Which lifting program is the best for you?
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Early on in my 20's I trained with a few guys that only competed in a drug free federation, I don't remember which. I asked one did they take supplements of anything, they said no, that hey just ate. Although two of them were brothers that trained the same and were in the 220 lb class but looked like they weighed 275,lol. Their lifts were really close, around 385 bench, over 630 squat and their specialty deadlift was 720-730. The other guy trained totally different, I hooked up with him and worked out. He had a 585 bench, over 500 squat and over 600 dead. He was country as hell, just ate country food. He believed in a certain way different from the others. I think a lot of these routines and programs are variations of old school stuff. I would pick up a Powerlifting USA magazine back then and follow some of their stuff. Some worked some didn't. SideSteel what is it that you disagree on? I stopped PL when I was 34, wished I hadn't stopped. Got back into at 46, found that training now is a little different than back then. Gotta work around injuries, do have to eat a lot better. Changed bench style because of shoulder surgery. Would like to get back into it for one more meet in the old dudes division raw.1
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So how much have you gained with all these programs that are some variation of what old school lifters have been doing all along. For someone who just trains heavy, changes it up from time to time, are you that much stronger following these programs. Fitness and lifting has become too technical and scientific. Eat this at this time of day, take this 29 min. before workout, drink this during, weigh your food etc. How much more would you get out of all this? I would truly like to know in power lifting there are technical scientific people and people who just eat right and lift. Seen both types win meets. Just curious, not trying to offend anyone although I feel it coming.
I understand where you're coming from with this.
I don't necessarily agree with you but I don't think your opinion is offensive, and I also think that if you train hard and your program is not totally moronic you will still make good progress.
This, and some people (including most new lifters) don't really know how to properly program their training. As such, they need someone/something to tell them what to do.
Others just like having to not think too much about it. Sure, if you're going to compete, you're more likely to think about it and gain some idea of what needs tweaking. But for the genpop, that just wants to get stronger and/or bigger and/or maintain muscle on a cut? A program should take most, if not all, of the guesswork out of it, so (s)he can just focus on the lifting, as opposed to worrying about the minutia.
But, sure - the more you know - the less you (in theory, should) need a prewritten program. Also, with more experience, you can see how certain lifts respond to different modes of training and adjust, as necessary.
I did keep a record back in the day. I don't now, with age comes aches and pains. I do my PT for the shoulder and back before I start my workouts. What I do depends on how I feel. I remember reps and weight and routines I do. I guess if you're a beginner it would be easier to follow a set plan or routine, but I would add hooking up with a veteran PL person for an extra advantage.0 -
I do not disagree with anyone and am not insinuating anything, just asking questions.0
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I think that proper program design can enhance results however a big caveat here again is "what are we comparing it to".
Example: someone running starting strength improperly and staying with the program way too long. They might still be squatting and benching and deadlifting but if they don't manage fatigue properly (which by definition they aren't if they are staying on the program longer than their ability to progress at the rate the program dictates) they will end up wheel spinning.
Take someone like this and put them on a DUP program designed intelligently and they tend to make a lot of progress.
Of course this is just one example and I'm not suggesting this happens to everyone.
that being said, I think a scenario where a program is customized and variables like volume and intensity are managed according to results by someone who knows what they are doing will get faster and better results compared to any pre written program for the most part.
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Agreed.0
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Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
An argument can be made that a lower rep (4-6) at around 80% of your 1RM for your core lifts will provide some benefit over 8 to 12. For accessory lifts the reps can be a bit higher. But ultimately, you would need a program that you enjoy and enables your to have adequate recovery (3 day full body vs split).
I will have to find the article but Layne Norton talks about his lack of real progress until he started lifting real heavy. It actually might be in the PHAT link or PH3.1 -
I think that proper program design can enhance results however a big caveat here again is "what are we comparing it to".
Example: someone running starting strength improperly and staying with the program way too long. They might still be squatting and benching and deadlifting but if they don't manage fatigue properly (which by definition they aren't if they are staying on the program longer than their ability to progress at the rate the program dictates) they will end up wheel spinning.
Take someone like this and put them on a DUP program designed intelligently and they tend to make a lot of progress.
Of course this is just one example and I'm not suggesting this happens to everyone.
that being said, I think a scenario where a program is customized and variables like volume and intensity are managed according to results by someone who knows what they are doing will get faster and better results compared to any pre written program for the most part.
If only we could all have such a good coach that can accomplish such things.0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Springfield1970 wrote: »Strong Curves is my go to nowadays, but quite surprised to see it listed as beginners. Surely that all depends on the weight that's being lifted compared to body weight.
That can be said of any program. After a while you lift heavy (heavier than strong curves) with strong lifts. I would classify the advanced strong curves as advanced beginner. I find intermediate programs more challenging. They are basically what you move on to once you stall out on beginner programs.
Strong curves has body weight, beginner and advanced as options. I agree with the classification as advanced beginner. It's a bit more complicated than some of the other programs but still achievable as a beginner with a bit of experience.0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Springfield1970 wrote: »Strong Curves is my go to nowadays, but quite surprised to see it listed as beginners. Surely that all depends on the weight that's being lifted compared to body weight.
That can be said of any program. After a while you lift heavy (heavier than strong curves) with strong lifts. I would classify the advanced strong curves as advanced beginner. I find intermediate programs more challenging. They are basically what you move on to once you stall out on beginner programs.
Strong curves has body weight, beginner and advanced as options. I agree with the classification as advanced beginner. It's a bit more complicated than some of the other programs but still achievable as a beginner with a bit of experience.
Yea this You can make it more advanced with modifications too. I love Strong Curves but have since moved on to Get Glutes which is still a "beginner" type program. It is very similar to Strong Curves style but maybe taken to the next level. If you have specific strength goals, probably not the program for you. Physique/aesthetic goals, yes.1 -
An argument can be made that a lower rep (4-6) at around 80% of your 1RM for your core lifts will provide some benefit over 8 to 12.
Recently came across the following article on "The Waterbury Method" which mentions using 4x6 in combo w/the 10x3 program that Waterbury started advocating over 10 years ago:
See: https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/waterbury-method
Just started doing the 10x3 @ 80% x1RM for my DL and OHP workouts. Not sure if I'll go w/the 4x6 @ 80% x1RM, when not doing 10x3, but will consider it as an option.
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An argument can be made that a lower rep (4-6) at around 80% of your 1RM for your core lifts will provide some benefit over 8 to 12.
Recently came across the following article on "The Waterbury Method" which mentions using 4x6 in combo w/the 10x3 program that Waterbury started advocating over 10 years ago:
See: https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/waterbury-method
Just started doing the 10x3 @ 80% x1RM for my DL and OHP workouts. Not sure if I'll go w/the 4x6 @ 80% x1RM, when not doing 10x3, but will consider it as an option.
That's a good article. It's very much in line with the stuff I am reading from Mike Matthews (currently, reading his book Bigger, Leaner, Strong). He emphasizes use of 4-6 reps, generally in the 30-60 total rep ranges and focus on the big 4, @ ~ 80-85% of 1RM. Below is a pretty good article. It's sources some NIH studies as well.
https://www.muscleforlife.com/guide-to-muscle-hypertrophy-muscle-growth/
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Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
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Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
I found “A Workout Routine” a couple of years ago while looking for a strength training companion to my new diet (MFP) and cardio plan. It played a significant role in helping me drop 50+ pounds. I liked the author’s writing style and workout philosophy well enough to purchase the author’s book “Superior Muscle Growth”. With the book there was also a companion guide of workout routines, one of which is geared specifically towards fat loss and muscle maintenance. While in a deficit, the author advocates maintaining strength on the bar at all costs even at the expense of overall volume and frequency. For example if you’re currently benching 200lbs 6-8 times, your goal while in a deficit is to continue to bench 200lbs, although a 4-8 rep range is acceptable for muscle maintenance. Makes sense to me. On a related, the author is currently working on “Superior Fat Loss” which I looking forward to as I’m starting a cut soon myself.2 -
Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
I found “A Workout Routine” a couple of years ago while looking for a strength training companion to my new diet (MFP) and cardio plan. It played a significant role in helping me drop 50+ pounds. I liked the author’s writing style and workout philosophy well enough to purchase the author’s book “Superior Muscle Growth”. With the book there was also a companion guide of workout routines, one of which is geared specifically towards fat loss and muscle maintenance. While in a deficit, the author advocates maintaining strength on the bar at all costs even at the expense of overall volume and frequency. For example if you’re currently benching 200lbs 6-8 times, your goal while in a deficit is to continue to bench 200lbs, although a 4-8 rep range is acceptable for muscle maintenance. Makes sense to me. On a related, the author is currently working on “Superior Fat Loss” which I looking forward to as I’m starting a cut soon myself.
That is also the philsophy of Mike Matthews (muscle for life). In fact, he emphasizes higher weight during cuts as it will support the ability to maintain muscle. Initially, you might have to reduce load or reps but you should strive to get it back up to bulk weights. In the end volume, is one of the biggest factors because hypertrophy can occur in various ranges; typically, its been between 25-60 total reps. How you get there will have much greater impacts on total strength though.1 -
Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
I found “A Workout Routine” a couple of years ago while looking for a strength training companion to my new diet (MFP) and cardio plan. It played a significant role in helping me drop 50+ pounds. I liked the author’s writing style and workout philosophy well enough to purchase the author’s book “Superior Muscle Growth”. With the book there was also a companion guide of workout routines, one of which is geared specifically towards fat loss and muscle maintenance. While in a deficit, the author advocates maintaining strength on the bar at all costs even at the expense of overall volume and frequency. For example if you’re currently benching 200lbs 6-8 times, your goal while in a deficit is to continue to bench 200lbs, although a 4-8 rep range is acceptable for muscle maintenance. Makes sense to me. On a related, the author is currently working on “Superior Fat Loss” which I looking forward to as I’m starting a cut soon myself.
That is also the philsophy of Mike Matthews (muscle for life). In fact, he emphasizes higher weight during cuts as it will support the ability to maintain muscle. Initially, you might have to reduce load or reps but you should strive to get it back up to bulk weights. In the end volume, is one of the biggest factors because hypertrophy can occur in various ranges; typically, its been between 25-60 total reps. How you get there will have much greater impacts on total strength though.
Thanks for all of the above. I've been following Mike Matthews's plan for women for two years and it's been amazing. He has the ladies in the 8-10 rep range (as opposed to 6-8 for men). I can't remember why, though.
Edit for punctuation0 -
Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
Hi! Thanks. Yes, that's what attracted me to it. After doing a 5-day split for two years I thought it might be fun to try something new (while still sticking to all the main compound moves because...because). It will definitely be a hit to see the weight and reps go down. That'll be sad.0 -
Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
Hi! Thanks. Yes, that's what attracted me to it. After doing a 5-day split for two years I thought it might be fun to try something new (while still sticking to all the main compound moves because...because). It will definitely be a hit to see the weight and reps go down. That'll be sad.
I like it because of the change too. I added a few things from strong curves onto it and now it feels like the perfect mix. Weight/reps have been going up...up...up for me since I've started it. I'm actually surprised that Ive been able to do as much as I've done. But now with the upcoming cut all I can think is...this is going to come to a screeching halt real fast.... Keeping the weight up makes sense though.
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Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
I found “A Workout Routine” a couple of years ago while looking for a strength training companion to my new diet (MFP) and cardio plan. It played a significant role in helping me drop 50+ pounds. I liked the author’s writing style and workout philosophy well enough to purchase the author’s book “Superior Muscle Growth”. With the book there was also a companion guide of workout routines, one of which is geared specifically towards fat loss and muscle maintenance. While in a deficit, the author advocates maintaining strength on the bar at all costs even at the expense of overall volume and frequency. For example if you’re currently benching 200lbs 6-8 times, your goal while in a deficit is to continue to bench 200lbs, although a 4-8 rep range is acceptable for muscle maintenance. Makes sense to me. On a related, the author is currently working on “Superior Fat Loss” which I looking forward to as I’m starting a cut soon myself.
Thank you! I'll keep a look out for the book as well. People are always posting articles from A Workout Routine here, which is how I started getting the newsletter. I like the guy's style as well.0 -
Hi all. I'll be finished with my first bulk in one month. Prior to that I had been cutting and recomping for approximately two years. I've always done progressive overload trying to get to the 8-10 rep range. My goals for coming out of this bulk are, obviously, to lose the fat I gained while keeping as much muscle as possible, and then just maintaining for the summer. For those goals, is it best to keep in that 8-10 rep range or do the whole lower weight high rep thing? I remember reading somewhere that high rep/low weight was good aesthetics, which is why I ask. TIA for your thoughts/suggestions/advice.
This just popped up in my email. The 4-day upper/lower split looks fun and is pretty different from the 5-day split that I've always done.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/
I'm not commenting to give advice but rather to express my thoughts.... I started this program a few weeks ago and really love it. I did quickly start to question the way the volume drops off as the weight increases though. As someone else pointed out to me, this program is basically all power days. While I'm enjoying it and it's very challenging, I don't know how it would play out while in a deficit. I suppose I'll find out soon enough because I'm almost ready to start cutting.
Hi! Thanks. Yes, that's what attracted me to it. After doing a 5-day split for two years I thought it might be fun to try something new (while still sticking to all the main compound moves because...because). It will definitely be a hit to see the weight and reps go down. That'll be sad.
I like it because of the change too. I added a few things from strong curves onto it and now it feels like the perfect mix. Weight/reps have been going up...up...up for me since I've started it. I'm actually surprised that Ive been able to do as much as I've done. But now with the upcoming cut all I can think is...this is going to come to a screeching halt real fast.... Keeping the weight up makes sense though.
Thanks. I'll message you-I'm curious to know what you added in.1 -
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Hi! Thanks. Yes, that's what attracted me to it. After doing a 5-day split for two years I thought it might be fun to try something new (while still sticking to all the main compound moves because...because). It will definitely be a hit to see the weight and reps go down. That'll be sad.
I like it because of the change too. I added a few things from strong curves onto it and now it feels like the perfect mix. Weight/reps have been going up...up...up for me since I've started it. I'm actually surprised that Ive been able to do as much as I've done. But now with the upcoming cut all I can think is...this is going to come to a screeching halt real fast.... Keeping the weight up makes sense though.
Kind of ironic to me that I find the best fat loss information in the bulking forums.....
Here's a link to his diet philosophy:
http://www.acaloriecounter.com/diet/the-best-fat-loss-diet-plan/
Again, just a straightforward, no bs approach. The one other big takeaway to me in addition to maintaining "strength on the bar" was to make sure you continue to consume enough, of not a little more, protein while in a deficit.
I've lost a fair amount of weight in the last couple of years, but this will be my first real "cut" if that makes any sense.
I added and adjusted some elements of the program as well. A bit more core and stability work to compensate for a tweaky back and more cardio at my dog's insistence.2
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