Of refeeds and diet breaks
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I actually got to listen to it yesterday - my immediate thought was "*kitten*, I effed up dieting, can I go back and do it again?!?"
I expect I have had hormonal issues for years that I did nothing about, but struggled through diets and comp preps, and had huge amounts of frustration when things weren't as successful as I/coaches expected....
I spent long periods in a deficit, on set diets with a "cheat meal". I spent long periods doing IIFYM, carb cycling with one "high day".
My one reverse diet experience was ok from Lyle's brief mention - I went straight back to my "maintenance" calories (determined by a rmr test) and increased further from there quite quickly.
....I have spent time at heavier weights in between, but the hormonal issues didnt appear to improve. Dr's were terrible and not helpful at all, but I've finally started seeing some one who is reputed to be awesome at dealing with hormonal issues, in "athletes", so fingers crossed. (my hope is that her suggestion isn't just "gain weight". Im happy to eat more, but I don't think my current level of body fat is unhealthy or unsustainable)
Has anyone got any thoughts on leptin deficiency or resistance? I haven't had any time to look in to it as yet, but it's a thought that came to my head as a listened.
I'm two weeks into what I'm assuming is my own "diet break" - I've bumped cals up to what I calculated as maintainance, and increased carbs a bit. I have two lower carb non-training days, with one day a week where I add those calories back, as well as lowering fats to increase carbs more. I'm wondering if I should try and make this two days, or whether it's irrelevant as I'm at maintenance anyway...
Id recommend watching this video..it has some similarities to your situation. Its possible that you will have to do a very low diet break or reverse diet.
https://youtu.be/rR8jMynE0ck 2 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I actually got to listen to it yesterday - my immediate thought was "*kitten*, I effed up dieting, can I go back and do it again?!?"
I expect I have had hormonal issues for years that I did nothing about, but struggled through diets and comp preps, and had huge amounts of frustration when things weren't as successful as I/coaches expected....
I spent long periods in a deficit, on set diets with a "cheat meal". I spent long periods doing IIFYM, carb cycling with one "high day".
My one reverse diet experience was ok from Lyle's brief mention - I went straight back to my "maintenance" calories (determined by a rmr test) and increased further from there quite quickly.
....I have spent time at heavier weights in between, but the hormonal issues didnt appear to improve. Dr's were terrible and not helpful at all, but I've finally started seeing some one who is reputed to be awesome at dealing with hormonal issues, in "athletes", so fingers crossed. (my hope is that her suggestion isn't just "gain weight". Im happy to eat more, but I don't think my current level of body fat is unhealthy or unsustainable)
Has anyone got any thoughts on leptin deficiency or resistance? I haven't had any time to look in to it as yet, but it's a thought that came to my head as a listened.
I'm two weeks into what I'm assuming is my own "diet break" - I've bumped cals up to what I calculated as maintainance, and increased carbs a bit. I have two lower carb non-training days, with one day a week where I add those calories back, as well as lowering fats to increase carbs more. I'm wondering if I should try and make this two days, or whether it's irrelevant as I'm at maintenance anyway...
Given that leptin is carb-sensitive, I'd maybe focus on those. Worth a try anyway. But @anubis609 may have more insightful insights than me.
I have had times spent eating at/above maintenance with higher carbs without issues resolving (I've done low carb for losing, to prioritise protein and fat, but love carbs and they are the first thing to get added back in....).
Thank you for the suggestion though!
@livingleanlivingclean - I'm not even gonna pretend to attempt guessing the origin cause of what might be happening, but it's not uncommon for chronic deficits to affect thyroid, on top of leptin, cortisol, estrogen, progesterone, etc. Low carbing also affects thyroid a bit harder, specifically from the consensus of keto/low carb groups, and while it's a normal occurrence, it *might* be a corresponding issue.
Also, considering that you've sought medical advice, I'm going to assume you have panels of labs. Since I can't interpret jack, are you in Lyle's fb group? If you are, it wouldn't hurt to bring it up considering there are a few people who either are or have dealt closely with endocrinologists as it applies to physique athletes. If switching up your diet hasn't worked as well as you'd hoped, it may be more than dietary at this point.
thanks for your reply @anubis609 . i'm fairly certain I have issues across the board, and everything is working against me at this point! I realise the effects of long term deficit, but I would have hoped at some point of my periods in maintenance/surplus that something would have happened to reverse those effects. i'm also thinking its more than just dietary issues, I just hope I can find out what is going on! part of me thinks I have an issue with absorption of nutrients, or some sort of problem using them properly.
My labs so far haven't been detailed enough (getting dr's to refer for blood tests is like pulling teeth, and I've been told i'm normal, been quizzed as to why I need them, just told to eat more and gain weight). I got frustrated and gave up worrying about it for a long time, but realise I need to care about my health. the new Dr took 6 months to get an appointment with, reduced from my original 9 month wait, and she has had me have a whole lot of bloods done - I will get those results when I see her next in a couple of weeks). i'm not currently on FB, but thank you for the suggestion - it's definitely an avenue i'll consider when I get something to work with.But just to take a wile stab at it from a dietary standpoint, I don't doubt you're already eating enough protein, and probably inversely cycling the carb/fat ratio depending on training/rest days... it borders "woo" in speculation, but if the bulk of your diet is kind of in the limbo between ketogenic and glycolytic, you *may* be experiencing the craptacular dilemma that should be considered metabolic flexibility, and just switching back and forth between fuel sources is generally making you feel like butt.
the lowest protein I've eaten in a long time is 130g/day. fat doesn't change much, it just tends to be carbs that I shift around. bumping fat down to allow for more carbs on the one day a week is only something I've done recently - most of my high days have kept fat constant and just added extra carbs. for all the issues I have, fatigue/tiredness isn't something I have an issue with (unless i'm just used to how I feel and it could be a whole lot better). i do tend to follow a somewhat IF like schedule, and have wondered if this isn't helping me. since bumping up my cals to more maintenance level, i have noticed that i wake up hungry to the point of feeling sick/queasy (no, not pregnant...)Maintaining lower levels of leanness all year round isn't impossible, and it's certainly doable, but "optimal" and "doable" are also different. What was the longest run of an actual flexible diet break you've done? I'm just gonna use Sohee Lee as an example, but maybe her suggestion of taking a long 2-3 year break just to maintain sanity and mood might be beneficial, as well as restorative. Assume current activity levels stay the same, but without the rigid structure of following a dedicated strength/hypertrophy program.
I've probably spent periods of about a year (at a time) not dieting - (2013 into 2014, end of 2014 into 2015, end of 2015 into 2016). I have regained a lot of fat in these periods, and definitely didn't stay lean - i got to the point of being uncomfortable within myself quite a few times. I've had periods of not tracking, I've had periods of training without a dedicated program, but I've also had periods of following different programs. for the past few months we've been training without structure, but started Ph3 a couple of weeks ago (and enjoying the structure)
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thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!0
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I coincidentally started my first 14 day diet break the day before Nony_Mouse started this thread. In fact, thank you Nony for helping me (through another thread) to get started on the diet break properly. And a big thanks to everyone for keeping this thread educational and on point!
I have a question. I don't remember Lyle covering this, and if he did, I'm sorry. I have two days to go before returning to a 12 week/ 450 per day calorie deficit, and I want to do my best to support my metabolism.
Question: If eating at least 100 - 150 grams carbs per day is an important factor in restoring hormone levels during the 14 day diet break, wouldn't it also help to maintain 100 - 150 carbs a day during calorie deficit?
I've been a low-carber (80ish grams per day) for 11 months because I felt that limiting carbs helped me comply with a calorie deficit. When I return to calorie deficit, I'm open to increasing to 100 grams of carbs (or more) if it helps support hormone levels. Or maybe it's primarily the calorie deficit that negatively impacts hormones? Any thoughts?1 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »I coincidentally started my first 14 day diet break the day before Nony_Mouse started this thread. In fact, thank you Nony for helping me (through another thread) to get started on the diet break properly. And a big thanks to everyone for keeping this thread educational and on point!
I have a question. I don't remember Lyle covering this, and if he did, I'm sorry. I have two days to go before returning to a 12 week/ 450 per day calorie deficit, and I want to do my best to support my metabolism.
Question: If eating at least 100 - 150 grams carbs per day is an important factor in restoring hormone levels during the 14 day diet break, wouldn't it also help to maintain 100 - 150 carbs a day during calorie deficit?
I've been a low-carber (80ish grams per day) for 11 months because I felt that limiting carbs helped me comply with a calorie deficit. When I return to calorie deficit, I'm open to increasing to 100 grams of carbs (or more) if it helps support hormone levels. Or maybe it's primarily the calorie deficit that negatively impacts hormones? Any thoughts?
I can't recall if he's said anything about that directly either (he tends to be an 'eat the way that works best for you so long as it's not stupid' kinda guy). If keeping carbs higher helped, I'm pretty sure he'd have said it loud and clear. Protein takes precedence, so if keeping carbs higher is going to be at the expense of protein, go with the protein. My understanding is that it's the deficit that leptin is responding to when it drops, but carbs are the best way of getting it back up.
A better approach might be to do a two day carb refeed at the halfway point, if you're up for eating what will seem like an holy amount of carbs at first!5 -
Thanks for your answer, Nony_Mouse. I'm hoping I don't need to do the carb refeed! A year ago I would have jumped at the chance, but my habits and preferences have really changed.
I've gained 1.4 pounds during the last two weeks. It's been holding steady for the last week or more, so hopefully I calculated my TDEE right and the weight gain is carb related and will come off right away. I'm trying not to let it concern me too much!0 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Thanks for your answer, Nony_Mouse. I'm hoping I don't need to do the carb refeed! A year ago I would have jumped at the chance, but my habits and preferences have really changed.
I've gained 1.4 pounds during the last two weeks. It's been holding steady for the last week or more, so hopefully I calculated my TDEE right and the weight gain is carb related and will come off right away. I'm trying not to let it concern me too much!
If it's holding steady then it's just glycogen and extra food in your system
(as an example, previous times that I've switched to maintenance proper I've always bounced back up a bit because of those things, perfectly normal).
You can always do the next diet break sooner if need be. Lyle does recommend more frequently for women.5 -
Good thread. Im in my last 10lbs of weight loss, this is useful.3
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I think leptin will tank regardless of carb load when in a deficit. To my understanding anyway. So keeping carbs higher won't necessarily do much of anything. It's the combination of being at or a little above maintenance with those extra calories being leptin friendly carbs that does the magic.
I get very frustrated with the "I'm not losing" threads, particularly with a female OP where people just barrel in without asking anything much of anything saying they need to lower calories/are eating too much. I have often gone 6-8 weeks without so much as a snifter of movement on the scale. Even I, oh wise one, have started to get a bit antsy, further exacerbating the issue. Then over the course of a week off it all comes. At the moment I'm in 4 weekly cycles of this in line with my contraceptive pill cycle. Nony will tell you!
So I always always try to advise women to either track the trend over more like 6-8 weeks (maybe I'll up that to 10) or take a diet break once establishing where they are with logging and duration of dieting. I often get lost in the sea of well meaning through to absolute nonsense but I try!7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »Thanks for your answer, Nony_Mouse. I'm hoping I don't need to do the carb refeed! A year ago I would have jumped at the chance, but my habits and preferences have really changed.
I've gained 1.4 pounds during the last two weeks. It's been holding steady for the last week or more, so hopefully I calculated my TDEE right and the weight gain is carb related and will come off right away. I'm trying not to let it concern me too much!
If it's holding steady then it's just glycogen and extra food in your system (as an example, previous times that I've switched to maintenance proper I've always bounced back up a bit because of those things, perfectly normal).
You can always do the next diet break sooner if need be. Lyle does recommend more frequently for women.
I'm holding at least 2lbs right now without accounting for the fact it should be lower when taking further deficit into account. Totally normal.5 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!
@Livingleanlivingclean What is your fat intake like? Have you been getting around 0.4 grams per pound of weight?
Any idea what your current body fat % is? What body fat % would you say is where you get uncomfortable with yourself?0 -
Um, wow. Another 1.5 pounds off this morning. I know it's water weight, because there's no way I'm eating at that deficit -- but that was the issue all along! I just had no idea I could have *that* much water weight. I'm in shock and disbelief.10
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!
@Livingleanlivingclean What is your fat intake like? Have you been getting around 0.4 grams per pound of weight?
Any idea what your current body fat % is? What body fat % would you say is where you get uncomfortable with yourself?
I haven't eaten less than 50g fat for a long time, 60g being normal most recently. (so about 0.45g/lb currently)
I'm 136lbs and 5ft5 - id guesstimate my body fat to be high teens at the moment. Before I started to lose weight properly, my highest weight was 176lbs. I got down to about 121lbs at my lowest. I've been up and down, with a lot of time spent around 150/155. I couldn't say what my bf% was then, but in terms of clothes sizes, I wear Australian 8/10 now, and when I'm uncomfortable I'm wearing 12/14s.0 -
collectingblues wrote: »Um, wow. Another 1.5 pounds off this morning. I know it's water weight, because there's no way I'm eating at that deficit -- but that was the issue all along! I just had no idea I could have *that* much water weight. I'm in shock and disbelief.
That is simply awesome @collectingblues 4 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I actually got to listen to it yesterday - my immediate thought was "*kitten*, I effed up dieting, can I go back and do it again?!?"
I expect I have had hormonal issues for years that I did nothing about, but struggled through diets and comp preps, and had huge amounts of frustration when things weren't as successful as I/coaches expected....
I spent long periods in a deficit, on set diets with a "cheat meal". I spent long periods doing IIFYM, carb cycling with one "high day".
My one reverse diet experience was ok from Lyle's brief mention - I went straight back to my "maintenance" calories (determined by a rmr test) and increased further from there quite quickly.
....I have spent time at heavier weights in between, but the hormonal issues didnt appear to improve. Dr's were terrible and not helpful at all, but I've finally started seeing some one who is reputed to be awesome at dealing with hormonal issues, in "athletes", so fingers crossed. (my hope is that her suggestion isn't just "gain weight". Im happy to eat more, but I don't think my current level of body fat is unhealthy or unsustainable)
Has anyone got any thoughts on leptin deficiency or resistance? I haven't had any time to look in to it as yet, but it's a thought that came to my head as a listened.
I'm two weeks into what I'm assuming is my own "diet break" - I've bumped cals up to what I calculated as maintainance, and increased carbs a bit. I have two lower carb non-training days, with one day a week where I add those calories back, as well as lowering fats to increase carbs more. I'm wondering if I should try and make this two days, or whether it's irrelevant as I'm at maintenance anyway...
Id recommend watching this video..it has some similarities to your situation. Its possible that you will have to do a very low diet break or reverse diet.
Thanks for posting this.
Her story is similar to mine except for the different sport. When I started, I also went too far (like her, got down to 110 (BMI 17.8 for me) and ended up with the whole b/p/r cycle nightmare.
The reverse diet concept is something I might look into. I like the idea of staying only 5 pounds above my "racing weight" (115) but never managed to in the past. Reverse dieting strategy may help.0 -
My prediction of massive scale gain from the combo of PMS and refeed have not been met (I am up, just nowhere near what I thought I'd be). I'm weirdly disappointed
And how's this for precision - food intake a mere 12 cals below my Fitbit TDEE yesterday! 2491 cals in, 344g carbs, 49g fat, 189g protein.7 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!
@Livingleanlivingclean What is your fat intake like? Have you been getting around 0.4 grams per pound of weight?
Any idea what your current body fat % is? What body fat % would you say is where you get uncomfortable with yourself?
I haven't eaten less than 50g fat for a long time, 60g being normal most recently. (so about 0.45g/lb currently)
I'm 136lbs and 5ft5 - id guesstimate my body fat to be high teens at the moment. Before I started to lose weight properly, my highest weight was 176lbs. I got down to about 121lbs at my lowest. I've been up and down, with a lot of time spent around 150/155. I couldn't say what my bf% was then, but in terms of clothes sizes, I wear Australian 8/10 now, and when I'm uncomfortable I'm wearing 12/14s.
The level of fat you are eating shouldn't be low enough to be causing issues. Hopefully the lab work results will be helpful.
Your body fat % might be something to think about and discuss with your doctor. I can not find the article but I remember reading that the body fat % that causes issues with women is variable - and pretty individual. I personally find that dipping below 20% is when I start to have some issues.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I think leptin will tank regardless of carb load when in a deficit. To my understanding anyway. So keeping carbs higher won't necessarily do much of anything. It's the combination of being at or a little above maintenance with those extra calories being leptin friendly carbs that does the magic.
I get very frustrated with the "I'm not losing" threads, particularly with a female OP where people just barrel in without asking anything much of anything saying they need to lower calories/are eating too much. I have often gone 6-8 weeks without so much as a snifter of movement on the scale. Even I, oh wise one, have started to get a bit antsy, further exacerbating the issue. Then over the course of a week off it all comes. At the moment I'm in 4 weekly cycles of this in line with my contraceptive pill cycle. Nony will tell you!
So I always always try to advise women to either track the trend over more like 6-8 weeks (maybe I'll up that to 10) or take a diet break once establishing where they are with logging and duration of dieting. I often get lost in the sea of well meaning through to absolute nonsense but I try!
Exactly. Hormones down regulate for everyone as soon as we get into a deficit for a period of time. Just taking Chris Masterjohn and Lyle’s concepts into consideration as a general breakdown, cellular energy status dictates hormone signaling.
If the cells see enough energy supply, then hormones don’t need to signal the cascade of events to supply energy. If there’s a demand, hormones will respond accordingly. Put into a broader view, the more cells that demand energy, the stronger the hormonal response. If cells become damaged from being constantly over or under supplied, signaling becomes dysregulated and that leads to hormonal problems as compensation occurs.
So to keep everything in harmony, periods of demand and supply help keep cells functioning as they should. It’s just the way we create those fluctuations that’s the weirdly complex area since we can’t see in real time what our cells are doing.7 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!
@Livingleanlivingclean What is your fat intake like? Have you been getting around 0.4 grams per pound of weight?
Any idea what your current body fat % is? What body fat % would you say is where you get uncomfortable with yourself?
I haven't eaten less than 50g fat for a long time, 60g being normal most recently. (so about 0.45g/lb currently)
I'm 136lbs and 5ft5 - id guesstimate my body fat to be high teens at the moment. Before I started to lose weight properly, my highest weight was 176lbs. I got down to about 121lbs at my lowest. I've been up and down, with a lot of time spent around 150/155. I couldn't say what my bf% was then, but in terms of clothes sizes, I wear Australian 8/10 now, and when I'm uncomfortable I'm wearing 12/14s.
The level of fat you are eating shouldn't be low enough to be causing issues. Hopefully the lab work results will be helpful.
Your body fat % might be something to think about and discuss with your doctor. I can not find the article but I remember reading that the body fat % that causes issues with women is variable - and pretty individual. I personally find that dipping below 20% is when I start to have some issues.
I would accept being bigger/fatter if issues resolved at that point - I persisted in being bigger for months at a time in the hope that something would change, but it didn't!
I'm hoping something comes of the most recent tests too... Fingers crossed!
Going to put a few more carbs in to my diet this week and see how I go.1 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »thanks @psuLemon - i'll have a listen. I did respond very well to reverse dieting when I did it post comp a couple of years ago. I also have nothing against long "diet breaks" - what I do have issues with is gaining weight/fat past a certain point. I tried that, and maintained a higher weight, in a hope that it would help my health issues, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I would love to be able to maintain close to my current physique (nowhere near comp condition) but increase my calories slowly and be able to eat more food!
@Livingleanlivingclean What is your fat intake like? Have you been getting around 0.4 grams per pound of weight?
Any idea what your current body fat % is? What body fat % would you say is where you get uncomfortable with yourself?
I haven't eaten less than 50g fat for a long time, 60g being normal most recently. (so about 0.45g/lb currently)
I'm 136lbs and 5ft5 - id guesstimate my body fat to be high teens at the moment. Before I started to lose weight properly, my highest weight was 176lbs. I got down to about 121lbs at my lowest. I've been up and down, with a lot of time spent around 150/155. I couldn't say what my bf% was then, but in terms of clothes sizes, I wear Australian 8/10 now, and when I'm uncomfortable I'm wearing 12/14s.
The level of fat you are eating shouldn't be low enough to be causing issues. Hopefully the lab work results will be helpful.
Your body fat % might be something to think about and discuss with your doctor. I can not find the article but I remember reading that the body fat % that causes issues with women is variable - and pretty individual. I personally find that dipping below 20% is when I start to have some issues.
I would accept being bigger/fatter if issues resolved at that point - I persisted in being bigger for months at a time in the hope that something would change, but it didn't!
I'm hoping something comes of the most recent tests too... Fingers crossed!
Going to put a few more carbs in to my diet this week and see how I go.
I'm gonna put this out here even though it may be a completely dumb idea...
Firstly, if that's you in your profile, wow, you look i n c r e d i b l e... I don't know your history but it seems that your issues are to do with hunger and too low cals and having difficulty maintaining the weight you need/want?
From what I've read, you've done all you can on the diet front trying to correct the issues and I do hope that something clicks and works for you.
That aside, have you thought of changing up your training routine? I am aware that exercise can either curb or intensify hunger, depending on intensity and duration. Supposedly, more intense, less hungry?? However, I think I read somewhere (in one of Lyle's books??) that doing moderate cardio (going for a brisk walk, doing a hike, blah...) can be a hunger suppressor.
I wonder if you can try doing something like this? (or if you've ever tried it??)
It certainly works for me - I can eat breakfast, go for a nice hike (not too intense) and don't feel hungry through the day till the night. You can get the additional benefit of more calories to play with for the rest of the week then.
Just a suggestion...0
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