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Why do people deny CICO ?
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WinoGelato wrote: »Hermesonly wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »How can you post this^^ and still support your previous statement?
Because, as I previously posted, the significant flaw in that thinking is that physics is not physiology. Thermodynamics has minimal relevance to human biology. The human body is not, in fact, a closed or isolated system. The body can use input calories for any of a number of possible outputs--heat production, bone building, muscle production, cognition, detoxification, breathing, excretion, fat production...and the list goes on. To believe the thermodynamic model, you'd have to assume that fat gain or loss is controlled by eating and essentially otherwise unregulated by the body. This makes no sense, and it is what has prompted all of the current research. There is absolutely no body system that is unregulated, not one. The sympathetic, parasympathetic, respiratory, circulatory, renal, adrenal, gastrointestinal etc. systems are all under absolutely precise hormonal control. So why then would the body also not have multiple hormonal systems that precisely control body weight? Of course it does, and we know that now. We know more now about the effects cortisol, insulin, leptin and ghrelin. We know more now about insulin resistance and its effect on weight gain over time. We know about homeostasis and how it makes the long-term maintenance of weight loss achieved through simple calorie cutting almost impossible.
In the Ancel Keys Minnesota study, calories had to be continuously reduced to achieve a target total weight loss of 24 percent. Some of the men ended up getting less than 1,000 calories a day. Apparently even Dr. Keys was surprised at the difficulty of the experiment. Among the problems were that the resting metabolic rate of the subjects dropped by 40 percent. Their heart rate slowed, heart stroke volume decreased, body temperature dropped, they became tired and they lost their hair. Before the study, the men ate an average of 3,000 calories a day. When calories decreased to cause weight loss, their bodies responded by reducing energy expenditure accordingly. The body has to do this. It's smart and it wants us to live. This is one reason why maintaining weight loss through simple calorie cutting is so difficult.
Ok, I'll bite. So if CICO is flawed, what specifically do you recommend overweight/obese individuals do in order to achieve their weight loss goals? You keep talking about how much more complex things are and how for some people it's just harder than others, so what do these people who think they've tried CICO (again, not that it is something to "try" but I'm going along with your argument to see what you recommend) and failed time and again need to do in order to be successful?
From listening to some of these CICO deniers talk, one would think that weight loss isn't even a possible thing. Just can't be done.
Now I need to figure out how I’ve intentionally (and predictably) lost weight by eating at what I calculated to be a certain calorie deficit by a combination of reducing consumption and increasing overall activity (but mostly the former) and intentionally (and predictably) gained weight by eating at what I calculated to be a certain calorie surplus by a combination of increasing consumption and reducing overall activity (but mostly the former). Maybe I got lucky and modified my hormones/chakra/chi/something just right each time to arrive accidentally at the intended (and expected) outcome? And have many times in the past 7+ years to arrive consistently at my weight goals.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Whatever it is I assume height is being used with some sort of population average to make assumptions about muscle content. Sort of like Height to weight gives you BMI which makes assumptions about your percent bodyfat based on population averages. I think people understand that, the question for me is more esoteric...does height itself matter at all for CO or is it just a corollary for something else like muscle content?
(P.S. Following is not debate/criticism of your comment - intended as casual follow-on conversation.)
I'd been wondering if this sub-conversation was taking into account the statistical nature of the standard CO estimates. I see that you, at least, were.
I haven't dug into the statistical underpinnings of the calorie estimation formulas at any level of detail (soooo boring! ) but have idly wondered to what extent "average" but suboptimal behavior skews the outcomes for people who are not as average.
That improbable 5'3" jacked 200-pound guy would get poor estimates from calculators, of course, and the reason would involve somehow the undeniable fact that most 5'3" 200-pound men are seriously fat so they drive the stats behind the formula.
My understanding is that the formula is skewed toward people with healthy body fat percentages, so it likely tends to overestimate calorie burn for people with obese levels of body fat. This is why when I started I estimated my body fat and then took a big range on either side and looked at the likely BMR/TDEE under the BF% model (Katch-McArdle) and compared it to MFP's numbers. It's also why I don't get too hung up on the fact that someone obese gets a TDEE of, say, 2200 on a calculator when only 5'3, chances are that person's real TDEE is lower.
Obviously, some people have higher than predicted TDEEs too, even taking body fat into account. This (again! and I know you agree) is why calculators are only a starting point, adjusting is needed, however you cut calories, if results aren't as planned, and having a lower or higher TDEE than a calculator says you should has zero to do with the merits of CICO.
Of course.
What I'm saying, I think, is that it would be interesting to have a better understanding of other things that skew the formula with respect to other differences in the underlying population, the limitations of the model - what the likely sources of variation are, where they enter the model (partly a function of the structure of the model), etc.
Just, y'know, not quite interesting enough to actually invest the effort in figuring it out.
I took my Nth college statistics class during summer semester. It was about something that amounted to estimating the error in the estimated error of the estimates of the characteristics of the population based on the data from the sample - statistics about statistics about statistics about samples of populations. It was summer. The sun was shining. It was lovely outside, as I could see through the big windows in my statistics class. I was maybe 20 years old. I dropped the class.
Apologies for the digression.
Yeah, that would be interesting.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Now I'm just wondering how I lost 40 Lbs and have managed to keep it off (except for winter weight) for 5 years. I'm also wondering how the hell I've lost 4 of my 10 Lbs of winter weight in the last month.
I see that you and I are now worried about the same thing.6 -
abbynormal52 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I agree it has to do with CICO, but for me, it's also about which nutrients my bod needs, so I work my macros in. You like the way you eat, it works for you. I totally "grasp" what you do, it's just not for me.
Why do you presume these things (CICO and achieving adequate nutrition) are mutually exclusive?
And what specifically is “not for you”? CICO?
Because simply CICO is not enough for me. I need to know what those calories are, what types of calories I need to achieve my goals. I don't deny it is about CICO, never have. I just take it a lot further.
Almost everyone does something other than just count calories, if that's what you mean by CICO. (Obviously, however, CICO does not mean "counting calories.")
This discussion is not actually about whether it's useful to do something other than just counting calories, as I really can't imagine someone not doing ANYTHING else, not caring about how they feel or hunger or whatever. I'm not even sure how JUST doing calorie counting would work in practice? You get up, start eating based on whim, log while doing it, and then stop eating when you hit goal? I can't imagine someone approaching it that way for more than a couple of days, and I wouldn't have tried that for even one, not how my mind works. That's why I find this assumption that if you think about something other than merely # of calories that CICO is not enough for you to be kind of puzzling.
Calories in Calories Out, do I have that right? I hadn't even heard of it as CICO until today. But I think that is what it means. I'd like to see where anyone ever "denied" that it is about calories in calories out first of all. And then, I would just add, if whoever posted "why do people deny" CICO would have had a pretty boring thread if everyone just said "I don't deny it", "I don't deny it".
Oh, and I never mentioned "counting" calories I don't think?? I mentioned nutrition, and types of calories and macros.
You seemed to think there was something you were referring to as "simply CICO" which was "not enough" for you, which is why I thought (and still think) you were referring to calorie counting.
Many people deny calories are what matter for weight loss. Just a few posts ago someone suggested that doing keto meant someone could eat way over their assumed maintenance level (or I think that was the point) and lose weight. Similarly, there are endless posts about "if I'm within my calories but eat a pizza or a donut, will I lose?" In those threads, there often are people who insist that in fact they CANNOT lose, even at a level they normally lose at (like 1200) if they eat ANY [insert food here]. So yeah, denying CICO is common.
There are also endless diet gurus claiming that calories don't matter. Most (not all) of them actually admit they do, but still say not to think about them, follow their program, but some actually insist that calories do not matter for weight loss (Taubes is trying to disprove that they do, I think, although he's struck out badly so far).
As for nutrition and health, obviously those are important, no one has said otherwise. Again, this idea that some focus only on calories and absolutely nothing else (not satiety, not how to make not going over calories easier) is kind of a strawman, don't you think? But what determines weight loss (or gain or maintenance) is calorie balance.
CICO is a shorthand for saying "calorie balance is what determines whether you gain, lose, or maintain."3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Eating processed foods, carbs and sugar really do make me feel like garbage. I don't think I am alone in this. It is WAY easier to eat vegetables, eggs, lean meat and water only if you are going for a steep cut (2lbs+ per week). With a clean diet I can go to bed full on 1700 calories easy (1200 cal deficit). I can't imagine getting through a day after having a 400+ calorie sugary snack. I would wake up the next day with a sugar hangover unable to move. Whatever keeps you sane though.
Calories in-- calories out means everything though. I maintain and gain weight on the same foods, just more volume (and a lot of added butter!)
Vegetables have carbohydrates.
Also, fruit is one of the foods highest in carbs by percentage, and yet few people claim to feel like garbage because they eat fruit. So yeah, I do think that's kind of unusual, although there are others who claim carbs in general make them feel bad.
Of course, most of the healthiest human diets (the blue zones) are reasonably high carb.
and high in fiber.
What does this have to do with you claiming that carbohydrates make you feel like garbage?
The main difference between eating bread and broccoli is the fiber. It is a lot about glucose spikes. It has also been shown that diets absent of fiber create breeding grounds for an unhealthy micro-biome. A lot of it comes down to inflammation.
Surely someone suggests in the yet unread 28 pages having a spoon of metamucil with their delicious bread to comply with his dietary rules, right? Surely. Otherwise, MFP, you're dead to me.
I love this, it's like you're playing the Top 10 hits for us. I'm over here going, oh yeah! I remember that one! Those were the days, when this thread was young and wild
I was going to say, “this is classic JOf but then I see that Jof already copped to it.
#jofception8 -
Done.
#goldstarforme10 -
abbynormal52 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I agree it has to do with CICO, but for me, it's also about which nutrients my bod needs, so I work my macros in. You like the way you eat, it works for you. I totally "grasp" what you do, it's just not for me.
Why do you presume these things (CICO and achieving adequate nutrition) are mutually exclusive?
And what specifically is “not for you”? CICO?
Because simply CICO is not enough for me. I need to know what those calories are, what types of calories I need to achieve my goals. I don't deny it is about CICO, never have. I just take it a lot further.
Almost everyone does something other than just count calories, if that's what you mean by CICO. (Obviously, however, CICO does not mean "counting calories.")
This discussion is not actually about whether it's useful to do something other than just counting calories, as I really can't imagine someone not doing ANYTHING else, not caring about how they feel or hunger or whatever. I'm not even sure how JUST doing calorie counting would work in practice? You get up, start eating based on whim, log while doing it, and then stop eating when you hit goal? I can't imagine someone approaching it that way for more than a couple of days, and I wouldn't have tried that for even one, not how my mind works. That's why I find this assumption that if you think about something other than merely # of calories that CICO is not enough for you to be kind of puzzling.
Calories in Calories Out, do I have that right? I hadn't even heard of it as CICO until today. But I think that is what it means. I'd like to see where anyone ever "denied" that it is about calories in calories out first of all. And then, I would just add, if whoever posted "why do people deny" CICO would have had a pretty boring thread if everyone just said "I don't deny it", "I don't deny it".
Oh, and I never mentioned "counting" calories I don't think?? I mentioned nutrition, and types of calories and macros.
What is the OP about? Go ahead and explain it to me?
Sounds like you agree calories are what matter for weight loss. That’s great! I’m curious why you continue to bring up nutrition as if you are the only person who is concerned about that? You said “CICO isn’t enough for me” as if no one else is looking beyond energy at things like satiety and nutrients. Again, do you think CICO and focusing on obtaining adequate nutrition are mutually exclusive?9 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »Done.
#goldstarforme
So why do you think people deny CICO then?8 -
yesterday, my best friend was again talking about when she lost weight (3 times, gained it all back) & how last time she stopped eating bread, ice cream & a few other things. She said it's the way to go. I told her it's because she ate less calories not because she stopped eating those things. She ought to know by now, I've been doing this for 2 yrs already. I told her I eat bread almost every day6
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WinoGelato wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Done.
#goldstarforme
So why do you think people deny CICO then?
Yes. #conclusions6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Done.
#goldstarforme
So why do you think people deny CICO then?
I believe this is addressed in Matthew 26:34.10 -
If we understand that without fat, we die, then wouldn't the people who claim sugar has magical fat accumulating properties be admitting that sugar is the superior energy source? Not all countries have readily available food, after all. Maybe that will make people realize how ridiculous it is to claim that sugar can subvert the laws of physics.8
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jofjltncb6 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Done.
#goldstarforme
So why do you think people deny CICO then?
I believe this is addressed in Matthew 26:34.
Does that cover TinyLegForever Syndrome, too?6 -
Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the SAD, I fear no sugar. My green tea and my ketones, they comfort me. Thou hast anointed my head with hormones, my cup of ACV runneth over. Surely clean food and intuitive eating shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of Dr Oz forever.
Sadly, I think this is in fact on topic.29 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »Done.
#goldstarforme
So why do you think people deny CICO then?
I believe this is addressed in Matthew 26:34.
Does that cover TinyLegForever Syndrome, too?
I’ve never denied those even once...certainly not three times...so no.
(That said, look for an updated leg progress pic from me later this year.9 -
WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I agree it has to do with CICO, but for me, it's also about which nutrients my bod needs, so I work my macros in. You like the way you eat, it works for you. I totally "grasp" what you do, it's just not for me.
Why do you presume these things (CICO and achieving adequate nutrition) are mutually exclusive?
And what specifically is “not for you”? CICO?
Because simply CICO is not enough for me. I need to know what those calories are, what types of calories I need to achieve my goals. I don't deny it is about CICO, never have. I just take it a lot further.
Almost everyone does something other than just count calories, if that's what you mean by CICO. (Obviously, however, CICO does not mean "counting calories.")
This discussion is not actually about whether it's useful to do something other than just counting calories, as I really can't imagine someone not doing ANYTHING else, not caring about how they feel or hunger or whatever. I'm not even sure how JUST doing calorie counting would work in practice? You get up, start eating based on whim, log while doing it, and then stop eating when you hit goal? I can't imagine someone approaching it that way for more than a couple of days, and I wouldn't have tried that for even one, not how my mind works. That's why I find this assumption that if you think about something other than merely # of calories that CICO is not enough for you to be kind of puzzling.
Calories in Calories Out, do I have that right? I hadn't even heard of it as CICO until today. But I think that is what it means. I'd like to see where anyone ever "denied" that it is about calories in calories out first of all. And then, I would just add, if whoever posted "why do people deny" CICO would have had a pretty boring thread if everyone just said "I don't deny it", "I don't deny it".
Oh, and I never mentioned "counting" calories I don't think?? I mentioned nutrition, and types of calories and macros.
What is the OP about? Go ahead and explain it to me?
Sounds like you agree calories are what matter for weight loss. That’s great! I’m curious why you continue to bring up nutrition as if you are the only person who is concerned about that? You said “CICO isn’t enough for me” as if no one else is looking beyond energy at things like satiety and nutrients. Again, do you think CICO and focusing on obtaining adequate nutrition are mutually exclusive?
I would say, based on what I've read in various threads over the past few years, that virtually every long-term poster considers *something* in their food choices other than just calories. Exactly what is focused on varies from person to person, but I think everyone is focusing on something. Nobody is just daily eating whatever pops into their head at a given moment and then stopping for the day when their calorie goal is reached.
(Because the world is big and contains all kinds of people, I'm prepared for someone to come in and say this is exactly how they eat, but I'm still thinking that type of eating pattern would be an exception for someone who is maintaining long-term or focusing on achieving specific fitness goals).
CICO isn't "enough" for anybody because CICO isn't, and was never meant to be, a complete diet plan or description of how someone eats.13 -
Wow you guys and girls are on fire!! I have read almost all the thread, not all, cos good grief, it's so long, but... I don't understand why can't we all count calories and also eat nutritious food? calories, macros, micros, we can have it all. I don't see the issue with that6
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Katzedernacht wrote: »Wow you guys and girls are on fire!! I have read almost all the thread, not all, cos good grief, it's so long, but... I don't understand why can't we all count calories and also eat nutritious food? calories, macros, micros, we can have it all. I don't see the issue with that
There isn't any issue with that. What you're seeing in this thread is a bunch of strawman arguments involving eating nothing but oreos on a "CICO diet" because you can eat anything you want. Nobody has or will advocate such nonsense. Nobody that I ever heard of eats that way.
Edited for spelling6 -
Katzedernacht wrote: »Wow you guys and girls are on fire!! I have read almost all the thread, not all, cos good grief, it's so long, but... I don't understand why can't we all count calories and also eat nutritious food? calories, macros, micros, we can have it all. I don't see the issue with that
The only people who say you can't are those who create false dichotomies suggesting that focusing on calories means you can't focus on nutrition.
I pointed out a while back (as did many others) that focusing on calories doesn't mean you can't (or shouldn't) also focus on nutrition, what makes you feel satisfied/not hungry, so on, also. I find it so weird that some people seem to think that one must choose between the two. I'll note that I've NEVER seen anyone who says CICO is what matters for weight loss saying you need to choose, but only those who claim CICO is "overrated" or the like who seem to think you must pick one or the other. Silly!5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »abbynormal52 wrote: »So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I agree it has to do with CICO, but for me, it's also about which nutrients my bod needs, so I work my macros in. You like the way you eat, it works for you. I totally "grasp" what you do, it's just not for me.
Why do you presume these things (CICO and achieving adequate nutrition) are mutually exclusive?
And what specifically is “not for you”? CICO?
Because simply CICO is not enough for me. I need to know what those calories are, what types of calories I need to achieve my goals. I don't deny it is about CICO, never have. I just take it a lot further.
Almost everyone does something other than just count calories, if that's what you mean by CICO. (Obviously, however, CICO does not mean "counting calories.")
This discussion is not actually about whether it's useful to do something other than just counting calories, as I really can't imagine someone not doing ANYTHING else, not caring about how they feel or hunger or whatever. I'm not even sure how JUST doing calorie counting would work in practice? You get up, start eating based on whim, log while doing it, and then stop eating when you hit goal? I can't imagine someone approaching it that way for more than a couple of days, and I wouldn't have tried that for even one, not how my mind works. That's why I find this assumption that if you think about something other than merely # of calories that CICO is not enough for you to be kind of puzzling.
Calories in Calories Out, do I have that right? I hadn't even heard of it as CICO until today. But I think that is what it means. I'd like to see where anyone ever "denied" that it is about calories in calories out first of all. And then, I would just add, if whoever posted "why do people deny" CICO would have had a pretty boring thread if everyone just said "I don't deny it", "I don't deny it".
Oh, and I never mentioned "counting" calories I don't think?? I mentioned nutrition, and types of calories and macros.
What is the OP about? Go ahead and explain it to me?
Sounds like you agree calories are what matter for weight loss. That’s great! I’m curious why you continue to bring up nutrition as if you are the only person who is concerned about that? You said “CICO isn’t enough for me” as if no one else is looking beyond energy at things like satiety and nutrients. Again, do you think CICO and focusing on obtaining adequate nutrition are mutually exclusive?
I would say, based on what I've read in various threads over the past few years, that virtually every long-term poster considers *something* in their food choices other than just calories. Exactly what is focused on varies from person to person, but I think everyone is focusing on something. Nobody is just daily eating whatever pops into their head at a given moment and then stopping for the day when their calorie goal is reached.
(Because the world is big and contains all kinds of people, I'm prepared for someone to come in and say this is exactly how they eat, but I'm still thinking that type of eating pattern would be an exception for someone who is maintaining long-term or focusing on achieving specific fitness goals).
CICO isn't "enough" for anybody because CICO isn't, and was never meant to be, a complete diet plan or description of how someone eats.
This is a great way to frame things. CICO is a good first step, but once you master that, move along to IIFYM. IIFYM is great, but the next step is focusing on increasing the quality of your food. There is so much to nutrition that it is useful to keep looking at the next way that you can refine and improve upon your program.10
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