Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
Replies
-
ttippie2000 wrote: »ttippie2000 wrote: »So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."
As usual a man trying to "mansplain" something that doesn't need to be. I was responding to another post that basically said that this is the way things are. As someone who has to deal with this regularly, even at my advanced age, I think I have a little more experience than you.
Yes, yes. As a man I lack agency. It is an argument common to all identity politics: ‘You must understand where I’m coming from, BUT you can NEVER understand where I’m coming from. Therefore shut up.’ It is a way of looking at things that is inherently divisive.
But tell me, have you ever placed your life in danger to help anybody in need? Have you ever waded into a crowd of 10 men to rescue one from getting beaten to death? Have you ever stepped between an old woman and a knife wielding attacker? Have you ever stopped a stranger from being raped?
I have. The first time I was a high school student in 1982 while I was driving home from a piano lesson. My daydream about the harmony of Bill Evans was interrupted by the sight of a woman in a nearby alley fighting valiantly but without skill for a few seconds until the perpetrator’s straight right sent her, stunned, crashing to the ground. Then I saw the buttons on her blouse scatter across the sidewalk. My mouth dropped open, and I turned the steering wheel into a U-turn and and lurched to a stop nearby. I heard a voice in my head, that of my father, admonishing me, “You damned fool. You’re gonna get yourself shot.”
“Well, then I had better close the gap quick, “ I thought as I filled my lungs with air and threw open the door. I was able to sprint the 15 feet gap as he focused on taking his own pants down. I shoved his shoulder, pushing him off her. As he turned to rise I did not wait for an explanation. I stepped over her sinking my weight into a blow that broke his nose. Training and reactions took over and threw a right elbow, shattering his optical orbit. As my elbow recoiled I hooked my hand behind his neck and launched a knee into his groin that lifted him off the ground. He went down in a heap, clutching his groin. I kneeled down to her to render what aid I could. As she regained consciousness I tried to reassure her she was safe. She was pretty shook up.
If you allowed yourself a bit of civility you might profit in that kind. We are not your enemies.
Okay? And? I appreciate a colorfully-narrated humble brag as much as the next gal, but I don't see what this story has to do with the thread or the topic at hand, other than confirming that women are in danger just walking down the street.22 -
ttippie2000 wrote: »ttippie2000 wrote: »So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."
As usual a man trying to "mansplain" something that doesn't need to be. I was responding to another post that basically said that this is the way things are. As someone who has to deal with this regularly, even at my advanced age, I think I have a little more experience than you.
Yes, yes. As a man I lack agency. It is an argument common to all identity politics: ‘You must understand where I’m coming from, BUT you can NEVER understand where I’m coming from. Therefore shut up.’ It is a way of looking at things that is inherently divisive.
But tell me, have you ever placed your life in danger to help anybody in need? Have you ever waded into a crowd of 10 men to rescue one from getting beaten to death? Have you ever stepped between an old woman and a knife wielding attacker? Have you ever stopped a stranger from being raped?
I have. The first time I was a high school student in 1982 while I was driving home from a piano lesson. My daydream about the harmony of Bill Evans was interrupted by the sight of a woman in a nearby alley fighting valiantly but without skill for a few seconds until the perpetrator’s straight right sent her, stunned, crashing to the ground. Then I saw the buttons on her blouse scatter across the sidewalk. My mouth dropped open, and I turned the steering wheel into a U-turn and and lurched to a stop nearby. I heard a voice in my head, that of my father, admonishing me, “You damned fool. You’re gonna get yourself shot.”
“Well, then I had better close the gap quick, “ I thought as I filled my lungs with air and threw open the door. I was able to sprint the 15 feet gap as he focused on taking his own pants down. I shoved his shoulder, pushing him off her. As he turned to rise I did not wait for an explanation. I stepped over her sinking my weight into a blow that broke his nose. Training and reactions took over and threw a right elbow, shattering his optical orbit. As my elbow recoiled I hooked my hand behind his neck and launched a knee into his groin that lifted him off the ground. He went down in a heap, clutching his groin. I kneeled down to her to render what aid I could. As she regained consciousness I tried to reassure her she was safe. She was pretty shook up.
If you allowed yourself a bit of civility you might profit in that kind. We are not your enemies.
that was a brave and selfless action and she was very lucky that you were there to intervene to help. i'm just not sure how that story is relevant to this overall discussion. i don't mean that in a nasty way at all. i think, actually, it reinforces the feeling of helplessness that people often have when in a situation of harassment and unknown variables. sure, most cat callers are just vocal, but the possibility of escalation is always going to be lurking.7 -
Cutaway_Collar wrote: »OP, I see from your profile picture that you are quite pretty.
So this kind of treatment you are getting is just expected. It is not right but that is how the cookie crumbles. It happens to all pretty women around the world.
My wife deals with it. She says men roll down windows while jammed in traffic and they whistle or just make kissing faces and all kinds of effery. She gets followed in grocery stores. She is hourglass shaped and she gets comments about her butt. When I am with her, she gets stares. That is just how it is.
In NYC, women get followed.... and they need to hide in duane reade pretending to shop and take another door out.
My advice to you... don't run or hike in secluded areas. You never know what happens out there. Be careful.
So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
37 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.
This is so true.
It is not about the attractiveness of women.
I am a man. I have been in groups where someone has harassed a stranger on the street.
It's about being macho. Being the alpha who will confront someone else. All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
It's about showing that you have the guts to open your mouth to a stranger and say something that is liable to provoke a reaction.
It is about showing that I am not afraid of you and I am not afraid of your reaction. But, instead, you should be a little intimidated by me.
I kinda think that is the definition of bullying. No. Not kinda. i definitely think that is the definition of bullying.
Is there any reaction/lack thereof that would have made him think twice about it? That would be a useful data point in this discussion
For what it's worth, I think it's important to have both sides in on this discussion. Decent folks need to look out for each other, and figure out how to reduce the impact of the non decent ones.1 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
That's what I was thinking. It's victim blaming, pure and simple.
Guess what: It's not someone's fault if they get catcalled, or attacked, or assaulted, or anything like that. It's the jerks and abusers who feel that they have the right to do it because we live in a society where people prefer the victim rather than actually addressing the real problem of how men are taught that they can do whatever they please and women just need to change and accept it.5 -
cmriverside wrote: »GiddyupTim wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.
This is so true.
It is not about the attractiveness of women.
I am a man. I have been in groups where someone has harassed a stranger on the street.
It's about being macho. Being the alpha who will confront someone else. All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
It's about showing that you have the guts to open your mouth to a stranger and say something that is liable to provoke a reaction.
It is about showing that I am not afraid of you and I am not afraid of your reaction. But, instead, you should be a little intimidated by me.
I kinda think that is the definition of bullying. No. Not kinda. i definitely think that is the definition of bullying.
Well, the four incidents I listed above were when the guy was by himself - and only one of those incidents was in an isolated place.
So I guess this is your way of saying to us to whom this happens, "Don't flatter yourself, you aren't all that? We are just playing Alpha reindeer games. "
Sorry.
I did not mean that at all.
I was only referencing the last statement in the thread.
I simply meant it is not about women being women. I meant it is about men being aggressive and being jerks.
I only thought being honest about what I have perceived as a male might be helpful.
But I'll stay out now.5 -
DamienAngelica wrote: »DamienAngelica wrote: »It's harassment, plain and simple, and it's not your fault. Ever. Ignoring it is probably the best thing to do, unfortunately, because if you respond with aggression, they might, too. You never know. Women have been killed for less, unfortunately.
I really wish the men reading this post would just read, maybe learn a thing or two about what it's like to walk through this world as a woman, and move on. All the "Hey, this is the solution!" (which is usually just telling a woman how to change her behavior because those men, you know they just can't help themselves.) or "Gosh, I didn't realize men did that! I'm one of the good guys, I swear!" (A thousand shades of #notallmen.) is not helpful. At all.
Once again, this happens to men as well. Woman need to learn to respect boundaries at well.
Men get unwanted advances, groped, and raped as well.
It's a major flaw and issue within a person, not a certain gender.
I never said it didn't happen to men, but this was a post about it happening to a woman and the original poster asked for opinions from women. If men want to discuss this happening to them, then I'd suggest starting a new topic as the insistence of "It happens to men, too!" is derailing and shows a lack of respect to the original poster.
You made a comment specifically about "the men reading this post need to learn". I read it and made a rebuttal of your comment being false and many of us regardless of gender know what she went through.
Hardly derailing
3 -
Be direct. Ignore them or if they engage tell them to leave you the F alone. Don't worry about being nice. F nice.3
-
GiddyupTim wrote: »
Sorry.
I did not mean that at all.
I was only referencing the last statement in the thread.
I simply meant it is not about women being women. I meant it is about men being aggressive and being jerks.
I only thought being honest about what I have perceived as a male might be helpful.
But I'll stay out now.
I understand that you were trying to help, and not necessarily looking to blame women. Please understand though, one of the major problems with this way of thinking is that 9/10 guys may be harmless *kitten* looking for a reaction who will back off, but as a woman you never know when you'll run into that 1/10 guy who is actually dangerous and takes your assertive posture as a personal affront. Believe me, as someone who is never shy about sticking up for and defending myself I used to think that women needed to seem less approachable, or have thicker skin. Catcalls were annoying but never scared me. Then one day I literally ran into one of those dangerous types, and the only thing that assured a good outcome in my case was by running to a bar and being saved by a large group of bystanders.
So sure, that guy catcalling me is most likely a harmless jerk and I still take the precautions I can, but inside I know that there's a chance that this situation is a dangerous one, and it ruins my day. It's not a joke to me, and it makes me paranoid and hostile during what should be a decent run.
It's up to everyone to call out this behavior, because it's not as harmless as it seems. That includes men not excusing that behavior in other men, or suggesting that women can stop it simply by seeming tough or bitchy.8 -
Ok. If I want to talk to a girl, what is the right way?? After reading all these comments I feel I am harrasing by just saying hello.3
-
clayelliott847 wrote: »Ok. If I want to talk to a girl, what is the right way?? After reading all these comments I feel I am harrasing by just saying hello.
Not when someone is working out.7 -
cmriverside wrote: »GiddyupTim wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.
This is so true.
It is not about the attractiveness of women.
I am a man. I have been in groups where someone has harassed a stranger on the street.
It's about being macho. Being the alpha who will confront someone else. All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
It's about showing that you have the guts to open your mouth to a stranger and say something that is liable to provoke a reaction.
It is about showing that I am not afraid of you and I am not afraid of your reaction. But, instead, you should be a little intimidated by me.
I kinda think that is the definition of bullying. No. Not kinda. i definitely think that is the definition of bullying.
Well, the four incidents I listed above were when the guy was by himself - and only one of those incidents was in an isolated place.
So I guess this is your way of saying to us to whom this happens, "Don't flatter yourself, you aren't all that? We are just playing Alpha reindeer games. "
Well, we men are playing Aplha reindeer games. It really isn't about you. You are just a prop in the play (like going to a play) these socially inept men from some specific sub-culture are performing for each other.2 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »
Sorry.
I did not mean that at all.
I was only referencing the last statement in the thread.
I simply meant it is not about women being women. I meant it is about men being aggressive and being jerks.
I only thought being honest about what I have perceived as a male might be helpful.
But I'll stay out now.
I understand that you were trying to help, and not necessarily looking to blame women. Please understand though, one of the major problems with this way of thinking is that 9/10 guys may be harmless *kitten* looking for a reaction who will back off, but as a woman you never know when you'll run into that 1/10 guy who is actually dangerous and takes your assertive posture as a personal affront. Believe me, as someone who is never shy about sticking up for and defending myself I used to think that women needed to seem less approachable, or have thicker skin. Catcalls were annoying but never scared me. Then one day I literally ran into one of those dangerous types, and the only thing that assured a good outcome in my case was by running to a bar and being saved by a large group of bystanders.
So sure, that guy catcalling me is most likely a harmless jerk and I still take the precautions I can, but inside I know that there's a chance that this situation is a dangerous one, and it ruins my day. It's not a joke to me, and it makes me paranoid and hostile during what should be a decent run.
It's up to everyone to call out this behavior, because it's not as harmless as it seems. That includes men not excusing that behavior in other men, or suggesting that women can stop it simply by seeming tough or bitchy.
I was not excusing anything.
I simply thought that there is this mistaken impression that this kind of behavior is about crude, irrepressible, male sexual impulses.
In my experience, the average, normal male can control their sexual urges. What they don't control -- too often -- is their ego and their aggressive impulses, and that is what harassing women is. It is aggression, in these cases directed towards women. Not attraction.
And, FYI, I actually do not believe that the best solution is for individual women to stand up to these perhaps dangerous bullies.5 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »
Sorry.
I did not mean that at all.
I was only referencing the last statement in the thread.
I simply meant it is not about women being women. I meant it is about men being aggressive and being jerks.
I only thought being honest about what I have perceived as a male might be helpful.
But I'll stay out now.
I understand that you were trying to help, and not necessarily looking to blame women. Please understand though, one of the major problems with this way of thinking is that 9/10 guys may be harmless *kitten* looking for a reaction who will back off, but as a woman you never know when you'll run into that 1/10 guy who is actually dangerous and takes your assertive posture as a personal affront. Believe me, as someone who is never shy about sticking up for and defending myself I used to think that women needed to seem less approachable, or have thicker skin. Catcalls were annoying but never scared me. Then one day I literally ran into one of those dangerous types, and the only thing that assured a good outcome in my case was by running to a bar and being saved by a large group of bystanders.
So sure, that guy catcalling me is most likely a harmless jerk and I still take the precautions I can, but inside I know that there's a chance that this situation is a dangerous one, and it ruins my day. It's not a joke to me, and it makes me paranoid and hostile during what should be a decent run.
It's up to everyone to call out this behavior, because it's not as harmless as it seems. That includes men not excusing that behavior in other men, or suggesting that women can stop it simply by seeming tough or bitchy.
This same thing goes on with men and other men all the time. Especially young me who don't have an education and believe the only way to get more in life is to take your piece of the pie instead of making the pie bigger for everyone. Or men who are jealous of what you have (or what they think you have) so they out of their way to prove they are tougher than you-- like insulting you in public for no reason but to show off that they can get a way with it while their buddies are there. Seriously it's totally *kitten*. Why do you think men "bulk-up", take martial arts, etc...
I remember one time in high-school this total jerk was messing with me in class for no reason. He was "preppy" and I was a nerd. He kept looking at me and saying "I'm going to kick your *kitten* after school." I was like "what, your aren't serious? Why should we fight I don't even know you." Well, he didn't really reply, just kept looking at me and made aggressive postures toward me. He was sitting in the desk in front of me, but in the row to my right when facing the front of the class. Of course the teacher just ignored everything (I went to public school).
Well, the rest of the day I was trying to figure out how to avoid this guy after school. Then around 6th period (the last class of the day) I heard that an Asian guy stabbed him (he was white). Up to that point in my life, I had never felt so relived as when I heard the was stabbed.
It happens all the time for young adult males too. Seriously, it's a jungle out there.1 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »
I was not excusing anything.
I simply thought that there is this mistaken impression that this kind of behavior is about crude, irrepressible, male sexual impulses.
In my experience, the average, normal male can control their sexual urges. What they don't control -- too often -- is their ego and their aggressive impulses, and that is what harassing women is. It is aggression, in these cases directed towards women. Not attraction.
And, FYI, I actually do not believe that the best solution is for individual women to stand up to these perhaps dangerous bullies.
Sorry, I actually read back and think I mistook your comment for the one you were quoting. I should have addressed it to @cqbkaju. My statement still stands, but I apologize for pinning it to you! I agree with you that it's about aggression.
0 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
This same thing goes on with men and other men all the time. Especially young me who don't have an education and believe the only way to get more in life is to take your piece of the pie instead of making the pie bigger for everyone. Or men who are jealous of what you have (or what they think you have) so they out of their way to prove they are tougher than you-- like insulting you in public for no reason but to show off that they can get a way with it while their buddies are there. Seriously it's totally *kitten*. Why do you think men "bulk-up", take martial arts, etc...
I remember one time in high-school this total jerk was messing with me in class for no reason. He was "preppy" and I was a nerd. He kept looking at me and saying "I'm going to kick your *kitten* after school." I was like "what, your aren't serious? Why should we fight I don't even know you." Well, he didn't really reply, just kept looking at me and made aggressive postures toward me. He was sitting in the desk in front of me, but in the row to my right when facing the front of the class. Of course the teacher just ignored everything (I went to public school).
Well, the rest of the day I was trying to figure out how to avoid this guy after school. Then around 6th period (the last class of the day) I heard that an Asian guy stabbed him (he was white). Up to that point in my life, I had never felt so relived as when I heard the was stabbed.
It happens all the time for young adult males too. Seriously, it's a jungle out there.
We either strive to have a civilized society or we don't. Expecting women to police this kind of behavior isn't helpful.
Neither is calling them "props in a play".6 -
Unfortunately there just isn't an answer that I can think of, you can't control people or their actions unfortunately. Thankfully this kind of behavior is illegal in the workplace, but it's hard to legislate it out on the street, but maybe this type of behavior should be illegal in and outside of the workplace...
As a husband and father, I don't feel it would be to terrible of an idea if the OP had the right to go to the police and have the jerk that ran next to her at the very least slapped with a fine.
I mean sure this opens up us good guys to all sorts of trouble and Bs claims but women shouldn't have to put up with jerks because of this.
It all comes down to how we raise our kids. This guy sounds like some over privileged, spoiled, brat who's gotten away with being able to say and do whatever he's wanted his whole life. Sounds like his parents never kicked his *kitten* when he deserved it. Far too common these days, whatever happened to old school parents...4 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »GiddyupTim wrote: »
Sorry.
I did not mean that at all.
I was only referencing the last statement in the thread.
I simply meant it is not about women being women. I meant it is about men being aggressive and being jerks.
I only thought being honest about what I have perceived as a male might be helpful.
But I'll stay out now.
I understand that you were trying to help, and not necessarily looking to blame women. Please understand though, one of the major problems with this way of thinking is that 9/10 guys may be harmless *kitten* looking for a reaction who will back off, but as a woman you never know when you'll run into that 1/10 guy who is actually dangerous and takes your assertive posture as a personal affront. Believe me, as someone who is never shy about sticking up for and defending myself I used to think that women needed to seem less approachable, or have thicker skin. Catcalls were annoying but never scared me. Then one day I literally ran into one of those dangerous types, and the only thing that assured a good outcome in my case was by running to a bar and being saved by a large group of bystanders.
So sure, that guy catcalling me is most likely a harmless jerk and I still take the precautions I can, but inside I know that there's a chance that this situation is a dangerous one, and it ruins my day. It's not a joke to me, and it makes me paranoid and hostile during what should be a decent run.
It's up to everyone to call out this behavior, because it's not as harmless as it seems. That includes men not excusing that behavior in other men, or suggesting that women can stop it simply by seeming tough or bitchy.
I was not excusing anything.
I simply thought that there is this mistaken impression that this kind of behavior is about crude, irrepressible, male sexual impulses.
In my experience, the average, normal male can control their sexual urges. What they don't control -- too often -- is their ego and their aggressive impulses, and that is what harassing women is. It is aggression, in these cases directed towards women. Not attraction.
And, FYI, I actually do not believe that the best solution is for individual women to stand up to these perhaps dangerous bullies.
There's the mistaken impression that rape is about sex as well...7 -
This happens way more often than it should to me, only when running outside. I must have perpetual resting b-face as I never get hit on or checked out in 'normal' life (that I notice), only ever when running so it has literally nothing to do with how you carry yourself. It's harassment, simple. I once had a lit cigarette thrown at me while I was out running.
I don't know what these peoples problem is but its exactly that, their problem and not yours. You keep doing you, run in public places, keep moving and try to ignore them
I was in New Orleans once for Marti Gras. There was a group of guy, about 10, hanging out and drinking beer. Big guys too. One of the threw what was left of his lit cigarette at my girlfriend, directly in front of me. My girlfriend wanted me to fight, but she wasn't very "street" wise. It was obvious those guys wanted to pound some nerdy guy down, just because they could. These days, it's a game some guys play. Once they beat you down and they just keep on beating you, even if you get knocked out. If it was just the one guy, yea, I would have fought him. But, I know the deal. I think most men do. There are plenty of videos on youtube that show some poor sucker getting the tar beat out of him because he had to defend his "manhood", as in (you can't push me around) or his honor. Thing is, they don't let the victim run away, they chase him and then ground him till he is out like a light then beat him until the cops come of other people step in.0 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Unfortunately there just isn't an answer that I can think of, you can't control people or their actions unfortunately. Thankfully this kind of behavior is illegal in the workplace, but it's hard to legislate it out on the street, but maybe this type of behavior should be illegal in and outside of the workplace...
I've had really good luck on public transit with focusing attention on the person being harassed, asking if they're ok, offering to switch seats, etc. I used to see people stand by and do nothing but thankfully it's becoming much more socially acceptable to call it out.8 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Unfortunately there just isn't an answer that I can think of, you can't control people or their actions unfortunately. Thankfully this kind of behavior is illegal in the workplace, but it's hard to legislate it out on the street, but maybe this type of behavior should be illegal in and outside of the workplace...
I've had really good luck on public transit with focusing attention on the person being harassed, asking if they're ok, offering to switch seats, etc. I used to see people stand by and do nothing but thankfully it's becoming much more socially acceptable to call it out.
I by no means am saying to ignore it... But I can't control what is happening where I'm not present. Although I agree with you that people shouldn't just stand by and watch this kind of thing happen.
Most of the time, if it's going to happen, it's probably going to be when you're alone... So yeah it should be illegal2 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »
This same thing goes on with men and other men all the time. Especially young me who don't have an education and believe the only way to get more in life is to take your piece of the pie instead of making the pie bigger for everyone. Or men who are jealous of what you have (or what they think you have) so they out of their way to prove they are tougher than you-- like insulting you in public for no reason but to show off that they can get a way with it while their buddies are there. Seriously it's totally *kitten*. Why do you think men "bulk-up", take martial arts, etc...
I remember one time in high-school this total jerk was messing with me in class for no reason. He was "preppy" and I was a nerd. He kept looking at me and saying "I'm going to kick your *kitten* after school." I was like "what, your aren't serious? Why should we fight I don't even know you." Well, he didn't really reply, just kept looking at me and made aggressive postures toward me. He was sitting in the desk in front of me, but in the row to my right when facing the front of the class. Of course the teacher just ignored everything (I went to public school).
Well, the rest of the day I was trying to figure out how to avoid this guy after school. Then around 6th period (the last class of the day) I heard that an Asian guy stabbed him (he was white). Up to that point in my life, I had never felt so relived as when I heard the was stabbed.
It happens all the time for young adult males too. Seriously, it's a jungle out there.
We either strive to have a civilized society or we don't. Expecting women to police this kind of behavior isn't helpful.
Neither is calling them "props in a play".
I don't mean to offend. But when I say "props in a play" I mean that the women are not real to these types of men. These women are objects to them. These men see these women as "something" to be acted upon, not something that is a sentient being.3 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Unfortunately there just isn't an answer that I can think of, you can't control people or their actions unfortunately. Thankfully this kind of behavior is illegal in the workplace, but it's hard to legislate it out on the street, but maybe this type of behavior should be illegal in and outside of the workplace...
As a husband and father, I don't feel it would be to terrible of an idea if the OP had the right to go to the police and have the jerk that ran next to her at the very least slapped with a fine.
I mean sure this opens up us good guys to all sorts of trouble and Bs claims but women shouldn't have to put up with jerks because of this.
It all comes down to how we raise our kids. This guy sounds like some over privileged, spoiled, brat who's gotten away with being able to say and do whatever he's wanted his whole life. Sounds like his parents never kicked his *kitten* when he deserved it. Far too common these days, whatever happened to old school parents...
I agree 100%. It is about how we raise our children. Most children today are not raised to respect authority or their elders. All they are taught is that their emotions as individuals is what matter. Kids are not taught that there rare facts that actually happen. They are taught to speak "your truth," which is basically your opinion. So they lose respect and feeling for others. Kids are not raised to be gentlemen and ladies. They are raised with the idea that society owes them something, just because, or just because of something that happens to their ancestors a century ago.
I remember in the 1970's, my parents had a credit cared. But they never used it. Why? I asked them one day. They said that only people who couldn't afford things like food use them. People respected themselves a lot more back then. If you were a janitor, at least you were supporting your self and your family.
Today, most kids just want to be famous just to be famous; many would rather get money from the government instead of working for it themselves. It's a dam shame. Many kids these days just don't have any respect for themselves.
God do I sound like an old mumpit in the theater balcony!5 -
briansolomon7863 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Unfortunately there just isn't an answer that I can think of, you can't control people or their actions unfortunately. Thankfully this kind of behavior is illegal in the workplace, but it's hard to legislate it out on the street, but maybe this type of behavior should be illegal in and outside of the workplace...
As a husband and father, I don't feel it would be to terrible of an idea if the OP had the right to go to the police and have the jerk that ran next to her at the very least slapped with a fine.
I mean sure this opens up us good guys to all sorts of trouble and Bs claims but women shouldn't have to put up with jerks because of this.
It all comes down to how we raise our kids. This guy sounds like some over privileged, spoiled, brat who's gotten away with being able to say and do whatever he's wanted his whole life. Sounds like his parents never kicked his *kitten* when he deserved it. Far too common these days, whatever happened to old school parents...
I agree 100%. It is about how we raise our children. Most children today are not raised to respect authority or their elders. All they are taught is that their emotions as individuals is what matter. Kids are not taught that there rare facts that actually happen. They are taught to speak "your truth," which is basically your opinion. So they lose respect and feeling for others. Kids are not raised to be gentlemen and ladies. They are raised with the idea that society owes them something, just because, or just because of something that happens to their ancestors a century ago.
I remember in the 1970's, my parents had a credit cared. But they never used it. Why? I asked them one day. They said that only people who couldn't afford things like food use them. People respected themselves a lot more back then. If you were a janitor, at least you were supporting your self and your family.
Today, most kids just want to be famous just to be famous; many would rather get money from the government instead of working for it themselves. It's a dam shame. Many kids these days just don't have any respect for themselves.
God do I sound like an old mumpit in the theater balcony!
Get off your lawn?5 -
2
-
The thing is does this work for any guy? Do they actually have women stopping to chat and flirt? Why would anyone, man or woman, think this is appropriate?3
-
I would honestly tell anyone that pulled this *kitten* in front of me to STFU. I am not adverse to confrontation and have told off groups of guys before. Being a bulldog shape with shaved head and an old school Marine might have helped
Still I don't count on others to behave themselves. I take matters into my own hands and am giving my daughter tools to protect herself. Can or should a lone female tell off a group of guys? I don't think it's wise. Better to just get out of the area.
We don't live in a perfect world where *kitten* keep their yaps shut. We live in a world where unfortunately it is going to happen no matter how many decent people tell them off. To change this it is going to take a whole lot more than I think is possible. Best thing I think we can do is raise our children to respect everyone for the content of their character. Unfortunately that is not going to change anything for years.2 -
-
I had this the other day where these teenage boys were 'appraising' me but couldn't make a decision until they had looked round me to my butt. The answer was no *kitten* because...I have no *kitten*. All muscle no fat. Regardless, I felt disgusting because I'm 10 years older than they are and they shouldn't be looking at me, or any female like that. We're not cattle at a market to be bought for slaughter. I don't exist to be valued by a man.
I've also had the case of men trying to be macho and prevail over me, the weak and feeble woman, and I tell it to them straight: I got the body I have kicking people's faces. Men's faces too. The ones on a power trip visibly crumple when I tell them I do martial arts and fight men in the ring. They often throw their hands up like 'whoa, I don't want to mess with her' in a joke-y way but what disturbs me the most is there is often a small slither of them that is still hoping that I take some bull**** cardio boxing class and they can still get one up on me. Those are the skin crawlers.
I live with the privilege of knowing I can defend myself if I had to, which is why I let it go most of the time. Just ignore it and go straight past it as it's generally idiots being idiots. But if a guy is really going for it? Then I stand up and say something about the inappropriateness of his behaviour because like another commenter suggested: you just making them choose the other girl. I refuse to let that lie. How is it fair that women are just supposed to pass the buck of possible sexual assault and hope 'it's not them' but some other girl? Why the hell don't men have to live up to the responsibility of being decent human beings? A lot of them have the sense to look ashamed when you call them out and if they don't, get out of there because they're clearly not all there.8 -
Being married and having a older daughter, I appreciate how they feel about this type of behavior but it really hit home last week when at the gym a man I do not know said to me on the way to the locker room, "your muscles are really developing nicely." I am sure it was intended in a positive way but I was surprised at how creepy it came across to me.5
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.6K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions