Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
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We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
The implication that expecting men not to harass women is "emasculating" them is so telling.
Pretty much what I was thinking.2 -
It's too bad many of us men are not quick-witted enough to be polite, or for that matter, appear intelligent, and many of us are just really really stupid/self-centered/disrespectfull.
I don't think there is a good/easy way of dealing with the idiots that say/do these types of things because the people who do them aren't capable of conversation. It's like dealing with North Korea. Take heart in knowing natural selection will probably deal with it.1 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
No, that's normal human behavior. I nod or say hi/good morning to anyone who crosses my path when I'm running. That's not the same as cat-calling.4 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
I always acknowledge and respond to a greeting when I'm out and about, and usually initiate them. I don't consider it harassment in the slightest.1 -
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I've seen a lot on this thread about this being a way men behave in groups, but I've only been followed, cat-called, grabbed, told exactly what sexual things were going to be done to me, or shown an erect penis by lone men. I don't think the "pack mentality" theory even begins to explain that behavior.
I generally feel safe, believe it or not, but one or more of the above happens pretty frequently. It's a disgusting and terrifying feeling when it does.3 -
Several years ago I stopped running in public next to roads. OMG, the creeps that would hoot and holler! But the scary part is when the occasional predator would pull up and ask if I needed a ride or something. I'd say, "no thanks" and these dudes would often flip out and start swearing and peel out, throwing up dust, etc. That happened several times.
Once, this guy drove off all pissed off, but then changed his mind and circled back full speed. I saw him coming and ran down an embankment and up a small hill. As his truck screeched to a stop I heard him yell, "B----!" Luckily, this guy was either not in good enough shape to get out and chase me, or he was too lazy to. That was the last time I ran on public roads. Most people behave, but since drivers are a diverse bunch, all kinds of creepers will be on the road along with the normal people.
Now that I trail run, I haven't had any creepy run-ins in over 14 years. Just other like-minded fitness people for the most part. There's always a danger that some trail creeper could get me, but there just aren't as many creepers willing to travel miles on foot to stalk their prey than there are creepers who can just easily drive down the road randomly screaming at women. Stay safe out there, ladies!9 -
canadianlbs wrote: »briansolomon7863 wrote: »I agree 100%. It is about how we raise our children.
well, if that's the case they were raising kids wrong when my parents' generation were kids because men of that age were making themselves a nuisance to me when i was 18. it's not about the internet or instagram. this *kitten* was happening before those two things even were.
That is true, it happens in every generation. I would also say that a boy becomes a man only when a man is needed. That is why you see some many 30 yo fathers dressing like their six yo sons with crooked baseball caps, low pants, $1000 tennis shoes with laces not tied, etc... This is only one example though. There are plenty of guys who never grow up and dress nice. I think it is still a problem that effects all socio-economic groups in our country.
I think the media really spurs it one because they push "youth" as the most valuable "commodity." -- or close to it anyway.2 -
Err on the side of treating women like you'd treat another guy and I think you'll be fine.
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
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You can take issue with human psychology all you want. I don't care.TeacupsAndToning wrote: »I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
Besides, I did not say they (as in all) would stop. I said many would.
Argue it all you want. This is what I do.
You will not change the wolves into puppies just because you don't like them.
But you can make them more likely to pick other prey.
Your last sentence is very telling. It says to anyone listening to make sure they harass some other girl, hurt some other girl, etc. How about we remind our young men that women are NOT prey? It's a lot better then "make them more likely to pick other prey."18 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »briansolomon7863 wrote: »Err on the side of treating women like you'd treat another guy and I think you'll be fine.
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
I think that by saying "treat women like you'd treat another guy" was more meant as - treat them as if they weren't just a sex object.
Because that is something I agree with.
I would agree with that too. I think the thing is, don't treat anyone like any type of object. Treat them like a human being.1 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
I go hiking, running and mountain biking on trails. I primarily see men out there. I get the same treatment my husband gets as far as I can tell. When I come upon someone I generally smile and say hi or wave. I'm not on the defensive. The guys I see out there aren't hollering, "Hey baby" or wolf whistling at me. They're just passing by, getting their fitness on, and offering polite greetings as they pass. It's definitely a way different feeling than when I get those suggestive (and often downright repulsive) "greetings" from creepers on the street. It's a different group of guys I guess...?
ETA: Something went wrong with the quoting feature...1 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
I would agree with that too. I think the thing is, don't treat anyone like any type of object. Treat them like a human being.
Yes, I was basically using it as a shorthand.
Obviously misunderstandings are always possible, but if you start from a place of respect then you usually can't go too far wrong.
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Have you ever noticed that the young, good.looking ones never give you any trouble lol3
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I feel a little bad here because this has never happened to me, not running, not walking, not standing in line at the supermarket, so I'm not sure if I'm just really unattractive or if I live in an area where the men show more respect for ladies (not that this behavior is good, I'm just shocked that it appears so common from this thread & it has very literally NEVER happened to me). Anyway, I'm sorry this is something you have to endure or that anyone has to deal with and I think it's wrong that people are suggesting there's something you can do or that it's some vibe you're putting off which "allows" for this type of harassment. It's not your fault. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and the words that come out of their mouths.8
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MotherOfSharpei wrote: »I respond with silence or "*kitten* off", a flip of my own middle finger, or other derogatory/insulting comment aimed at their manhood. I find it amusing to get the upper hand because they are often not expecting an aggressive response.
I did this once (flipped the bird on a run) and a car full of men who had just whistled and yelled out the window at me slammed on their brakes and pulled a U-turn in my direction. I didn't want to find out what they were going to do so I literally hid on a side street for 15 minutes until I felt safe.
I've also been approached while running in broad daylight at a busy intersection and threatened with rape. I called the police when I got home, he was arrested a few weeks later and I testified with multiple other women in his trial. Crazy ordeal, and he only got convicted with disturbing the peace.
I won't let those instances stop me from running outdoors, but now I think twice about ANY interactions with people I don't know.11 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Sorry, that's terrible. Everyone deserves to not be harassed.
But, since I'm learning here, what is the appropriate way to give a compliment or break the ice? Is there one?
Smile. Say "good morning." Repeat if you see her again. If she likes you, she'll reply. If not, there ya go.
Certainly don't follow her, or gawk, or holler 'compliments' at her in front of a group of guys.4 -
Strong_Savannah wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I agree with what you are saying, but I'm not sure how I can possibly display sheep-like body language when I am running at like a 9min pace, sweating - I am certainly NOT smiling. Guess I just have to remember, shoulders back, gaze forward. Generally I do have a RBF in public, though.
It's not your smile they're looking at.
And it's not up to you to adjust your behavior because they behave badly.
The only thing that ever seemed to make a practical difference (back when I was younger and this kind of thing happened) was crossing the street to avoid groups of men.
Construction sites were the worst as I recall. There would be a LOT of guys and it just felt intimidating.
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Definitely always carry something to protect yourself! If I were you, I'd tell each one of them a thing or two! I work at a gym and I literally had a man 50+ years older than me BEG me to move 500 miles away with him and to be his "housewife." He literally harassed me for over a month; I almost had to press harassment charges. There are a few other older men who either have told me they find a part of my body sexy and they want me to "flaunt" it for them when they walk by or they've asked me to come to their house later. People can be disgusting!1
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I live in a really safe city but carry pepper spray constantly. Bought it off amazon, has the pink dye they use in fire alarm pull stations--if I have to use it, I'm leaving my mark to make it easier for the cops to find them! (And it supports breast cancer research.)
Because of the cat calls and cars trolling by when I'm out at night. Whether exercising or running errands. Often teenage looking boys in groups in a car. Learning their good habits early, I suppose.
when I didn't respond to the "Hey B*tch" Friday night, the one screaming at the top of his lungs then started insulting me and called me a fat, ugly pig. He was still screaming at me while they drove off after the light changed and I gave no sign I heard a thing. But I felt really unsafe.
It really does frustrate me that I have to cover up in the summer heat to have less "risk" of some strange guy deciding he gets to comment on my body. I should be able to wear a sports bra and shorts (athletic wear) without some men/boys taking it as an invitation to be rude, hostile and just plain gross.
And when I say stuff back? I get something along the lines of "B*tch, learn to take a compliment." Yeah ... screaming about my a** or b**bs from a car is NOT a compliment! And you know it.4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Sorry, that's terrible. Everyone deserves to not be harassed.
But, since I'm learning here, what is the appropriate way to give a compliment or break the ice? Is there one?
The setting needs to be appropriate. Interrupting someone's workout like OP's example is rude and scary. And you're not going to get anywhere with that approach.
There are tons of folks in bars, clubs and on dating apps hoping for people to break the ice. Running up along side someone who is running, and the. Going back to have a laugh with your friends? Bad judgment, creepy and not boyfriend material.3 -
You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
This is what bothers me--that all this is necessary. And to go out, have a run, and come back safe and sound again I have to mentally prepare myself to not look like a "victim." So, in addition to pace, heart rate and route (oh, and not getting run over by cars making right hand turns without looking) I also have to have a "perpetual b*tch face?" And look like and move like I don't want to be messed with? While running?
That's *kitten*! How about the *kitten* in this world get their crap together and just stop the bad behavior? Why should we have to alter everything we do to not get harassed or worse? How about stopping the harassment? There are way, way more good men than bad men in the world--things don't have to be this way.8 -
Check out this article printed in Runner's World a few months ago: https://www.runnersworld.com/running-while-female It's a good read, and very accurate. A lot of men don't even realize the harassment/abuse women get while running - which amazes me. I've had a few encounters as well. I don't appreciate it. Crazy you have to worry about your personal safety when you just want to get a run in.
Great article, Becky--thanks for sharing! Sadly, I can definitely relate.
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You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
Is this the same wide you mentioned on another thread who didn't realize she was pregnant until the baby came and whom you praised for not gaining weight while pregnant and becoming a piggy?8 -
[quote="Mr_Healthy_Habits;c-40298775"
I think generally speaking, women like to feel admired, but not always, and not by everyone. [/quote]
This type of thinking is a huge part of the problem.6 -
[quote="Mr_Healthy_Habits;c-40298775"
I think generally speaking, women like to feel admired, but not always, and not by everyone.
This type of thinking is a huge part of the problem. [/quote]
Exactly. The only admiration i need is from my husband.
I may have liked attention from teenage boys when i was an insecure teenage girl, but that need disappeared when i grew up and became an adult..
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DamienAngelica wrote: »It's harassment, plain and simple, and it's not your fault. Ever. Ignoring it is probably the best thing to do, unfortunately, because if you respond with aggression, they might, too. You never know. Women have been killed for less, unfortunately.
I really wish the men reading this post would just read, maybe learn a thing or two about what it's like to walk through this world as a woman, and move on. All the "Hey, this is the solution!" (which is usually just telling a woman how to change her behavior because those men, you know they just can't help themselves.) or "Gosh, I didn't realize men did that! I'm one of the good guys, I swear!" (A thousand shades of #notallmen.) is not helpful. At all.
Once again, this happens to men as well. Woman need to learn to respect boundaries at well.
Men get unwanted advances, groped, and raped as well.
It's a major flaw and issue within a person, not a certain gender.
Yes, men can experience assault, harassment and violence. I know, I work with survivors of violence.
But to add this into a conversation about a level of harassment where the overwhelming majority of harassees are women really show you don't understand the conversation. And to be honest, it shows a lack of respect for what women are experiencing because you just tried to shift the conversation to focus on men.
This isn't the time or space to play Devil's Advocate or talk about the violence that women inflict of men. It is infinitesimal compared to the other way around. While most men do not commit acts of violence, the majority of incidents we're talking about here are committed by men.
It all needs to stop.
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I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
Personally, I would not count that as harassment. It's generally how I try to interact with men and women. Though I am more outwardly friendly to women because I don't see them as a threat.
A little nod of recognition. If you're not getting looks back from women, it's because they're on the defensive. And when the see you, they don't see a fellow runner or athlete, they see someone who might (at best) try to harass them, or (at worst) try to hurt them.
It's not personal at that point, it's survival.0
https://youtu.be/WggsJDJLxlU?t=5
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