"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
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1) Yes, there clearly are people who are afflicted with various eating disorders.
2) Yes, there clearly are stupid people with no common sense who do stupid things in spite of the fact that it's a terrible idea.
Neither of the above would be paying the least bit of attention to logical common sense advice, so they're irrelevant to this thread (and the entire topic in general).
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10529957/gallon-of-water-a-day#latest
I think your response was perfect. Someone was confused, and you pointed them to good information. Yes, it's a tired old health rumor that people with common sense should ignore, but people are still falling for it. I'm glad you decided to give this person this information.
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1) Yes, there clearly are people who are afflicted with various eating disorders.
2) Yes, there clearly are stupid people with no common sense who do stupid things in spite of the fact that it's a terrible idea.
Neither of the above would be paying the least bit of attention to logical common sense advice, so they're irrelevant to this thread (and the entire topic in general).
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10529957/gallon-of-water-a-day#latest
I think your response was perfect. Someone was confused, and you pointed them to good information. Yes, it's a tired old health rumor that people with common sense should ignore, but people are still falling for it. I'm glad you decided to give this person this information.
Funnily enough, as Diannethegeek has said up-thread, people often get called meanies or smartasses when they just drop a link into a thread like that. It's almost like newbies all have different, individual expectations of how they ought to be approached11 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »Funnily enough, as Diannethegeek has said up-thread, people often get called meanies or smartasses when they just drop a link into a thread like that. It's almost like newbies all have different, individual expectations of how they ought to be approached
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Alatariel75 wrote: »1) Yes, there clearly are people who are afflicted with various eating disorders.
2) Yes, there clearly are stupid people with no common sense who do stupid things in spite of the fact that it's a terrible idea.
Neither of the above would be paying the least bit of attention to logical common sense advice, so they're irrelevant to this thread (and the entire topic in general).
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10529957/gallon-of-water-a-day#latest
I think your response was perfect. Someone was confused, and you pointed them to good information. Yes, it's a tired old health rumor that people with common sense should ignore, but people are still falling for it. I'm glad you decided to give this person this information.
Funnily enough, as Diannethegeek has said up-thread, people often get called meanies or smartasses when they just drop a link into a thread like that. It's almost like newbies all have different, individual expectations of how they ought to be approached
^ Truth. I've been called a meanie several times for posting helpful links in threads. Some people don't like having to go do the research themselves, they just want to be spoon-fed. Others aren't really looking for answers, they're just looking for affirmation of their own ideas and they get nasty when they don't hear what they want to hear (e.g. many detox/cleanse, fad diet, fat burner, MLM threads).12 -
Too busy to write a prolonged post, but meh.. There are various forms of moderation, whether you save up calories for a while to have a big meal of something that only scratches the itch in certain quantities or budget for a small random serving of something that feels adequate to you is all personal strategy and depends on the person and situation.
Contrary to popular belief, the goal is to make dieting as sustainable as possible accounting for both hunger and desires. Stuffing as many high calorie foods as possible into your tiny calorie budget is not the goal as you might have been lead to believe. Long time dieters will learn with time and experience what is worth the calories always, sometimes, or rarely and will acquire the skill of judging each food's worthiness of the spent calories in the context of several factors,. One food could be worth it one day but not another day.
Sweeping rigid generalizations often have little practical applicability or staying power.14 -
prattiger65 wrote: »andrewq6100 wrote: »just no twinkie diets please....
I used to be a guy that was "omg no junk (and let me rephrase JUNK for some people)) no high carb empty calorie foods like CANDY BARS GUMMY WORMS ICE CREAMS MCDONALDS once in a while or your diet is ruined" but I tried that and had what is called, for druggies..a RELAPSE...my body was at a point where it felt the need to GAIN the weight back I had lost so in turn I BINGED, because I cut out foods my body was USED to and ENJOYED. Now, even though it's in HEAVY moderation, I do enjoy those things but alas they are not a staple for my weight loss. I would never attribute my personal weight loss to the fact that "I can eat anything as long as i'm in a deficit" because for me that was simply not true. If I had eaten a sweet or candy or cake etc during my initial weight loss even IN a deficit it would for some reason turn on a switch and make me go even harder with the sweets junk etc and would essentially push me OVER my limit. Once I was able to master my mental practice of eating habits then I was able to fit in foods I enjoyed, but until then I had to enact discipline as many do to get it started.
Idc how many people say "well i didn't have to" thats fine because every human is different. But I know a lot of people i've worked with (and no i'm no where NEAR a PT or nutritionist) but they get the FASTEST results and most satisfactory results FROM eating "CLEAN AKA Not trying to worry if a candy bar cake mcdonalds will FIT in their macros". What I mean is that a lot of people doing weight loss PREFER to cut the junk out not because its BAD for them but because its just not needed for their specific goals.
Sure a treat is nice every once in a while but if Person A) want's to get shredded for a competition in 12 weeks and has never done anything in his life remotely close to this, then most likely he is NOT going to want to have anything to do with sweets and mcdonalds because it might SABATOGE his process. I'm not saying it WILL i'm saying from a mental standpoint it could. Again every person is different but I will always point back to this; flexibile dieting is KEY but eating like POOP is not. You can be in a deficit all you want while eating cakes if that's what your into, but some people, like me, prefer to just cut it out because to us, calories in vs calories out counts for a lot more than just a number and a food type.
Sorry, but this is full of nope. Common MFP fallacy, "everyone is different". Nope, everyone must abide by the laws of physics. You will lose weight in a calorie deficit no matter what you eat. My experience here on MFP for the last three years is exactly opposite of what you say, many many more people succeed by NOT restricting as opposed to those who cut out foods or food groups. It's at least 10-1, probably higher. There are so many straw men in this post it needs a warning label as a fire hazard.
Well as far as everyone is different..we are, physiologically yes, and as well as goal specific yes. You cannot be a 10% shredded athlete while trying to fit mcdonalds into your micro/macro plan every day. Maybe once or twice a week. As for the every day MFP FAM weight loss person then of course "calorie deficit, calories in calories out" is fine and dandy but for the small percentage of us on MFP who want to achieve that greater body composition and i'm sure there are more out there "in the bushes" and also maintain a cool 7-10% yr round, and even some who may be beginning competition prep, they and neither would their coach, recommend indulging in poop foods more often than not. If it is such a falsity than why do pro coaches exist, why is there such thing as "competition prep" and how do figure and bodybuilder pros continue to look like they do while only eating what they do? Or do they really just stuff their face constantly with junk behind the scenes and we don't see it? I'm not saying restricting or CUTTING foods for the every day joe and dane, but if your goal is THIS or THAT you eventually have to sacrifice THIS or THAT, its the law of success.. With every success comes failure, and a sacrifice and if you don't know that well then you haven't succeeded.1 -
I am fortunate to like vegetables (unfortunate that I like all food a bit too much! I used to sing with happiness when I was weaned apparently). I haven't battled bingeing completely - aa different story. l still like pizza, chocolate etc and have it nearly every day but I have a smaller portion and fill my plate sky high with vegetables these days, if I didn't my plate would be filled sky high with pizza. So I guess it is about overall deficit but some foods are more filing than others and if I open a packet of biscuits, well I'll eat the lot and I don't miss them when they are not there so I try to have healthier options, staying within my allowance. When I feel well!1
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This week I had a doughnut, fish and chips, ice cream, chocolate and guess what, I still lost! Magic.
I've cut down my breakfast and lunch so I can eat a decent portion at tea time and it works for me. Saying no and cutting stuff out isn't for me.
Pizza wise, I have half a supermarket one - you're right, the greasy takeaway version doesn't let me have enough.
Anyone who thinks "you can still eat what you want and lose weight" means no change to your intake is a bit delusional but the whole point of logging is realising what impact certain food choices make.
Oh, also I exercise.5 -
I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.
You should understand that newbies are overwhelmed with complicated advice--hence the "eat what you want within your calorie goals". They come to realize themselves, as they progress, that if they eat more protein and fruits and vetetables they can eat more. This is a step by step process. I live in Italy, where quality eating is the norm. I know alot about cooking and "healthy" eating, but it's too complicated for most people that don't have that food culture to understand. Therefore, I refrain from getting complicated. I also recommend cooking classes for people that eat fast food often because they don't know how to cook.5 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?
IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.
Seriously. I am glad I was here when people who are now banned were here and freely gave out awesome advice as blunt and direct as it could possibly be.
Me too!0 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
Okay, so help us out then. A newbie starts a thread and says "I really need to lose weight, but I really love carbs so I'm stuck! Help!!!" My response would be - Hey OP, you don't HAVE to go low carb, you just need to hit your calorie goal, you can eat whatever food you want!" This I guess is garbage incomplete advice. So could you please tell me what we are supposed to say, and keep in mind there are HUNDREDS of threads started every day.
Well, you know - you don't *have* to respond, but if you do then it's helpful to qualify your answers with something like 'you don't have to not eat anything made of carbohydrates ... losing weight depends on making sure you consume less energy than you expend even if a some of those calories come from simple and complex carbs (sugars. fruits, veggies,breads, rice etc). Are you wanting to restrict carbs because you know you tend to overeat with this kind of food? If so, can you identify why ... and would to rather limit your intake of *donuts/biscuits/whatever the kitten here* than cut it out? ... because you can still enjoy these things if you're willing and able to incorporate them in to a calorie controlled plan'
Or something.
Giving a short, vague, incomplete answer is often less helpful than not *helping* at all.
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I'm relatively new. The over all consensus that I have gathered from reading many posts (maybe I spend to much time here) is calorie in, calorie out, eat what you want within moderation, be realistic and learn what works for you along the way. Don't deprive yourself of junk just limit it and practise control and educate yourself on how to make these foods fit into your deficit. I have taken this on board and have reached my first weight loss goal in 6 weeks.27
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I'm relatively new. The over all consensus that I have gathered from reading many posts (maybe I spend to much time here) is calorie in, calorie out, eat what you want within moderation, be realistic and learn what works for you along the way. Don't deprive yourself of junk just limit it and practise control and educate yourself on how to make these foods fit into your deficit. I have taken this on board and have reached my first weight loss goal in 6 weeks.
You are doing it right! And the more you learn, the better your diet will get and the better choices you will make. If the posters who are being so obtuse actually saw what most of us really eat they would probably shut up. Over time you learn more and your habits change, slowly but surely. The subject has been studied ad nauseum and the highest success rates come from NOT restricting foods or food groups. Do people have success other wise? Of course, but statistically it's far less.
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prattiger65 wrote: »I'm relatively new. The over all consensus that I have gathered from reading many posts (maybe I spend to much time here) is calorie in, calorie out, eat what you want within moderation, be realistic and learn what works for you along the way. Don't deprive yourself of junk just limit it and practise control and educate yourself on how to make these foods fit into your deficit. I have taken this on board and have reached my first weight loss goal in 6 weeks.
You are doing it right! And the more you learn, the better your diet will get and the better choices you will make. If the posters who are being so obtuse actually saw what most of us really eat they would probably shut up. Over time you learn more and your habits change, slowly but surely. The subject has been studied ad nauseum and the highest success rates come from NOT restricting foods or food groups. Do people have success other wise? Of course, but statistically it's far less.
If I didn't have help from "veterans" I'd be doing it wrong, fail miserably and not be progressing. So thank you:-) to everyone9 -
prattiger65 wrote: »I'm relatively new. The over all consensus that I have gathered from reading many posts (maybe I spend to much time here) is calorie in, calorie out, eat what you want within moderation, be realistic and learn what works for you along the way. Don't deprive yourself of junk just limit it and practise control and educate yourself on how to make these foods fit into your deficit. I have taken this on board and have reached my first weight loss goal in 6 weeks.
You are doing it right! And the more you learn, the better your diet will get and the better choices you will make. If the posters who are being so obtuse actually saw what most of us really eat they would probably shut up. Over time you learn more and your habits change, slowly but surely. The subject has been studied ad nauseum and the highest success rates come from NOT restricting foods or food groups. Do people have success other wise? Of course, but statistically it's far less.
Which statistics?
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You guys just take every single word someone writes literally, to the t. I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.
This was, and is me
Here is the kicker. I NEVER feel full. I could eat plain microwaved chicken breast and green salad 10 times a day or I can eat a hotdog for lunch. I never feel full. One of the reasons I ended up so big. You get used to it and you learn to deal with it on bad days and if you fall off the wagon once in a while you get back up and carry on.
Right from the start my wife and I decided not to be too strict with the meal plan that we were given. When I discovered MFP it just got easier to track but we have been eating at about 1800 calories per day. We decided to "eat what we want to" because I've been on 2 weight loss journey's before that each lasted a few months and then I got bigger than I was before.
I've been doing flexible eating now for almost 4 years and lost 62kg while maintaining for a about 18 months so it must be working for me. In fact just this morning I changed our meals for Thursdays to include a burger over lunch.
So yes, you can absolutely eat whatever you want, as long as it fits your calorie and macro goals, and lose weight and do it for a very long time. And yes I went from eating 4000+calories per day straight into eating 1800 calories a day and yes after 4 years it still doesn't fill me up.
Regarding willpower, I've found that I pick up weight when I dont have the willpower to say no to extra food, even if it is healthy food.13 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »Funnily enough, as Diannethegeek has said up-thread, people often get called meanies or smartasses when they just drop a link into a thread like that. It's almost like newbies all have different, individual expectations of how they ought to be approached
You are really fixated on this concept of people being "mean" to posters (veterans and newbies), and feeling like you need to apologize for it. I'm pretty sure I can speak for @Alatariel75 @AnvilHead and @diannethegeek , we all have thick skins and don't need to be apologized to, no one thinks people were "mean" to us. We are saying that people label us as mean, if the advice is provided in a way that isn't exactly what a person was looking for. If too blunt, if there is a hint of sarcasm, if a woo based idea is called what it is, if a link is provided instead of taking the time to type out a response - as Dianne said, these are all reasons why many of us have been criticized at some point over the years. But we've grown used to it. Just wait till a good old fashioned Friday mean people thread, you can really see the piling on!
Your last sentence seems to think that there are times when some of us aren't trying to be accurate and helpful. Again, just because YOU don't like the response, the tone, etc - does not mean it isn't helpful to someone. I personally always strive for accuracy and helpfulness, but I'm a sarcastic person and I temper some humor into my responses (sometimes more successfully than others).
You've come in as the voice of all newbies coaching us on how we should be responding, and it's grown tiresome. You don't like the way I give advice, feel it's incomplete, missing a potential hidden scenario that the OP may not have disclosed, or flat out wrong? That's fine. You are free to ignore it, add to it, correct it, even report it if you feel it's in violation of community guidelines. It's a discussion board filled with a variety of users and people use different communication styles and people respond to different communication styles. There is not one perfect response to any question(although some come awfully close). There is always something that others can add which may be helpful.
So again, rather than nitpicking veterans in this thread, just stick around and find your own voice on these boards. See you out there!14 -
andrewq6100 wrote: »prattiger65 wrote: »andrewq6100 wrote: »just no twinkie diets please....
I used to be a guy that was "omg no junk (and let me rephrase JUNK for some people)) no high carb empty calorie foods like CANDY BARS GUMMY WORMS ICE CREAMS MCDONALDS once in a while or your diet is ruined" but I tried that and had what is called, for druggies..a RELAPSE...my body was at a point where it felt the need to GAIN the weight back I had lost so in turn I BINGED, because I cut out foods my body was USED to and ENJOYED. Now, even though it's in HEAVY moderation, I do enjoy those things but alas they are not a staple for my weight loss. I would never attribute my personal weight loss to the fact that "I can eat anything as long as i'm in a deficit" because for me that was simply not true. If I had eaten a sweet or candy or cake etc during my initial weight loss even IN a deficit it would for some reason turn on a switch and make me go even harder with the sweets junk etc and would essentially push me OVER my limit. Once I was able to master my mental practice of eating habits then I was able to fit in foods I enjoyed, but until then I had to enact discipline as many do to get it started.
Idc how many people say "well i didn't have to" thats fine because every human is different. But I know a lot of people i've worked with (and no i'm no where NEAR a PT or nutritionist) but they get the FASTEST results and most satisfactory results FROM eating "CLEAN AKA Not trying to worry if a candy bar cake mcdonalds will FIT in their macros". What I mean is that a lot of people doing weight loss PREFER to cut the junk out not because its BAD for them but because its just not needed for their specific goals.
Sure a treat is nice every once in a while but if Person A) want's to get shredded for a competition in 12 weeks and has never done anything in his life remotely close to this, then most likely he is NOT going to want to have anything to do with sweets and mcdonalds because it might SABATOGE his process. I'm not saying it WILL i'm saying from a mental standpoint it could. Again every person is different but I will always point back to this; flexibile dieting is KEY but eating like POOP is not. You can be in a deficit all you want while eating cakes if that's what your into, but some people, like me, prefer to just cut it out because to us, calories in vs calories out counts for a lot more than just a number and a food type.
Sorry, but this is full of nope. Common MFP fallacy, "everyone is different". Nope, everyone must abide by the laws of physics. You will lose weight in a calorie deficit no matter what you eat. My experience here on MFP for the last three years is exactly opposite of what you say, many many more people succeed by NOT restricting as opposed to those who cut out foods or food groups. It's at least 10-1, probably higher. There are so many straw men in this post it needs a warning label as a fire hazard.
Well as far as everyone is different..we are, physiologically yes, and as well as goal specific yes. You cannot be a 10% shredded athlete while trying to fit mcdonalds into your micro/macro plan every day. Maybe once or twice a week. As for the every day MFP FAM weight loss person then of course "calorie deficit, calories in calories out" is fine and dandy but for the small percentage of us on MFP who want to achieve that greater body composition and i'm sure there are more out there "in the bushes" and also maintain a cool 7-10% yr round, and even some who may be beginning competition prep, they and neither would their coach, recommend indulging in poop foods more often than not. If it is such a falsity than why do pro coaches exist, why is there such thing as "competition prep" and how do figure and bodybuilder pros continue to look like they do while only eating what they do? Or do they really just stuff their face constantly with junk behind the scenes and we don't see it? I'm not saying restricting or CUTTING foods for the every day joe and dane, but if your goal is THIS or THAT you eventually have to sacrifice THIS or THAT, its the law of success.. With every success comes failure, and a sacrifice and if you don't know that well then you haven't succeeded.
The OP was talking about obese individuals, concerned that the advice would not address their hunger issues. Also, the vast majority of users on these boards are not training for competition. Are there some elite athletes here, who need to dial in their diet and exercise in order to achieve optimal results? Absolutely. But those people are not looking for advice from the MFP community at large and not going to be confused by advice to "eat what you want within a calorie deficit" and think that invalidates all of the things they've learned through their years of focus and training.7 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I dont demonise foods, but there are certain foods that i avoid because the "serving size" or ridiculous amount of calories for a small amount of food is just not worth it for me. I just have trouble, or i don't want to stop eating these foods once i hit my calorie limit, and then most often than not I'm still hungry or unsatisfied afterward and I'll end up eating more and going over my calories. So for some foods, abstinence works better for me than moderation.
This.^^^^ I am generally one that eats a whole food diet but when I want something that I consider "junk food" (which is like a bowl of cereal or kettle chips in our house), I don't consider it a "cheat." I make it work within my day. Any issues I have with maintaining a deficit beyond that are purely emotional for me. But there is one thing I do NOT keep in my house, nor do I buy them - salt and vinegar chips. Because there is no such thing as eating one serving of those for me. It's all or nothing. So I choose nothing. But beyond that one item, nothing is off limits if I'm wanting it. I think others have said it well. Posters are expecting people that are reading to have common sense in interpreting what is being said, no one is advocating a junk food diet to lose weight, and even demonizing something eaten as a "cheat" isn't really helpful in the long run. If someone has an ED then common sense dictates lots of this advice might not apply to them, but surely they can figure that out? I call it eating the meat and spitting out the bones. If it doesn't apply to you, then move on.
In the beginning of my time on MFP I felt very much like people made it too simple by stating CICO. To the point where it really irritated me. But after using this for more then a year, watching, reading, and experimenting, I can conclusively say, yep, it's CICO. I've had to adjust my CICO for some health issues that others may not have, but it has still ended up being CICO. I may have other issues with health advice given on this site, but CICO still works, no matter what.3
This discussion has been closed.
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