try helping the people you want answers from by providing specific question about what you're unsure or want to know more about.

I never got enough protein until I joined mfp and became aware of nutrition and the lack of it in my diet. I'm not a big meat eater, nor a big eater of things that have a decent amount. I had to greatly change my eating habits. I'm 5'5" and would not be lying if I said most days years ago I was lucky if I got 20-30 grams a day.

dewd2 wrote: »

I always try to find meta analysis when possible. This is a 'study of studies'. It draws conclusions from many studies and is generally what is considered to be the best statement of facts as they are currently known.

Here is one article I found that attempts to clarify the confusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25926512

Abstract
Over the past 20 y, higher-protein diets have been touted as a successful strategy to prevent or treat obesity through improvements in body weight management. These improvements are thought to be due, in part, to modulations in energy metabolism, appetite, and energy intake. Recent evidence also supports higher-protein diets for improvements in cardiometabolic risk factors. This article provides an overview of the literature that explores the mechanisms of action after acute protein consumption and the clinical health outcomes after consumption of long-term, higher-protein diets. Several meta-analyses of shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies showed greater weight loss, fat mass loss, and preservation of lean mass after higher-protein energy-restriction diets than after lower-protein energy-restriction diets. Reductions in triglycerides, blood pressure, and waist circumference were also reported. In addition, a review of the acute feeding trials confirms a modest satiety effect, including greater perceived fullness and elevated satiety hormones after higher-protein meals but does not support an effect on energy intake at the next eating occasion.Although shorter-term, tightly controlled feeding studies consistently identified benefits with increased protein consumption, longer-term studies produced limited and conflicting findings; nevertheless,a recent meta-analysis showed persistent benefits of a higher-protein weight-loss diet on body weight and fat mass. Dietary compliance appears to be the primary contributor to the discrepant findings because improvements in weight management were detected in those who adhered to the prescribed higher-protein regimen, whereas those who did not adhere to the diet had no marked improvements. Collectively, these data suggest that higher-protein diets that contain between 1.2 and 1.6 g protein · kg-1 · d-1 and potentially include meal-specific protein quantities of at least ∼25-30 g protein/meal provide improvements in appetite, body weight management, cardiometabolic risk factors, or all of these health outcomes; however, further strategies to increase dietary compliance with long-term dietary interventions are warranted.

My experience based on a much higher than suggested protein diet is consistent with the results highlighted in the abstract of the meta-analysis noted in bold in the quoted text above. Click on the "slow previous quotes" link to see it.

I am 66 years old and lost 35# from 196 down to 161 and reduced my BF from +20% to 12.1% in just 6 months based on a 1800-1900 cal/day diet with 3-5 days of lifting plus heavy cardio (mainly rowing) during the 1st 4 months and only lifting during the last 2 months. The following are additional details about my experience that I reported in another thread:

My macro goal over this time period was (and continues to be) 40P/40C/20F but my actual macros as recorded by MFP were 35P/39C/26F based on a gross average of 181g protein, 206g carbs and 60g fat per day.

The protein ratio has been between 1.12g per # of BW and 1.27g per # of LBM. Much higher than generally recommended, as was intended, because of my goal to maintain and, if possible, increase LBM while on a deficit diet and based on certain reports that older people need a higher ratio of protein in their diet in order to maintain LBM.

For those who worry about such things, I have experienced no ill effects - physically or medically -- while on this high protein diet. However, I have been supplementing my diet w/psyllium husk for fiber and papaya & pineapple enzyme to aid in the digestion of the protein and to reduce gas. All of these supplements have been effective in doing what the are intended to do.

An increase in my LBM was twice measured during the past 4 months. Between Aug-Oct 2016, LBM as measured by DXA increased 2.8# from 137.2 to 140# and between Sep-Dec 2016, LBM as measured by Hydrostatic Testing increased 3.6# from 137.9 to 141.5. So, I believe that my high protein diet and weight lifting program have proven their effectiveness in not only maintaining but actually increasing my LBM while on a deficit diet.

Note: My protein intake was usually around 40-60g protein per meal; 3-4x's a day. The average kg equivalent of protein that I have been ingesting on this diet is 2.47g/kg of BW and 2.81g/kg of LBM, based on a weight of 161# and 12.1% BF at the time of the last measurement by hydrostatic testing.

So, at least for me, a high protein diet at over twice the amount normally recommended coupled with a progressive weight lifting program has been quite beneficial to me.

My current goal is to maintain my weight and BF% where it is now but I will not be unhappy if I am also able to continue to increase my LBM while reducing BF% based on the same diet and exercise program.

I'm married to a registered dietician and we talk about this stuff all the time. Her focus is health and organ function in critically ill patients so she's always running numbers and looking at blood work, fluid balance issues, electrolyte labs etc. on her patient population. She laughs at how much protein I eat.

This site is fitness focused though so the recommendations are gonna be more swayed toward the athletic, strength training and bodybuilding crowd because those are the people who always sign up as guinea pigs for research.

Protein is also great for controlling hunger! I wish I would have know this in 2010 when i started my journey. I've lost a 100 pounds and and working myself out of the skinny fat predicament. I never thought I could stomach 1gram per pound of body weight but I really love eating high protein mixed with plenty of good complex carbs. I never have cravings for junk, sleep great, have great libido and enjoy the gym.

It might not work for everyone but there is a reason the fitness crowd are obsessed with protein.

The multiplier is POINT 8 grams per KILOGRAM of body weight.

That gets misread here all. the. time. as point 8 grams per pound. Not so.

Reading is fundamental.