Of refeeds and diet breaks
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots
...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.0 -
Oh funny, I scanned through that list and went "Wait! What? 1000 calories for a protein cookie?"3
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...1 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...
Still trying to figure out how to cook pumpkin and squashes! Occasionally have used canned unsweatened pumpkin err... maybe mixed in with cool whip, who knows why
Sounds AWESOME.0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
So are we talking 600g total, or 1150g total? And what form is the pumpkin?
1150 total... Raw weight pumpkin, but I cook it...
Still trying to figure out how to cook pumpkin and squashes! Occasionally have used canned unsweatened pumpkin err... maybe mixed in with cool whip, who knows why
Sounds AWESOME.
I roast it - in Australia we eat pumpkin/squash more as a vegetable, with dinner, not so much dessert. I cut it in chunks and bake it with spices on it (garlic powder, paprika, cumin, cayenne)
Pumpkin/squash Soup is good too - I still roast chunks, then blend with stock. The roasting adds more flavour3 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
I’m the same. I can stuff myself off 225g each of yellow squash, zucchini, and spinach + 230g egg white + 230g of canned chicken breast + turmeric & black pepper + hot sauce/calorie free dressing. Crap ton of volume ~ 500kcal, minimal fat, prioritized protein, lower carb, and voila, psmf lunch macros lol.
It’s truly not enjoyable or sustainable long term, but it is what it is when cutting season starts and vanity is a priority ¯\_(ツ)_/¯1 -
See, I thought I was on the volume eater spectrum, but apparently not...
An NZ is the same with pumpkin, it's a vegetable. In winter pumpkin soup is one of my lunch staples. Stuffed pumpkin, either butternut or buttercup, is also awesome.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Haha, even I have yet to achieve a cal burn that high!! Best was 4695, and I'm not sure I could top that. I also don't know that I could eat 10,000 cals of food, unless I was allowed to chuck several litres of Coke in there too.
I think tomorrow I'll go back to lower cal lunch, because it really doesn't seem to make a difference to how hungry I am. Though that does mean buying a tiny supermarket avocado when I have four nice big ones refusing to ripen. Or, heaven forbid, thinking of something else for lunch.
Do you leave them sit out or put them in a paper bag to ripen? Mine always ripen within two days if I put them in a paper bag. I've left them to sit out and they take ages. I always keep paper bags on hand now just for avos.0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
I’m the same. I can stuff myself off 225g each of yellow squash, zucchini, and spinach + 230g egg white + 230g of canned chicken breast + turmeric & black pepper + hot sauce/calorie free dressing. Crap ton of volume ~ 500kcal, minimal fat, prioritized protein, lower carb, and voila, psmf lunch macros lol.
It’s truly not enjoyable or sustainable long term, but it is what it is when cutting season starts and vanity is a priority ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I cry at the carbs men can get away with and still be doing what is considered PSMF.
For me, your meal, sans the chicken since I'm veggie, is just dinner. Now, mind you, since I'm not doing PSMF, I add a whole egg and use some olive oil to get some fat in.2 -
Either a two-pound whoosh this morning, or just my blood sugar punking me. (Like, stupidly scary high. WTF, body?) Only time will tell, I suppose.0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »
On Thursday Nony_Mouse ate through...okay, I'm not going to list every item, here's some screen shots ...and she was still hungry*
(that's 2568 cals for you kj illiterate people)
I think this is just PMS/late phase luteal hunger kicking in earlier than usual. At least I hope that's what it is. It's definitely hunger, not just 'mmmm, I want to eat that tasty thing!'. Deliberately running a 300 cal surplus today to counter apparent Fitbit underestimation combined with increased cal needs for womanly things. I'm a good way over that currently, including yet to be eaten dinner, but my usual evening perambulating will take care of the rest.
*not currently, just had a protein cookie. Give it an hour...
The volume eater in me is looking at that still hungry... I swear I could be an eating machine. Or a prize winning competitive eater.
Heh, I admit I sometimes look at friends' diaries and think 'omg, how can you possibly feel full on so little volume??'. Normal lunch is a cottage cheese and avocado mix (basically guac with cottage cheese) with either carrot sticks or cauliflower. I've been on a carrot kick lately, but maybe I'll grab a cauli tomorrow morning after physio when I get the stupid tiny avocado, cos more bang for calorie buck. If this is going to persist until Tuesday or Wednesday next week I need to get more savvy with the low cal filling stuff.
I'm expert at volume - I have to make myself cut back sometimes because it can get ridiculous. My dinner during the week (for the past few weeks) has been a mammoth salad... Slightly ridiculous.
About 250g lettuce/leaves
50g alfalfa sprouts, grated Beetroot, grated carrot, avocado
100g red cabbage, celery, tomato, cucumber, capsicum
200g pumpkin
... And a chunk of salmon. And sometimes rice mixed in.
I’m the same. I can stuff myself off 225g each of yellow squash, zucchini, and spinach + 230g egg white + 230g of canned chicken breast + turmeric & black pepper + hot sauce/calorie free dressing. Crap ton of volume ~ 500kcal, minimal fat, prioritized protein, lower carb, and voila, psmf lunch macros lol.
It’s truly not enjoyable or sustainable long term, but it is what it is when cutting season starts and vanity is a priority ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I cry at the carbs men can get away with and still be doing what is considered PSMF.
For me, your meal, sans the chicken since I'm veggie, is just dinner. Now, mind you, since I'm not doing PSMF, I add a whole egg and use some olive oil to get some fat in.
The total carbs for 8 oz of yellow squash, zucchini, and spinach are about 23g... 13g net carbs after subtracting 10g of fiber But even being vegetarian, that alone is about 12g protein, so it's pretty damn good. Though you'd have to eat more pounds of veggies to get adequate protein.. which is why I couldn't be. The efficiency of eating actual meat is just a lot easier on... gastric interests lmao 1 -
collectingblues wrote: »Either a two-pound whoosh this morning, or just my blood sugar punking me. (Like, stupidly scary high. WTF, body?) Only time will tell, I suppose.
What's your fasting glucose? I have some running theories about blood sugar spikes with whooshes which incorporate the idea of lipolysis to release extraneous stored glucose within the adipocytes into blood circulation. I'm not sure if it's a feasible theory since I haven't run it across the current thought leaders, but it's just something I have in my head.0 -
collectingblues wrote: »Either a two-pound whoosh this morning, or just my blood sugar punking me. (Like, stupidly scary high. WTF, body?) Only time will tell, I suppose.
What's your fasting glucose? I have some running theories about blood sugar spikes with whooshes which incorporate the idea of lipolysis to release extraneous stored glucose within the adipocytes into blood circulation. I'm not sure if it's a feasible theory since I haven't run it across the current thought leaders, but it's just something I have in my head.
It varies, usually depending on how the previous night was, whether there was exercise, whether there was alcohol, etc.
This morning was ... not fantastic. We need to tweak my overnight insulin -- while still being on the side of "we need to make sure I'm not hypoglycemic overnight" -- because I keep waking up high. I could start that on my own, but there are some mornings when I'm fine, so I'm trying to rule out other issues first.0 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Hopefully this isn't too tangential to the overall re-feed/diet break theme - I've been planning the second half of my weight-loss process and am seriously considering trying out a feast-fast protocol. I'm already eating at or above maintenance 1-2 days a week, and am curious to see the effect of going to one day at a surplus followed by a fasting day. I'm hoping this will keep up whatever benefits I've enjoyed from those maintenance/surplus days, plus it would allow me a "free" day once a week AND I wouldn't have to reduce my calories on deficit days from where I am right now (about 1500/day) but I would be able to lower my overall average, which is going to be necessary if I want to hit my goal weight by the end of next year (which should be fairly doable - I've got 34 lbs to go to hit my goal at the top of my "normal" BMI range).
I've really enjoyed lurking on this thread, but so far haven't considered myself as a candidate for a diet break both because of my higher BMI (I'll hit "overweight" in January, most likely) and because I just haven't experienced any noticeably negative physical or mental side-effects of sustained deficit, which I'm currently crediting largely to those regular maintenance/surplus days. That said, I've still been in an overall deficit for six and a half months now and am aiming for another seven and a half before I start to raise calories again, so I'd like to be ahead of the game if a break becomes beneficial.
Of course, the consensus seems to be that you want to take the break *before* you think you need it, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. Hopefully this thread will still be here by then.
Not remotely tangential!! And a hell of a lot more on topic than a lot of the stuff in here (though we have established that cats and dogs are never a derail).
I'm definitely in the camp of taking a break before you need it, so you don't get to that point. That down regulation of hormones is happening, whether you can feel it or not. Though, your current strategy is probably staving them off more than if you were at a straight 24/7 deficit.
I don't see why your strategy wouldn't work, so long as the fast day is sustainable for you (by fast, do you mean all out fast, or as in like 5:2 where you're doing something like 500 cals on those days?). I'd still consider working full diet breaks into your plan though, especially as you get closer to 'normal' BMI range.
Puppies and kitties are always on point! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I guess I was thinking of starting with something like the 5:2 diet - my spouse and I have standing movie night Sundays at 8:30, so I figured I’d try fasting until then and eating a normal dinner. The goal might be to move to a full day fast, but maybe not. I’m going to have to skim the thread again to strategize on where to fit a full break - it’s one thing to slot one in when one is struggling, but I’m not quite sure how best to plan a preemptive strike.
Feast/fast eating patterns are fine as long as your weekly average is where you planned it to be and aren't jarred by post-feast morning weigh-ins. It's part of the undulating strategy I had in mind when mentioning it previously. Some days will be higher, other days might be lower - or in the case of fasting, none at all. There are some studies that support ADF or alternating very low calorie days to help insulin sensitivity.
Psychologically, it has an added effect that not everyday needs to be static or in the worse case scenario, a feasting period. Aadam Ali's phrase that stuck with me is "fasting is like a refeed for the mind."
http://physiqonomics.com/philosophies-dieting-fasting-spike-days/
I've very used to post-surplus fluctuations at this point, so I'm not concerned about that aspect, and I've been averaging bimonthly since the spring because it just makes more sense with my life. And that link was exactly what I was reading earlier today - I've been following Ali for a while but hadn't run across that particular subject before, possibly because I've gotten so tired of the IF chatter that I kind of tune it out. I was one of those teenagers who was so against being trendy that I was basically controlled by trends more than the "cool" kids - I still have to fight the impulse to dismiss things simply because they're trendy.
To your last statement, fasting has become a bit of a trend lately, at least within the zero carb/low carb/keto circles. IF has been around since leangains, so that's not too bad. Though, extended fasting for weight loss is completely petarded if that's the only and primary goal for doing a fast >24 hours. To sum up past debates, autophagy is great and all but no one truly understands its mechanisms or realizes that exercise is also considered fasting in fast forward, and that the true rewards of fasting induced autophagy come from the refeed/feasting period afterwards, which should be longer than the fasting period.
Anywho, before I get too off topic, you're familiar with Aadam's philosophy regarding nutrition so I think following his advice is reasonable. Not just because he's my international spirit animal either. Lol.
Thank you for the feed back - I really appreciate it! I've been doing some more reading and have found a few sources (including Aadam) mentioning that women should be cautious when it comes to fasting, so I think I'm definitely going to start with 14-16 hours and see how that suits. It's a little more aggressive than they recommend, but considering I already do 12 hours on post "feast" days not infrequently, I think adding a few hours on top should be fine. We'll see. This is the first time I've seen concerns about women fasting - presumably Islamic women have managed it fine for some time, so I'm not losing my mind, but I do appreciate the need for caution.
Looking ahead, I think late March/early April will make the most sense for a diet break - my birthday and my spouse's birthday are both in there, and we often do a joint party or two around that time anyhow. If all goes according to my hopefully conservative estimates, I should in the mid-150s at that point, less than 20 pounds over the top end of normal BMI, so that seems reasonable.
Fellow online friend and introvert, Amy Berger, has a really good rant about the fasting fad that low carb/keto women tend to implement, much to the nod of it being a trend. Granted, it doesn't have to just be within the low carb community, but that's the population that seeks it out with vigor. And while the term "amenorrhea" is tossed around for good measure, entraining ED patterns is also not something that would be a good look for fasting enthusiasts. As always, it's in context. I don't need to speak to something an adult can decide on their own, but considering the variety of personal stories in this thread alone, many of us have had experiences with not recognizing signs until it became hindsight.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/09/not-so-fast.html
Oh that's interesting, thanks for the link. I honestly hadn't thought about the idea that a main concern here would be lean young women who do too much cardio and already eat very low calorie diets but I suppose it makes sense in context. As it is, the only thing I have in common with that group would be the woman part. Even a partial fast day would only bring my weekly average down to around 1650/day. I think I might be something of an outlier even on MFP - a woman who has never dieted before or had any sort of eating issues whatsoever.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »See, I thought I was on the volume eater spectrum, but apparently not...
An NZ is the same with pumpkin, it's a vegetable. In winter pumpkin soup is one of my lunch staples. Stuffed pumpkin, either butternut or buttercup, is also awesome.
I too thought I was a volume eater. Turns out I'm a grazer. Or at least would be a grazer if I didn't eat proper meals. But an average meal keeps me going perfectly sufficiently negating the need to graze. Plus. I just like how food tastes.4 -
Oh and I am officially on diet break. With the nightmares indicating my mental health is on a downward trajectory I don't need to be stressing my body further by fighting with my brain to maintain a deficit too and of course the stress inherent with a deficit. So I am diet breaking. Shall recommence deficit January 1st. Hopefully I'll get a little bit of energy back because to say I'm struggling would be an understatement. 12 hours I've slept the last two nights, even for me that's excessive.
And I bought a new jumper today. Which isn't news aside from the fact that it's still a novelty I can pick up a UK10/US6 in most things (unless H&M, need like a UK40 in there) and know it will probably fit without going near a fitting room, I don't do trying on. And it does! Hurrah!11 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »See, I thought I was on the volume eater spectrum, but apparently not...
An NZ is the same with pumpkin, it's a vegetable. In winter pumpkin soup is one of my lunch staples. Stuffed pumpkin, either butternut or buttercup, is also awesome.
I too thought I was a volume eater. Turns out I'm a grazer. Or at least would be a grazer if I didn't eat proper meals. But an average meal keeps me going perfectly sufficiently negating the need to graze. Plus. I just like how food tastes.
It's embarrassing to admit that pretty much the most satiating thing I eat is quest bars, and I'm usually a volume eater (giant salads like livinglean). But that bar can take me from breakfast to noon with no more than a piece of fruit in-between if I'm bored-eating. I carry them in my purse so that if I'm stuck somewhere without gf food I can eat it and be fine until the next meal. I guess for me it's the perfect combination of macros and sweetness.3
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