Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
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As the article from Runner's World said, the public sphere is still a "male space" -_-
So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
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I was running in San Francisco down by the Embarcadero. One of a group of men commented about me as I was running by. I didn't acknowledge it, but I felt threatened. As someone earlier said, the other men I passed who were running by themselves just nodded a greeting, but this group of men emboldened one of their own to randomly comment on a random passing woman.
I tried to explain it to my husband, how irritating it was that an otherwise very nice run was essentially ruined because of fear. They didn't look scary, and didn't make any physical move towards me. I didn't really think *those* men were going to do anything to me, but it made me more aware that it was a possibility. My husband just could NOT understand why it was threatening at all. He tried to equate it to running where there were dogs and needing to have ways to deal with that situation. That's a semi-fair comparison, I supposed, but not quite.
When women are exercising, or, you know, basically just existing, the fact that many men feel completely comfortable inserting themselves into a woman's life just seems outrageous. I don't have an answer to this, nor really a hope of it changing. That women have to cope with/deal with/try-but-fail to avoid these situations is just wrong.14 -
Cutaway_Collar wrote: »Hide some pocket knives or other self-defence devices in your socks or armband.
I always feel like this is a bad idea unless you know how to use them. Creep attacks you, you pull knife, creep grabs knife, creep now has knife and you don't... yeah. Not good.
A properly secluded area should be pretty much free of opportunistic creeps - if you barely see a handful of folks on your day's hike then it isn't a place predators will go looking for trouble. Worst is probably semi secluded areas - busy enough for creeps to get a decent hit rate but not so busy that they have witnesses. Still freaks my mom out when I go camping/hiking on my own, but it's my life and I'm not letting what-ifs and creeps prevent me from doing things I enjoy.6 -
Cutaway_Collar wrote: »Hide some pocket knives or other self-defence devices in your socks or armband.
I'm not worried about defending myself. If that was the case, I'd carry my pistol.9 -
So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I think what cutaway was trying to get at is you can't stop this type of behavior.
I find it laughable when people say that resting *kitten* face helps. I have the least approachable face of anyone I know. It does not help.
If some *kitten* is going to be a *kitten* he doesn't care what look you have on your face and the really sad/annoying/frightening thing is you can never tell if this is just a harmless (albeit upsetting and frustrating) interaction or this creep actually means you bodily harm.5 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »
I always feel like this is a bad idea unless you know how to use them. Creep attacks you, you pull knife, creep grabs knife, creep now has knife and you don't... yeah. Not good.
A properly secluded area should be pretty much free of opportunistic creeps - if you barely see a handful of folks on your day's hike then it isn't a place predators will go looking for trouble. Worst is probably semi secluded areas - busy enough for creeps to get a decent hit rate but not so busy that they have witnesses. Still freaks my mom out when I go camping/hiking on my own, but it's my life and I'm not letting what-ifs and creeps prevent me from doing things I enjoy.
I know what to expect in secluded areas, and know when something "doesn't feel right" or hear noises that are out of the ordinary. But, around town, it's more unpredictable.0 -
Yuck. Very scary. I would either carry Mace/pepper spray or I would use a treadmill, myself. You shouldn't have to do that of course, I would just view it as the lesser of the evils in my own case because some of these scumbags are dangerous.1
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.... and have a loud whistle on a chain around your neck, too. If they see the mace in your hand and the whistle they should at least hesitate to try and grab you. My mom has had to mace several would-be muggers.
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Strong_Savannah wrote: »
I'm not worried about defending myself. If that was the case, I'd carry my pistol.
I don't run much anymore, but when I did I used this holster and was able to run just fine with it: https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Armor-Holster-Revolvers-23-29-Inch/dp/B00CI2B1HE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503432138&sr=8-1&keywords=Belly+Band+Concealment+Holster+23"+-+29"+waist&th=1&psc=11 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
This x 10000000011 -
I have found a somewhat aggressive ( direct, a little louder than normal, neutral in emotion, a more formal address rather than just a "hey" or "what's up" etc...) "HELLO!" or "GOOD MORNING" etc... with direct eye contact is off putting for men. If you can get the jump on them and take away they're predatory drive ( you're not "prey" if you acknowledge them first) it takes away their power. They don't realize this, of course, they are just kind of in shock and say a quiet "Hi" back as you run or bike by at your most powerful speed and perfect form. Puff up, Be aggressive - and you'll beat them at their own game.
This is really interesting.
I suspect it might work......The men who do this kind of thing are bullies, after all.2 -
So glad this is not a big issue here (Japan). There are enough problems with equality between sexes but people do not cat call...ever. There are different things to worry about in mass transit but nothing that someone in NY wouldn't experience on a crowded subway.
Now I do agree that not looking like or being "prey" is important even here. Predators of all makes look for weak in the herd. It's not right or just but it's being safe. It's the main reason I have had my daughter in Aikido since she was 4. She had to throw a male bully at school that kept pushing her. She never should have needed to deal with this but her being able to gave me relief when I heard about it.5 -
So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."7 -
Ehh... Some guys are just jerks.
The guy mentioned by the OP who started running side by side with her is just a jerk, and you shouldn't have to tolerate that
I think generally speaking, women like to feel admired, but not always, and not by everyone. So does a guy air on the side of caution and just keep his thoughts to himself, mmm that's probably best imo.
As for what you should do in this type of case... I wish I could just say to pepper spray him lol...1 -
I just smile and let them know they're number 1 (:0
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This pisses me off too, why is it a woman's responsibility to monitor her body language? I can't just run without making sure I look unapproachable? That's a load of BSTeacupsAndToning wrote: »
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
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WorkerDrone83 wrote: »what is the appropriate way to give a compliment or break the ice? Is there one?
this is personal-opinion, but to a stranger? no, there is not. i don't mind if another gym regular says something to me from time to time. or even someone i don't know from a hole in the wall. but it's all based in a really important subtlety: provided there's a subtext of fellow-feeling from a fellow lifter to it. in other words, if it's not about me but about a small chunk of shared ground, then i'm fine.
but i wouldn't advise you to try and fake that. you either 'get' what it's like to be doing whatever you're basing your 'compliment' on . . . or you don't. and if you don't, then i don't think you'll fool very many people.
i guess tl;dr: never get the idea that the average woman who's just out in the world doing her thing gives a damn what your opinion is.7 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.16 -
“I’m not trying to be creepy, but you are really cute." Then being creepy is effortless for you.16
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He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.10 -
I love this thread because it's got me thinking. (long post, sorry)
Now that I'm in my 50s and 100+ lbs. overweight, men no longer look at me, comment on me, or initiate conversation with me. But back in the day, I was constantly wolf watched, propositioned, whistled at, hooted at, and chatted up.
In real life, I'm very friendly when I'm out and about and interactive with each and all - women and men.
I love men and love talking with men, so I don't deny myself the pleasure of their attention. It's just that now, I have to initiate it and so I do. I'm not really flirting and my desire to smile and chat is not borne of any intention to pursue romance and I think men know that. I chat with all ages. Today, men pretty much always respond to me with courtesy, gentility, kindness and surprising receptivity. We exchange pleasantries, chit chat or joke and go about our merry way - down the street, at work, at the post office, at the health club, whatever.
The dynamic though, between me and men, was drastically and unbelievably different when I was a young size 6 and pretty as a picture. I'm sure you know what I mean. Although today I give every man the benefit of the doubt and am indiscriminately willing to engage in light social interaction with them, I can't help but wonder.
*Were you the guy who, 30 years ago, discussed my asss with your friends at Dunkin Donuts when you stood behind me in line - loudly and descriptively declared what you wanted to do with it for all to hear?
*Were you the guy who, 20 years ago, waited until your wife was using the restroom and then approached me in the restaurant where I worked? And then told me you'd pick me up at 2 a.m. and take me on a "joy ride"? And did so with a straight face and complete earnestness?
*Were you the guy who grabbed my arm when I was 18 as I was walking by minding my own business? And then you wouldn't let go, and tried to grab my bewb for the entertainment of your laughing friends and delighted in my fearful reaction?
*Were you one of the many guys who used to slowly stalk me as I walked along, eyeing me like a wild animal who had gone without food for 48 hours and had a very possessed look in your eye? And scared me until I literally had to run away or duck into a store until you went away?
I don't know who's who anymore is what I'm saying. These wonderful, friendly, nice men who chat with me today could be the same guys I describe above. One never really knows. Oh well, che sera sera.
I think all women can relate to your experience.
I would take it further and say part of the reason I ate so much and got to be overweight is because I was done with men. I just got divorced, I had zero inclination to ever be in another relationship. I was 30, and was tired of years of that (above) treatment from men. So since I knew I didn't want any attention from men I didn't care if I was a little overweight AND food was an enjoyable pastime with friends. I learned to cook and cook well. I went out for meals. I ate ice cream on the couch in front of the TV.
Soon every event was about food.
Does it fill a void, and act as a comforting friend? Absolutely. When I decided to eliminate relationships, I no longer cared about being a particular size - I mean it wasn't even on the radar, and I didn't spend time worrying about how I looked. That was actually quite liberating.
Like alcoholism, it takes some time for the problem to progress. For a few years I was just ten pounds over weight. Then as my habits became entrenched, my weight increased. I didn't care one bit about the lack of attention from men but in hindsight I realize it made my self-pronounced, "single for life" stance a lot easier to maintain. Without that annoyance of events like @newmeadow mentioned my life was so much easier and more pleasant. Except I became uncomfortable with myself and started having health problems related to being overweight.
Fast forward to now and I'm at my 22 BMI. I'm older and wiser and would rather be this weight. I still don't want to be with a man, but now I have learned to deflect the ridiculous things that happen. I mentioned I'm in my sixties, right? Recently I've had a guy in a parking lot say, "Nice t!ts." I had one do that lovely little thing with the V fingers in front of their tongue. I had a twenty-something YO stalk me on a hike and wait for me at the trailhead to ask for my number. I had a young guy pull out his erect unit in front of me while I was at a beach. That is just in the last four months.
So yeah, me sitting on a chair and reading a book is definitely me not using the right RBI or "attitude."10 -
Don't get why cat calling exists. It is so weird to me to talk to strangers, let alone try to give them a complement on how they look. Especially if they are concentrating on doing something. Whenever my wife is out by herself she comes back and tells me something crazy some ninja has said to her. I just don't get it. Well I get that ninja just trying to smash and not looking for a relationship. That's all it is.7
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CapnVillainBLK wrote: »Don't get why cat calling exists. It is so weird to me to talk to strangers, let alone try to give them a complement on how they look. Especially if they are concentrating on doing something. Whenever my wife is out by herself she comes back and tells me something crazy some ninja has said to her. I just don't get it. Well I get that ninja just trying to smash and not looking for a relationship. That's all it is.
For real... I had one dude offer to buy me chicken randomly. I almost said yes... I was hungry.16 -
This happens way more often than it should to me, only when running outside. I must have perpetual resting b-face as I never get hit on or checked out in 'normal' life (that I notice), only ever when running so it has literally nothing to do with how you carry yourself. It's harassment, simple. I once had a lit cigarette thrown at me while I was out running.
I don't know what these peoples problem is but its exactly that, their problem and not yours. You keep doing you, run in public places, keep moving and try to ignore them6 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »
So, short answer is that there is no way to break the ice unless you see them regularly. Sounds lonely and boring, but I think I got it.
P.S. - I think we all agree that it's never acceptable to interrupt someone during a workout. Headphones are a clear "Do not disturb" sign. SHAME!
Unfortunately headphones make a person even more vulnerable because they can't hear someone coming up behind them.
Just assume that the woman who is running or cycling has a partner and group of friends already, and isn't interested in adding to that group ... and that the woman isn't lonely or bored.
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TeacupsAndToning wrote: »
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
THIS.
Just like the rape survivor isn't at fault for what she wore to the party so to speak, this woman is not at fault for how she holds herself. The fault is on the predator. That's it.
We need to teach people how not to be creepy/predatory. We don't need to teach people how to be "less approachable."
Harassment is not ok. Why is that such a difficult concept?18 -
Wow, this thread is eye opening to me. I'm 42 and have NEVER experienced anything remotely like these stories. I don't know if it's because I have resting B face, if it's because I politely smile and nod at everyone I pass if I'm exercising outdoors, if it's because I'm self-confident in my ability to defend myself or if it's just that I'm built like a 12 year old boy, but I never get hit on, cat called or any of the other worse aggressions some of you have faced. I can't imagine it. Especially @cmriverside! That's crazy!!!! You should not have to put up with that.
@Chef_Barbell - the chicken! LOL That's hilarious. Completely strange and inappropriate, but still funny.
But this thread does make me kind of sad that some people still find this type of behavior acceptable.
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I'm mainly pissed when a guy, or anyone, tries to talk to me during my workout. Like last night, I had my head phones in and picked up a 30 lb dumbbell because I was about to do my second set of goblet squats when a guy tried to tell me something. He pointed down at an ab roller so I assume he said something about his workout. Then I put the weight down, took out my headphones, and he then said he liked me hat?? I smiled, said thanks, and put my headphones back in.
I had plenty of "DO NOT BOTHER ME" signs (hat, headphones, the ring on my finger for those interesting in anything other than small convo, and my resting B face). So I just don't get it.0 -
ttippie2000 wrote: »
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."
As usual a man trying to "mansplain" something that doesn't need to be. I was responding to another post that basically said that this is the way things are. As someone who has to deal with this regularly, even at my advanced age, I think I have a little more experience than you.13 -
Having a lit cigarette thrown at you is absolutely awful! That is blatant harassment and disrespect, no way around it - one person treating another like trash.This happens way more often than it should to me, only when running outside. I must have perpetual resting b-face as I never get hit on or checked out in 'normal' life (that I notice), only ever when running so it has literally nothing to do with how you carry yourself. It's harassment, simple. I once had a lit cigarette thrown at me while I was out running.
I don't know what these peoples problem is but its exactly that, their problem and not yours. You keep doing you, run in public places, keep moving and try to ignore them
There is only one time that I can recall being yelled at during 'normal' life (not exercising). I was parked downtown on the "main" busy street, alone, and struggling to fit a box of full beer growlers on the floor of my backseat. Naturally, I was bent-over. The entire time I am struggling, I repeatedly hear, "Dat *kitten*, look at dat *kitten*!" I wanted so badly to whip around and yell at him that he clearly was able to lend me a hand with the beer if he had time to yell and stare at me. But, I decided not to give him any satisfaction of my acknowledging him in any way. I guess because I was alone and struggling, I was vulnerable/"prey" in his eyes.0
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