Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
Replies
-
Day 12 - 149.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
Kinda different because I'm female and hormones play a larger part in the whole water retention thing but I have maintained the same weight for 7 days now. Literally the exact same weight (which even for me is quite unusual) yet my deficit is the same as it has been for several weeks. And for me, there's very little correlation between what I eat and immediate effect on the scale. There are small trends but really I just have to trust the scale will come right whenever it feels like it (other than once a month like clockwork across three days I know when the scale will definitely show a low) otherwise no idea.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I am focusing on BMR because it is the only consistency. After that, TDEE could be anywhere from BMR up to 20K or more.
Do we have exercise tracking from Wittrock? If not, then we are assuming. My assumption is more conservative than yours coming from someone who maintains at about 1,800 before exercise also and is almost identical in size, though these are all assumptions and nothing more from both of us.
Dude, I am not sure why this is hard to understand. You have significantly less muscle than this guy. So it's not identical. Whats also not identical is this guy is active. BMR is not the thing you want compare. It's TDEE. If you want to compare your TDEE without exercise, there are a few threads with 100lb women (who don't exercise) that are at the same level in the gaining weight section. So be honest with yourself so we can move on... but you are no where near as fit as Wittrock. You do NOT have his body composition, nor his activity level. Comparing yourself, a person who is not 5% body fat, nor works out as much, is dumb.
We really can't compare Wittrock's TDEE because we do not know what it is. We can get a pretty accurate estimate of his BMR, though. Some on this debate argue he started with an incorrect estimate of 2K TDEE based on the notion that it isn't possible. As long as BMR is below what he is calculating for TDEE, then it is possible. THAT is why BMR is relevant. As to what his actual TDEE is? Many on this thread are arguing that he is wrong with 2,000; but only because it doesn't sound right to them. Does anyone have any actual evidence to determine his true TDEE? If not, then a number that fits within the possible range (2K) provided by the person who knows best what his daily activity looks like makes a lot of sense.
As to the similarities and differences based on best available information:
Witrock Me
Male Male
5'7" 5'7"
148.1 lbs. 155 lbs.
5% BF 13% BF
7.4 lb. fat 20.2 lb. fat
140.6 lbm 134.9 lbm
Wittrock has about 6 lbs. more lean mass than me and about 13 lbs. less fat.
Is there anybody on this thread with closer stats to Wittrock? I'm pretty sure I'm the closest here, yet people keep wanting to negate my similarities by arguing that various women with less weight and height have similar TDEE's as though they are somehow more comparable to Wittrock. The only conclusion I can reasonably draw from those circumstances is that we are all fairly close regardless of gender within a certain weight range and the most noticeable difference is activity.0 -
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
I just saw the peppy music of the intro as they walk through the zoo all smiles. I smirked and wondered how long that lasted with a sick kid that young. Or even how long it would last with a "well" kid that long. And then proceeded to choke on my coffee laughing when he comes back on with that look on his face like he'd just been tortured. Kids are awesome like that. Wait until you have more kiddos, dude.
4 -
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL 
JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.0 -
baconslave wrote: »Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
I just saw the peppy music of the intro as they walk through the zoo all smiles. I smirked and wondered how long that lasted with a sick kid that young. Or even how long it would last with a "well" kid that long. And then proceeded to choke on my coffee laughing when he comes back on with that look on his face like he'd just been tortured. Kids are awesome like that. Wait until you have more kiddos, dude.
Ha! I thought the same thing. He had a "sunshine and roses" attitude at first while filming animals, and I started thinking "I bet he's not filming the (sick) kids because they are getting antsy". LOL Boom.
IMO, the zoo is not for kids until they are toddlers, and then you better have your patience with you while you try to keep them near you in a busy public place. I barely remember seeing the animals when I had three kids under age 5. It was just kid watching, with your neck set to swivel.4 -
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.
You would think glycogen depletion and lower calories would improve my weight loss. But I guess the additional stress is causing water retention. Either way, even with a bit of going over, I am losing about .8 to 1 lb per week. So I am cool with dealing with the crap of eating low carb 3 days a week.
ps- his fear mongering of carbs makes me sad. I love how it always carbs fault even though the healthiest places in the world are carb based. It's much better to suggest that carbs are at fault instead of lack of knowledge and personal accountability.4 -
Who are his sponsors?0
-
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.
You would think glycogen depletion and lower calories would improve my weight loss. But I guess the additional stress is causing water retention. Either way, even with a bit of going over, I am losing about .8 to 1 lb per week. So I am cool with dealing with the crap of eating low carb 3 days a week.
ps- his fear mongering of carbs makes me sad. I love how it always carbs fault even though the healthiest places in the world are carb based. It's much better to suggest that carbs are at fault instead of lack of knowledge and personal accountability.
Yeah. He really generalizes it to everybody a bit too much. For some of us, he's bang on. Others? Not as much.leanjogreen18 wrote: »Who are his sponsors?
I think its EAS and bodybuilding.com0 -
Day 13 - 147 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FRGG6GaL6Tw
He is sick and sounds terrible. Don't know how that affects things.
He also was high in carbs today. 90 something total carbs. Probably still mildly ketogenic.
He had a nice rant in defence of jimmy Moore. Well said.1 -
Day 14 -147.6 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZPVQ5_qp8
He ate his last 2500 or so calories around dinner, otherwise nothing unusual. He is fighting off his cold but still hit the gym.1 -
Day 14 -147.6 lbshttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZPVQ5_qp8
He ate his last 2500 or so calories around dinner, otherwise nothing unusual. He is fighting off his cold but still hit the gym.
Of course he did. Contrary to popular "wisdom", one does not earn and maintain that kind of physique by taking days off for every sniffle that comes your way. 2 -
Day 15 - 147 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdZxPpTAiQc
He was back to his old positive self today. I enjoy this stuff. Avoiding the haters and striving to reach your own potential. Good stuff. A bit cheesy, but good stuff.
Speaking of cheese, he finally ate a small chunk today. Lol. Today his diet looked a bit more like a typical keto diet. Nuts, a roast with cabbage and carrots and BPC.... Although his BPC puts my tablespoon of coconut cream, with half a teaspoon of coconut oil, to shame.
Those ketoshakes he drinks... They may be a convenient way to get in more calories but it isn't the norm among low carbers. Most appear to prefer to eat their calories. Bacon and eggs instead of a morning shake.2 -
Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:0
-
Christine_72 wrote: »Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:
It sounds like he is planning to vlog more often now. I might actually watch him if he continues. I generally skip vlogs because they are such a time suck. I can get the same information in a minute of reading as I can get from watching a 15 minute video. Usually.
1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:
It sounds like he is planning to vlog more often now. I might actually watch him if he continues. I generally skip vlogs because they are such a time suck. I can get the same information in a minute of reading as I can get from watching a 15 minute video. Usually.
Tell me about it. I dedicate a lot of time in Layne Nortons vlogs. But he is one of the few i put a lot of time into. He is actually educated in the field, has a big client base and has actually competed in both body building and power lifting. Something very few scientists and bloggers can say.0 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.2 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).1 -
I'm going to guess the weight loss is coming from an understatement of his TDEE combined with illness, even if was brief. I always lose more than expected when I'm sick and I doubt I'm the only one.
ETA: It's been interesting to follow, though!0 -
Day 16 - 145.4 lbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aUaesp5llI
He's feeling better. His day had good meals that looked like what I would call typical keto fare. And he talked abs for a while.
Weight was at an all time low of 145.4 (from 148.2) but I wouldn't be surprised if it is from his cold. I imagine he'll bounce back up pretty soon.
I doubt his losses are from not meeting his TDEE. He seemed to really be striggling to get in those calories at first. I think he does eat a surprisely small amount for a guy of his stats. I don't know if it was actually 2000 kcal, but I would confidently guess it is under 3000.1 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).
Thanks for the study. I found table 3 interesting. The insulin circulating level was different between the lean and the obese, and it varied it between overfeeding glucose or sucrose. The overweight people had higher insulin (and lower BG) for the overfeed on fructose as opposed to the lean who were higher in insulin on the glucose over feed (and lower n BG too).
I agree that its application to this is probably limited, unless you assume that because de novo lipogenesis increases as carb level rises, it falls as carb levels fall. This only works if you assume DNL is related to carb levels and not simply a hypercaloric diet.
"As might be expected, there was a highly significant positive
relation between carbohydrate intake and the amount of de novo
lipogenesis measured in the pooled subjects.
The more carbohydrate supplied in the diet, the greater the
response of de novo lipogenesis, regardless of subject type. In
contrast with the relation between de novo lipogenesis and fat oxi-
dation, the amount of de novo lipogenesis increased significantly
with increasing carbohydrate oxidation, with 41% of
the variation in de novo lipogenesis due to variation in carbohy-
drate oxidation. De novo lipogenesis was significantly positively
related to carbohydrate balance in the pooled analysis (Figure 2).
There was also a significant positive correlation
between de novo lipogenesis and carbohydrate intake. Those subjects fed
the greatest amounts of dietary carbohydrate had the highest
amount of carbohydrate oxidation, were in the highest positive
carbohydrate imbalance, and had the highest amount of de novo
lipogenesis."
I do think insulin is fat sparing, as I understand it. I could be wong. From what I understand, higher insulin means less fat oxidation. It makes you hold onto the fat that is there. Not completely. I know sparing does not mea stop. It appears to slow it down.
... I need to read more. I don't have a full grasp on this stuff. An understatement.1 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).
Thanks for the study. I found table 3 interesting. The insulin circulating level was different between the lean and the obese, and it varied it between overfeeding glucose or sucrose. The overweight people had higher insulin (and lower BG) for the overfeed on fructose as opposed to the lean who were higher in insulin on the glucose over feed (and lower n BG too).
I agree that its application to this is probably limited, unless you assume that because de novo lipogenesis increases as carb level rises, it falls as carb levels fall. This only works if you assume DNL is related to carb levels and not simply a hypercaloric diet.
"As might be expected, there was a highly significant positive
relation between carbohydrate intake and the amount of de novo
lipogenesis measured in the pooled subjects.
The more carbohydrate supplied in the diet, the greater the
response of de novo lipogenesis, regardless of subject type. In
contrast with the relation between de novo lipogenesis and fat oxi-
dation, the amount of de novo lipogenesis increased significantly
with increasing carbohydrate oxidation, with 41% of
the variation in de novo lipogenesis due to variation in carbohy-
drate oxidation. De novo lipogenesis was significantly positively
related to carbohydrate balance in the pooled analysis (Figure 2).
There was also a significant positive correlation
between de novo lipogenesis and carbohydrate intake. Those subjects fed
the greatest amounts of dietary carbohydrate had the highest
amount of carbohydrate oxidation, were in the highest positive
carbohydrate imbalance, and had the highest amount of de novo
lipogenesis."
I do think insulin is fat sparing, as I understand it. I could be wong. From what I understand, higher insulin means less fat oxidation. It makes you hold onto the fat that is there. Not completely. I know sparing does not mea stop. It appears to slow it down.
... I need to read more. I don't have a full grasp on this stuff. An understatement.
All food would be fat sparring because all macronutrients inhibit lipolysis through slightly different mechanism (and to be perfectly honest, I don't even think fat-sparring is a real thing). High amounts of carbs would suppress fat oxidation in response to glycogen storage and increased carbohydrate oxidation. When you eat carbs, there really is 3 things that must occur; store as glycogen, utilize for immediate energy through CHO oxidation or store as fat (latter being less prevalent). While that occurs, it suppresses fat oxidation. If you eat less carbs, CHO oxidation will decrease, and fat oxidation will increase. That is due to the body storing more fatty acids. In all reality, substrate utilization for the person who isn't an endurance athlete means nothing. Only when you start doing endurance work (2+ hrs a day) does it matter. And looking at athletes, it's largely in favor of carbs over fat.0 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.
He probably is gaining weight. 2 weeks in to a ketogenic diet I'd expect a guy at his weight to have lost at least 3-4 pounds of water weight due to glyogen depletion, plus maybe another pound of food weight (due to the lower ash/fiber content of a ketogenic diet). We'll see what happens when he starts eating carbs again. Typically a weight regain of ~4% of body weight is seen.
1 -
wackyfunster wrote: »I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.
He probably is gaining weight. 2 weeks in to a ketogenic diet I'd expect a guy at his weight to have lost at least 3-4 pounds of water weight due to glyogen depletion, plus maybe another pound of food weight (due to the lower ash/fiber content of a ketogenic diet). We'll see what happens when he starts eating carbs again. Typically a weight regain of ~4% of body weight is seen.
Wittrock was alrady keto adapted. The bigger argument is he didn't baseline EE needs prior to the experiment and suggested that he probably maintains around 2K.3 -
I believe he's been keto for at least a year so the initial "glycogen depletion" has long since passed. It would be interesting though to see if he would try a high carb diet. On one hand I guess he would not since his business is built around keto but on the other hand he might to prove a weight gain point.2
-
I have obviously not been following this closely enough
0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »
We really can't compare Wittrock's TDEE because we do not know what it is. We can get a pretty accurate estimate of his BMR, though. Some on this debate argue he started with an incorrect estimate of 2K TDEE based on the notion that it isn't possible. As long as BMR is below what he is calculating for TDEE, then it is possible. THAT is why BMR is relevant. As to what his actual TDEE is? Many on this thread are arguing that he is wrong with 2,000; but only because it doesn't sound right to them. Does anyone have any actual evidence to determine his true TDEE? If not, then a number that fits within the possible range (2K) provided by the person who knows best what his daily activity looks like makes a lot of sense.
As to the similarities and differences based on best available information:
Witrock Me
Male Male
5'7" 5'7"
148.1 lbs. 155 lbs.
5% BF 13% BF
7.4 lb. fat 20.2 lb. fat
140.6 lbm 134.9 lbm
Wittrock has about 6 lbs. more lean mass than me and about 13 lbs. less fat.
Is there anybody on this thread with closer stats to Wittrock? I'm pretty sure I'm the closest here, yet people keep wanting to negate my similarities by arguing that various women with less weight and height have similar TDEE's as though they are somehow more comparable to Wittrock.
I'm taller fatter and heavier but may come out about the same LBM as him, maybe similar to yourself. I'm 56 though so metabolic rate is likely a bit lower. A couple of years ago it was 1600 measured, at the time 17% below the lab's standard prediciotn for my stats.
I'm a lot less strong and fit, and less "supplemented". His TDEE is hard to gauge, anyone seen him sweating ? The potential energy added to a 200 lb weight lifted 6' is what, a couple of calories each time ? Shame he didn't do a deal with Fitbit or someone to get a number on his activity.
0 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
"Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects"
Am J Clin Nutr 1973 26: 2 197-204 by Kasper, Thiel and Ehl. Overfeeding with corn oil didn't produce weight gain in some subjects and other weird stuff that takes a bit of disentangling. Is the food choices made by Wittrock an issue ?
0 -
Day 17 - 147.2 lbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scm10QwItAA
Higher protein day today - 190 something grams or about 20%. He ate chicken so he blamed that on his higher than typical protein. Fat was 75% at 333 g, I believe.1 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
"Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects"
Am J Clin Nutr 1973 26: 2 197-204 by Kasper, Thiel and Ehl. Overfeeding with corn oil didn't produce weight gain in some subjects and other weird stuff that takes a bit of disentangling. Is the food choices made by Wittrock an issue ?
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/26/2/197.abstract
Corn oil... Huh. Interesting - thanks!1
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions