Of refeeds and diet breaks

anubis609 · February 2018

lightenup2016 wrote: »

anubis609 wrote: »

lightenup2016 wrote: »

There is so much information in this thread, I wish I could read through all of the info here. Is there a "magic" percentage of maintenance calories that seems to work to replenish glycogen? PP stated maybe half of BMR, but if my calculations are correct, that only puts me at 165g carbs, which I hit pretty often even at a deficit.

I'm new to this whole refeed concept, having in the past cycled my calories (1450 cal x6 days, 2000 x1 day) but not paid attention to macros. Is it very important to keep fat lower than usual? When pre-logging for today, I played around with the numbers for quite a while, but with what I'll have for dinner with my family, plus what I feel like I need for satiety (ie, protein), I found it difficult to get carbs very high, fat very low, and protein where I'm comfortable. I settled at 257g carbs and about 61g fat, but only 74g protein. My usual default number of fat grams would be 69g for this number of calories.

Thanks for any advice--I'd like to be proactive about not getting too low in leptin, high in cortisol, etc.

Not a magic percentage, but muscle glycogen holds roughly 400g and liver holds about 100g, and ranges depending on total body mass, hence, the advice to eat ~500g of digestible (starchy) carbs. You could do it with fiber food, but the amount of food alone after subtracting fiber leads to a lot of stomach and digestion issues.

Assuming you depleted glycogen throughout the week (liver glycogen gets depleted the fastest and first before muscle which needs to be depleted manually via resistance/endurance training), then the concept of a traditional refeed was to eat as many carbs as you could given your bodyweight ~4-5g/lb of bw for resistance/strength athletes, and upwards to 8g/lb of bw for endurance athletes, and even 12g/lb of bw for ultra endurance athletes.

Refeeds are basically a controlled overfeeding. You're going to go over calories for that day, but that's not a worry. One day of overfeeding isn't going to derail you. Carbs are special in the fact that pure carb overfeeding needs to be pushed well into the thousands of grams before de novo lipogenesis (DNL) occurs - AKA new fat cell generation from overfeeding.

The reason why fat remains as low as possible is because like I said in my response earlier is that carbs take priority as a fuel source to be burned (after alcohol - there's no storage for alcohol so the body stops burning everything else to burn off alcohol first), so any incoming fat goes straight to storage and waits until enough glucose gets depleted before insulin signals allow for lipolysis to happen again.

Now for the caveat. You don't *have* to completely saturate glycogen to benefit from a refeed. Instead of having one day of complete carb overfeeding (which isn't even fun, btw), you extend that period over a few days, so you just have a slight surplus or even maintenance days with higher carb and lower fat. You could even reduce protein just a bit to make room for more carbs. This helps with allowing the [presumably already lean] dieter to feel psychologically satisfied and on point with their diet while continuing a fat loss cycle.

The other advantage of taking a spike day and spreading it out over several days is that it reduces the temptation to fall into a binge/purge cycle. Some people never knew they had an ED until they developed one on their own by following some weird IIFYM gymbro advice, or just by chronically dieting and not seeing the development of anorexia happening because they were fixated on the scale. Whatever the case is, unless you're a die hard fanatic of bodybuilding levels of leanness, which aren't sustainable in the long term, no one needs to go to extremes to get results they should be happy to live with at a healthy body fat level.

If this is true for men, surely those numbers would be lower in women, correct? I do thank you for the info. That is what I'd read about fat, is that it should be low so it's not stored. I'm so used to not worrying much about my fat intake that it's difficult to get it very low.

I do like the idea of two days at maintenance, rather than one big blowout day. That will be my plan. Thanks again!

You're correct that not every person holds the same amount of glycogen. Therefore, it's lower in women in the context that they generally carry less mass than men, but it's going to be dependent on bodyweight. So use the formula of carb grams per pound of body weight. The number of grams per lb is going to be dependent on your activity level. For sedentary people, they don't deplete enough glycogen, so they wouldn't even need to restore muscle glycogen. Maybe about 100-150g of carbs for liver glycogen, but that's about it.

In terms of fat, aim for ~0.3g of fat per lb of bodyweight at a minimum just to be on the safe side and keep things palatable during a maintenance refeed period. It doesn't have to be slammed to the floor unless you're purposely overfeeding.

anubis609 · February 2018

Somewhat related to the diet breaks, but Aadam has a consistent tone to bring things back up to maintenance during a diet break or to address possible disordered eating patterns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qRkuLBzj-0&t=2s

Psychgrrl · February 2018

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

Russellb97 wrote: »

This is only because researchers have refused to study the obvious.
As a guy who has struggled with his weight his entire life and once weighed over 330 lbs, I tell you with 100% confidence that one day is enough. this summer I will hit the 15-year anniversary of my journey and one day of refeeding was the key.

I think this is a silly argument. Lyle's 2 day is keeping to a calorie limit and likely topping stores while your recommendation of 500 g of carbs would put many people over calorie limits in one day.

This is exactly the point Lyle makes in his Women's Book. Early on, there was no difference between men and women in carbo loading, though it created an impossible diet for women because they were smaller and had less of a TDEE. Getting enough grams of carbs meant eating too many overall calories.

Nony_Mouse · February 2018

Another fly by visit from me. No such thing as work/life balance atm, it's basically work and sleep, with an evening walk if I'm not dead tired (using your brain sucks a lot of energy!), though actually reduced activity is a bit of a blessing in terms of not having to get through a ton of cals at night because I've gotten so engrossed in work during the day.

Anyhoo, hope everyone is well!!

anubis609 · February 2018

I heard that. I've been relatively busy myself. My body's prodding me to reduce consumption by reducing hunger. The joys of periodized eating. Though, I am up exactly 2 pounds after 1.5 months, so this controlled bulk is going well. Mini cut probably gonna happen around early/mid March for about 4 weeks, then back to lean bulk/gaintenance.

Nony_Mouse · February 2018

anubis609 wrote: »

I heard that. I've been relatively busy myself. My body's prodding me to reduce consumption by reducing hunger. The joys of periodized eating. Though, I am up exactly 2 pounds after 1.5 months, so this controlled bulk is going well. Mini cut probably gonna happen around early/mid March for about 4 weeks, then back to lean bulk/gaintenance.

Yeah I'm basically running an unintentional deficit on days I'm working (6 days a week atm), then eating all the fuds on my off day to balance it out and regain some energy. Deficits aren't huge, but up to 500 cals which at my size isn't the smartest thing. I have a chocolate supply in the lab now though, so that may help.

gamerbabe14 · February 2018

Question...if I eat at maintenance once or twice a week, is a diet break really necessary? I'm still losing about 1-.5lb a week.

heybales · February 2018

gamerbabe14 wrote: »

Question...if I eat at maintenance once or twice a week, is a diet break really necessary? I'm still losing about 1-.5lb a week.

Within the first few pages are some finer points as to WHY the 2 days in a row in studies have shown extra benefits for hormonal regulation.

So just like most things it seems like - doing it a specific way shows best results, doing it slightly different can still show results. Shoot, like the start of weight loss, do many things wrong and still lose.

But what you can make happen that helps you adhere and sustain trumps minor efficiency improvements.
Like if 2 days at maintenance made you binge mid-way through the deficit days - any efficiency improvements are lost.

anubis609 · February 2018

heybales wrote: »

gamerbabe14 wrote: »

Question...if I eat at maintenance once or twice a week, is a diet break really necessary? I'm still losing about 1-.5lb a week.

Within the first few pages are some finer points as to WHY the 2 days in a row in studies have shown extra benefits for hormonal regulation.

So just like most things it seems like - doing it a specific way shows best results, doing it slightly different can still show results. Shoot, like the start of weight loss, do many things wrong and still lose.

But what you can make happen that helps you adhere and sustain trumps minor efficiency improvements.
Like if 2 days at maintenance made you binge mid-way through the deficit days - any efficiency improvements are lost.

Very much so. As much as studies show what might be the ideal, it's always going to come down to individualized patterns that actually work to adhere to your diet. Diet breaks serving as a mental and physiological reprieve from being in a chronic deficit

I will reiterate that if a person starts their diet in an overfat state, they have enough energy stores to support an extended dieting period. The diet break as discussed in this thread is to address the problems leaner dieters run into when trying to maximize fat loss and have been in a chronic dieting phase, AKA they're on a permacut.

Not to say that normal or over fat dieters can't run into the same problems, but generally, the leaner they are, the harder they feel the effects of a diet, simply because there's not enough body fat to sustain a long dieting period.

Losing scale weight, which can be psychologically motivating, isn't necessarily the same as knowing that hormone response is slowly down regulating to meet a reduced energy intake. Just pay attention to overall mood, hunger, energy, recovery, rest, etc. to let you know whether or not you might be cutting too aggressively or for too long.

All in all, do you need to have a diet break? The short answer is eventually; everyone benefits to have one at some point. But when that happens is dependent per person.

Psychgrrl · February 2018

@anubis609 "permacut" ... I like that!

So true. The idea of a giving up deficit, especially after losing a lot of weight over the long term can be very difficult, psychologically, to give up. Even with a small deficit, such as that for a recomp, feels like the new normal. And truly eating at maintenance can feel like over-eating, perhaps even a binge for that person.

For many people, "normal" portions are so oversized (Hello, Cheesecake Factory!). However, for us long-term losers/maintainers, I think "normal" can come from a very different perspective. Weighing and measuring, we know what portions are in relation to the serving size on the packaging--how they were intended.

Changing from a weight-loss deficit to a recomp deficit was challenging, and still is. I am definitely worried about regaining weight. (I gave away all my fat clothes--no safety blanket!) It was "safer" to go into recomp.

Meeting, gotta run!

anubis609 · February 2018

@Psychgrrl yup, I've been on a permacut for the majority of my lean/dieting years (read: every year until the last couple of months lol)

For long-term dieters, a deficit is much easier to comprehend and technically, somewhat easier to adhere to since we just need to reduce the energy coming in vs out, with energy balance.

Maintenance of permanent/long-term fat loss is the ultimate goal, but is conceptually more difficult when you have to balance both sides of the equation in=out.

And being on a controlled bulk might sound easy (eat more), but comes with psychological obstacles that need to be overcome; i.e. the acceptance that *some* fat gain is going to occur when in an energy surplus. Whether that triggers binge episodes, anxiety in fat regain, negatively affects perceived body image, or some other hurdle, but it's partly why a bulk is not frequently as suggested.

Just to drive the recomp point home, it's perhaps a good strategy for most currently dieting individuals. The idea is that you gain muscle and simultaneously lose fat while in a caloric deficit (via strength/resistance training), and can very much be done in (normal/overfat) beginners, previously trained athletes after a layoff, or drug enhanced athletes, but in leaner, experienced, natural athletes it's a very difficult task.

Gaintaining/leanbulking might be a better strategy in the latter group, which is the same idea of a recomp (to gain muscle and lose fat), however, there are periods of undulating maintenance/slight surplus with deficit days or periods, as opposed to being in a steady deficit. Mechanisms involved to gaintain/leanbulk are current energy stores (body fat) to support the energy demand of training.

https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/qa-fat-loss-fat-loss/bodyrecomposition-mailbag-4.html/#more-13956

https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/

gamerbabe14 · February 2018

heybales wrote: »

gamerbabe14 wrote: »

Question...if I eat at maintenance once or twice a week, is a diet break really necessary? I'm still losing about 1-.5lb a week.

Within the first few pages are some finer points as to WHY the 2 days in a row in studies have shown extra benefits for hormonal regulation.

So just like most things it seems like - doing it a specific way shows best results, doing it slightly different can still show results. Shoot, like the start of weight loss, do many things wrong and still lose.

But what you can make happen that helps you adhere and sustain trumps minor efficiency improvements.
Like if 2 days at maintenance made you binge mid-way through the deficit days - any efficiency improvements are lost.

I've spent some time reading the thread and also listening to some of the great videos. I was under the impression that the diet break was longer than 2 days and a refeed was 1-2 days of a higher carb diet. So if I was already at maintenance frequently enough, would taking a 1-2 week diet break aide me when back in deficit or if I am already getting some of that benefit today. Psychologically, I'm feeling good.

anubis609 · February 2018

gamerbabe14 wrote: »

heybales wrote: »

gamerbabe14 wrote: »

Question...if I eat at maintenance once or twice a week, is a diet break really necessary? I'm still losing about 1-.5lb a week.

Within the first few pages are some finer points as to WHY the 2 days in a row in studies have shown extra benefits for hormonal regulation.

So just like most things it seems like - doing it a specific way shows best results, doing it slightly different can still show results. Shoot, like the start of weight loss, do many things wrong and still lose.

But what you can make happen that helps you adhere and sustain trumps minor efficiency improvements.
Like if 2 days at maintenance made you binge mid-way through the deficit days - any efficiency improvements are lost.

I've spent some time reading the thread and also listening to some of the great videos. I was under the impression that the diet break was longer than 2 days and a refeed was 1-2 days of a higher carb diet. So if I was already at maintenance frequently enough, would taking a 1-2 week diet break aide me when back in deficit or if I am already getting some of that benefit today. Psychologically, I'm feeling good.

You're correct. The diet break is a literal break from dieting to eat at or around maintenance for an extended period of time, 1-2+ weeks.

At your current pace, if you are eating maintenance calories intermittently during your dieting phase - by definition "dieting phase" is a net calorie deficit on average - then you wouldn't need the diet break necessarily, if you're not feeling any of the hard negative effects.

Obviously, there's a point where you literally couldn't lose any more body fat and survive (talking about essential body fat requirements), but for the most part, the way you've set your eating pattern is fine. It's what is allowing you to continue dieting without it being too aggressive.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

bmeadows380 · February 2018

I'm struggling with myself at the moment. I've had the same deficit level for a couple of months now, but lately, I haven't been able to limit myself to that level, and I find myself hungry and feeling a little deprived. I haven't lost anything in over 2 weeks and instead have been bouncing around the same 0.5 lb gain, and my measurements haven't changed in a month. It's almost like my body is forcing me into a diet break or has decided to take one for itself!

I'm still trying to get to the point where I can mentally accept that, though. I'm having a hard time giving myself that permission for a long term break, especially as I still haven't hit my current short goal of 260 lbs. I had told myself that once I hit 260, I'd take a month or two diet break; well, my body seems to have decided it didn't want to wait lol I guess its still trying to play catch-up with the major changes that has happened to it this year!

Though I'm still not sure if I should officially raise my calorie limit to a maintenance level. I'm eating over my 1400 calorie limit pretty much every day, but find that since I hate seeing a red number, once it the negative part gets to 100 or so, its easier to stop. I'd be afraid that if I raised it to say 2000 that I'd still end up going over.

I swear that the mental war is so much harder than the actual physical one!

nexangelus · February 2018

News on the post bulk.

Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.

Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?

bbell1985 · February 2018

nexangelus wrote: »

News on the post bulk.

Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.

Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?

Dang. Wish I could eat that much. I'm on the poverty macros for life team.

GottaBurnEmAll · February 2018

I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.

One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.

The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.

The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.

The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.

heybales · February 2018

nexangelus wrote: »

News on the post bulk.

Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.

Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?

Are your workouts in the morning to benefit from increased eating that day?

If in the evening, may I suggest increased level the 24 hrs after the workout.
Get the 24 hrs reduced level prior to workout. Except for whatever is needed to have a good workout.

Since recovery and repair happens 24-48 hr after a good workout, that could be why you are hungry.

Terebynthia · February 2018

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

I'm still here! I'm still very much focusing on behaviors and compliance, as I still am finding that stepping on the scale and dealing with fluctuations was playing into my "getting into disordered territory" thinking.

One major on the cusp of victory I've managed to eke out of myself is forcing myself to log my off piste behavior, even if it was retroactive logging. I have found that to be a game changer in several ways.

The first time I logged it, I was surprised to find out I was only over maintenance by 400 calories.

The second time I logged it, I did it after I ate the whole bag of chocolate nutty bites, but on the same day, and I managed my behavior the rest of the day, fighting the "eff it, might as well go all in now" voice in the back of my head that usually wins on those occasions. I logged the rest of the day and somehow managed, in spite of those 1100 calories of chocolate bliss, to have a small deficit for the day. I also managed to have my full protein intake. We won't tell my doctor about my fat intake, though.

The third time I was tempted to go off piste, I had two potato chips, logged them and decided I didn't want any more because I really wanted the popcorn I had planned later that night, so I told my inner binge girl to stfu. This was just yesterday. The popcorn was awesome, btw.

That's very much my approach - my off pistes tend to be too much wine then screw it food related. I have a TDEE estimation spreadsheet courtesy of r/loseit, and I've made it my goal to log an accurate count from MFP in there as far as I am able, even if it contains too much booze and Marmite on toast!

mph323 · February 2018

heybales wrote: »

nexangelus wrote: »

News on the post bulk.

Two weeks at deficit (almost, as have been really hungry trying to cut down to 2250 instead of 3000 per day and first week was zero deficit) and I am losing again. 1.6 lbs down, 32 or so to go. Have been playing with eating 2710ish training days and 1600ish rest days. Ooof, no matter which way I slice it my belly wants more food! My maintenance cals are 2600ish so the deficit is not steep! But am soldiering on. Next diet break not too far off, holiday in Easter break end of March.

Maybe 14 days at maintenance post bulk would have been a more gradual approach?

Are your workouts in the morning to benefit from increased eating that day?

If in the evening, may I suggest increased level the 24 hrs after the workout.
Get the 24 hrs reduced level prior to workout. Except for whatever is needed to have a good workout.

Since recovery and repair happens 24-48 hr after a good workout, that could be why you are hungry.

Cool, a new insight for me! I'm never particularly hungry after strenuous cardio like running or biking, but I'm ravenous the next day (which was really screwing with my head when I was trying to go by daily calories rather than weekly). And I knew about the 24 - 48 hour post-exercise recovery period, but didn't really put the two things together. Duh!

Of refeeds and diet breaks

Replies

Categories