Opinions on the keto diet??
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Have there been any studies that compare keto with low carb just above keto level? There always seems to be a lot of talk of keto vs. high carb (said in a way that seems to presume high starch/sugar, low fiber), but what about balanced diet?2
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concordancia wrote: »Have there been any studies that compare keto with low carb just above keto level? There always seems to be a lot of talk of keto vs. high carb (said in a way that seems to presume high starch/sugar, low fiber), but what about balanced diet?
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html/5 -
concordancia wrote: »Have there been any studies that compare keto with low carb just above keto level? There always seems to be a lot of talk of keto vs. high carb (said in a way that seems to presume high starch/sugar, low fiber), but what about balanced diet?
Best I can tell both keto/low carb and high carb WOE's can be a balanced diet. The macro percentages just are different.
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concordancia wrote: »Have there been any studies that compare keto with low carb just above keto level? There always seems to be a lot of talk of keto vs. high carb (said in a way that seems to presume high starch/sugar, low fiber), but what about balanced diet?
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html/
@AnvilHead , Thanks!2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I have not read this entire thread as it is quite long but from what I can see there is little understanding of the keto diet here. I have been in ketosis for over a year and I have lost 110 pounds. The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism. I was diabetic with high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I now have perfect numbers with the exception of the scale but that number keeps going down.
The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
It takes some getting used to but after two weeks or so it gets much easier.
Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin. Insulin is produced when you consume carbs. If you continually have carbs available you will never be in a state where you can burn fat because you will continually have insulin present in your system.
Being low carb becomes easy in time. I regularly go out with friends and family and succeed in staying low carb without putting anyone out. Again, it's low carb. Not NO carb. The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
Tonight I went out with a friend and had Chinese. Stuck to dishes which were meat and veg and asked them to go easy on the starch. No fuss and no social awkwardness.
I am sure that some will take exception to some or all of this but hey it's working for me and many others.
Oh, and I am doing this under the supervision of a medical doctor and they are thrilled with my progress.
I crossed out all the misinformation. if you are in a deficit you are not going to be in fat storage mode,fat is lost IN A DEFICIT,how you get the deficit is up to you. CICO is how ALL diets/ways of eating work.as for your BMR getting lower and weight loss stopping.no if that were the case anorexics and people in 3rd world countries would not get deathly thin, while your bmr which is what your body burns being alive can lower some through adaptive thermogenesis,its not going to be slowed down a lot,many of us here who dont do keto and those of us who do higher carb diets still lose weight in a deficit. your body needs to produce insulin, for some it just may be too much or not enough.
The diet is also not the only diet for those with insulin resistance or diabetes. many here have other ways of eating that have these issues and dont need to do keto to help with their health issues. for many it was just the fact of losing weight that helped their issues.
It's like some people think your body burns fat for fun and can just turn it off and on willy nilly.10 -
Oh my. So much woo in a first post!
It's quite clear that you haven't read the thread or you wouldn't be saying that there's little understanding of keto here. Maybe go back and read it, because the vast majority of your points were debunked upthread. The only one you're going to get support for is that it works for you and others. That doesn't make it work for everyone, or even everyone with diabetes or insulin resistance.
I have gone back and read more and see little debunking. I see lots of comments from people who want to eat carbs and will try and find ways to convince others that they are healthy to justify eating them themselves.
I have yet to see a study showing type 2 diabetes being cured by a high carb diet. I am now cured of my diabetes and no one will convince me that consuming the same amount of calories largely from carbs would have done the same.
Is a calorie deficit necessary to lose weight? Obviously. I never meant to say it wasn't. My intention was that there is more to it than that.
My father continues to take more and more drugs to manage his diabetes and he has been maintaining his basically healthy weight for years. But he insists on bread and potatoes with every meal. And he follows the guidelines set by the diabetes association. Imagine that.
I will now leave the discussing to others as I have already got a major distaste for this forum.
The term woo gets thrown around a lot here but it seems those who use it are just as single minded as those they accuse. For every study or claim made there will always be some opposing study and claim. Someone above refers to intermittent fasting as a diet. Well its not a diet. Yet they are here supposedly debunking keto. What makes them an expert? Hell these days it seems everyone is an expert.
Good luck and good health to all of you.24 -
I have gone back and read more and see little debunking. I see lots of comments from people who want to eat carbs and will try and find ways to convince others that they are healthy to justify eating them themselves.
I have yet to see a study showing type 2 diabetes being cured by a high carb diet. I am now cured of my diabetes and no one will convince me that consuming the same amount of calories largely from carbs would have done the same.
Is a calorie deficit necessary to lose weight? Obviously. I never meant to say it wasn't. My intention was that there is more to it than that.
My father continues to take more and more drugs to manage his diabetes and he has been maintaining his basically healthy weight for years. But he insists on bread and potatoes with every meal. And he follows the guidelines set by the diabetes association. Imagine that.
I will now leave the discussing to others as I have already got a major distaste for this forum.
The term woo gets thrown around a lot here but it seems those who use it are just as single minded as those they accuse. For every study or claim made there will always be some opposing study and claim. Someone above refers to intermittent fasting as a diet. Well its not a diet. Yet they are here supposedly debunking keto. What makes them an expert? Hell these days it seems everyone is an expert.
Good luck and good health to all of you.
If you cured diabetes, go get your nobel price because diabetes is incurable. At best you have it under control.14 -
I do low carb because it works best for me. I still watch calories, but find this way of eating keeps me full longer. For some reason, I do lose more on low carb. But because the choices are limited, I get bored easily. I have to really plan meals and change it up as much as possible. The bottom line is still CICO. You have to do what works best for you.3
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What did I present wrong, genius?
Ok with this kind of approach, we are done.6 -
The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism.
Not true, many people go into remission with T2D or IR simply by losing weight, eating a healthful diet, and moderating how they consume carbs. While an extreme low carb approach will deal with the symptoms of IR, and if you also successfully lose you may also go into remission, simply low carbing addresses the symptoms, not the actual issue -- unlike the people who go into remission, someone just controlling the symptoms will have a blood sugar spike and insulin issues again if they eat, say, a potato or some bread.The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
IR is not like being allergic to sugar.
Also, keto is not promoted only to those who are IR; am I the only one bored with the discussion of IR taking over every single conversation?Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
CICO is not a diet, it's how weight loss works. In particular, it is how keto causes weight loss when it does.
Yes, as maintenance goes down, if you don't increase your calories weight loss will stop. Some choose their maintenance at eventual goal weight as their weight loss goal as a result. My weight loss goal (around 1500-1600) was less than my maintenance TDEE, and I expect that's common too.
Calorie restriction done right doesn't lower your BMR significantly, but weight loss does.The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin.
The idea that you have to do keto to lose weight is obviously false, and really does not stand up to the red face test. OBVIOUSLY people not doing keto lose weight (and insulin resistance itself makes it hard to turn carbs into fat, btw).
Eating carbs doesn't mean you can't burn fat. There will be periods of time near meals when you will burn less fat, but over the course of a day, if the deficit is the same, the body fat burned will be about the same. No studies suggest a superiority of keto for burning body fat (i.e., metabolism).The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
I'll just note this for the other conversation where I was pointing out that many push versions of keto that certainly would lead to reducing veg and basically eliminating fruit and beans and such.
I'll also note that no one says it can't be a good option for people who find it an easier way to lose weight, but the idea that it should be promoted with false information or is for all or is healthier than other ways to lose are problems that should be disputed with the correct facts.
I'm sorry these threads tend to include so much of this stuff, as many people doing keto understand the facts and simply find it an easier way to lose and don't try to preach to everyone rest or claim it's the one true way to lose.
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anthonynaylor wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.
No, as discussed in my other conversation, not on the usual keto recommendations (IMO you can't even eat adequate veg at 20 net carbs without reducing variety and stressing about it), and at around 35 net carbs I could only eat veg, a serving of dairy, and some nuts or seeds, no fruit, and certainly no potatoes or beans. When I was doing around 100-120 carbs I was able to fit in all those things easily, but that's not keto.
I also think the idea that fruit and oats or the like are to be avoided is silly.13 -
Keto has been around for close to 80 years but has been embraced as the latest "new" diet fad.
Any diet works if you reduce calories below maintenance.2 -
Well I am a walking example where T2 diabetes went in to remission from significant weight loss, while eating regular servings of carbs. I hit my daily minimum for protein but the rest of my diet includes oatmeal, breads, and legumes of many kinds.15
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anthonynaylor wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.
So you think folks who live in the Blue Zones, who for generations have eaten moderate to high carb diets full of fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, beans, and wine and live active lives into their 100s, would be healthier if they cut out the fruits and grains and ate more fatty meat and cheese?11 -
anthonynaylor wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.
So you think folks who live in the Blue Zones, who for generations have eaten moderate to high carb diets full of fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, beans, and wine and live active lives into their 100s, would be healthier if they cut out the fruits and grains and ate more fatty meat and cheese?
This^ The longest living and healthiest cultures eat high carb low fat. There are no cultures in chronic ketosis. In fact, evolution protects against it. Ketosis is a metabolic wasteland8 -
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lemurcat12 wrote: »The diet really is the only solution for individuals with insulin resistance to successfully lose weight and regain a healthy metabolism.
Not true, many people go into remission with T2D or IR simply by losing weight, eating a healthful diet, and moderating how they consume carbs. While an extreme low carb approach will deal with the symptoms of IR, and if you also successfully lose you may also go into remission, simply low carbing addresses the symptoms, not the actual issue -- unlike the people who go into remission, someone just controlling the symptoms will have a blood sugar spike and insulin issues again if they eat, say, a potato or some bread.The only way to be successful with keto is to focus on the food you can eat and understand that many of us are basically allergic to sugar. If you were allergic to peanuts you would avoid them wouldn't you?
IR is not like being allergic to sugar.
Also, keto is not promoted only to those who are IR; am I the only one bored with the discussion of IR taking over every single conversation?Is it the diet for everyone? Probably not but calories in calories out is not either. Calorie restriction will eventually lower your BMR and weight loss will stop.
CICO is not a diet, it's how weight loss works. In particular, it is how keto causes weight loss when it does.
Yes, as maintenance goes down, if you don't increase your calories weight loss will stop. Some choose their maintenance at eventual goal weight as their weight loss goal as a result. My weight loss goal (around 1500-1600) was less than my maintenance TDEE, and I expect that's common too.
Calorie restriction done right doesn't lower your BMR significantly, but weight loss does.The fundamental truth behind keto is that your body cannot burn fat when it is in fat storage mode which is what happens in the presence of insulin.
The idea that you have to do keto to lose weight is obviously false, and really does not stand up to the red face test. OBVIOUSLY people not doing keto lose weight (and insulin resistance itself makes it hard to turn carbs into fat, btw).
Eating carbs doesn't mean you can't burn fat. There will be periods of time near meals when you will burn less fat, but over the course of a day, if the deficit is the same, the body fat burned will be about the same. No studies suggest a superiority of keto for burning body fat (i.e., metabolism).The first month or so you should be under 20 net carbs to get yourself firmly into ketosis but after that you can have days when you have 50 net carbs without kicking yourself out of ketosis. Just don't do it day after day.
I'll just note this for the other conversation where I was pointing out that many push versions of keto that certainly would lead to reducing veg and basically eliminating fruit and beans and such.
I'll also note that no one says it can't be a good option for people who find it an easier way to lose weight, but the idea that it should be promoted with false information or is for all or is healthier than other ways to lose are problems that should be disputed with the correct facts.
I may have been insulin resistant and may have been prediabetic but didn't want to find out. All I knew was that left to my own discernment, my diet mostly consisted of bags of Hershey Miniatures, Smores PopTarts or enormous bowls of Honey Bunches of Oats cereal (the size would boggle your mind), Doritos, and booze, with a couple actual meals spattered in that were carb heavy.
Keto cut out foods I way overate every single day. It helped me learn portions, and about macronutrients and micronutrients. It helped me divorce myself from my dysfunctional relationship with foods in general. I learned to enjoy veggies. Now that I am no longer keto, I eat 3 servings of veggies just at supper because I like it. I still don't eat fruit. I never cared for it overmuch. I eat more on the weekends (calorie budgeting) so that I can enjoy starches and some dessert on those days within reason.
So for me, it was fantastic. But not everyone has the particular issues I had. After month 3, despite everyone around me yelling "Calories don't matter" and "It's the insulin, dummy," I stalled out. So I came here and started counting. I continued on to lose the rest of my weight doing both keto and calorie counting. Which is the way everything works at it's base.I'm sorry these threads tend to include so much of this stuff, as many people doing keto understand the facts and simply find it an easier way to lose and don't try to preach to everyone rest or claim it's the one true way to lose.
That's the way it goes, though, doesn't it? We are having a good conversation giving good information. But then comes someone with woo and the unicorn wands. Then the others come. That's why I've stayed away and don't post in the Main Forums much. It's frustrating for the keto folk who really are educated because this always happens. There really ARE keto people who get it. But there are so many people, plus new ones all the time now who listen to the umpteem million misinformative podcasts and blog-gurus.
Keto is great, for those whose personalities and needs it fits. But biochemistry and scientific literature, IME and admittedly I'm not the biggest science genius there ever was, all the claims made on the daily just aren't borne out by science.
Sorry to clutter your thoughts with this but I think it needs to be reposted. Again. For others reading. How LC Diets Work from the Ketoer-in-Know POV.
Of course, where it says "Simpler to Understand and Follow" (other than the issue that I think they should have used "More simple"
) I think we all agree that's subjective but from a keto/LCHF POV, some people do find it so.
Simple and easy are 2 completely different things, right?
What aggravates the heck out of me is calorie counting. I've done it for over 3 years now so that's not the thing about it. All my fave foods are mostly in there. Last night...my app decided to forget all my recipes on the site, so I had to reenter one I use at least once a week...again... on the fly while I was trying to cook the thing. So DH started making fun of me. All the inputing and then my silent curses because I had to change all the things because it used crazy entries...MFP Problems.
It was so much more simple to just count carbs. But it also didn't work. That's why I'm here. 
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russelljam08 wrote: »anthonynaylor wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.
So you think folks who live in the Blue Zones, who for generations have eaten moderate to high carb diets full of fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, beans, and wine and live active lives into their 100s, would be healthier if they cut out the fruits and grains and ate more fatty meat and cheese?
This^ The longest living and healthiest cultures eat high carb low fat. There are no cultures in chronic ketosis. In fact, evolution protects against it. Ketosis is a metabolic wasteland
While the statement about ketosis is medically false they do eat carbs and lower levels of fats often.
What they do not live on is a SAD WOE high in highly processed sugars and grains.
That is why the sources of our calories are mission critical when it comes to our health.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »anthonynaylor wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yeah, it's debatable, but I think the benefits of fruits and whole grains are trumped out by just eating veggies. And if you have a problem with unhealthy carbs, then it just cancels that option out and makes it simple. But if you have a sweet tooth then fruits are a good alternative and are relatively keto-friendly.
Honestly, that is just nonsense. Maybe you should think about it.
Welcome to another keto threadlemurcat12 wrote: »
Matter of opinion, I guess. I've seen plenty of real world evidence to suggest fruit and whole grains are pretty good for you too.
Yep. Beans and lentils too.
I'd even suggest that potatoes and sweet potatoes are pretty healthy. (Gasp!)
You can eat a really unhealthy diet on keto too. And obviously you can eat a pretty healthy diet, just as with almost any way of eating.
Beans, lentils and potatoes are healthy yes and also can be keto-friendly given your carb-restriction.
So you think folks who live in the Blue Zones, who for generations have eaten moderate to high carb diets full of fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, beans, and wine and live active lives into their 100s, would be healthier if they cut out the fruits and grains and ate more fatty meat and cheese?
This^ The longest living and healthiest cultures eat high carb low fat. There are no cultures in chronic ketosis. In fact, evolution protects against it. Ketosis is a metabolic wasteland
While the statement about ketosis is medically false they do eat carbs and lower levels of fats often.
What they do not live on is a SAD WOE high in highly processed sugars and grains.
That is why the sources of our calories are mission critical when it comes to our health.
Ketosis is a byproduct of starvation along with all the negative hormonal effects.
The SAD WOE is high in saturated fat. Traditional cultures that start eating more like SAD(high saturated fat) they start to get diabetic. Asians are the perfect example. All these cultures have ALWAYS eaten grain, so you can take that BS to the rest home. Stay in your scope2
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