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Flu shots? For them or against ?
Replies
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Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯18
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Agree 100%Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯9 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.10 -
36k die from it - just in the US, but it's "not exactly lethal."
Interesting definition of "lethal" being used, here.2 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.
I can't really dispute numbers with you here because I Google'd a number as I'm sure you did. However, even in your worst case scenario of 500,000 ppl dying from flu out of the US population of 326,474,013. That's still less than 0.153% of deaths resulting from flu and we don't even know if flu was the sole cause of death. I'm not going to worry about a flu shot with numbers like that. Sorry.3 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Flu shots literally work by stimulating your immune system. They provoke a response that will protect you when you are exposed to the actual live infection.
I don't know what definition of "coddling" you are using, but it is not the commonly accepted one.8 -
36k die from it - just in the US, but it's "not exactly lethal."
Interesting definition of "lethal" being used, here.
You have to look at numbers with context, meaning compare it to the US population or other leading causes of death and flu deaths are like nothing. I consider "lethal" to be something I should actually be worried about dying from, like heart disease or cancer.4 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.
I can't really dispute numbers with you here because I Google'd a number as I'm sure you did. However, even in your worst case scenario of 500,000 ppl dying from flu out of the US population of 326,474,013. That's still less than 0.153% of deaths resulting from flu and we don't even know if flu was the sole cause of death. I'm not going to worry about a flu shot with numbers like that. Sorry.
I just don't understand your definition of 'not lethal' when half a million people every year die. It's not an insignificant number and it would be higher number if people didn't get the flu vaccine.5 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.
I can't really dispute numbers with you here because I Google'd a number as I'm sure you did. However, even in your worst case scenario of 500,000 ppl dying from flu out of the US population of 326,474,013. That's still less than 0.153% of deaths resulting from flu and we don't even know if flu was the sole cause of death. I'm not going to worry about a flu shot with numbers like that. Sorry.
Why would the number matter? The flu shot only protects one person at a time. Either you are the one or you are not.2 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.
I can't really dispute numbers with you here because I Google'd a number as I'm sure you did. However, even in your worst case scenario of 500,000 ppl dying from flu out of the US population of 326,474,013. That's still less than 0.153% of deaths resulting from flu and we don't even know if flu was the sole cause of death. I'm not going to worry about a flu shot with numbers like that. Sorry.
I just don't understand your definition of 'not lethal' when half a million people every year die. It's not an insignificant number and it would be higher number if people didn't get the flu vaccine.
True, technically it is "lethal" if you die from the flu. I guess I meant the probability of it being lethal is so small that it doesn't justify the risk of taking the flu vaccination. Something like the measles vaccination completely eradicated death from measles except for in rare cases where people didn't take the vaccine. So if the flu vaccines are effective, why aren't the people who missed the vaccinations the only ones getting sick from the flu? And if you've had the vaccination, you shouldn't be getting the flu?
Because the vaccination isn't effective for a virus that is constantly changing...
I understand I'm fighting an uphill battle here as a vast majority are probably in favor of flu shots...but I haven't had the flu or a vaccination in years and the risk is really only to myself. If I'm feeling healthy but carrying the flu virus, you should be immune to me from your vaccination.4 -
Wow, this thread just got cold
The flu doesn't kill enough people for me to worry about it? Is that really a reason?
People who are immuno-suppressed or have medical reasons why they can't get the shot but are vulnerable to the flu don't wear signs so you can tell who they are. They are the woman in the cubicle next to you, the guy sitting across from you on the train, the janitor at your kids' school. If you live in any sort of populated area, contributing to herd immunity is the decent thing to do if you are able to.
The flu shot works by stimulating your immune system. That's actually literally how your immune system works - an invader gets in and your immune system builds up the ability to fight it and "remembers" how to fight it for future reference. The shot gives you a dead version of a particular flu strain so your immune system learns how to fight it. Our immune system is faced with invaders all the time and is constantly adapting to deal with them. The flu shot is just another invader. How is one shot per year weakening your immune system any more than the daily stuff your immune system reacts to?9 -
I understand I'm fighting an uphill battle here as a vast majority are probably in favor of flu shots...but I haven't had the flu or a vaccination in years and the risk is really only to myself.
And everyone else around you.
One year I was at a meet-up when I came down with the 'flu. Almost everyone else who had been at that meet-up later came down with the 'flu, because they had caught it from me.
If I had been vaccinated against that strain, I wouldn't have come down with it. And you can't infect anyone with something you haven't got...11 -
36k die from it - just in the US, but it's "not exactly lethal."
Interesting definition of "lethal" being used, here.
You have to look at numbers with context, meaning compare it to the US population or other leading causes of death and flu deaths are like nothing. I consider "lethal" to be something I should actually be worried about dying from, like heart disease or cancer.
Yes, I understand context. Hundreds of thousands of people die each year due to the flu. My context is fine. "Like nothing." Seriously? We're going to marginalize something because your personal feeling is that it isn't a big deal?
BTW: Risk of dying from not getting flu shot >> risk of dying from getting flu shot. So "justify the risk of taking the flu vaccination" is literally... I've edited what I want to say three times now before posting so that I don't risk getting warned.8 -
Risk is about more than just the probability of the most serious negative result. Risk is about both the odds of something happening and how severely the effects are. Separately, risk management strategy is based upon the odds and severity of the risk; in addition to the 'cost' of available management strategies.
If the risk of encountering various strains of the virus is X and the severity is Y, then based on X and Y, a risk management strategy may be to just do nothing (yes, doing nothing to manage risk is a possible risk management strategy). Or it may be to wash hands frequently or at prescribed times. Or it may be to get the vaccine. Or something else or a combination of things.
Typically in risk management, if there is a very small chance of something happening and catastrophic losses if it does happen (such as with dying), then the best strategy is to transfer that risk (i.e. buy insurance). While you can buy life insurance, you can't transfer death. If that concerns you, then the next strategy is to mitigate risk. The cost of a flu shot (except for someone who is allergic, in which case the 'cost' is quite high) is a part of what it could take to mitigate that risk. So is the cost of soap for more frequent hand washing.
ETA: For example, the 'cost' of wearing a seat belt is worthwhile even though the odds that I will be in a collision each time I drive is very low. The severity of a collision, on the other hand, is high. This is part of why I buy automobile insurance (risk transfer), and mitigate personal injury risk by wearing a seat belt.6 -
I understand I'm fighting an uphill battle here as a vast majority are probably in favor of flu shots...but I haven't had the flu or a vaccination in years and the risk is really only to myself.
And everyone else around you.
One year I was at a meet-up when I came down with the 'flu. Almost everyone else who had been at that meet-up later came down with the 'flu, because they had caught it from me.
If I had been vaccinated against that strain, I wouldn't have come down with it. And you can't infect anyone with something you haven't got...
Or your Vitamin D level had been 75+ ng perhaps, etc. These are the kind of cases we really never can prove the cause.5 -
Flu shots coddle your immune system. There are vaccinations that are indisputable (measles, hepatitis, meningitis, etc.) because contracting them is commonly fatal. Then there are band-aid vaccinations like the flu shot where roughly 36k die/year from the flu which is usually complemented by other complications. Not exactly lethal. When the strains of the flu are constantly changing, vaccination cannot really give you the security or protection from those strains. Cut the bull* that you're doing ME a favor by getting YOUR flu shot. If it makes you feel better to get one, great, get one for yourself. However, until its required by law, I'm going to continue taking my Vitamin C pouches, drinking my tea, and using my hand sanitizer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
36,000 just in the US. The WHO estimates that between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the influenza virus or complications resulting from. But yeah, totes not lethal.
I can't really dispute numbers with you here because I Google'd a number as I'm sure you did. However, even in your worst case scenario of 500,000 ppl dying from flu out of the US population of 326,474,013. That's still less than 0.153% of deaths resulting from flu and we don't even know if flu was the sole cause of death. I'm not going to worry about a flu shot with numbers like that. Sorry.
I just don't understand your definition of 'not lethal' when half a million people every year die. It's not an insignificant number and it would be higher number if people didn't get the flu vaccine.
True, technically it is "lethal" if you die from the flu. I guess I meant the probability of it being lethal is so small that it doesn't justify the risk of taking the flu vaccination. Something like the measles vaccination completely eradicated death from measles except for in rare cases where people didn't take the vaccine. So if the flu vaccines are effective, why aren't the people who missed the vaccinations the only ones getting sick from the flu? And if you've had the vaccination, you shouldn't be getting the flu?
Because the vaccination isn't effective for a virus that is constantly changing...
I understand I'm fighting an uphill battle here as a vast majority are probably in favor of flu shots...but I haven't had the flu or a vaccination in years and the risk is really only to myself. If I'm feeling healthy but carrying the flu virus, you should be immune to me from your vaccination.
Please tell me, what are the risks from the flu shot?
Are they higher than the risk of fatality from the flu itself?6 -
@suzannesimmons3 what medical evidence do you have that "Healthy" people even get the flu much less die from it?
Well I am not Suzanne - but plenty of medical evidence showing healthy people get the flu.
Believe me, I do notifications for them as part of my job and I get fed up with them by end of winter.
As i said earlier in thread, the majority of flu notifications I do are for young healthy people - precisely because they are the demographic least likely to have had the vaccine.6 -
paperpudding wrote: »@suzannesimmons3 what medical evidence do you have that "Healthy" people even get the flu much less die from it?
Well I am not Suzanne - but plenty of medical evidence showing healthy people get the flu.
Believe me, I do notifications for them as part of my job and I get fed up with them by end of winter.
As i said earlier in thread, the majority of flu notifications I do are for young healthy people - precisely because they are the demographic least likely to have had the vaccine.
Please post your medical evidence showing that healthy people get the flu.
Thanks1 -
You will have to take my word for it that I work in a medical centre ( have mentioned it several times here over the years so there is that) and that I do notifications for communicable diseases branch as part of my job.
Obviously, for confidentiality reasons, I cannot provide actual proof on a public forum.8 -
paperpudding wrote: »You will have to take my word for it that I work in a medical centre ( have mentioned it several times here over the years so there is that) and that I do notifications for communicable diseases branch as part of my job.
Obviously, for confidentiality reasons, I cannot provide actual proof on a public forum.
I am not asking for personal medical profiles of people that you know. I do not think completely healthy people show up with the flu but I would like to see research that questions my position and especially would like to know the Vitamin D levels.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »You will have to take my word for it that I work in a medical centre ( have mentioned it several times here over the years so there is that) and that I do notifications for communicable diseases branch as part of my job.
Obviously, for confidentiality reasons, I cannot provide actual proof on a public forum.
I am not asking for personal medical profiles of people that you know. I do not think completely healthy people show up with the flu but I would like to see research that questions my position and especially would like to know the Vitamin D levels.
As I say, can only give my own experience - impossible to give research supporting that I did many influenza notifications of healthy young people- you will have to take my word for it.
It certainly was the case, whether you think it or not
and No I do not know all their Vitamin D levels - but I do know many were young men who work in outdoor jobs and I live in a country town in a dry sunny area of Australia - so very unlikely they were low in Vitamin D.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »You will have to take my word for it that I work in a medical centre ( have mentioned it several times here over the years so there is that) and that I do notifications for communicable diseases branch as part of my job.
Obviously, for confidentiality reasons, I cannot provide actual proof on a public forum.
I am not asking for personal medical profiles of people that you know. I do not think completely healthy people show up with the flu but I would like to see research that questions my position and especially would like to know the Vitamin D levels.
Yes, Gale, whether you like or not, health people do get the flu. About 25% of the people in this study had no concomitant disease, meaning they are healthy. The majority of those that did, had asthma, which still doesn't mean that they are not healthy.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0906695#results
There are more. I'm just no sure it'll stop you from bleating on about your latest hypothesis du jour.
And maybe your vit d narrative isn't so sound either:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28362550/?i=6&from=vit d and influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27798334/?i=10&from=vit d and influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28719693/?i=1&from=vit d and influenza
Do you have any data stating that healthy people never get the flu or Vit D protects against the flu better than flu vaccine? If not please stop posting your nonsense.15 -
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You can't boost your immune system with vitamins anyways https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/immune-system-myths-boost/2
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suzannesimmons3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »You will have to take my word for it that I work in a medical centre ( have mentioned it several times here over the years so there is that) and that I do notifications for communicable diseases branch as part of my job.
Obviously, for confidentiality reasons, I cannot provide actual proof on a public forum.
I am not asking for personal medical profiles of people that you know. I do not think completely healthy people show up with the flu but I would like to see research that questions my position and especially would like to know the Vitamin D levels.
Yes, Gale, whether you like or not, health people do get the flu. About 25% of the people in this study had no concomitant disease, meaning they are healthy. The majority of those that did, had asthma, which still doesn't mean that they are not healthy.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0906695#results
There are more. I'm just no sure it'll stop you from bleating on about your latest hypothesis du jour.
And maybe your vit d narrative isn't so sound either:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28362550/?i=6&from=vit d and influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27798334/?i=10&from=vit d and influenza
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28719693/?i=1&from=vit d and influenza
Do you have any data stating that healthy people never get the flu or Vit D protects against the flu better than flu vaccine? If not please stop posting your nonsense.
Thanks. I decided not to waste energy with someone who will never be satisfied with anything else but his own woo agenda
Found a Mercola article saying Vitamin d supplements are better than vaccines so that's probably where he got his info.12 -
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For them. I see no problem with them, have no negative reactions, and if it keeps me from getting sick even just one time a year, it's worth it to me.
Some people don't want them for thier own personal reason, I don't have a problem with that. Thier choice, thier business.4 -
VeronicaA76 wrote: »For them. I see no problem with them, have no negative reactions, and if it keeps me from getting sick even just one time a year, it's worth it to me.
Some people don't want them for thier own personal reason, I don't have a problem with that. Thier choice, thier business.
Except that it's not "their business". Those choices affect everyone. If I want to burn hazardous waste in my back yard or dump mercury in a river, it is not a decision that affects only me--it affects the entire surrounding area.
If someone wants it to be "their choice", then they must take "their responsibility" and remove themselves from society. That is truly standing up for your "personal" choice. Otherwise, you are just a free rider, taking advantage of society without taking accountability.8 -
VeronicaA76 wrote: »For them. I see no problem with them, have no negative reactions, and if it keeps me from getting sick even just one time a year, it's worth it to me.
Some people don't want them for thier own personal reason, I don't have a problem with that. Thier choice, thier business.
It's not just their choice when people who legitimately can't get vaccinated or who are immunocomprised might get sick because of them. Their decision affects other people.
I get vaccinated myself, but I'm still an immunocompromised person. Everyone who knows me gets vaccinated.3 -
nbcnews.com/id/44275043/ns/health-cold_and_flu/t/why-some-people-dont-get-flu/#.WZopsj6GPIU
It seems those who do not get the flu really do get the flu.
As far if Vitamin D3 is effective as a flu shot can not be proven one way or the other but some studies shows Vit D can lessen the risk for sickness.
npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/02/16/515428944/a-bit-more-vitamin-d-might-reduce-winter-colds-and-flu
For those who like to mention Mercola over and over here is some info from him dated 2011.
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/22/new-study-shows-only-half-of-people-infected-with-flu-virus-actually-get-sick--why.aspx
As was stated by another to get a flu shot or not get a flu shot is the choice and business of each person.
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