"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
jdb3388
Posts: 239 Member
People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
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Do you feel better getting that out?
I'm going to keep having my daily chocolate, thank you. Learning portion control, calorie banking, and that Domino's pizza isn't worth the calories is part of learning how to live life at a lower weight. If the advice isn't helpful to you because you inevitably binge, it's because it's bad advice FOR YOU. Some people can moderate, others do better if they abstain.197 -
As someone currently losing weight, your advice is not helpful to me. The idea of eating the same foods I like and will be eating in the future, but just in smaller quantities than I was used to, is working just fine for me. This includes a small bag of potato chips instead of half a family sized bag.
So sorry you have a different opinion, but it is working for me and I'm not sure why you think it is bad advice?130 -
Context is everything.37
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Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I can fit 1/2 of a large, thin crust ham and pineapple pizza into my daily calories relatively easily, so why shouldn't I? I can assure you I'm not starving to death! And I'm not spending the rest of the day nibbling on celery and carrot sticks to do it either.62
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annacole94 wrote: »Do you feel better getting that out?
I'm going to keep having my daily chocolate, thank you. Learning portion control, calorie banking, and that Domino's pizza isn't worth the calories is part of learning how to live life at a lower weight. If the advice isn't helpful to you because you inevitably binge, it's because it's bad advice FOR YOU. Some people can moderate, others do better if they abstain.
"Dominoes pizza isn't worth the calories" is a great little piece of wisdom, in a general way of course. It's something I think about on a regular basis when it comes to eating. Is this worth XXX calories and is it worth missing out on this or that that I could have instead? Is there a better option for me? Can I make this better/healthier myself? Is there an alternative ill enjoy almost as much but which better fits my overall strategy? I know lots of people don't have to have that mindset but it's really helped me get the crazy overeating days out of my system.57 -
I think they say that for satiety, happiness and not feeling deprived reasons. Zero to do with health and nutrition, which is a whole other subject.20
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Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
I have been trying, fruitlessly, to get my sister-in-law to stop with the ascetic diets where she cuts out all the foods she likes -- she's decided to "give up carbs" for Lent, for instance. Sure, she loses weight, but only to pack it all right back on when she's done. Why? Her diets do not allow her to develop sustainable habits. Once she goes back to eating her favorite foods, she also goes back to eating her old portion sizes. No surprise there.59 -
I think the great thing about being able to eat whatever you want as long as it fits the calories is that there is absolutely no deprivation. For me, so often I would cut all the things out I like and would go crazy and give up after 2-4 weeks because I was miserable. After finding CICO it allows me to choose what more calorically dense foods I think it's worth using calories on and what foods aren't worth it. I CAN eat whatever I want (so freeing) but I choose to eat mostly calorically dilute and fit in the few things that are worth the calories for me. Telling me I CANT have something is the quickest way to get my inner fat girl to stomp around, throw a fit, and quit;)56
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Personally I would choose yummy home made delicious meals over pizza /burgers or whatever fast food at time so no, it's no hardship to eat great, filling foods ..but however for those who do love all that what we're saying is you don't need to cut it out, have some of course, just not every day if you want to feel full/satieted.
Expand the taste buds, try new foods...and ultimately eat less than you burn to lose. In other words CICO.
I've been slim for 4 years now, the fat me has gone for good
it's worth making changes to become healthier /fitter 
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It all depends on "whatever you want" means to you.
I love chocolate. I "need" chocolate in my life. I can lose weight and still eat chocolate. If I have the dark stuff (70%+) from a quality brand, I can portion control it no problem. 120 calories of dark chocolate fits into my calories just fine. If I'm silly enough to grab cheap milk chocolate, it's not satisfying and that doesn't work. On the odd occasion when I make that mistake, I wind up eating a lot more.
So, I can eat "whatever I want" (the chocolate) as long as I'm smart about it.
Same thing applies to pizza. We quite regularly have thin crust pizza and salad for dinner, and I can have it come in under 500 calories as a perfectly satisfying meal. But if we get take-out and get those breadsticks along with the pizza, I could eat 1000 calories and still be hungry.
So, I can have pizza and lose weight. I just can't have pizza + breadsticks + cookies. Or if I do, it has to be rarely and I can expect it to be a maintenance day at best.
Edited to note that the specifics vary from person to person.45 -
People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Feel free to point out any thread(s) where anybody has said that it's a good idea to eat junk/fast food all the time, or even as a majority of one's diet. Because I've seen a lot of "clean eaters" make that false assertion, but I have yet to see one successfully quote anybody who knows what they're talking about who espouses such a diet.
Context and dosage are important concepts. It's not difficult for many people to fit in indulgences (in moderation, which is the key point) while still staying within their calorie goals and getting adequate macro/micronutrients.
[ETA:] As to claiming "the advice isn't helpful in practice" - I've lost over 60 pounds, about 15% of my bodyfat and greatly improved my health markers. I'm at a healthy BMI (24) and BF% (around 15%), surpassed my goal weight and am now just working on losing maybe another 5-10 pounds purely for vanity. At various times I've eaten (and still do eat - in moderation) Mexican food, pizza, burgers/fries, candy bars, beer, pies/cakes, nachos, ice cream, donuts, potato chips, all-you-can-eat Chinese buffets and sushi bars, etc. I've rarely gone hungry and am very satisfied with both my diet and the results. Weight loss hasn't been difficult and I've actually enjoyed the whole experience. So my n=1 is that the advice is plenty helpful in practice.38 -
I can fit 1/2 of a large, thin crust ham and pineapple pizza into my daily calories relatively easily, so why shouldn't I? I can assure you I'm not starving to death! And I'm not spending the rest of the day nibbling on celery and carrot sticks to do it either.
I do this every couple of weeks. Go to the local pub with my Dad and we each order a thin crust pepperoni pizza and a beer. We both eat half the pizza and take half home. Fits in my calories and it is time spent with my dad. Totally worth it.58 -
Actually, to be honest, learning that I could have that junk food is what freed me (personally) from the notion that losing weight had to suck. If I hadn't read that here on MFP, I may still be trying to restrict myself unnecessarily and frustrate myself because my husband and my kids still would eat that stuff and I would be miserable.
No, it's not for everyone. But it excellent advice for some people.
As a child, I was not allowed any sweets. The day after Halloween, my parents (mostly my mom, dad was usually away on his military business) would throw away the candy we trick-or-treated for. We had birthday cakes, but they were thrown out right away. Our lunches were always packed with "healthy" food (which I now appreciate) but I would always sneak money to buy school lunches on my own. We had carob, date sugar, and goat's milk in the house (that last one is because of an allergy in the house) and I resented them for it. They restricted me, and I felt the only way to have what I wanted was hide it, or eat it as fast as I can before it could be taken away, and I learned how to lie about it. This lead to binging. Perhaps not enough to be classified as a disorder, but I never sought help for it, so I don't know.
I learned as an adult that restriction DOES NOT WORK for me. It took a long time and many years of trial and error, but I had to learn it. Knowing that I can have a chocolate when I want it, or get a fast food meal, or pizza at a party and still lose weight has been my saving grace. What I had to learn was moderation. That stuff is always going to be around in my every day life, and I can't say no all the time. I needed to learn when it was OK to say yes, and how it made me feel afterwards. I'm still 50lbs away from my goal, but I'm almost 40lbs lower than my highest a few years ago. I'm doing this as slow as mud, but I'm doing it the way that makes me happy
So, I hope people continue to talk about what worked for them. Even if it is something that won't work for me, it's still great advice from someone who has been there, and everyone is different. There may be other people just starting that it's helpful advice for and it changes their mind about what the best way is to help themselves.
Thanks to everyone who continues to post on here, it's truly inspirational!84 -
I do see the OP's point in that warning / reminding people that some foods are so calorie-dense that they can "crowd out" more filling options, depending on calorie limits, deficit, exercise etc. To stay within my calories for the day there are some foods I just can't eat in any quantity, without calorie banking. And if I don't eat them in quantity, I get hungry, because they aren't very filling. Having said that, I usually find versions of that food that is less caloric, like oven-baked steak fries with salt/pepper/garlic/parmesan seasoning, rather than MickeyD's fries. The problem with the argument is that we all have different caloric requirements, so it is easier for some people to do than for others.25
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I mostly agree with you. I do think the whole "eat whatever you want, as long as you don't exceed calories" advice is pretty helpful, though, in not allowing yourself to get derailed after a single choice. For example, if you go out and have a really unhealthy, cholesterol laden meal with sugar and little nutritional value. In the past, before I started logging, I'd have a meal like this and hate myself and give up. Now that I log, I see a meal like that may have taken me over 250 calories for what I had allotted, but I can still make up for it by having a healthy/lean dinner, and get right back on track tomorrow. Basically, it gives me some leeway in allowing life and temptations to happen without "giving in."
Basically, I think the "eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories" is helpful when it comes to single meals.
In the big picture, though, it's much, much easier to eat within your calories if you're eating healthy food. You're fuller, and satisfied, and have energy without sugar drops. Even though counting calories is simple, I sometimes wonder if instead I decided to log to get at least 25 grams of fiber per day that I'd still end up staying within my calorie count without trying. From looking at my log, it definitely appears that eating more fiber makes it easier to stay within my limit.
Weight loss and wellness are not the same thing, but they definitely intersect, and each makes the other easier.21 -
Good luck on your journey OP.
You may discover that the initial enthusiasm wanes after a time and that's when adherence becomes the #1 success factor. For some people that will mean having some foods they just plain enjoy - not exclusively, just some of the time.
There isn't a one size fits all approach so what you find unhelpful or triggers cravings may be exactly what someone else needs to hear.38 -
I think you may be misunderstanding the concept. This thread is very helpful for putting it into perspective: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p1
The basic concept of weight loss is to consume less calories than you expend. It is then at the individual's discretion how they can best practice this. If you find yourself unable to successfully moderate certain foods, then avoidance is probably in your best interest until you have a better handle on it. I lost my first 50 lbs on a very strict low carb, high protein diet and I lost the last 70 lbs following a less strict, more enjoyable flexible dieting method (which I have now maintained for 3 years). I think I may be the type of person you are referencing in your last sentence. I wish I could say I don't remember what it is like to live as a morbidly obese person, but that is not something easily forgotten. You can take or leave my or anyone else's advice but I do speak from experience and learning from many missteps and failed attempts.31 -
People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Part of learning about CICO, and enjoying foods in moderation includes, as others said, prioritizing and understanding what is important for the individual. You ascertain if a person eats only one slice of pizza, they will be starving, and will cave and eat more later, thus putting you over your calories. Many people who have been successful with moderation have learned over time that being overly restrictive, and cutting out all the foods they love, is what results in them caving and going overboard on foods they miss.
Another important point to learn during this process is how to build a balanced diet that provides (within an appropriate calorie amount): nutrition (both macro and micro nutrients), satiety (fills you up) and enjoyment (keeps the process enjoyable so you can sustain it for the long run). I regularly eat pizza with my family, which includes 2 slices of pizza and a salad. That is an appropriate amount of food, provides nutrition, satiety, and enjoyment. I don't know about Loco Rice and don't usually crave chili cheese fries - but there are plenty of foods that I do crave, that I work into my regular diet.
Lastly, what people who successfully practice moderation do, and mean when they say "you can eat anything you want as long as you fit it into your calories" is that you may not be able to eat it every single day, or in the vast quantities that you previously did - but that you can still enjoy those foods in those appropriate portion sizes and not HAVE to restrict them from your diet.
There are people who do better with abstaining from certain foods, especially trigger foods, and that's great. But to tell people that they must cut out the foods they love, or that the advice that you can still enjoy those foods is garbage, is exactly the kind of unnecessary restriction that tends to proliferate a yoyo dieting mentality. There are countless people on these boards who believe that they must be miserable in order to be successful. That if they aren't starving, or eating only certain "healthy" foods, they won't reach their goals. Many of those people give up before they reach the finish line, many more, never even start.
Understanding that you don't HAVE to give up the foods you love is empowering for so many people, and is what has enabled many of us to finally find long term success rather than bouncing from restriction to indulgence and back again.
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I'm confused here... if I "eat whatever I want" but stay under my daily allowance, I won't lose weight? So the science is bad? Or is the science just bad for people who don't actually stick to the plan?16
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Whatever floats your boat Op meanwhile I'm going to continue to eat my chocolate bars, ice cream, and small slices of cake, and I'm also going to get an ice cream bowl from menchies. Everything can be eaten in moderation for me it's all about portion size.19
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I can but agree with Tacklewasher here. I spent years dieting unsuccessfully because carrots fundamentally did nothing when what I was craving was cheese. Now I have a snack size portion of cheese, eat it mindfully and really savour it, and there's no guilt, no shame, and no real feeling of deprivation.
My key understanding has been the extent to which hunger is psychological. If I expect to feel hungry, I'll feel hungry. And if I eat foods that should satisfy my body but don't satisfy my mind, I'll DEFINITELY feel hungry!
So yeah, I'll have one slice of pizza, or one chocolate, or one macaroon and store the rest for later. It turns out it's not difficult at all. And I'm happier, and not particularly hungry, and learning good habits for when I near a weight I'm happy with. And also, seven and a half stone lighter...29 -
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I don't deprive myself of anything. I just stay in my calorie allowance. I am now 138 at 5'9".13
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You need to learn what works for you but you need to remember it must be sustainable.
Maybe just focus on being comfortable with smaller portions for now without bothering to count calories or anything? Learn to incorporate both 'light calorie' food with whatever food you like so you can have your "junk food" while feeling full? Have less satisfying meals and keep "junk food" as snacks? Look at caloric intake over a week, two weeks, even a month instead of a day? As long as you have an average deficit, you're at a deficit. Maybe exercise a bit so you can have a bit more calories while sticking to your goal.
I'm still a fat person, living as a fat person. I've got a long way to go. The only times it's hard to stick to my calories are when I am eating out, and cannot plan ahead (i.e. when I cannot look up the nutritional information beforehand). Yeah, I'm probably going over my calories some then since it'll vary, but I have a general idea, and leave enough wiggle room. I also look at calories over time, not just per day, so it's fine to go over every now, and then. I just eat a little less the days before and/or after.
If I'm at home, I don't find it hard to stick to it. The food I eat is all processed/frozen "junk". I've just learnt better portion control. I pack little 100-calorie baggies of chips, nuts, etc. beforehand, so I can just grab one when I feel like. I add more vegetables to my meals since the fibre helps, and it pads out the meals some. I still eat what I enjoy, I've just changed how, and how much.
Some times I want more food/snacks, but I give it a bit. Usually after about 10-15 minutes, I find I don't. And honestly, I've been surprised by how much I can eat while eating whatever I want, and sticking to my goal.
Today's lunch was a slice of pizza, 3 honey BBQ wings, and some carrots. I didn't feel starved, I didn't feel like that wasn't a meal. I felt content with that. I had food I liked, in quantities that were satisfying to me.
That said, there are some foods that I cannot have because I will binge. I haven't learnt to control that yet. Mind you, it's only one type of food (candy coated nuts) that I didn't eat often so it's not a big deal.
It's about figuring out how to make it work for you, and possibly making the changes a little at a time. Any change towards reducing your caloric intake is a good one.11 -
Detritus_1965 wrote: »
LOL.13 -
I don't eat anywhere near "clean" and I'm never starving. Down 93 lbs... oh? And I'm healthy as *kitten*. Latest physical lab results came back all great. 23
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PIZZA FRIDAYS BABY!
down just shy of 60 pounds and still losing. I enjoy a couple slices every Friday without fail and it hasn't stopped me. and for the record I'm not one of those who forgot what its like to be fat cause I still am, but I am one of those that realized that this if for life and not temporary and life has room for pizza, burgers, ice cream etc.21
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