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Dr Jason Fung - The Useless Concept of Calories
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How is someone who doesn't have BED, claiming he cured his overeating which is not BED with LC and IF, helpful to people who have BED??? For the millionth time, BED is not a problem with overeating, it is a psychological disorder. I honestly am not sure if you are being purposefully argumentative, or are just ignoring the stuff you don't want to acknowledge.
No one here is disagreeing with the idea that some people who have chronically overeaten can improve by doing LC or IF. I wholly support someone who struggles to eat the right calories to try LC or IF, they are legit ways of eating and help many people. I have slowly wandered into IF myself on and off.
I do not support someone claiming an undiagnosed ED and then preaching the cure. That's it. That is literally all we were saying, before you tried to turn Gale's argument into fighting the good fight for low-carb.
Gale has alternately claimed all sorts of things have "cured" him of various health ailments he thinks cause his weight problems. Including some protein granules he spent several months spamming the forum about. Now he is saying it was BED cured by LCHF. Whatever, I'm out. I'm going to go to sleep and have nightmares about Fung
For the millionth time, I talked about a lady with diagnosed BED being helped with IF! Why do you ignore what I say? I'm not a low carber. I don't like that WOE. Doesn't mean it can't help some people. And I didn't say it or IF cures people. I said it may help. Are you not interested in something that may help?9 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »God, you just don't get it.
And saying you, as someone who doesn't have an eating disorder, don't find it offensive is like a straight person saying they don't get what the big deal is when people find the use of the word gay, when used to mean 'lame' or similar (as in 'that's so gay'), offensive. It is offensive (both are), whether you find it so or not.
I understand how it is offensive. I never said it wasn't offensive to those with BED. I said IF and LC may help BED people. Do you not think it is worth a try? If not, why not!5 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I've never said I agree that Gale cured BED with a LC diet. I've said that he helped whatever condition he had. I have said that LC and IF may help BED people. I know of at least one BED clinically diagnosed person who has been helped greatly by IF.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »God, you just don't get it.
And saying you, as someone who doesn't have an eating disorder, don't find it offensive is like a straight person saying they don't get what the big deal is when people find the use of the word gay, when used to mean 'lame' or similar (as in 'that's so gay'), offensive. It is offensive (both are), whether you find it so or not.
I understand how it is offensive. I never said it wasn't offensive to those with BED. I said IF and LC may help BED people. Do you not think it is worth a try? If not, why not!
It's not just offensive to those with BED or another eating disorder, it should be offensive to anyone with common decency. That's my point. Those of us with EDs aren't being delicate snowflakes here, a hell of a lot of others who don't have an ED have also stated it's offensive. It's also *kitten* dismissive.
BED is not my disorder, so I will leave it to those who have experience with that to answer.
For restrictive disorders? Hell *kitten* no. You're just exchanging one form of restriction for another, and putting a 'legitimate way of eating' label on it to justify it (it's well known that people with EDs that involve restriction do this to use as an excuse for not eating certain things). For me personally, I don't think either of those things would have worked.
But, for the billionth time, eating disorders aren't about food. So no, I don't think that keto or IF would help the vast majority of people suffering with EDs, at least not long term, in the sense of no relapses.1 -
Kriss I just have to say that I admire your honesty in the hopes of educating others about BED. It takes a strong person to reveal so much about themselves. Sadly it has fallen on ears of people unwilling to learn.13
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I've never said I agree that Gale cured BED with a LC diet. I've said that he helped whatever condition he had. I have said that LC and IF may help BED people. I know of at least one BED clinically diagnosed person who has been helped greatly by IF.
Okay.. lets recap the conversation, okay?
We we are all in here talking about donairs and kebabs and stuff..
Gale comes in and speaks of having an eating disorder that he claims was resolved by going keto within 30 days (please see previous post for definition of resolve provided by google)
People read this and speak up saying he probably does not know what that word means and ask him to please provide details of his eating disorder.
Gale returns to talk about emotional issues he had but the only mention of food was getting a whole banana split at dairy queen after a meal.
People question why this is considered a binge eating disorder in his opinion.
He does not answer this question nor does he provide any details to further explain his stance on his own self diagnoses, since he claimed that he did not know he had one until going keto and realizing it himself.
So then you enter the conversation and tell us the same things you've been repeating through this conversation over and over again but tell us that we should at least give him a mild correction.
However we did give him the correction but he did not acknowledge it by speaking of what he was going through being a chronic issue of having binge moments involving carbs.
People point out that carbs are a combination item of macros to which are quite palatable which is why those foods tend to be the foods people tend to binge on. Even one of the websites speaks of this even from a binge eating disorder stance. Simply because this food is available easy, its cheaper however if this stuff was not as available and expensive, people with binge eating disorder would binge on anything else. Gale has claimed resolve simply removing carbs, so given the alternate reality of no carbs being easily available, he wouldn't of had an issue in the first place, while BED people would.
So i have spend my time posting a detailed idea of what BED is like, showing that while carbs may be a food choice, I still drank salad dressing, i still binged on entire packages of meat and hot dogs. Etc.
So then you claim that maybe people just have a lighter version of the mental disorder, which Gale may probably have.
This light version of which you speak is simply just binge issues based on a macro choice but its not an eating disorder.
So then you say you know someone who was diagnosed who does IF with OMAD and she has better control.
If you know this girl, bring her here we said. But instead you keep using her and speaking on her behalf only knowing a small bit of her experience.
People keep trying to explain to you that their comments have from the start been simply speaking about Gale and his insistence to claim an eating disorder
You keep saying you are not supporting him, but all your comments have generally supported him, even if you didn't directly say his name in every post, you keep saying it might help B.E.D and non B.E,D people. Even though we do know that Keto and IF are not a cure all like Gale claims. But since he believes he has one, basically your comments claiming it does help B.E.D just lets him use that to keep thinking the way he does rather then possibly taking a correction.
Now you are focused on the fact we arent agreeing that diet changes can help certain people.
Thats because we are focused solely on Gale and his situation, not the masses as a whole.14 -
Also. I would like to ask this girl you know who diagnosed her. Because I have a feeling it was her family doctor. Family doctors are as good at diagnosing mental disorders as they are with giving diet advice.10
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I've never said I agree that Gale cured BED with a LC diet. I've said that he helped whatever condition he had. I have said that LC and IF may help BED people. I know of at least one BED clinically diagnosed person who has been helped greatly by IF.
Did you notice where she mentioned she tried restricting herself to eating at certain times?
IT DIDN"T WORK.
Now will you please for the love of all that is holy STOP ALREADY.11 -
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HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I've never said I agree that Gale cured BED with a LC diet. I've said that he helped whatever condition he had. I have said that LC and IF may help BED people. I know of at least one BED clinically diagnosed person who has been helped greatly by IF.
Okay.. lets recap the conversation, okay?
We we are all in here talking about donairs and kebabs and stuff..
Gale comes in and speaks of having an eating disorder that he claims was resolved by going keto within 30 days (please see previous post for definition of resolve provided by google)
People read this and speak up saying he probably does not know what that word means and ask him to please provide details of his eating disorder.
Gale returns to talk about emotional issues he had but the only mention of food was getting a whole banana split at dairy queen after a meal.
People question why this is considered a binge eating disorder in his opinion.
He does not answer this question nor does he provide any details to further explain his stance on his own self diagnoses, since he claimed that he did not know he had one until going keto and realizing it himself.
So then you enter the conversation and tell us the same things you've been repeating through this conversation over and over again but tell us that we should at least give him a mild correction.
However we did give him the correction but he did not acknowledge it by speaking of what he was going through being a chronic issue of having binge moments involving carbs.
People point out that carbs are a combination item of macros to which are quite palatable which is why those foods tend to be the foods people tend to binge on. Even one of the websites speaks of this even from a binge eating disorder stance. Simply because this food is available easy, its cheaper however if this stuff was not as available and expensive, people with binge eating disorder would binge on anything else. Gale has claimed resolve simply removing carbs, so given the alternate reality of no carbs being easily available, he wouldn't of had an issue in the first place, while BED people would.
So i have spend my time posting a detailed idea of what BED is like, showing that while carbs may be a food choice, I still drank salad dressing, i still binged on entire packages of meat and hot dogs. Etc.
So then you claim that maybe people just have a lighter version of the mental disorder, which Gale may probably have.
This light version of which you speak is simply just binge issues based on a macro choice but its not an eating disorder.
So then you say you know someone who was diagnosed who does IF with OMAD and she has better control.
If you know this girl, bring her here we said. But instead you keep using her and speaking on her behalf only knowing a small bit of her experience.
People keep trying to explain to you that their comments have from the start been simply speaking about Gale and his insistence to claim an eating disorder
You keep saying you are not supporting him, but all your comments have generally supported him, even if you didn't directly say his name in every post, you keep saying it might help B.E.D and non B.E,D people. Even though we do know that Keto and IF are not a cure all like Gale claims. But since he believes he has one, basically your comments claiming it does help B.E.D just lets him use that to keep thinking the way he does rather then possibly taking a correction.
Now you are focused on the fact we arent agreeing that diet changes can help certain people.
Thats because we are focused solely on Gale and his situation, not the masses as a whole.
I'm focused on what might help people. Why don't you drop the Gale thing (demanding a retraction it sounds like is what you want) and discuss whether these things can help or not (not if they can cure or not). If meds can help, then why not other things? I would not ask the other person with diagnosed BED to come here because you all would claim their diagnosis was bad. I'm about done here. I do feel for those with BED. Sounds very serious and not a good thing. I wouldn't be closed minded to WOE as being able to help thou. WOE might help some and might not help others. I'm sure each BED person is a little unique and has different degrees of the disorder. Somethings might help some and somethings might not others. Worth a try I would think. If you all don't think so and don't want to try things, that is your prerogative. I do wish you all well!10 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »God, you just don't get it.
And saying you, as someone who doesn't have an eating disorder, don't find it offensive is like a straight person saying they don't get what the big deal is when people find the use of the word gay, when used to mean 'lame' or similar (as in 'that's so gay'), offensive. It is offensive (both are), whether you find it so or not.
I understand how it is offensive. I never said it wasn't offensive to those with BED. I said IF and LC may help BED people. Do you not think it is worth a try? If not, why not!
It's not just offensive to those with BED or another eating disorder, it should be offensive to anyone with common decency. That's my point. Those of us with EDs aren't being delicate snowflakes here, a hell of a lot of others who don't have an ED have also stated it's offensive. It's also *kitten* dismissive.
BED is not my disorder, so I will leave it to those who have experience with that to answer.
For restrictive disorders? Hell *kitten* no. You're just exchanging one form of restriction for another, and putting a 'legitimate way of eating' label on it to justify it (it's well known that people with EDs that involve restriction do this to use as an excuse for not eating certain things). For me personally, I don't think either of those things would have worked.
But, for the billionth time, eating disorders aren't about food. So no, I don't think that keto or IF would help the vast majority of people suffering with EDs, at least not long term, in the sense of no relapses.
But meds do help? Who said anything about no relapses. I said those WOEs might help, not cure.4 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I've never said I agree that Gale cured BED with a LC diet. I've said that he helped whatever condition he had. I have said that LC and IF may help BED people. I know of at least one BED clinically diagnosed person who has been helped greatly by IF.
That is be Gale's background has taught him to not use the term "cure" when talking about health issues.7 -
Might IF help some random person with BED? I don't see how that would work -- it assumes that eating triggers bingeing and so minimizing the amount of times you eat (but still eating once a day) would reduce binges, and that doesn't actually make sense to me or seem correct from what I know about BED. But might one individual person be helped by it? Sure, it's possible, most things are possible and people do vary in what is helpful. BUT since there is that variation and it's hardly "this often or normally helps," I would AVOID preaching that it is a cure or something that generally helps with BED, which is not true, and I would advise anyone with a diagnosed ED or who thinks they might have an ED to please, talk to a therapist with experience with EDs, and follow that person's advice, and not someone who for some unknown reason needs to push their own preferred way of eating.
Also, can I just say that this thread is not and never was about IF, so why the heck is the discussion now about IF helping EDs? The ED discussion came because Gale claimed to be a carb addict (because banana splits and burgers, I think, which are hardly just carbs, and he doesn't seem to have been having an issue with carrots -- or to have ever eaten many fruits or veg, which are carbs) and then claimed to binge, which bingeing seems to have been having dessert after dinner (which, sorry, not a binge, and does not require one to have an ED). Anyway, Gale said that his ED was cured (as Kriss notes, that's what his words meant) by going keto. Again, my understanding of BED -- which is not overeating only on carbs -- is that keto would not help. But again, see advise above about EDs.
Re Fung, what he mainly seems to be known for promoting (in addition to demonizing carbs) is LONG fasts. It is foolish to equate IF -- which is not really fasting, in most forms you eat once a day, often no fewer calories in a day than anyone else, and in the ones with the longest complete fasts it's only 24 hours, I believe -- to the 10 day fasts and so on that Fung et al. promote. I find it truly weird when people who IF (doing 16:8 or some such) get fake offended when someone says that fasting (meaning for, say, a week) can be risky or bad for you and insists that they fast and are fine. No, you are not fasting in that sense, so your diet is irrelevant to the discussion. Calling not eating other than in a daily window "fasting" is bizarre.
None of this is to say that IF and keto cannot be helpful ways to eat. I myself DO NOT SNACK because I tend to overeat (NOT binge) when I snack and it makes it easier for me to fall back into stress or emotional eating. While I do not do IF (I enjoy eating both breakfast and dinner and thus could not fit into an IF schedule), I think the same principles somewhat apply and would agree that many of us tend not to think about foods at times we are not used to eating. But again, this has nothing to do with BED.
I have a friend who does 5:2 and loves it, she finds it an easy way to only worry about calories 2x a week, doesn't find the 2 days burdensome, and lost 10 vanity lbs easily and is now maintaining and gets to eat what she wants on the 5 days. Again, great for her, nothing to do with BED.
I did keto for a while, understand why others do it (although I decided for various reasons it's not for me), and I have done low carb for a longer period of time. Reasons that some do it (which didn't apply that much for me, for me it's more a food preference thing) = appetite control, T2D/IR, and a way to shift the diet from overreliance on highly palatable foods for people whose weaknesses/lack of control tended to be things with lots of carbs (although often fat too). Sometimes people think "I have a hard time controlling myself with cookies or chips and will eat a whole lot if I eat one so I have a bingeing issue, that's BED, right?" -- again, note that these are not only carbs, these same people typically have no issues with carrots. These people may be well meaning, but they are using words wrong -- overeating tasty food is natural (although some have better impulse control in that area than others) and not the same thing as BED which is specific ED. I have definitely intended to eat a couple pieces of pizza and instead eaten half a pie, because tasty, but that is not a "binge" or BED (and it doesn't become one just because I get talked into ALSO having a tiramisu after).
Finally, I think the whole thing with Gale started because he again claimed that you CANNOT become overweight without having a health issue that causes it, and normal eating a few more calories than you need is, according to him, a bingeing disorder or some sort of ED, inherently. There is 0 evidence for this remarkable claim.
Anyway, I think there are many ways people can have bad habits and issues and so on with food, but to say "I control my issues this way and so it's a cure for BED and other EDs" is irresponsible at best and disregards the experience of those with the condition.5 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »Kriss I just have to say that I admire your honesty in the hopes of educating others about BED. It takes a strong person to reveal so much about themselves. Sadly it has fallen on ears of people unwilling to learn.
Some, clearly.
But I feel compelled to say that I've learned a lot here from @HellYeahItsKriss's brave and persistent honesty, and I'll bet others reading have, too. (In that sense, it's too bad the thread has been deprecated down-list.)
Thank you, Kriss.9 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
Okay.. lets recap the conversation, okay?
We we are all in here talking about donairs and kebabs and stuff.
Can we go back to that?3 -
stevencloser wrote: »HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
Okay.. lets recap the conversation, okay?
We we are all in here talking about donairs and kebabs and stuff.
Can we go back to that?
3 -
HellYeahItsKriss wrote: »
@blambo61
The above image is a page from a log book given to me by my psychiatrist from the eating disorder clinic where i was diagnosed. I want you to see the chaos on those pages. Where i pleaded with myself to just stop.
Where i would plan to not eat then fail and end up eating anyway.
Where i would plan to try and offset the eating with cardio and also fail doing that too.
The words i write in sad desperation, of just being tired of going through this every single day..
I want you to scroll back through Gale's posts and find the same level of detail about his eating disorder.
I want you to tell me all the things he tried and failed at. I want you to tell me all the massive amounts of food he was consuming besides a banana split at dairy queen. I want you to tell me who specifically confirmed he has an eating disorder in order for him to say he had one but didn't know it until he went keto and found resolve. I want you to tell me all about his eating disorder that he hasn't just read what i've written and said "that reminds me of what i did with no other information attached. He was asked to share details of his eating disorder. If he had a privacy concern, he would of said that he did not feel comfortable, however he didn't, he did write something but it did not describe an eating disorder in the least. Since you really are convinced Gale is correct in his claims, by his posts, i want you to point out the same level of details i have given about my own eating disorder.
I just want to say that I really appreciate your candor and bravery in this thread.9 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »Kriss I just have to say that I admire your honesty in the hopes of educating others about BED. It takes a strong person to reveal so much about themselves. Sadly it has fallen on ears of people unwilling to learn.
Some, clearly.
But I feel compelled to say that I've learned a lot here from @HellYeahItsKriss's brave and persistent honesty, and I'll bet others reading have, too. (In that sense, it's too bad the thread has been deprecated down-list.)
Thank you, Kriss.
Cosigned! I certainly have and appreciate her ability to be open and transparent.4 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »Kriss I just have to say that I admire your honesty in the hopes of educating others about BED. It takes a strong person to reveal so much about themselves. Sadly it has fallen on ears of people unwilling to learn.
Some, clearly.
But I feel compelled to say that I've learned a lot here from @HellYeahItsKriss's brave and persistent honesty, and I'll bet others reading have, too. (In that sense, it's too bad the thread has been deprecated down-list.)
Thank you, Kriss.
Thanks guys. I want people who experience what I wrote and shared to contact me too if they want. Please don't go the route of keto and IF and prolong the problems longer then they need to. If a professional BED therapist reviews with you that you don't have a disorder then yes. Try other eating avenues AFTER.8 -
There is some guy who has a blog and says he cured his cancer with green juice. He says he was diagnosed, refused treatment, drank this specific green juice blend, and went back to the doctor and got confirmation he was cancer free. But here's the thing - he's a random guy on the internet. I don't know if anything he said was true (though based on my limited knowledge about cancer and nutrition, I feel pretty confident it's not). So if a woman who had cancer and was working with specialists at a cancer center was posting that green juice does not cure cancer, and posting links to the American Cancer Society debunking the green juice cure, I wouldn't argue with her based on this random dudes blog and suggest people just give a try.
And I'd like to whole-heartedly participate in the re-rehijacking, so...
6
This discussion has been closed.
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