Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
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We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
The implication that expecting men not to harass women is "emasculating" them is so telling.
Pretty much what I was thinking.2 -
It's too bad many of us men are not quick-witted enough to be polite, or for that matter, appear intelligent, and many of us are just really really stupid/self-centered/disrespectfull.
I don't think there is a good/easy way of dealing with the idiots that say/do these types of things because the people who do them aren't capable of conversation. It's like dealing with North Korea. Take heart in knowing natural selection will probably deal with it.1 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
No, that's normal human behavior. I nod or say hi/good morning to anyone who crosses my path when I'm running. That's not the same as cat-calling.4 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
I always acknowledge and respond to a greeting when I'm out and about, and usually initiate them. I don't consider it harassment in the slightest.1 -
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I've seen a lot on this thread about this being a way men behave in groups, but I've only been followed, cat-called, grabbed, told exactly what sexual things were going to be done to me, or shown an erect penis by lone men. I don't think the "pack mentality" theory even begins to explain that behavior.
I generally feel safe, believe it or not, but one or more of the above happens pretty frequently. It's a disgusting and terrifying feeling when it does.3 -
Several years ago I stopped running in public next to roads. OMG, the creeps that would hoot and holler! But the scary part is when the occasional predator would pull up and ask if I needed a ride or something. I'd say, "no thanks" and these dudes would often flip out and start swearing and peel out, throwing up dust, etc. That happened several times.
Once, this guy drove off all pissed off, but then changed his mind and circled back full speed. I saw him coming and ran down an embankment and up a small hill. As his truck screeched to a stop I heard him yell, "B----!" Luckily, this guy was either not in good enough shape to get out and chase me, or he was too lazy to. That was the last time I ran on public roads. Most people behave, but since drivers are a diverse bunch, all kinds of creepers will be on the road along with the normal people.
Now that I trail run, I haven't had any creepy run-ins in over 14 years. Just other like-minded fitness people for the most part. There's always a danger that some trail creeper could get me, but there just aren't as many creepers willing to travel miles on foot to stalk their prey than there are creepers who can just easily drive down the road randomly screaming at women. Stay safe out there, ladies!9 -
canadianlbs wrote: »briansolomon7863 wrote: »I agree 100%. It is about how we raise our children.
well, if that's the case they were raising kids wrong when my parents' generation were kids because men of that age were making themselves a nuisance to me when i was 18. it's not about the internet or instagram. this *kitten* was happening before those two things even were.
That is true, it happens in every generation. I would also say that a boy becomes a man only when a man is needed. That is why you see some many 30 yo fathers dressing like their six yo sons with crooked baseball caps, low pants, $1000 tennis shoes with laces not tied, etc... This is only one example though. There are plenty of guys who never grow up and dress nice. I think it is still a problem that effects all socio-economic groups in our country.
I think the media really spurs it one because they push "youth" as the most valuable "commodity." -- or close to it anyway.2 -
Err on the side of treating women like you'd treat another guy and I think you'll be fine.
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
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TeacupsAndToning wrote: »I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
Besides, I did not say they (as in all) would stop. I said many would.
Argue it all you want. This is what I do.
You will not change the wolves into puppies just because you don't like them.
But you can make them more likely to pick other prey.
Your last sentence is very telling. It says to anyone listening to make sure they harass some other girl, hurt some other girl, etc. How about we remind our young men that women are NOT prey? It's a lot better then "make them more likely to pick other prey."18 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »briansolomon7863 wrote: »Err on the side of treating women like you'd treat another guy and I think you'll be fine.
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
I think that by saying "treat women like you'd treat another guy" was more meant as - treat them as if they weren't just a sex object.
Because that is something I agree with.
I would agree with that too. I think the thing is, don't treat anyone like any type of object. Treat them like a human being.1 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
I'm not 100% sure on this. Much of the time, it has been my experience, that if you treat a woman like a man, they think you are hitting on them, or man-explaining.
But most guys you can say "hi" to when running or cycling, strike up a conversation with in line at the store or whatever. They don't think you are trying to hit on them or explain anything to them.
Just my experience.
I go hiking, running and mountain biking on trails. I primarily see men out there. I get the same treatment my husband gets as far as I can tell. When I come upon someone I generally smile and say hi or wave. I'm not on the defensive. The guys I see out there aren't hollering, "Hey baby" or wolf whistling at me. They're just passing by, getting their fitness on, and offering polite greetings as they pass. It's definitely a way different feeling than when I get those suggestive (and often downright repulsive) "greetings" from creepers on the street. It's a different group of guys I guess...?
ETA: Something went wrong with the quoting feature...1 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
I would agree with that too. I think the thing is, don't treat anyone like any type of object. Treat them like a human being.
Yes, I was basically using it as a shorthand.
Obviously misunderstandings are always possible, but if you start from a place of respect then you usually can't go too far wrong.
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Have you ever noticed that the young, good.looking ones never give you any trouble lol3
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I feel a little bad here because this has never happened to me, not running, not walking, not standing in line at the supermarket, so I'm not sure if I'm just really unattractive or if I live in an area where the men show more respect for ladies (not that this behavior is good, I'm just shocked that it appears so common from this thread & it has very literally NEVER happened to me). Anyway, I'm sorry this is something you have to endure or that anyone has to deal with and I think it's wrong that people are suggesting there's something you can do or that it's some vibe you're putting off which "allows" for this type of harassment. It's not your fault. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and the words that come out of their mouths.8
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MotherOfSharpei wrote: »I respond with silence or "*kitten* off", a flip of my own middle finger, or other derogatory/insulting comment aimed at their manhood. I find it amusing to get the upper hand because they are often not expecting an aggressive response.
I did this once (flipped the bird on a run) and a car full of men who had just whistled and yelled out the window at me slammed on their brakes and pulled a U-turn in my direction. I didn't want to find out what they were going to do so I literally hid on a side street for 15 minutes until I felt safe.
I've also been approached while running in broad daylight at a busy intersection and threatened with rape. I called the police when I got home, he was arrested a few weeks later and I testified with multiple other women in his trial. Crazy ordeal, and he only got convicted with disturbing the peace.
I won't let those instances stop me from running outdoors, but now I think twice about ANY interactions with people I don't know.11 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Sorry, that's terrible. Everyone deserves to not be harassed.
But, since I'm learning here, what is the appropriate way to give a compliment or break the ice? Is there one?
Smile. Say "good morning." Repeat if you see her again. If she likes you, she'll reply. If not, there ya go.
Certainly don't follow her, or gawk, or holler 'compliments' at her in front of a group of guys.4 -
Strong_Savannah wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I agree with what you are saying, but I'm not sure how I can possibly display sheep-like body language when I am running at like a 9min pace, sweating - I am certainly NOT smiling. Guess I just have to remember, shoulders back, gaze forward. Generally I do have a RBF in public, though.
It's not your smile they're looking at.
And it's not up to you to adjust your behavior because they behave badly.
The only thing that ever seemed to make a practical difference (back when I was younger and this kind of thing happened) was crossing the street to avoid groups of men.
Construction sites were the worst as I recall. There would be a LOT of guys and it just felt intimidating.
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