Opinions on the keto diet??
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FlyingMolly wrote: »As for minimizing: if you were keeping an eye on a hard upper carb limit I’m not sure how you could not.
My "hard" upper carb limit was 50 g net carbs, although I tried to keep it more like 35, as I said.
I decided to try keto after some discussions at MFP that got me curious, and when I was eating around 100-120 g on average before, so I was pretty aware of how I needed to cut carbs to get down to the desired level. My plan was not to cut vegetables at all, but to cut out fruit (other than avocado) and down to no more than one serving of greek yogurt or other more carby dairy (I generally eat 1-2 servings of nuts/seeds and planned to keep that the same).
I was a little surprised that I actually did have to watch my veg some or would go over. I do eat a lot of leafy greens, as they are very important to me, and of course they weren't the issue, but I like to have a good variety of other veg and was surprised at how carbs from things like broccoli and cauliflower and the aforementioned brussels sprouts, as well as things like leeks and onions, can add up. I generally think that when eating non starchy veg there shouldn't need to be a limit on them. I was still eating plenty of servings, but fewer than I prefer, and in an ideal world I'd like to be able to fit in fruit without cutting down on things I think are good for me like veg or nuts, and I also would prefer to get more of my protein from non animal sources like beans and lentils, so it wasn't a good fit, although it was an interesting experiment I'm glad I did, and I didn't dislike it.In my first couple weeks of keto I felt like I could barely spare the room for fruit or veggies, because they would cost me too many carbs and then I’d be stuck with none left at the end of the day and have to eat 400 calories of meat straight or something.
See, I started with the assumption that pretty much all my carbs would be vegetables, and that to me is a non negotiable that I would not cut. That's why I got a bad impression when I decided to try a keto challenge (for fun and encouragement from other newbies) and got told that more than 20 was doing it wrong, and when I said I couldn't imagine getting that low without cutting veg was told that that was what I should do.
I will emphasize that this did not happen in the Low Carb group, which I think is a great resource and full of people with an openness to the whole spectrum of low carb options and who don't push the idea that everyone should do under 20.Switching to a ratio perspective made it impossible to eat all my carbs in one meal, because I get new ones every time I eat. That way every meal has room for either a couple servings of low-carb veggies, or a smaller amount of fruit—sometimes both. And I try to eat them all, because otherwise that’s a missed opportunity.
Yes, I had vegetables at all meals, that's one of my personal rules. But I was still either going over my intended carb goal or having to have smaller/fewer servings than I am used to.
For me trying to hit a specific ratio per meal would have made it harder, as one thing I like is flexibility, but I tend to eat most of my non veg carbs at dinner anyway (except that I normally have a salad with nuts or seeds at lunch and would often have half an avocado with breakfast).BTW I don’t feel the magical, superpower keto high people describe, either. All it really is for me is a benchmark: as long as I test in keto I know I’m not deluding myself about how many carbs I’m really eating. And trying to stay in my keto ratio incentivizes me to be more accurate about things like cooking fats and nuts, because more of those things allows me to eat more carbs. So I’m less likely to “eyeball down” calorie-dense foods, because I WANT their calories. Better logging, more homemade meals, and enthusiasm about produce aren’t direct “side effects,” obviously, but they are benefits of keto for me.
Yeah, I totally see how it could be enjoyable for someone or helpful, I'm not anti keto at all. I just think it DOES require restriction of some foods that are quite healthful (contrary to the claim that it was just about restricting things you shouldn't eat anyway), and my own personal experience was that I had to basically eliminate fruit, which I love (I mostly eat it in season so I was good with keto in Feb-May and then quit) and did have to reduce/worry about vegetables more. But I certainly agree that it's possible to get a decent amount of veg, and more than the average American eats (which is deplorable, though) on keto. Just not as many as I personally prefer.2 -
maryjennifer wrote: »Love it! I lost 20 pounds. It also has tons of health benefits. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319196.php
In all fairness, that is a very poorly sourced article. Most of their benefits are based on single preliminary/investigative studies.7 -
OP asked for "Opinions on the keto diet?" I think it is very overrated. Another fad trend. I favor 70% of unprocessed carbs and a combination of 30% of proteins/fat. Whole food plant-based diet is the only one proven to reverse coronary conditions. With keto, you are doing the opposite.
https://eatplant-based.com/only-diet-proven-to-reverse-heart-disease-plant-based-nutrition/
Here are the 2 studies your referring to:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065
This is Esseltyn's study. An uncontrolled study that included cholesterol lowering drugs. Started with a whopping 22 subjects and finished with an astonishing 17. From 1995. Hasn't been replicated.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274
This is Ornish's study. Control group was only instructed to eat standard AHA diet. Intervention group was instructed to eat a 10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet and take part in an intensive lifestyle management program including aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, and group psychosocial support. A massive 48 subjects started the study and finished up with 30. Study was from 1998, never replicated.
These studies don't prove what you think they do.
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Keto is great. Keeps you eating pretty healthy. If you think about it, there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables (particularly leafy-greens), so it just makes it less to think about.15
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Running_and_Coffee wrote: »Keto makes the CICO at a deficit easier. For some people. (Like me.) Why is this controversial? There are thousands of diets out there.
BTW, I eat a ton of veggies!!!
Nothing controversial, it's just that keto community is where people spread the most bs out of all diets out there. I suggest you read some comments from keto users, some comments are just laughable because they spread false information and praise the diet for more than what it is. Look at the comments above me from the keto users, quotes like these "there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables " makes me roll my eyes.
I did IF on my cut and it's not like I go jump over joy (a-la Tom Cruise) over it, it's only a freaking tool, I know IF is not for everyone, IF is not the best diet or the worst diet, it's on par with any other diet out there, so why should I make a big stink of it like some people do with the keto diet?3 -
anthonynaylor wrote: »Keto is great. Keeps you eating pretty healthy. If you think about it, there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables (particularly leafy-greens), so it just makes it less to think about.
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.4 -
anthonynaylor wrote: »Keto is great. Keeps you eating pretty healthy. If you think about it, there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables (particularly leafy-greens), so it just makes it less to think about.
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
The people in the blue zones (who, btw, keto followers ignore) happen to agree6 -
anthonynaylor wrote: »Keto is great. Keeps you eating pretty healthy. If you think about it, there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables (particularly leafy-greens), so it just makes it less to think about.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.15 -
OP asked for "Opinions on the keto diet?" I think it is very overrated. Another fad trend. I favor 70% of unprocessed carbs and a combination of 30% of proteins/fat. Whole food plant-based diet is the only one proven to reverse coronary conditions. With keto, you are doing the opposite.
https://eatplant-based.com/only-diet-proven-to-reverse-heart-disease-plant-based-nutrition/
Here are the 2 studies your referring to:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065
This is Esseltyn's study. An uncontrolled study that included cholesterol lowering drugs. Started with a whopping 22 subjects and finished with an astonishing 17. From 1995. Hasn't been replicated.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274
This is Ornish's study. Control group was only instructed to eat standard AHA diet. Intervention group was instructed to eat a 10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet and take part in an intensive lifestyle management program including aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, and group psychosocial support. A massive 48 subjects started the study and finished up with 30. Study was from 1998, never replicated.
These studies don't prove what you think they do.
I am not specifically referring to any particular study - you did. So assume what you want. And you present it wrong anyway, as the results were there and you just chose to ignore them.
Bill Clinton is a good ambassador. After massive two coronary events, 2004 and 2010, he went mostly whole food plant-diet and he claims that it saved his life. Dr Greger 's grand mother has a similar experience at the Pritikin clinic.
https://www.drcarney.com/blog/entry/nathan-pritikin-shows-heart-disease-is-reversible
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anthonynaylor wrote: »Keto is great. Keeps you eating pretty healthy. If you think about it, there's not that many healthy carbs outside of vegetables (particularly leafy-greens), so it just makes it less to think about.
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.3 -
greenetaylor27 wrote: »I am a mother of two with a very busy schedule! I’ve been logging foods and exercising somewhat regularly for about 2-3 weeks and have lost about 3lbs. I’ve read a lot on how the keto diet can shred you down rather quickly, and “grains and carbs are poison” or what have you.
To me it just seems like a lot of work and also rather confusing. I’m fairly new to this new healthy lifestyle and didn’t know if anyone similar to my situation had bad luck— or thoughts and opinions ?? Thanks!
I've lost 21 lbs from Feb 20, 2018 to Mar 15, 2018. I did it by initially fasting (zero food, just water) for three days which put me into ketosis very quickly (I use test strips to verify). Six pounds were gone in the first week and I dropped an average of around 5-7 lbs/week in the following weeks. The reason I fasted was to hit keto quickly as it would normally take about three weeks of a really low carb diet to get there otherwise. I've maintained a strict diet of no more than 30 carbs daily and have fasted intermittently, ie 18 hours without eating, etc from time to time. My goal is to lose 25 MORE pounds after which I'll adopt a more normal diet- still watching my carbs. My blood pressure has gone down (to a normal range) since losing the weight and I feel great. I told my Dr. what I did to lose the weight so quickly and she was thrilled. She's been wanting me to lose weight for a while and she reminded me to keep up my protein intake, eat avocados (healthy fat), fiber, and of course water. I've somehow become accustomed to eating one meal (or no meals) daily which is no small feat for a guy who used to eat WAY too much. Anyway don't rule out keto for a quick weight loss, but understand that it's not really sustainable. You'll probably grow tired of it after a while.
How much muscle mass do you think you lost during that period of rapid weight loss? 21 lbs in 23 days is almost a lb per day. Some was water weight, some was fat, some was muscle mass.
A lot of that weight loss is water. And some fat loss. And some muscle loss.
Losing so much weight so fast is unsafe. And the consequences can be adverse and even life-long.2 -
Wow so many keto threads tonight I thought this was the low carb keto group instead of the main forums9
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sunfastrose wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »karintalley wrote: »I prefer the "eat all you want and lose weight diet". Like drinking wine, , eating chocolate and cheese and BREAD, and lose 1 pound a week...diet.
I'm glad that works for you. Last time I took a diet break and ate all I wanted, I gained 32 lbs. in 20 days. Of that 32 lbs., 19 was fat.
But she didn't say she ate all she wanted. She eats a variety of foods and is able to make her choices in such a way that she is in a caloric deficit.
Of that 32 pounds you regained, much is water.2 -
I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here. I have been in ketosis for over a year and I have lost 110 pounds. The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism. I was diabetic with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I now have perfect numbers with the exception of the scale but that number keeps going down.
The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
It takes some getting used to but after two weeks or so it gets much easier.
Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin. Insulin is produced when you consume carbs. If you continually have carbs available you will never be in a state where you can burn fat because you will continually have insulin present in your system.
Being low carb becomes easy in time. I regularly go out with friends and family and succeed in staying low carb without putting anyone out. Again, it's low carb. Not NO carb. The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
Tonight I went out with a friend and had Chinese. Stuck to dishes which were meat and veg and asked them to go easy on the starch. No fuss and no social awkwardness.
I am sure that some will take exception to some or all of this but hey it's working for me and many others.
Oh, and I am doing this under the supervision of a medical doctor and they are thrilled with my progress.
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I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here. I have been in ketosis for over a year and I have lost 110 pounds. The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism. I was diabetic with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I now have perfect numbers with the exception of the scale but that number keeps going down.
The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
It takes some getting used to but after two weeks or so it gets much easier.
Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin. Insulin is produced when you consume carbs. If you continually have carbs available you will never be in a state where you can burn fat because you will continually have insulin present in your system.
Being low carb becomes easy in time. I regularly go out with friends and family and succeed in staying low carb without putting anyone out. Again, it's low carb. Not NO carb. The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
Tonight I went out with a friend and had Chinese. Stuck to dishes which were meat and veg and asked them to go easy on the starch. No fuss and no social awkwardness.
I am sure that some will take exception to some or all of this but hey it's working for me and many others.
Oh, and I am doing this under the supervision of a medical doctor and they are thrilled with my progress.
Hate it break it to you but insulin inhibits lipolysis, not stops it. But even if you arent eating carbs, your body is still storing nutrients post food consumption. Its just basic physiology. Our body has multiple metabolic pathways to store nutrients and ironically, storing dietary fats are much easier with fats.
Its been demonstrated multiple times when you restict calories, you have greater periods of lipolysis than lipogenesis. And you have longer periods with low levels of insulin than you would have highs, unless you have a broken endocrine system.
Also, if you actually want to understand how fat is stored look into acylatiom stimulating protein, or glucose dependent insulintropic peptide. They both suspressiom hormone sensitive lipase which is the fat burning hormone.12 -
I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here. I have been in ketosis for over a year and I have lost 110 pounds. The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism. I was diabetic with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I now have perfect numbers with the exception of the scale but that number keeps going down.
The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
It takes some getting used to but after two weeks or so it gets much easier.
Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin. Insulin is produced when you consume carbs. If you continually have carbs available you will never be in a state where you can burn fat because you will continually have insulin present in your system.
Being low carb becomes easy in time. I regularly go out with friends and family and succeed in staying low carb without putting anyone out. Again, it's low carb. Not NO carb. The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
Tonight I went out with a friend and had Chinese. Stuck to dishes which were meat and veg and asked them to go easy on the starch. No fuss and no social awkwardness.
I am sure that some will take exception to some or all of this but hey it's working for me and many others.
Oh, and I am doing this under the supervision of a medical doctor and they are thrilled with my progress.
Oh my. So much woo in a first post!
It's quite clear that you haven't read the thread or you wouldn't be saying that there's little understanding of keto here. Maybe go back and read it, because the vast majority of your points were debunked upthread. The only one you're going to get support for is that it works for you and others. That doesn't make it work for everyone, or even everyone with diabetes or insulin resistance.6 -
OP asked for "Opinions on the keto diet?" I think it is very overrated. Another fad trend. I favor 70% of unprocessed carbs and a combination of 30% of proteins/fat. Whole food plant-based diet is the only one proven to reverse coronary conditions. With keto, you are doing the opposite.
https://eatplant-based.com/only-diet-proven-to-reverse-heart-disease-plant-based-nutrition/
Here are the 2 studies your referring to:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065
This is Esseltyn's study. An uncontrolled study that included cholesterol lowering drugs. Started with a whopping 22 subjects and finished with an astonishing 17. From 1995. Hasn't been replicated.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274
This is Ornish's study. Control group was only instructed to eat standard AHA diet. Intervention group was instructed to eat a 10% fat whole foods vegetarian diet and take part in an intensive lifestyle management program including aerobic exercise, stress management training, smoking cessation, and group psychosocial support. A massive 48 subjects started the study and finished up with 30. Study was from 1998, never replicated.
These studies don't prove what you think they do.
I am not specifically referring to any particular study - you did. So assume what you want.And you present it wrong anyway, as the results were there and you just chose to ignore them.
Both these studies are nearly 20 years old and haven't been replicated. Why do you think that is?Bill Clinton is a good ambassador. After massive two coronary events, 2004 and 2010, he went mostly whole food plant-diet and he claims that it saved his life.Dr Greger 's grand mother has a similar experience at the Pritikin clinic.
https://www.drcarney.com/blog/entry/nathan-pritikin-shows-heart-disease-is-reversible
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I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here. I have been in ketosis for over a year and I have lost 110 pounds. The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism. I was diabetic with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I now have perfect numbers with the exception of the scale but that number keeps going down.
The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
It takes some getting used to but after two weeks or so it gets much easier.
Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin. Insulin is produced when you consume carbs. If you continually have carbs available you will never be in a state where you can burn fat because you will continually have insulin present in your system.
Being low carb becomes easy in time. I regularly go out with friends and family and succeed in staying low carb without putting anyone out. Again, it's low carb. Not NO carb. The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
Tonight I went out with a friend and had Chinese. Stuck to dishes which were meat and veg and asked them to go easy on the starch. No fuss and no social awkwardness.
I am sure that some will take exception to some or all of this but hey it's working for me and many others.
Oh, and I am doing this under the supervision of a medical doctor and they are thrilled with my progress.
I crossed out all the misinformation. if you are in a deficit you are not going to be in fat storage mode,fat is lost IN A DEFICIT,how you get the deficit is up to you. CICO is how ALL diets/ways of eating work.as for your BMR getting lower and weight loss stopping.no if that were the case anorexics and people in 3rd world countries would not get deathly thin, while your bmr which is what your body burns being alive can lower some through adaptive thermogenesis,its not going to be slowed down a lot,many of us here who dont do keto and those of us who do higher carb diets still lose weight in a deficit. your body needs to produce insulin, for some it just may be too much or not enough.
The diet is also not the only diet for those with insulin resistance or diabetes. many here have other ways of eating that have these issues and dont need to do keto to help with their health issues. for many it was just the fact of losing weight that helped their issues.5 -
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.8 -
I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here....
Much of the remainder of your post (which I snipped for brevity) is exactly that kind of woo and demonstrates a total misunderstanding of physiology and a total buy-in on all the derp, propaganda, pseudoscience and half-truths peddled by the ketovangelists.14
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