Ketogenic diet
Replies
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I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
The negativity isn't aimed at keto. It is a valid choice if that is someone's preference. Your implication that keto carries some fat loss advantage that trumps energy balance is what is being challenged.
As other have said, if you have studies, or meta-analyses or scholarly article that support your assertion, please post them. That is how debates work. Debates generally do not work by accusing others of "negativity" or telling them to do their research while not presenting any of your own.
FTR, I've done my research and posted a meta-analysis earlier in the thread. In it, there was no advantage demonstrated for wieght/ fat loss over other forms of calorie restriction. Maybe you should take a look.6 -
I did keto for a couple of months over a year ago. Now, this is my experience, but I absolutely hated it. I was tired, lethargic, weak, had headaches, had zero stamina at the gym. I was in ketosis (I was testing with the strips frequently), but I felt depleted. I supplemented with magnesium and potassium and nothing worked with my energy levels. On top of that, I didn't lose a single pound. I rage quit the thing, and started eating all the carbs. All the good, delicious carbs, and my energy increased, my workouts got better, and I no longer felt like I was walking in a fog. Again, this is just my experience, but I would never do it again. I'm tracking macros and seeing results without cutting anything out. You have to find what works for you, but keto was not it for me.4
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I'm not into debating but will state my experience.
I've been low carb for ~5 years.
2013-14, I ate at a calorie deficit to lose my excess 60 pounds.
2014-15, I continued with low carb at maintenance calories
In 2016, I opted for keto for 52 weeks eating less than 20 carbs per day. Strictly measured maintenance calories.
In 2017, I continued with very LCHF eating ~50 carbs per day.
In 2018, I've flexed a bit on carbs and fat but still eat what most would consider a ketogenic diet... most days.
Regardless of the calorie calculators/TDEE calculators-keto or otherwise-they all tend to be about the same in their estimates for the amount of calories I can eat in order to maintain my weight. Unfortunately none of those darn keto calculators give me a higher number. And so, I have adhered to the average and eaten the same amount "forever". And maintained. (I find MFP to be accurate in my case).
I'm not super motivated to exercise (except during weight loss, year 1) but sometimes I get a wild hair to get out and walk at a brisk pace regularly for 3-5 miles. I can eat a little more then but not much. A couple hundred calories at most, which is just a couple of eggs or a couple small chunks of cheese.
I tend to not eat back my "extra" calories becsuse for some odd reason 
I get most motivated to take regular brisk walks every day when I've hit my maximum maintenance weight range. 
CICO. The benefit I have found (for me) is LCHF tends to eliminate the hunger I experienced previously. Nothing more. Adherence to calories is easier.
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I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
Not exactly sure what you are trying to say with the bolded, but if you think that saying keto works well as a strategy for reducing calories for a lot of people, but does not cause weight loss without a calorie deficit = being negative about keto, I think you have a really weird definition of negativity.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
Not exactly sure what you are trying to say with the bolded, but if you think that saying keto works well as a strategy for reducing calories for a lot of people, but does not cause weight loss without a calorie deficit = being negative about keto, I think you have a really weird definition of negativity.
I wonder if it's a backslap, kind of trying to say "if you had followed Keto you would be at goal and wouldn't still be here on the message board". When really it's the other way around. This is a fun board (I enjoy the train wrecks) and the people who have high post counts have seen the conversations go round and round. They know the deal and the science.2 -
Yeah, lots of us are here for the conversations, not the weight loss (anymore).4
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Yup one of many long time posters who isn't trying to lose weight (and never was actually)1
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I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
There isn't negativity aimed at keto, though it's taken that way since there's a plethora of cognitive dissonance in keto/lchf echo chambers. Personal anecdotes, n=1, subjective experience, etc. are not objective data. They are helpful to that specific person, but are limited in that same right.
When presented with evidence, it is usually those in the keto community that tends to get riled up and form a mob mentality against naysayers who "dismiss" n=1 data. The same can be said for dieters and fitpros who may never had personal experience with diabetes or severe obesity, however, the overarching premise is that because neither dieter has experienced the other's life, arguing which approach is best becomes a moot point.
I trend a low[er] carb diet by choice and belong to multiple keto groups, yet I don't adhere to one set rule for everyone. Based on my observation, keto zealots become easy targets because of how easily triggered they become when faced with challenging views. Not that they're completely wrong, but when emotions cloud factual reasoning, it becomes an exchange of ad hominems and strawman fallacies.
Frankly, ALL DIETS WORK in the fact that they follow some form of energy balance manipulation by creating a deficit. Full stop. Whether people actively or passively track intake, the end result is the same: a reduction in chronic intake pattern results in fat loss. Fat loss produces positive changes in health, mood, energy levels, self-image, etc. Protein will never not be a priority macronutrient. The ratio of carbs:fat are irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Ketosis is irrelevant to fat loss.
The hierarchy of nutrition will always follow calories > macros > micros > nutrient timing > supplements, in that order. Meaning calories/energy balance will always be the foundation for what governs fat gain or fat loss.13 -
I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
The negativity towards the keto community is not aimed at keto per say, it's aimed towards the people who give really poor information and I am amazed at how many keto followers don't believe in CICO.....it's the equivalent of a person still believing that the world is flat and that the Earth is the center of the universe.12 -
macrologger wrote: »I did keto for a couple of months over a year ago. Now, this is my experience, but I absolutely hated it. I was tired, lethargic, weak, had headaches, had zero stamina at the gym. I was in ketosis (I was testing with the strips frequently), but I felt depleted. I supplemented with magnesium and potassium and nothing worked with my energy levels. On top of that, I didn't lose a single pound. I rage quit the thing, and started eating all the carbs. All the good, delicious carbs, and my energy increased, my workouts got better, and I no longer felt like I was walking in a fog. Again, this is just my experience, but I would never do it again. I'm tracking macros and seeing results without cutting anything out. You have to find what works for you, but keto was not it for me.
I had the same issue but for me I have a genetic defect that makes it to where my body cant process fats and cholesterol properly and it gets stored in my body. I lost water weight but I thought by month 2 I was dying I felt so bad.4 -
wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.36 -
I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
Not negativity aimed at keto...it's a valid way of eating...it's all of the claims that you don't have to worry about calories and that keto is a cure all and has other magical properties.
Also...post counts? Many of us have already done what we needed to do and are in maintenance...some of us have been for years. This is My FITNESS Pal, no My Weightloss Pal...there are numerous reasons to be here beyond weight loss...
Just sayin'...
I would also assume you're one of those keto evangelists that just assumes if people aren't eating keto that they're just eating a bunch of junk and sugar and highly refined carbs...
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catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
First of all, there is a difference between carbs and ultra-refined carbs that arguments like yours often gloss over. And FYI, ultra-processed carbs often come combined with ultra-refined fat, but for some reason that isn't important.
The insulin response is perfectly normal in healthy people, it's literally how your body works, it's how energy gets into your cells.
Regardless, I have always eaten @ 50% carbs, and a decent amount of processed foods mixed in with whole foods. Over the course of my 30s I gained about 20 lbs. Still not overweight, just the high side of healthy. When I hit 40, I started eating the same foods, but at a 250 calorie deficit. It was hardly noticable. Over a year, I lost that 20 lbs, and have been maintaining for 2 years by just bumping my calories back up that 250 calories. I can actually eat more food now than I want to. My blood work is perfect, except for high HDL cholesterol which runs in the family. I am not an athlete, but I try to walk and exercise a bit. There has been no crazy sugar roller coaster, no extreme restriction, no pre-diabetes or huge weight gain. I'm not addicted to anything, and I don't need to restrict anything.
Also, the Mediterranean diet you mention is naturally pretty high carb. As are the traditional diets in the Blue Zones.
If LCHF or Keto is a natural and comfortable way for a person to eat, then more power to 'em. It's not the food plans that get people riled up, it's the people who insist their way of eating has special powers or is the one true way.14 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
First of all, there is a difference between carbs and ultra-refined carbs that arguments like yours often gloss over. And FYI, ultra-processed carbs often come combined with ultra-refined fat, but for some reason that isn't important.
The insulin response is perfectly normal in healthy people, it's literally how your body works, it's how energy gets into your cells.
Regardless, I have always eaten @ 50% carbs, and a decent amount of processed foods mixed in with whole foods. Over the course of my 30s I gained about 20 lbs. Still not overweight, just the high side of healthy. When I hit 40, I started eating the same foods, but at a 250 calorie deficit. It was hardly noticable. Over a year, I lost that 20 lbs, and have been maintaining for 2 years by just bumping my calories back up that 250 calories. I can actually eat more food now than I want to. My blood work is perfect, except for high HDL cholesterol which runs in the family. I am not an athlete, but I try to walk and exercise a bit. There has been no crazy sugar roller coaster, no extreme restriction, no pre-diabetes or huge weight gain. I'm not addicted to anything, and I don't need to restrict anything.
Also, the Mediterranean diet you mention is naturally pretty high carb. As are the traditional diets in the Blue Zones.
If LCHF or Keto is a natural and comfortable way for a person to eat, then more power to 'em. It's not the food plans that get people riled up, it's the people who insist their way of eating has special powers or is the one true way.
I've never gotten an answer from any ketovangelist on the subject of the blue zones.9 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
So much nonsense, my eyes are bleeding from having read all this crap. And then people wonder why keto and vegans get all kinds of hate13 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
Good thing it's not inherently bad for your health...14 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
People get fat due to a prolonged calorie surplus not the perfectly normal insulin response to eating.
I lost my weight eating what is sounds like you would call a high carb diet and as a retired gentlemen who is only 5'9 my maintenance level is about 3000cals/day. My metabolism is working just fine. I didn't need a high deficit to lose my excess weight either.
I wish you luck in controlling your condition but please remember you only have a net storage of fat in an energy surplus irrespective of the macro proportions of your diet. Maybe a look outside your border would widen your horizons? A visit to some of the Mediterranean countries or Asia perhaps then you might understand their diets better.
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I'm low fat low fiber for medical reasons. I don't have a weight problem though i sometimes dip too low and need to gain. I have gastroparesis (delayed gastric emptying) and fat and fiber slow down stomach emptying even more so they cause more trouble than they are worth. I don't have diabetes or prediabetes but diabetes causes about 1/3 of gastroparesis cases. Those poor diabetics can't eat keto.3
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catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
I've been what would be considered high carb eater (50% and over of diet on a daily basis), including eating a measured amount of desert (candy, cookies, cake - whatever) every day. And I've done that while maintaining a 50 pound weight loss for 17 years. And have excellent blood work.
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catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease.
Because we say that keto does not magically mean calories don't matter we have carb addictions?
Or is it that some people didn't enjoy keto?
I liked keto well enough last year at this time, but I missed fruit (I guess that's my carb addiction kicking it), wanted to eat less meat (for which legumes and particular are helpful), and found it annoying that eating slightly less vegetables than I normally prefer and some nuts and dairy tended to kick me over my carb goal (which was around 35 g net, 60-65 g total, which lots of people seems to think was less desirable to crazy low goals like 20 g under which I could not have consumed nearly enough veg, for my ideas anyway).
So I guess that's a carb addiction?
Weird how it's supposed to be a bad thing for low fat if people don't stick to it, but if people don't like low carb, they are addicted. (I'd say simply that different diets work for different people.)
Also, thanks for the lecture on how not being low carb causes IR, which I don't have and so far have no reason to think I am at risk of. (Eating carbs in the context of an overall healthful diet -- just like eating fat in the context of an overall healthful diet is, of course, not a health risk. As others have said, the blue zones are a good counterexample, and the US is not especially high carb as a percentage. It's actually considered more high fat, although what it really is is high cal.)yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism.
Low carbing does not change the amount of calories needed to maintain.
My maintenance doesn't require "extreme calorie restriction," either.as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
You don't add net fat to your fat stores in a calorie deficit or at maintenance.I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity.
If you like that, great for you.
Plenty of people on MFP have gone into remission through other means (often just losing weight and eating a healthful diet).
One of the best things for increased insulin sensitivity, btw, is exercise. Weird how things that are clearly important for health (weight loss, exercise) get dismissed by those who want to claim health is all about eating like they do.Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal.
Why on earth is cutting out whole grains, legumes (IMO, one of the healthiest foods), and dairy beneficial. None of those are even refined carbs.
My diet, before and after weight loss, is not and has never been high in refined carbs. Seems like you are projecting your own stuff onto others.Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
No evidence that keto is beneficial for longevity. I'm interested in longevity and have been reading about it lately, and while clearly it's not helped by diets high in refined carbs and added sugar (which no one recommends), it doesn't seem that carbs in general are a problem (and lots of plant foods -- like what I found difficult to fit in on keto -- may well be a plus). Also lifestyle and being active.13 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
The healthiest and longest living places in the world are all high carb low fat... Not one is keto or low carb by nature. Going low fat high carb also doesnt mean eating a ton of junk food, just like keto doesn't mean you should down tons of pork rinds, processed meats and eat tons of butter.
Also, the body doesnt need insulin to store fat. Carbs actually store as fat less often as demonstrated by de novo lipogenesis studies.13 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
Nope. I've dropped 100lbs in 16 months on 50% carbs. My health markers have improved across the board, my heart is in fantastic shape, and there's nothing extreme about my calorie restriction.
Diabetes often does require a carb restriction, much like celiac disease requires avoidance of gluten. For you, carbs are an issue. For me? They're filling, delicious, and full of vital nutrients. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to check on my white bean, chard and millet casserole. 47 grams of carbs per serving and worth every last one of them!7 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
carbs are not bad and they arent going to cause those issues,most people who have those issues either are overweight,have a genetic defect that can cause it,or have a health issue or a combo of those things. lots of the heart disease issues are caused from being overweight, genetics, certain illnesses/infections can cause issues with your heart. smoking can also cause it.
if carbs are bad then you must not eat veggies,fruit or dairy. its possible you became type 2 due to one or a few of the factors above. not everyone who has diabetes need to go low carb either,for some its a need for others not so much. many find just losing weight helps with their insulin and they have less of a need for meds
I am not insulin resistant, I dont have diabetes,Im not even pre diabetic,even when I was obese I had none of these issues. I lost a lot of fat. I cant do high fat diets due to a genetic defect. Ive been eating this way for a few years now. you dont get fat in a deficit of calories no matter how you eat,it doesnt work that way. I even eat refined carbs and my blood markers have improved including my cholesterol for the first time in 15 years(which is also genetic for me).
Im sure its due to the weight loss. and for me low fat is the only way I can eat since my body cant process fats and cholesterol properly and it does get stored in my body(mainly arteries and in the form of fat pads) but I still lost a LOT of fat eating in a deficit. I lost a total of 30+ inches on my measurements. I even lost my fat pads I had on my one knee and the ones on my ankle are barely noticeable now.
I get blood work done every 3 months. so far so good.
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catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
It is exactly this kind of irrational, non-factual kind of argument that turns people off to keto evengelizers. Keto can be a good diet for some to control cravings and, as in your case, increase insulin sensitivity. But don't delude yourself. It isn't carbs and insulin that made you fat. It was a prolonged period of eating more calories than you burned.
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catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
This is the type of cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier, where challenging responses to a ketogenic diet somehow must be linked to a hand in pushing for high carb, understood as the obesogenic standard Western diet high in refined carbohydrates, without regard for nutrient density.
The insulin-carbohydrate theory of obesity is easy to fall back on and is readily the sole argument for metabolic distress used by keto advocates. If many lchf dieters also try to adhere to the ketogenic ratio of macronutrient composition as it was proposed for epileptic children, with a 4:1 fat:protein ratio, then there are definite counter arguments for that approach since a high flux of circulating fatty acids may actually exacerbate insulin resistance in the absence of carbohydrates.
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/11/5475
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/5/517
I suggest that all dieters, keto especially, get a firm grasp of substrate metabolism within the body. Cellular energy status is going to dictate whether hormones initiate energy storage or usage. A good friend phrased it in this way: insulin can't store the fat you don't eat. At the same time, insulin's primary job is not to counter hyperglycemia, rather it regulates the amount of fatty acid in circulation as it corresponds to circulating glucose, which is explained by the Randle cycle. An inactive lifestyle coupled with being overfat hinders the metabolic flexibility that should normally occur, which is a precursor to metabolic disorders like diabetes. In other words, it's not because insulin isn't regulating glucose, it's because chronically high levels of glucose are circulating so much that there isn't enough insulin to regulate the fatty acids getting sent to the liver, pancreas, and other organs.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8136524_Substrate_cycling_between_de_novo_lipogenesis_and_lipid_oxidation_A_thermogenic_mechanism_against_skeletal_muscle_lipotoxicity_and_glucolipotoxicity
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2017.04.015
Finally, in the context of which macronutrient causes weight gain in a surplus, they all do due to the cellular energy status to drive substrate storage, however, overfeeding on protein actually may protect against significant amounts of fat gain with increases in fat free mass contributing to the weight gain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786199/17 -
singingflutelady wrote: »I'm low fat low fiber for medical reasons. I don't have a weight problem though i sometimes dip too low and need to gain. I have gastroparesis (delayed gastric emptying) and fat and fiber slow down stomach emptying even more so they cause more trouble than they are worth. I don't have diabetes or prediabetes but diabetes causes about 1/3 of gastroparesis cases. Those poor diabetics can't eat keto.
Yep. My husband is diabetic with gastroparesis. Low fat and low fibre is the way to go. Lots of white bread and white pasta. No way he could eat keto, he couldn’t even eat low carb.3 -
catherineg3 wrote: »wow, the carb addiction is strong with these people. eat carbs, body responds with high insulin, get fat (due to insulin response), build insulin resistance, pre-diabetes then possibly even moving up to diabetes and/or heart disease. yes, you can lose weight with high carb low fat and calorie restriction, but it is hard to stick with the extreme calorie restriction needed to maintain your new lower weight and lower metabolism. as long as you keep pouring sugar into your system, it will maintain higher insulin levels that tell your body to store more fat.
I am recently diagnosed type 2 diabetic and must go low carb permanently to control blood sugar levels, lose weight and regain insulin sensitivity. However, the more I find out about how our bodies work, I realize that I can fix this, and the main thing is STOP EATING REFINED CARBS. Even if you don't want to do a strict keto, look at paleo or primal. Even Mediterranian or South Beach diet would be an improvement over the typical American diet with more natural foods.
Longevity and good health are far more important to me than eating sugar.
This is the type of cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier, where challenging responses to a ketogenic diet somehow must be linked to a hand in pushing for high carb, understood as the obesogenic standard Western diet high in refined carbohydrates, without regard for nutrient density.
The insulin-carbohydrate theory of obesity is easy to fall back on and is readily the sole argument for metabolic distress used by keto advocates. If many lchf dieters also try to adhere to the ketogenic ratio of macronutrient composition as it was proposed for epileptic children, with a 4:1 fat:protein ratio, then there are definite counter arguments for that approach since a high flux of circulating fatty acids may actually exacerbate insulin resistance in the absence of carbohydrates.
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/11/5475
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/5/517
I suggest that all dieters, keto especially, get a firm grasp of substrate metabolism within the body. Cellular energy status is going to dictate whether hormones initiate energy storage or usage. A good friend phrased it in this way: insulin can't store the fat you don't eat. At the same time, insulin's primary job is not to counter hyperglycemia, rather it regulates the amount of fatty acid in circulation as it corresponds to circulating glucose, which is explained by the Randle cycle. An inactive lifestyle coupled with being overfat hinders the metabolic flexibility that should normally occur, which is a precursor to metabolic disorders like diabetes. In other words, it's not because insulin isn't regulating glucose, it's because chronically high levels of glucose are circulating so much that there isn't enough insulin to regulate the fatty acids getting sent to the liver, pancreas, and other organs.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8136524_Substrate_cycling_between_de_novo_lipogenesis_and_lipid_oxidation_A_thermogenic_mechanism_against_skeletal_muscle_lipotoxicity_and_glucolipotoxicity
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2017.04.015
Finally, in the context of which macronutrient causes weight gain in a surplus, they all do due to the cellular energy status to drive substrate storage, however, overfeeding on protein actually may protect against significant amounts of fat gain with increases in fat free mass contributing to the weight gain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786199/
Wish I could awesome this post a hundred times!4 -
https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/28/is-keto-the-cure-for-type-ii-diabetes
I like this WOE for the stated health and $$$ reasons in this article after 3.5 years of full time experience with it and now being 67 and having seen most all of my serious health resolve or are in the process of revolving.
How one thinks, eats and moves is one's own choice and I wish everyone could understand that fact.
It all boils down to n=1 results in the end since no to people are identical. If a WOE (macros) works for you then do that WOE until it does not work for you then modify it and let everyone else do the same.
12 -
The problem with n=1 results is that a layperson who is emotionally and psychologically invested in their own journey can easily attribute their results to the wrong thing.
No one is saying don't do keto even if it's working for you. They're saying don't attribute your success on keto to the idea that it supercedes CICO and don't tell other people it cures medical conditions or changes the laws of physics when the only "proof" available is that very subjective n=1.14 -
yes if you like it and it works and you make sure to take care of your micronutrients, no if you don't like it or can't do it responsibly. I lost over 70 pounds in like three months on keto and I loved it and would not be opposed to going back on it. I'm not doing it now because I'm unclear about how it would affect gaining muscle. It depends on the person, but personally, I would suggest anyone at least give it a go and see if it's for them.1
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