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Fat Acceptance Movement
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Hmm, some important things to add to this discussion:
Feminism means a lot of different things. Feminists don't all agree on everything.
It is true that some feminists consider fat a feminist issue, and others (probably even me) will consider body acceptance or being aware of how body image/comments about body are used in a demeaning way to be a feminist issue (including about men -- I've seen lots of nastiness about fat people (or individuals who are overweight) in political discussions, from people who should know better, and usually it's the more feminist types who object to that, even when it's about someone (or a group of people) they find politically repugnant. (Not saying only feminists care about this.) It's also true, these days, that snotty comments about fat are OFTEN associated with snotty comments about poorer people or the less educated (including when made by those left of center), because fat is a class issue to some extent in the US, anyway.
Considering fat a feminist issue is quite the opposite of pushing the idea that "real women have curves" or that "real women" should have any body type (which is actually what the "fat is feminists" links posted). Therefore, the mockery of "feminists" as being anti thin women or saying super fit women aren't attractive (as with the parody man thing) is misplaced, IMO. Of course, if one runs into a self-proclaimed feminist who promotes that kind of stuff (real women have curves, only dogs like bones), one should, if one wishes, call him or her on the hypocrisy. I would, but then I enjoy doing that kind of thing sometimes. I haven't actually seen it, though--again, well-curated FB page.
This. Pitting women against each other is kind of ANTI-feminist.2 -
Feminism, in its truest incarnation, is literally about equality. For everyone. Fat women. Fat men. Thin women. Thin men. Women generally have their exterior linked to their worth as a human. So it's about equalising that (eliminating) and bringing it to an equal playing field. Everyone treated the same way all else being equal. Feminism has brought about a lot of positive political and social change.
Are there those who bastardise it? For sure. But most feminists don't identify with them. Pretty much every woman and most men I know identify as feminist. None of them are third wavers, even down to the 20 year olds I know.13 -
Most on today's college campuses are third wave feminists.VintageFeline wrote: »Feminism, in its truest incarnation, is literally about equality. For everyone. Fat women. Fat men. Thin women. Thin men. Women generally have their exterior linked to their worth as a human. So it's about equalising that (eliminating) and bringing it to an equal playing field. Everyone treated the same way all else being equal. Feminism has brought about a lot of positive political and social change.
Are there those who bastardise it? For sure. But most feminists don't identify with them. Pretty much every woman and most men I know identify as feminist. None of them are third wavers, even down to the 20 year olds I know.
https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29070/
http://college.usatoday.com/2017/03/16/young-feminism/
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Don't forget that the guy has to be tall and ripped, too. Fat guys are too gross to honour her curves! An acceptance movement that doesn't even extend to both sexes is no acceptance movement.
Exactly. They want the cream of the crop but disregard fat guys themselves.5 -
MJ2victory wrote: »
what are you even talking about??
What am I even talking about? Come now, you said in one of your previous posts that you are aware of Jes Baker - so such feigning of ignorance is disingenuous at best (like most of your posts in this thread)
I'll post some examples, From Ms. Baker herself.
Exhibit A - http://www.themilitantbaker.com/2013/03/things-no-one-will-tell-fat-girls-so-i.html
Please note the paragraph regarding "Fat chicks bang hot guys all the time" Fat women are hot while being fat, but men still have to be......hot.
Exhibit B - http://www.themilitantbaker.com/2013/05/to-mike-jeffries-co-abercrombie-fitch.html
If fat is so attractive, why did Ms. Baker pay to be photographed with a much slimmer guy, like he's some sort of object or status symbol to brag about? Why didn't she pose with an equally overweight man, given that A&F sell clothes to both sexes? I think we all know the entitled, hypocritical answer to that one.
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VintageFeline wrote: »Feminism, in its truest incarnation, is literally about equality. For everyone. Fat women. Fat men. Thin women. Thin men. Women generally have their exterior linked to their worth as a human. So it's about equalising that (eliminating) and bringing it to an equal playing field. Everyone treated the same way all else being equal. Feminism has brought about a lot of positive political and social change.
Are there those who bastardise it? For sure. But most feminists don't identify with them. Pretty much every woman and most men I know identify as feminist. None of them are third wavers, even down to the 20 year olds I know.peckchris3267 wrote: »Most on today's college campuses are third wave feminists.
https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29070/
http://college.usatoday.com/2017/03/16/young-feminism/
A lot of it depends on whose definition of third-wave feminism you're using. EVERY age of feminism, even during the push for women's suffrage, has had its branch of "men suck!" proponents.
The USA Today article mentions diversity and inclusiveness as hallmarks of young feminists, just as @VintageFeline was saying. This means that when working against the problems caused by patriarchy, it's important to look at how they affect men as well as women - the stress from the expectation to be the primary breadwinner, the higher pressure from peers to engage in risky and/or self-harming behaviors, the assumption that men can't be / don't get sexually assaulted, the notion that certain colors are off-limits or you're "not a real man." All of these are feminist issues.
The College Fix markets itself as a right-wing digital magazine, so full disclosure, I'm taking that with a big ol' chunk of Himalayan pink salt.
Its lead is "The call for women’s equality has been achieved at American universities." It mentions enrollment and graduation rates. Interestingly, I don't see any mention of job placement rates. And even in this conservatively angled blog post, the author admits that the focus is on toxic masculinity, though it is framed as being against all men.
ANYWAY...
To address the original issue - if forced to choose between health and happiness, I'm picking the latter. I'd rather be at an overweight BMI and happy than at a healthy BMI and unhappy. Of course, for most of us, it's not an either/or proposition; they're interdependent. And it's a chicken-or-egg scenario. The discomfort and even pain of poor health makes it more difficult to be happy. The lethargy and negative self-talk in chronic unhappiness or depression makes it more difficult to maintain behaviors that keep you healthy.
But, for me, happiness takes a higher priority. And that's why I support fat acceptance.7 -
What am I even talking about? Come now, you said in one of your previous posts that you are aware of Jes Baker - so such feigning of ignorance is disingenuous at best (like most of your posts in this thread)
I'll post some examples, From Ms. Baker herself.
Exhibit A - http://www.themilitantbaker.com/2013/03/things-no-one-will-tell-fat-girls-so-i.html
Please note the paragraph regarding "Fat chicks bang hot guys all the time" Fat women are hot while being fat, but men still have to be......hot.
Exhibit B - http://www.themilitantbaker.com/2013/05/to-mike-jeffries-co-abercrombie-fitch.html
If fat is so attractive, why did Ms. Baker pay to be photographed with a much slimmer guy, like he's some sort of object or status symbol to brag about? Why didn't she pose with an equally overweight man, given that A&F sell clothes to both sexes? I think we all know the entitled, hypocritical answer to that one.
That shot was a comment on beauty standards. Plus, Jess Baker's partner is fat and a hottie. It stands to reason that fat women who find themselves hot also find fat men hot. If not then, yeah, they're hypocritical af.0 -
I like a slim gently defined physique on men. If we're solely talking physical attraction. I'm attracted to others once I know them a bit regardless of appearance largely but I'm human. Am I a terrible hypocritical human being because I haven't been slim the whole time I've been attracted to that kind of man? Please.2
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You are not "Healthy at Any Size" but you are beautiful at any size (considering you're not a nasty person ok).
I often hear, I don't have time to work out or I can't eat healthy, I need to enjoy my life. Great! I don't judge you and I'm guilty of saying all the above when I was in my 20s but as you get older and you see friends your age getting surgeries or even dying, it changes you. I would rather start a healthy lifestyle now (w/splurge once in a while) and not be bed bound by the time I'm 60. I volunteered at a nursing home before and it's the most depressing thing to see old folks sit there, helpless, and as many of the residents expressed, wishing for your time to go. I want to be up, walking, and as independent as can be up until it's my time to go so that's my long term motivation. For short term, I just want to know that I can do it!5 -
As long as you weren't annoyed at men for not being generally attracted to you when you were a chub, it's okay. Tit for tat.
This!4 -
Exactly! Not doing these things should be expected out of each and every person, not praised. Not only that, but it is acceptable to shame drunks, smokers, drug addicts, abusers, etc.
Omg. Is this real? Three of those things are diseases. Why not shame cancer patients for not wearing enough sunblock at some point in their lives? Wow... I mean... wow. To think you have that right.4 -
SiegfriedXXL wrote: »I too have been called fat, whale, fattie, and had pig noises snorted at me from cars throughout my life. I was the fattest person in my class from middle school to present day and I suffered for it. Guess what? The people doing that would find something else to ridicule about me if I were thin. Those people are just bad people. The people wanting you to move out of their way would have wanted you to move even if you were thin. Then they would have said "Move your *kitten*, twiggy." Or "b****" or what ever else they needed to say to shock you into moving. Our fat is the most obvious target but people like that, rude people, not "ultra obesity prejudiced people", will find any target and take aim. There's nothing about being fat that brings out some additional capacity for evil in those who see a fat person that they otherwise would not exhibit when seeing someone else they want to victimize.
I'm not 100% sure here. FWIW I was horribly bullied throughout school and even a number of overweight kids took to bullying me, I guess they thought I was the only one they could get away with picking on, because I was different and nobody would stand up for me. I was called ugly all my life, and told I should do the world a favor and kill myself. I now understand this had a lot to do with being both mixed race and culturally different from my American classmates, but I was also a nerd and some of my "weirdness" was being from a different culture and some was just me being myself.... But I had friends who managed to be more "anonymous" who escaped the worst of the bullying, as long as they didn't stand out too much. Maybe if you had been thin you might have flown under the radar a bit.
BUT that said, while I still get some side-eye or a little bit of attitude from people now and then, but most adults grew out of that kind of stuff when it comes to those types of differences. Now more than anything people are interested in learning about people with different backgrounds. But when it comes to very heavy people there still is cruelty. I've seen people whisper loud enough to be overheard "I hope she paid for two seats on the plane because I don't want to be seated next to her" or the things shouted from cars, etc. Nobody now shouts to me from cars that my nose is too wide and flat or that my lips are disgustingly huge like I was told in school as a child.
Strangely enough, after all that I went through during school, it's easy for me now to slip into "overweight anonymous lady" mode--I don't really get noticed except that for some reason men are always trying to pick me up in the grocery store.... I've gotten "you look like a lot of fun!" Ugh, I'm chubby so that makes me fun? I've heard people here complain about how being overweight makes them feel invisible but after what I experienced growing up, it's a huge relief. But really obese people do get some *kitten*, they cannot be invisible and people can be very cruel. I know what it's like to be picked on, so I hate it when I see it.3 -
I personally hate it! Healthy at any size is just not true. Bullying is wrong, shaming people is wrong, making fun of people based on thier appearance is wrong. Telling someone that is morbidly obese that they are healthy is also wrong.
If you are (I was) obese and on a solid nutrition and exercise plan, you will lose fat. Yes, you will be healthier while you are obese and following a healthy lifestyle.
This movement is lying to people. And the worst part, the worst part of the entire movement is the hypocritical attitude. I got into weightlifting to help me lose weight. I fell in love with it. I love seeing new muscles pop up, I love being able to do things I couldn't do last year. I get so much negativity from it though. One of my friends decided to join on FB, I made a comment that I'm glad she's happy. Simple enough. My profile picture is of my flexed back...yep, got some muscles there. And I got so much hate speech directed at the picture saying how "these images are bad for people", "are causing eating disorders because of unattainable bodys", "not even a real woman", "it's disgusting", I must be on steroids, I'm a man.... It was just ugly. Yeah, it's not fat acceptance and accepting all body types. It really isn't. That's just my personal experience.7 -
@BabyBear76 Were the people who were being so obnoxious part of a fat acceptance group? Otherwise I'm not seeing the hypocrisy. Facebook has a lot of jerks, unfortunately.1
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clicketykeys wrote: »@BabyBear76 Were the people who were being so obnoxious part of a fat acceptance group? Otherwise I'm not seeing the hypocrisy. Facebook has a lot of jerks, unfortunately.clicketykeys wrote: »@BabyBear76 Were the people who were being so obnoxious part of a fat acceptance group? Otherwise I'm not seeing the hypocrisy. Facebook has a lot of jerks, unfortunately.
Yep, they were. This wasn't just random people, but a fat acceptance/body positive group. I find it upsetting that the same people who want other to quit body shaming them, will body shame others.2 -
I came across this story today.
This Bodybuilder Decided To Shame A Fellow Gym Member—And People Are Furious - Women's Health
https://apple.news/AFzjSeYG4QiOSEVJBt6rjcg
And it reminded me of so many threads where people talked about being scared or nervous about working out because of the way others might treat them. And it made me think of this thread as well.
I don't think anyone should be ridiculed, mocked or disrespected for the way they look (in this case, how much they weigh). This really made me angry. Here is a woman on the treadmill trying to get healthier and she is mocked in a very public way. And sad. The woman doing the mocking is very fit. She worked hard to get that way and I feel sorry for her that she developed a sense of superiority along with those muscles. And seemed to have lost her empathy and humanity along with her body fat.
I also think "fat acceptance" has gone too far and almost seems to be promoting obesity. I think everyone should love themselves and not think they are "less than" because they weigh more. I also think that love should come with a sense of duty and responsibility to take care of one's self by improving health and losing weight.5 -
It's an old story.
"Remember Dani Mathers, the Playboy model who posted a picture of a woman changing in a gym locker room and body-shamed her? Apparently Instagram fitness star and bodybuilder Diana Andrews doesn’t, because she went ahead and did the same thing.
According to the Huffington Post UK, Diana shared a video on her Instagram Stories earlier this week of an unidentified woman talking on her phone on a treadmill with the caption “love handles.” She then followed it up with a separate slide on her Story that said “I bet she’s ordering [burger emojis] for delivery.”0 -
It's from March of 2017, so a few months old. Came across it today for some reason. The direct link should work. The picture of the Insta really captures the mean-spiritedness of the mockery.
womenshealthmag.com/life/diana-andrews-body-shaming
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It's from March of 2017, so a few months old. Came across it today for some reason. The direct link should work. The picture of the Insta really captures the mean-spiritedness of the mockery.
womenshealthmag.com/life/diana-andrews-body-shaming
"Apologies" like that really irk me. "It was not my intention to body shame, hurt..." etc. Horseshit. That was exactly the intention.5 -
Exactly! She knew what she was doing was wrong and did it anyway. #smh0
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This Bodybuilder Decided To Shame A Fellow Gym Member—And People Are Furious - Women's Health
https://apple.news/AFzjSeYG4QiOSEVJBt6rjcg
You know what caught my eye about that headline? The "people are furious" bit (which is admittedly a bit click baity but still.)
This goes back to what a number of posters have said on this thread - most people don't like this crap, don't like actions which are hurtful or lack decency and will call it out when they see it.
If that is the case why is there a need for a movement, especially if that movement seems to be driving people apart based on something arbitrary like they way they look given its militancy? One has to wonder who the leaders of these movements are actually for - the individuals who they claim to be protecting or their own personal power and gain.
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You know what caught my eye about that headline? The "people are furious" bit (which is admittedly a bit click baity but still.)
This goes back to what a number of posters have said on this thread - most people don't like this crap, don't like actions which are hurtful or lack decency and will call it out when they see it.
If that is the case why is there a need for a movement, especially if that movement seems to be driving people apart based on something arbitrary like they way they look given its militancy? One has to wonder who the leaders of these movements are actually for - the individuals who they claim to be protecting or their own personal power and gain.
Bingo.1 -
You know what caught my eye about that headline? The "people are furious" bit (which is admittedly a bit click baity but still.)
This goes back to what a number of posters have said on this thread - most people don't like this crap, don't like actions which are hurtful or lack decency and will call it out when they see it.
If that is the case why is there a need for a movement, especially if that movement seems to be driving people apart based on something arbitrary like they way they look given its militancy? One has to wonder who the leaders of these movements are actually for - the individuals who they claim to be protecting or their own personal power and gain.
Exactly. Nobody is disagreeing that body shaming is wrong and should never happen. The problem I see is that the FA movement tends to attempt to body shame those who are fit to defend their obesity. Nobody should just accept being unhealthy, and being obese in itself is unhealthy.2 -
I came across this story today.
This Bodybuilder Decided To Shame A Fellow Gym Member—And People Are Furious - Women's Health
https://apple.news/AFzjSeYG4QiOSEVJBt6rjcg
And it reminded me of so many threads where people talked about being scared or nervous about working out because of the way others might treat them. And it made me think of this thread as well.
What a horrible bully! People who are overweight should be APPLAUDED for taking the first step to enter what will be an initially intimidating environment. Welcome them and support them at every turn. The person who posted that pic has abused her position and is the reason why there needs to be a body positivity movement in the first place!
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What a horrible bully! People who are overweight should be APPLAUDED for taking the first step to enter what will be an initially intimidating environment. Welcome them and support them at every turn. The person who posted that pic has abused her position and is the reason why there needs to be a body positivity movement in the first place!
I think applauding people for doing an every day normal activity can be seen as patronizing, which is why I've never treating anyone in a gym or when I'm out on a run any differently than anyone else. If I make eye contact, I say hello or good morning. That's pretty much it.
I've read too many stories about people getting offended that I'm afraid of stepping on toes for being encouraging. I remember there was one point when I was in the middle of losing weight and was still decently sized and was out doing C25K while we were on vacation. Some people started cheering me on saying things like "good for you!", and I was mortified and though I appreciated the fact that they meant well, exercise wasn't something new for me and I'd already lost 50 pounds. Bear in mind, other, much thinner people were also out there and didn't receive such treatment.
Just some random rambling.
Fat shaming is horrible, but I don't think the answer to it is to single out fat people and baby them for engaging in healthy behaviors.8 -
To me, there are the following points to consider :
- the reality health-wise : obesity and being to much underweight are definitely health issues. They are a sign of bad health.
- your body type tells something about you : being obese or underweight does mean (even though there are exceptions in illness cases) having a unhealthy lifestyle. It's cool, there are many unhealthy ways to live your life. People smoke, people drink, it's up to them to live with the consequences. If your body type is your choice, accept the consequences.
- effectiveness : shaming people for who they are, or their habits may not be effective for everyone to make a change in their lives. Some people may need support. To realize, accept and act upon the fact that they have to change their lifestyle. I know I didn't : it's after I couldn't fit in one of my shirts because of those damn snap clip buttons, I hated what I did to my body, and changed completely after that. I used my shame, my anger, and redirected towards making change in my life. Even then, it's not shame induced by anyone else, it's my own. I understand that not everybody is like that, and that's the point. It may help, it may not. If someone already wants to change their body, they probably already are unhappy with how they are now (if not, why would they want to change it ?), you don't need to add to that. If someone don't want to change their body, it's much more likely that you'd be considered a jerk a dismissed.
- effective or not, it's not up to you to try to change someone else's habits. If they want to make a change, it's up to them. If they want your help, they'll ask. It is their business. Personnal life choices (as is smoking, or over/under eating and being under/overweight), are up to the person making them. Questioning the lifestyle of someone without being asked to is kind of being a jerk in my opinion. I don't smoke and never did, I find it incredibely dumb. But if I see someone smoking, I don't go on a rant : people chose to do what they want, it's not harming anyone but themselves (second hand smoking is another issue, as would be obese or underweight people feeding their own children an unhealthy diet. It's a different question, and a hard one). If someone asks, I'll be honest : it's a bad choice in my opinion, but it's your choice and doesn't affect me, as long as you're aware of the consequences and ready to live with them, it's perfectly fine to me.
- I also feel that some people wish they could have best of both worlds, claiming that you can be obese and perfectly healthy. You can, as everything that is related to risk assertion is only using a probabilistic argument to conclude that a particular lifestyle choice is unhealthy. It's also possible for you to win the lottery 250 times in a row, but it's unlikely (the chance is not the same ofc, but I'm just pointing to the absurdity of that argument). If you want to have an unhealthy lifestyle, do it, but accept the consequences : you're more likely to have bad health. One of my uncle did that. Doctors told him he should stop eating cheese and lunch meat. He said "*kitten* it, I'd rather live a short life but enjoy myself, those foods are one of the reason I find life enjoyable". He understood the consequences, accepted them and made a choice. People who don't accept the reality of living an unhealthy lifestyle need to be reminded of what is medically true.
- The thing is : many people want something (being fit) but are not ready to act toward that goal (eat healthier, exercise, pay a rather close attention to those things) or don't know what to do. If you're doing things with full knowledge of the consequences : under/over/healthy eating, more power to you. If you're doing one thing while wanting another, for exemple being overweight while wanting a healthy life, something is wrong. People might want to be healthier, but not realize what they're doing wrong. What they need, is to learn. It is knowledge, so they have more power over their own lives. Wishing, and stating the fact that you're perfectly healthy when you're obese/underweight doesn't make it so.
- on a broader note : I'm not really into this whole "LOVE your body/yourself". Love is way too strong, it's way to narcissistic for me. You accept and respect yourself. You are what you are, you also are your own decisions. Be in control of what you can control. If you want something, think about how to get there, and act.7 -
I follow Iskra Lawrence on Insta/FB, and on nearly every post where she is at the gym or talking about exercise, there are tons of posts about how she looked better before she lost weight, why is she working out, etc etc. Drives me batty....
I think that SHE has a good message (loving yourself but pursuing health) but the FA army are all over her posts (as well as Ashley Graham, although I don't think that AG emphasizes being "healthy" as much as Iskra so maybe it doesn't annoy me as much)0 -
Well, ah, this is what the shaming bodybuilder's face looks like. I'll just leave this here.
oh, oh my.....3 -
I will say I struggle with knowing where the line is, with this. I'm big. So very big. But I have no health issues at all to speak of (bloodwork is great blood pressure great etc.) yet. I know it's a yet so I'm working on it.
But I also struggle to appreciate my body as it is. I have issues looking at myself and actually seeing that it's me. Is that weight related? Maybe. I'm supposed to love myself and find myself beautiful but I'm also supposed to want to not be overweight so I struggle to love myself AND want to change myself, if that makes any sense at all?
Also annoyed when I refer to myself as fat and someone tries to correct me by saying "You're not fat you're beautiful" like...not really a compliment? I am definitely fat it's not like you're going to burst my little bubble here. I can also be attractive or comfortable with how I look, right? I dunno. It sucks.4 -
...most people don't like this crap, don't like actions which are hurtful or lack decency and will call it out when they see it.
If that is the case why is there a need for a movement, especially if that movement seems to be driving people apart based on something arbitrary like they way they look given its militancy? One has to wonder who the leaders of these movements are actually for - the individuals who they claim to be protecting or their own personal power and gain.
Because the FA Movement isn't just about the overt rudeness shown in that example, just as feminism isn't just about suffrage. The underlying assumptions that lead to these situations are harder to change.0
This discussion has been closed.
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