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What do you think about impact of the phrase 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' ?
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canadianlbs wrote: »In order . . .
1. to me it means nothing. except that the person speaking is not thinking deeply enough for their thoughts to be worth anything.
2. simple answer: i find most of the people say stuff like this sound brain-dead to me. more complex answer: i find it negative, for a small group of reasons.
a. it's stupid. as you pointed out, manifestly not true
b. in the usual contexts where it comes up it's dismissive, in an unpleasantly indirect way
c. it's misdirective as well. assuming we're talking about health/weightloss/fitness here, those things are not even really about hard work. hard work is just a component of the whole picture.
d. and finally, it's punitive. it sets the hearer up in this adversarial position with respect to their own goals. like not being there is a thing that has to be beaten with 'hard'ness and 'work'. not something that i agree with.
e. i also find a great many of the people who say stuff like this to be intellectually/socially dishonest as well. this allows them to pull the 'just trying to be inspirational' card when challenged, rather than confronting any new information about the challenge but that's by the way.
3. i'd agree with anyone who thinks it promotes/enables/validates an elitist kind of attitude among those who like to live by and hand out remarks of this kind.
I like your list. I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
I'm finding it even more interesting how people interpret this. Some people are like "Yeah, I can do this" while others are like "No, that's absurd." It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm finding this funny as kids are typically the most brutally honest of any age - seconded only by the elderly, who have learned not to care what others think. Yet the consensus seems to be that these statements would be stated to children as they have not yet learned to limit themselves.
Also interesting how certain people tend to think of their personal experiences in expanding dimensions - personal struggles, obstacles overcome, tales of triumph and misery...but think of others as single dimension characters, in this case "privileged".
I think most of us seem to be defining ourselves as privileged in some ways, no?
I know I think I am in some ways (and not in some other ways that I overcame). Acknowledging that in some ways I am lucky doesn't seem negative.
For me the key is to focus on not giving up in your own life, but also not assuming that because something came naturally to you (or was something you chose to work at or enjoyed working at or wanted to pursue or even felt like you HAD to pursue) doesn't mean that everyone would have been equally capable.
I do think our expectations are often too low of others in general, so would agree with that argument, but I do think people have different natural capacities and how we are raised makes a big difference in what our capacities are too. That I saw people living in a particular way and valuing certain things (work, education), was helpful for me and I picked up related skills despite a really problematic upbringing in some other ways.
I used to volunteer at a program aimed at helping kids from an underprivileged background get GEDs or jobs or both, and with the job thing it was amazing how they didn't often have the skills to SEE opportunities or to know how to get them. Teaching these skills was also possible, but they ARE skills/knowledge that is learned, things we learn from the people around us in many cases.
I find the concept of privilege especially useless simply due to the subjective nature. Everyone is privileged and everyone is not privileged.
Knowing what we now know of weight management I question the concept of things coming "naturally". Certainly there's a matter of interest in an area, but are elite athletes/academics a result of "natural" ability or a result of time and effort? Similar to the fallacy of naturally fat/thin, this is primarily driven by behavior and determination - the natural ability accounts for an extremely small percentage that only becomes perceptible when accompanied with supporting behavior.
Negative people's expectations of others are lower than average. Positive people's expectations are higher than average. The question posed by the OP exposes people's view of the world and in that regard is a very helpful tool if it drives personal introspection.4 -
Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.2 -
I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.14 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
I actually selected them because with the exception of Elon Musk, none of them started in a particularly advantaged situation.
But, it's easy to see privilege instead of hard work as the background for success.5 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
Please explain how this position was favorable to Elon Musk's dreams:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-childhood-was-excruciating-2015-51 -
I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.3 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
I actually selected them because with the exception of Elon Musk, none of them started in a particularly advantaged situation.
But, it's easy to see privilege instead of hard work as the background for success.
"I'm not saying that this applies to all any of the men that you listed"
FIFY4 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
Please explain how this position was favorable to Elon Musk's dreams:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-childhood-was-excruciating-2015-5stanmann571 wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
I actually selected them because with the exception of Elon Musk, none of them started in a particularly advantaged situation.
But, it's easy to see privilege instead of hard work as the background for success.
"I'm not saying that this applies to all any of the men that you listed"
FIFY
Lol god - I don't think that portion of what I said needed to be defended.
It can't be defended. It's a faulty assertion, and the foundation of the rest of what you said.8 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.6 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.
Haha. Yeah, please don't get suspended. I agree with you about opportunities. That was 1992 and now it's only 2017. We'll get there. Eventually.
Edit to add - With hard work!
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WorkerDrone83 wrote: »canadianlbs wrote: »In order . . .
1. to me it means nothing. except that the person speaking is not thinking deeply enough for their thoughts to be worth anything.
2. simple answer: i find most of the people say stuff like this sound brain-dead to me. more complex answer: i find it negative, for a small group of reasons.
a. it's stupid. as you pointed out, manifestly not true
b. in the usual contexts where it comes up it's dismissive, in an unpleasantly indirect way
c. it's misdirective as well. assuming we're talking about health/weightloss/fitness here, those things are not even really about hard work. hard work is just a component of the whole picture.
d. and finally, it's punitive. it sets the hearer up in this adversarial position with respect to their own goals. like not being there is a thing that has to be beaten with 'hard'ness and 'work'. not something that i agree with.
e. i also find a great many of the people who say stuff like this to be intellectually/socially dishonest as well. this allows them to pull the 'just trying to be inspirational' card when challenged, rather than confronting any new information about the challenge but that's by the way.
3. i'd agree with anyone who thinks it promotes/enables/validates an elitist kind of attitude among those who like to live by and hand out remarks of this kind.
I like your list. I think you're taking the phrase WAY too literally.
I'm finding it even more interesting how people interpret this. Some people are like "Yeah, I can do this" while others are like "No, that's absurd." It'd be interesting to see which group is generally happier and/or more successful at achieving their goals.
There's a saying, if you think you can do something you might be right, if you think you can't do something you're definitely right.7 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
@WorkerDrone83
And exemplified on this thread is the answer to your question.TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
2 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.
Haha. Yeah, please don't get suspended. I agree with you about opportunities. That was 1992 and now it's only 2017. We'll get there. Eventually.
Edit to add - With hard work!
"We" may get there as a society, but will the women watching hockey in 1992 get there within their lifetimes? And if they don't, is it because they didn't work hard enough or because society had some barriers in place that had to be moved before they could achieve what they wanted to achieve?6 -
stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
@WorkerDrone83
And exemplified on this thread is the answer to your question.TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
Err... I'm not sure if that really applies... But I appreciate the dialog. haha0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.
Haha. Yeah, please don't get suspended. I agree with you about opportunities. That was 1992 and now it's only 2017. We'll get there. Eventually.
Edit to add - With hard work!
"We" may get there as a society, but will the women watching hockey in 1992 get there within their lifetimes? And if they don't, is it because they didn't work hard enough or because society had some barriers in place that had to be moved before they could achieve what they wanted to achieve?
Removing societal barriers? My, that sounds like an awful lot of hard work.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
You look young and healthy.
That might be why you think anything is possible.
That's also a privileged position, whether you realize it or not.
How do you know he's hasn't worked his *kitten* off to look young and healthy?
Your entire post reeks of self pity and envy.8 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.
Haha. Yeah, please don't get suspended. I agree with you about opportunities. That was 1992 and now it's only 2017. We'll get there. Eventually.
Edit to add - With hard work!
"We" may get there as a society, but will the women watching hockey in 1992 get there within their lifetimes? And if they don't, is it because they didn't work hard enough or because society had some barriers in place that had to be moved before they could achieve what they wanted to achieve?
Removing societal barriers? My, that sounds like an awful lot of hard work.
It is. But it can rarely be done by a single person. If only one person is pushing to remove a barrier, do you really think they'll achieve their goal with hard work?
It's a bit like moving a goal post. One person who tries to move it probably won't see their dream come true no matter how hard they work. But a lot of people working to the same ends can get it done.2 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
There are an awful lot of other privileges, the lack of which can make achieving the promise of this phrase logistically improbable.
Besides the fact that the bolded are not privileges...
Depends on who you ask.
No...
Yeah, it does. Many people assert that the ability/willingness to hustle and keep at something are a sign of privilege.
Whoa, this blows my mind. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how is not being a lazy quitter a privilege?
@WorkerDrone83
And exemplified on this thread is the answer to your question.TeacupsAndToning wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Ultimately, I think it means, since I haven't actually put my opinion in, that it's important to stay hungry. Hungry people are successful. Talent/circumstance/privilege have a role but not as big of a role as is commonly asserted.
Look at Michael Phelps, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban, etc. And listen to them talk, they're hungry. And that hunger is what drives their success. The other driver of their success is that unless it's relevant, they don't look at other people. Michael Phelps may compare himself to Ryan Lochte, but he'll never compare himself to Usain Bolt. There's no point, and no benefit. Competition makes us stronger, but invalid comparison is just a distraction.
Winners don't fear competition, they seek it out.
I'm not saying that this applies to all of the men that you listed, but a lot of people who are successful in a grand way like this, they were often already in a position that favoured their dreams - whether it be that they knew someone who could help them or they had enough money to pursue what they wanted. But a lot of people aren't privy to being in those situations.
Err... I'm not sure if that really applies... But I appreciate the dialog. haha
You asked how hard work can be conflated with being privileged... I provided a short list of people who succeeded due to hard work, and immediately someone asserted that privilege and not hard work was the cause of their success. And subsequently, when presented with evidence of the lack of relevant privilege proceeded to feign outrage.2 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I guess I'm really confused about the "opportunities" conversation.
My mom introduced me to NHL hockey and the NY Rangers when I was a kid. I would literally dream of playing for the team, being a professional athlete. So is the idea that if I had just worked really hard, I could have been the NHL's first female player in 1992? That the reason there are now in 2017 still no female NHL players is because women just haven't worked hard enough? All those women who have played on the Olympic teams and continue to try to get at least a women's league going are failing because they haven't worked hard enough?
If the goal is vague, like I want to get strong, or personal best motivated, like I want to get faster... then sure you can accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. But there are plenty of specific goals that specific individuals will never have a realistic opportunity to accomplish, even if they work themselves into the ground.
That's a good point, but I think it could be argued that no, they didn't work hard enough. Or they weren't directing their hard work into the right place. Apparently someone did though because there is a national women's hockey league. HQ'd in NY, actually.
Yes, and I can guarantee you NONE of those women grew up watching the NHL dreaming that one day they would play in a 4 team league of female players, playing 16 games a season, with no media exposure, making a fraction of the salary of an NHL player.
I'm not going to touch the idea that no women are playing in the 4 major sports league due to not working hard enough, because I would not be able to respond without getting suspended from the forum.
Haha. Yeah, please don't get suspended. I agree with you about opportunities. That was 1992 and now it's only 2017. We'll get there. Eventually.
Edit to add - With hard work!
"We" may get there as a society, but will the women watching hockey in 1992 get there within their lifetimes? And if they don't, is it because they didn't work hard enough or because society had some barriers in place that had to be moved before they could achieve what they wanted to achieve?
Removing societal barriers? My, that sounds like an awful lot of hard work.
P.S. Why didn't you answer my questions?0
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