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NYT article about obesity stating it's genetic, not lack of willpower
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jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
"Science". You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.
It doesn't mean you get to cherry pick studies, say they are facts, and ignore the large body of evidence that refutes what you are saying. It also does not mean you can make a claim and back it up with a study that does not back your claim. I'm beginning to think, based on your ad hominem attack on the MFP members as a whole and lack of refutation to the very valid points others have made on the limitations of the references you have posted or what the studies actually state/prove compared to what you are trying to say they do, that you do not understand the science or the studies you are referencing.
The default MFP setting is now private for the weight loss ticker. Nice of you to use a character attack though, especially given yours is also hidden and you have no food logged at all.
You want to see weight loss? Here you go. 6+ years since I started my initial loss, and 5-1/2 years at "maintenance". Those gains and loses after the initial weight loss were all planned as part of fitness goals (bulk/cut, and then getting down to running race weight).
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ah nature vs nurture. I think some people gain weight more easily or lose it more easily because of their genetics but to say "I'm 300 lbs because of my DNA" is a total cop out.9
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jenniferinfl wrote: »
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Except that it's not, and nothing you've cited even suggests that it is.8 -
Google determinants of health - Far more influential. Genetics play a role, but to say that you're fat because your parents are fat would be taking the easy way out.7
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in_the_stars wrote: »
Oh! Viruses. Adenoviruses?
Hmm... haven't looked at the research in years. Obesity MIGHT be contagious.
I'm off to wash my hands.
Filovirus - ancient and one of the reasons this little bug has such a high mortality rate. Seeing the impact firsthand is quite frankly terrifying. This is what steered me into microbiology.1 -
And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.2 -
Peer reviewed study of what? That obesity is not 70% genetic? They don't do studies to show that something is NOT true. The lack of studies showing it is true is the proof, for now at least. You made the claim that obesity is mostly genetic but cited a lot of links that didn't actually prove that. Until there is a preponderance of peer reviewed studies showing obesity is genetic, it's not scientifically accurate to say that.18
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
We're still waiting for you to provide one legitimate peer-reviewed study showing that it does exist.
You made the assertion, the burden of proof is upon you. That's how debate works. But feel free to go on feeling victimized by your genetics if that's what works for you.10 -
One of our telly doctors here in the UK had the genetic testing done. She has the gene. She's not fat, never has been. Imagine.7
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Here's a discussion of the FTO gene, certain versions of which is supposed to be associated with obesity. It's interesting that even so the average difference is something like 6-7 lbs, and the increased risk of obesity is 1.67, which is not insignificant, but hardly suggests that people are predetermined to be fat or thin, or that it's really just genetic. (I know this is wiki, but it has links, and I reviewed some related sources.)
Note, this is where the obesity is 70% determined by the genes nonsense comes from -- that the risk is 70% higher if you have two copies of the increased risk FTO gene version: http://www.news-medical.net/health/Fat-Mass-and-Obesity-Associated-Gene-(FTO).aspx (this also explains the proposed mechanism, which is not contrary to CICO).
Significantly, it seems to affect the reasons people become overweight (hunger and so on), not the response to reducing calories or the calories needed. Here's a pretty good media discussion: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/20/obesity-gene-weight-loss-gain-study-diet
Here too: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0713/15072013-How-obesity-gene-triggers-weight-gain-Batterham
And a more scientific discussion: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443914000337
Also interesting: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173560
There's a bunch more -- extremely interesting, but not at all contrary to the idea that higher risk people can find a way to lose and maintain lost weight, and not suggesting that they have to eat crazy low calories.14 -
Conclusion cited in the Guardian article, quoted from "Andrew Hattersley, professor of molecular medicine at the University of Exeter and part of the team that discovered the influence of the FTO genetic variant on weight gain":“Part of [obesity] is environmental, part of it is genetic, part of the genetic component is the FTO gene,” he said. “This isn’t a group that is remarkably different genetically. It is a very minor change and it is only a minor part of their susceptibility.”8
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
You have yet to provide evidence supporting your position. The articles you cited do not support the concept of genetic obesity or any manner of set point. As such there is no point to cherry pick studies countering points which have not been proven.
Do you acknowledge any responsibility for creating a hostile environment? Instead of using ad hominem try sticking to the points of the issue rather than launching personal attacks and engaging in passive aggressive/outwardly aggressive behavior.
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^ All of this.We're still waiting for you to provide one legitimate peer-reviewed study showing that it does exist.
You made the assertion, the burden of proof is upon you. That's how debate works. But feel free to go on feeling victimized by your genetics if that's what works for you.
@jenniferinfl
You made an assertion. The burden of proof is on YOU.
If you claim pink unicorns fly around the moon it is not my responsibility to prove they don't.
SCIENCE doesn't work that way and neither does a logical debate.
You have made a claim and the preponderance of evidence says you are WRONG.
Furthermore, it would STILL NOT ACCEPTED AS A SCIENTIFIC FACT unless the majority of researchers take your alleged "proof", independently reproduce the EXPERIMENTS that provided your "proof" and get mostly similar results.
I have yet to see one scientific paper from you or anyone else that substantiates your claims.
If MFP is "hostile" I would posit that it is often due to people with misinformed opinions based on Google searches acting like they are experts arguing with others who pay attention to the REAL SCIENCE AND ACTUALLY PUT IN THE REQUIRED WORK. Instead of making excuses and acting like they are special snowflakes / victims maybe some people should start watching for confirmation bias and stop cherry-picking "data".
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
If you don't log your food here, and you think it's a hostile environment, I'm not sure why you are here at all?
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Some people just base their lives around drama so they can get attention.If you don't log your food here, and you think it's a hostile environment, I'm not sure why you are here at all?
Many of them go so far as to say "they don't like all the drama".
I would not be surprised if something like that is the case here.
Why bother working harder on managing your diet and getting sufficient exercise when you could spend all day telling people how much more difficult things are for you {compared to them} instead?
"It isn't my fault that I frequently eat more than my body requires. I am overweight because of my genetics". Boo-hoo.
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"I don't log my food here because it's hostile", but you'll come onto the forum and participate in debate? I have never, NOT ONCE, seen someone attack someone's food diary. I've seen a lot of people commenting on inaccuracies if ASKED but what you're describing, I fear, is as in your head as the genetic obesity thing.
Why are you commenting on a debate thread on a forum you don't feel safe enough to put food entries into a food log? (that you can make private btw)
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Behavior is learned not really genetic. You can take any child and put them in any environment and they will learn behavior that's consistent with that environment.
THIS. Also if were just genetics, then how do people who are "genetically thin" have the same risk of getting obese when changing their diet to one that's much much higher calories?If it were genetics, why do we now have more obesity than 20 years ago?
Granted environment makes a difference. If one celebrates with food or hangs around food all the time, it's not uncommon for them to get overweight or obese. But it one CANNOT get obese if they don't surplus. And that's more a behavioral issue than a genetic issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
And then you ask how much of our behavior is genetic. And down the rabbit hole you go.
Although I think environment matters more. And affects the epigenome, too. Which is why I hate seeing parents loading their kids up on low nutrient convenience foods and allowing them to sit around, play video games, and get obese.
It's like saying a kid is spoiled. Were they born that way or RAISED that way? Same with religious beliefs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Stop please. While there are genetic issues with HORMONAL BALANCE, weight gain/loss/maintenance is based on CICO. Even if someone were at a hormonal disadvantage and hard to pay more attention to their calorie intake, people get obese from consuming more than they need to. Consuming food is not a GENETIC issue. It's a BEHAVIORAL issue.jenniferinfl wrote: »
@CSARdiver
Since you cannot find the science in my post, here it is: http://gradworks.umi.com/37/32/3732324.html
And another study: http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v6/n3/abs/nrg1556.html
And another study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18842775
And yet another study: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1400613?rss=searchAndBrowse&#t=article
Obesity is genetic. Science knows that beyond refute. Scientist's KNOW that obesity and thinness are genetic. It's the entire fat-shaming population that wants to plug their ears to it the same as they plug their ears and hum over global warming.
I don't mean that people cannot lose weight, they can, just for a lot of the population it is going to be very, very hard to lose weight and keep it off. It can be done, but, it is not the same as being a person who is genetically thin.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Except none of those articles claim genetics as the cause of obesity as fact. Have you ever seen identical twin studies where one weighs much more than the other? Explain how that happens if obesity (or any weight issue) is a fact? Exact genetics between the two, but one is fat while the other isn't.jenniferinfl wrote: »I'm going to try this one more time. None of you will get it, but maybe it will help someone else.
Knowing a scientific fact doesn't mean that you are using it as an excuse. It just means that you know the fact.
For instance, most people accept that 50% of marriages end in divorce is a fact. (Not sure about this crowd, but, it was the least controversial statistic thing I could come up with. ) Most people know this fact. At least, I've heard it enough to assume most people know it.
Knowing that fact results in several different reactions. Some people use it as an excuse to not get married at all. Some people know it, but, have other excuses for never marrying. Some people know it, know the risks and get married anyways. Some people know it, but believe they are special and divorce will never happen to them.
Denying it doesn't make it not true. I posted the scientific studies, you either didn't read them or couldn't comprehend them. That's fine, that isn't my problem.
Now, if we accept that genetic obesity is a thing like SCIENCE says it is, that can lead us to the same type of reactions as the divorce statistic above.
Some people will use it as an excuse to never lose weight. Some people will know it but use other reasons as excuses not to lose weight. Some people will use that knowledge, they will know the risks, they will make informed decisions when they lose weight- they will know that obesity (not overweight, obesity) is a lifelong disease. (They won't assume like I did that my obesity was cured, they won't assume they can put their scale away because they've kept the weight off for 10 years. They will KNOW it is always lurking. They will know those fat cells are waiting to refill at a rate that defies belief.) And then there is probably the most harmed group, the ones who believe they are fully cured when they lose the weight. The ones who don't believe that obesity is a lifelong thing. If you have ever been obese then you absolutely need to know that you are never cured. Never. You may not have to count everyday, but, you will always need to own a scale and weigh regularly, you will go through periods where you will have to go back to logging. It takes vigilance on at least a weekly basis to keep off the visible signs that you have obesity.
I gained back my 100 lbs because I believed I was cured. Everyone told me I was, I was a success story, I'd kept it off for 10 years. I had it figured out. Just 3 months of not weighing had me back at my original weight.
I didn't share those scientific articles for people to use them as excuses. I shared them so that people would fully understand what fighting obesity means. It is a fight that is NEVER over. As soon as you think it's over, you are in dangerous territory.
But, go ahead, pick all that apart. LOL Love that all of you have your weight loss set to private. You all can read mine, I'm clearly not making excuses, I'm making informed choices.
This time, thanks to science, I know that even when I lose the weight I am not cured. I am never cured. Knowing that is empowering and allows me to make good judgements and you can't steal that from me.
What's happening here is that you're not really understanding the actual studies. Obesity is debated on whether or not disease. There is no definitive answer.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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jenniferinfl wrote: »And still not a single rebuttal in the form of an actual scientific study. Not even one... lol My weight loss ticker is not private. I don't log my food here because MFP is a hostile environment; it's been that way for years. I log my food on a safer website. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand how CICO works, the difference is that some people's calorie out is very different from the average. That's what you seem to be unable to grasp, or, show a scientific study debunking. I'm done with this thread. You guys had all afternoon to find one peer-reviewed study, you shared none.
That says it all for me.
If your profile is private, your ticker is not viewable unless you post it somewhere.
MFP is hostile, so you don't log your food here which requires zero social interaction, but you do come onto the public forums, and the Debate Forum of all places... this makes no sense.
Nobody is going to waste their time posting studies when you have completely ignored any rebuttals to the studies you posted where folks have already pointed out the limitations of the "studies" (some of links which were just news reports) and what they actually prove versus what you seem to claim they do, showing you do not under the subject matter. Instead, you have continued with ad hominem attacks on the community here (some of them VERY well educated on study design and the subjects being studied). It's like playing chess with a pigeon.
At this point, I can only assume you are on here to troll and antagonize other members.9
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