Ketogenic diet
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TyTravis007 wrote: »
But you can't say for sure you wouldn't have made more gains on keto. Nobody said that you can't make gains on keto, but most studies show that keto is the least optimal for preserving muscle loss on a fat loss.I have been low carb for 2 years and have made good gains and lost plenty of fat. I am not strict keto due to eating more protein but still consume plenty of fat and limit carb intake.
Cite those studies. I would love to read them since I'm someone who has been doing keto for 3+ years and have preserved + gained muscle and lost fat under the diet.
Do you think that might have more to do with growing from a 16 year old boy into a 19 year old man?
Those "golden training years" for a male change the context quite a bit!
No kidding. In that age bracket, with all their hormones peaking, one could eat just about anything and still experience gains as long as they were training even halfway efficiently.5 -
Curious why so many are hung on people doing keto? The goal is to have a healthy lifestyle. Being either low carb or low fat is besides the primary objective, which is finding a way that works for you. There are plenty of studies supporting both sides and plenty that show both are not sustainable or healthy.
Nobody is "hung up on people doing keto", as far as I can see. What people are taking exception to are the magical, mystical claims of keto being equated to wizardry and defying human physiology.
Personally, I couldn't care less how anybody else wants to eat - it's your life, have at it. But if one is into eating sawdust and squished bugs and they start telling everybody that sawdust and squished bugs are magical and everybody should do it, they should probably expect to get called out on it and asked to provide evidence of same.
Not everyone shares your opinion. Many times people say they do low carb or keto and people jump in and challenge you. It happened with my very first post in this thread. Sure there are plenty of people that talk keto up. Most people do for things that work for them. They are excited to share their experiences. Same goes with people doing high carb low fat.8 -
TyTravis007 wrote: »
But you can't say for sure you wouldn't have made more gains on keto. Nobody said that you can't make gains on keto, but most studies show that keto is the least optimal for preserving muscle loss on a fat loss.I have been low carb for 2 years and have made good gains and lost plenty of fat. I am not strict keto due to eating more protein but still consume plenty of fat and limit carb intake.
Cite those studies. I would love to read them since I'm someone who has been doing keto for 3+ years and have preserved + gained muscle and lost fat under the diet.
Those studies have been posted for you in multiple threads. Did you bother to read them or do you just keep asking for the same thing proved to you over and over?10 -
TyTravis007 wrote: »
But you can't say for sure you wouldn't have made more gains on keto. Nobody said that you can't make gains on keto, but most studies show that keto is the least optimal for preserving muscle loss on a fat loss.I have been low carb for 2 years and have made good gains and lost plenty of fat. I am not strict keto due to eating more protein but still consume plenty of fat and limit carb intake.
Cite those studies. I would love to read them since I'm someone who has been doing keto for 3+ years and have preserved + gained muscle and lost fat under the diet.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
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TyTravis007 wrote: »
But you can't say for sure you wouldn't have made more gains on keto. Nobody said that you can't make gains on keto, but most studies show that keto is the least optimal for preserving muscle loss on a fat loss.I have been low carb for 2 years and have made good gains and lost plenty of fat. I am not strict keto due to eating more protein but still consume plenty of fat and limit carb intake.
Cite those studies. I would love to read them since I'm someone who has been doing keto for 3+ years and have preserved + gained muscle and lost fat under the diet.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
Exactly. Posted for him after his request in another thread. (where is that eyeroll icon??)
So many questions, so few answers......5 -
Packerjohn wrote: »If CICO wasn't that simple, all people would have to do to lose weight is eat only fatty foods without limits....but how is it that they would still gain weight by doing that? Oh right, CICO which is why people post on mfp their frustrations over their weight gain on keto. They fail to realize that they still need to do CICO. And if you're someone who works out, keto is the worst diet you can do to preserve muscles. Studies after studies show it. There's a reason why athletes like Michael Phelps eat a ton of carbs and are not asked by their trainers to go on a ketogenic diet.
Not personally for or against keto, but not realistic to bring someone who was/is in the top .00001% or so of the world's population as a athlete in as example for anything. I'm pretty sure the average 40 year old that lifts 3-4 times a week and runs a bit could fuel fine on a keto diet.
99% of athletes use high carb diets, why do you think they do it? Just for fun? NHL players for example eat a lot of pasta...wether it's Phelps or some 4th liner in the NHL, what they all have in common is they eat a *kitten* load of carbs. How is it that in Asia, the people are small and thin despite being a continent that eat a lot of carbs (especially rice)?9 -
Yes! It works for me, the only way I have been able to lose weight, feel energetically great, and don’t crave sweets any more5
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TyTravis007 wrote: »
But you can't say for sure you wouldn't have made more gains on keto. Nobody said that you can't make gains on keto, but most studies show that keto is the least optimal for preserving muscle loss on a fat loss.I have been low carb for 2 years and have made good gains and lost plenty of fat. I am not strict keto due to eating more protein but still consume plenty of fat and limit carb intake.
Cite those studies. I would love to read them since I'm someone who has been doing keto for 3+ years and have preserved + gained muscle and lost fat under the diet.
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
(where is that eyeroll icon??)
Not getting into the debate. But for future reference..
4 -
Ive been on keto diet for 4 months now. Works great for me. I generally dont feel as hungry as before. I wasnt a big fan of carbs before anyways, so it is much easier for me to stick to keto diet. It is pretty restrictive, but you can always find a keto recipe of the food you cravet. I enjoy exploring recipes and cooking for myself. And i love meat! My weight dropped from 120lbs to 113lbs in 4 months, body fat drop to 22%. Not that much, but i didnt have much weight to loose and i wasnt very strict with calories either. So I am pretty satified with the result.
maybe for some ppl, cut out carb is too much, but definately try cut out sugar!12 -
I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.3
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I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros6 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.4 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Exactly right.
The only exception seems to MCT oils which get changed to ketones very readily. Otherwise ketosis comes from low carbs or very low calories (which often means low carbs).
Ketogenic diets can be moderate fat and higher protein, which could lower your ketone levels somewhat, but that will often not be an issue for people unless they want high ketones for medical reasons.2 -
well yeah that but your body needs fat to make ketones,fat is the preferred energy source.and still another claim stating that a person lost more weight on keto than on a regular diet. and if not paying any mind to macros how in the world is anyone going to know if they are getting enough fat to fuel their body? how do they know if they are low carb if they dont count? wouldnt it be hard to get a lot of fiber in a low carb diet?CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
There are multiple types of keto, but even the modified keto diet doesn't restrict protein that much. It's often recommended to go to 20 or 25% of their calories. Ideally, that would fall within the range of 1.5 to 2.2g/kg.2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
I found out the hard way the Ketogenic Way Of Eating is not doable with an unresolved carb addiction so it is not a WOE for everyone I agree.12 -
Packerjohn wrote: »If CICO wasn't that simple, all people would have to do to lose weight is eat only fatty foods without limits....but how is it that they would still gain weight by doing that? Oh right, CICO which is why people post on mfp their frustrations over their weight gain on keto. They fail to realize that they still need to do CICO. And if you're someone who works out, keto is the worst diet you can do to preserve muscles. Studies after studies show it. There's a reason why athletes like Michael Phelps eat a ton of carbs and are not asked by their trainers to go on a ketogenic diet.
Not personally for or against keto, but not realistic to bring someone who was/is in the top .00001% or so of the world's population as a athlete in as example for anything. I'm pretty sure the average 40 year old that lifts 3-4 times a week and runs a bit could fuel fine on a keto diet.
99% of athletes use high carb diets, why do you think they do it? Just for fun? NHL players for example eat a lot of pasta...wether it's Phelps or some 4th liner in the NHL, what they all have in common is they eat a *kitten* load of carbs. How is it that in Asia, the people are small and thin despite being a continent that eat a lot of carbs (especially rice)?
Could it be they need 5000+ calories a day due to their activity level? Again, not picking sides in the discussion, but a typical person, working out maybe an hour a day, a super high carb diet isn't required to support the activity.
In many parts of Asia traditionally there has been high levels of poverty and manual labor. Now as incomes increase and less manual labor, the obesity levels are increasing. This article states China now has a larger % of obese individuals vs the US.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminshobert/2017/01/22/chinas-growing-obesity-problem/#39fa3ff06ecf1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »If CICO wasn't that simple, all people would have to do to lose weight is eat only fatty foods without limits....but how is it that they would still gain weight by doing that? Oh right, CICO which is why people post on mfp their frustrations over their weight gain on keto. They fail to realize that they still need to do CICO. And if you're someone who works out, keto is the worst diet you can do to preserve muscles. Studies after studies show it. There's a reason why athletes like Michael Phelps eat a ton of carbs and are not asked by their trainers to go on a ketogenic diet.
Not personally for or against keto, but not realistic to bring someone who was/is in the top .00001% or so of the world's population as a athlete in as example for anything. I'm pretty sure the average 40 year old that lifts 3-4 times a week and runs a bit could fuel fine on a keto diet.
99% of athletes use high carb diets, why do you think they do it? Just for fun? NHL players for example eat a lot of pasta...wether it's Phelps or some 4th liner in the NHL, what they all have in common is they eat a *kitten* load of carbs. How is it that in Asia, the people are small and thin despite being a continent that eat a lot of carbs (especially rice)?
Could it be they need 5000+ calories a day due to their activity level? Again, not picking sides in the discussion, but a typical person, working out maybe an hour a day, a super high carb diet isn't required to support the activity.
In many parts of Asia traditionally there has been high levels of poverty and manual labor. Now as incomes increase and less manual labor, the obesity levels are increasing. This article states China now has a larger % of obese individuals vs the US.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminshobert/2017/01/22/chinas-growing-obesity-problem/#39fa3ff06ecf
I think you missed out the point completely. When you are doing physical activities, athletes use carbs for source of energy and let's face it, you have more strength with water and glycogen in your muscles than without it, so why would an athlete be at a disadvantage by getting rid of it completely which keto would do (same applies to people who go to the gym). Without carbs, you're not going to give out an optimal performance. And your basically proving my point about CICO. A lot of people actually do believe carbs make people fat (just go read in the losing weight section in mfp), but with your point, you just proved that cutting out fat is unecessary because it's all about CICO in the end. Heck I lost 25 lbs with carbs in my diet and no cardio, how can one explain that if CICO doesn't apply and carbs make people fat like some people claim?
As I stated before, if you accept and understand CICO as a fact and you still decide to go keto because you enjoy that diet....that's not a problem. The problem comes from people who don't know any better and spread out bad information about keto like being the best diet out there when studies after study show that it's not any better or worse....So a gullible desperate obese person who hears that bs thinks the only way to lose weight is by doing keto because carbs are bad. I see that a lot in the forum and I also see a lot of posts "Why am I still not losing weight despite doing keto?".8 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
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