Do we go nowhere ?
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Ever notice how when something terrific happens (polio vaccine, drugs that prevent HIV from turning into AIDS, magnificent musical symphonies, architecture that defies the boundaries of human imagination, fictional works of literary genius that are works of intricate beauty, simple kindnesses extended on a whim that make the difference between life and death) and when these wonderful things happen PEOPLE take or give credit to THEMSELVES exclusively.
When bad things happen (people die, people get sick, people get mistreated, people suffer in an endless and horrible variety of ways) it's always GOD that did it or who let it happen because He just doesn't care about us?
Yeah, what does that say about US and our maturity as people?
If you want to know about God (and I know most of you don't and that's okay) - but for those of you who question His existence and what He can do, then take the time to PRAY to God and really PRAY from the heart. Then you'll have an idea of what you're working with and what God can do.
Is that the way it works though? It's not like God leaves a note on your nightstand saying, "Dear Joe, Last night you asked me to watch over your family and loved ones, so today your mother is going to just miss being in a car accident. Instead of breaking her arm, the driver who runs a red light will simply pass through the intersection without causing an accident. Have a nice day."
And what about if/when you pray for things that are outside of or against His plan? What then?
Really it comes down to this -
If you have faith, you will see God's hand in various things every day. If you don't, you'll see those same things as chance, or making your own luck, or whatever else. It's not terribly different than a fortune teller in that sense. If you believe in a reader's abilities, then you'll interpret their vague predictions as coming true when various things happen. If you don't, you won't.
In this case, faith has to come first.
Unless, and there's always an unless, right? Unless you believe God reveals himself to people. I personally do not believe that, but based on some posts in this thread, I suspect some people do. But even in that scenario, the faith comes first, doesn't it? Don't you have to be open to the existence of God for him to reveal himself to you?
I already explained I was an atheist for years, prayed once out of desperation to the God of my understanding - the God of Christianity because I was born into that religion and had a long ancestral connection to it. The prayer was answered and all subsequent prayers were answered over the years in which I continued to identify as an atheist or occasionally humbled myself to say I was agnostic. I kept trying it to see what would happen and I was shown again and again that my prayers, very specifically, were answered when presented to the God of my understanding. Finally I admitted defeat as an atheist/agnostic at the age of 40, after praying for years and being graced with help, love and mercy that I did NOT deserve. I reverted back to Catholic Christianity - with a more mature and comprehensive understanding of it this time - with my tail between my legs and have remained there ever since and will remain there.
I know you don't believe in prayer, or God and I know you probably don't pray and have no intention of ever praying. That's your business, not mine, and I don't debate these things. I'm not a Protestant or a Born Again so I don't proselytize. I'm just putting my own experience out there for anyone it might be helpful to.
And with that, I'm out. I've said all I want to say in this thread which I really liked and I hope it stays up for people to read and contribute to.
Well, that's too bad. I felt like there was a good conversation going. I'm sorry if you felt attacked or anything in that vein - it was never my attention.0 -
_barefoot_ wrote: »_barefoot_ wrote: »laprimaJenny wrote: »laprimaJenny wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »_barefoot_ wrote: »No one has said why they don't believe ...
Is there a reason to why you don't want to believe .
Are you mad at God ?
Do you feel you are not worth is love ?
10 pages later.....
I have actually tried to believe, and I was raised to. But, I got derailed when I was about 8 because I didn't understand why dinosaurs aren't in the bible (I was pretty obsessed with dinosaurs when I was little). I tried to revisit it as an adult, and I just have no faith that there is some greater power out there. Its not based out of anger, or feeling unworthy. Its just a lack of proof for me. And I just can't put faith in something I have not proof of.
I hear people say things like this all the time but I can’t fully grasp it. When you chose to love another human being, your putting faith into that person without proof or evidence that they will treat you right! I’m not arguing that you should believe. Rather im just expressing that I don’t fully understand how someone can trust a human, that is in essence faulty and likely to hurt you. Yet, not even attempt to trust God who supposedly is perfect.
I have a long track record with people, and that's why i choose to keep them at arm's reach. Don't assume everyone is inherently trusting.
Further more, why would i trust someone i have no track record on, but only a series of promises and stories? experience tells me that promises and stories are never what they are made out to be.
Bingo. This hit home.
Trusting people is not easy if you have been burned many times .
As many people have ...
But the thing is God gives you the faith to trust and forgive those who hurt you .
We are not perfect humans that is why forgiveness is so powerful .
Forgiveness is one thing. Forgetting the wrong is entirely different.
But are you dwelling in the past hurt or have you moved on ?
I'm not hurt. I don't dwell on past events or wallow in past disappointment.
But I don't forget how people have behaved. Once or twice, ok... maybe that's not indicative of who they are. But eventually, if/when trends develop... trends are behavior, not accidents, and you don't get a pass for that.0 -
"If there is no God, everything is permitted." ~ Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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Ever notice how when something terrific happens (polio vaccine, drugs that prevent HIV from turning into AIDS, magnificent musical symphonies, architecture that defies the boundaries of human imagination, fictional works of literary genius that are works of intricate beauty, simple kindnesses extended on a whim that make the difference between life and death) and when these wonderful things happen PEOPLE take or give credit to THEMSELVES exclusively.
When bad things happen (people die, people get sick, people get mistreated, people suffer in an endless and horrible variety of ways) it's always GOD that did it or who let it happen because He just doesn't care about us?
Yeah, what does that say about US and our maturity as people?
If you want to know about God (and I know most of you don't and that's okay) - but for those of you who question His existence and what He can do, then take the time to PRAY to God and really PRAY from the heart. Then you'll have an idea of what you're working with and what God can do.
Is that the way it works though? It's not like God leaves a note on your nightstand saying, "Dear Joe, Last night you asked me to watch over your family and loved ones, so today your mother is going to just miss being in a car accident. Instead of breaking her arm, the driver who runs a red light will simply pass through the intersection without causing an accident. Have a nice day."
And what about if/when you pray for things that are outside of or against His plan? What then?
Really it comes down to this -
If you have faith, you will see God's hand in various things every day. If you don't, you'll see those same things as chance, or making your own luck, or whatever else. It's not terribly different than a fortune teller in that sense. If you believe in a reader's abilities, then you'll interpret their vague predictions as coming true when various things happen. If you don't, you won't.
In this case, faith has to come first.
Unless, and there's always an unless, right? Unless you believe God reveals himself to people. I personally do not believe that, but based on some posts in this thread, I suspect some people do. But even in that scenario, the faith comes first, doesn't it? Don't you have to be open to the existence of God for him to reveal himself to you?
I already explained I was an atheist for years, prayed once out of desperation to the God of my understanding - the God of Christianity because I was born into that religion and had a long ancestral connection to it. The prayer was answered and all subsequent prayers were answered over the years in which I continued to identify as an atheist or occasionally humbled myself to say I was agnostic. I kept trying it to see what would happen and I was shown again and again that my prayers, very specifically, were answered when presented to the God of my understanding. Finally I admitted defeat as an atheist/agnostic at the age of 40, after praying for years and being graced with help, love and mercy that I did NOT deserve. I reverted back to Catholic Christianity - with a more mature and comprehensive understanding of it this time - with my tail between my legs and have remained there ever since and will remain there.
I know you don't believe in prayer, or God and I know you probably don't pray and have no intention of ever praying. That's your business, not mine, and I don't debate these things. I'm not a Protestant or a Born Again so I don't proselytize. I'm just putting my own experience out there for anyone it might be helpful to.
And with that, I'm out. I've said all I want to say in this thread which I really liked and I hope it stays up for people to read and contribute to.
Well, that's too bad. I felt like there was a good conversation going. I'm sorry if you felt attacked or anything in that vein - it was never my attention.
No not at all. I'm just very wary of being perceived as proselytizing or being argumentative and holier than thou which I was accused of being in the Vague Thread by the same person who accused me of being intensely negative (which was not you JJPPTT2). I don't think intense negativity, a holier than thou attitude or gratuitous argumentativeness is good ambassadorship for someone who wants to walk with God so I'd like to be cautious of the way I present myself when discussing these matters.
I know you like earnest and robust conversation and I know you weren't attacking me. It's just like, I can't talk about the wonders of chocolate ice cream to someone who never had chocolate ice cream and doesn't want to try it. My reversion back to Christianity was experiential - based on my experiences from prayer. Not faith, but yes, belief in the power of prayer came after I actually did it and experienced the results.
This stuff (religion/faith/the God concept) is all tied up in human relationships with authoritarianism, justice or the lack thereof, groupthink and the abuse of power. It has the potential to be rife with exploitation and that is often a sad and outrageous reality of it, I know.
Even as a Catholic Christian, I'm mostly non church going and have no Christian fellowship or community. I was (before I came back to it) driven away from acceptance of the possibility of a God through repulsive examples of sanctimony and the twisting and weaponizing of Christian tenants. I really understand the anger and dismissiveness people feel toward Christianity if they were hurt by it in these ways. It's something I remember well and will never forget and I get it.
It's really really hard to talk about this stuff when people aren't on the same page, but sure, you and me can give it another try and I'll answer all your question honestly and candidly.
I understand.
FWIW, I very much enjoy hearing your (and anyone's, for that matter) experiences, and how those experiences shape their faith, so thank you for sharing as much as you have. I have zero interest in religion, but I have a great deal of interest in faith. I believe faith is a very individual thing - ask 10 christians about their faith and you'll get 10 different answers.
I've been taught a lot, I've experienced a lot, and I've thought/reflected on things a lot. I continue to experience and reflect, and so my feelings/faith continue to change. Rather than continuing to learn (i.e. be taught), I'm trying to be exposed to more ideas, believes, etc, then think about how those things fit with what I believe. That is why I've been involved in this thread... so thank you and everyone else who has thoughtfully and politely shared their positions, beliefs and experiences.
*thumbs up*4 -
I consider myself to be a culturally Jewish agnostic. While I had a Jewish education, became bat mitzvah, occasionally attend synagogue, and encourage (okay, force) my children to do the same, I cannot say I have ever truly believed in God any more than I did the tooth fairy. (I was a skeptic right from the beginning, since my parents forgot to stick a quarter under my pillow when I lost my very first tooth.)
Judaism is not particularly concerned with the afterlife. The religion is much more concerned with the here and now and doing mitzvot (good deeds) for their own sake rather than in hopes of some eternal reward. Of course opinions about the hereafter differ among Jews. (Talk to four Jewish scholars and get five different opinions.) there is the concept of “The World to Come”...but disagreement as to whether this is some sort of parallel universe where one goes after death, or something that will come into being following some far down the road “end times.”
Judaism has always been more about debate than dogma. But I can say that the even among my Jewish friends who do believe in God, the afterlife is not what guides their moral compasses. Far more important is the concept of “tikkun olam” or improving the world...for now, for those around us, and for future generations. Which makes far more sense to me. I like to think that when I am decomposing in my simple pine box, I will be remembered for having done something to make a better world for my descendants.
I told our family minister that I was converting to Judaism.
He asked: " Really? Why? "
I replied: " Why? Are you kidding? With Judaism, there's half the required reading material."
On a separate note, I once tried to learn Hebrew. I think it would have been easier to learn Space Alien.2 -
I'm a Frisbetarian.
We believe that when you die, your soul lands on the roof and you can't get it back down.5 -
I think the Christian demands of forgiveness is flawed and if applied too zealously gives shelter to abusers. The Jewish concept is more robust and demands that the perpetrator first of all be repentant, and second, seek to make reparation. Even so the victim is under no obligation to offer forgiveness. I think this give and take is healthier.1
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"Just dance if you're caught up in the Holy Ghost trance." I don't remember who said it, probably some disciple, but I've always liked that quote best.2
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It’s the turn the other cheek comment along with seventy times seven. Christ provided the model offering his own life for the sins of others and then asked his disciples (through Paul) to do the same.
I worked with Christian battered women. Some were convinced that they had to forgive every time. As a Christian one had to do theological backflips to get past the obligation to forgive.2 -
Motorsheen wrote: »"If there is no God, everything is permitted." ~ Fyodor Dostoyevsky
"He often used to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep and every path was its tributary. 'It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door,' he used to say. 'You step into the Road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there is no telling where you might be swept off to.'"
~ Frodo Baggins
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seriously? what is the purpose of life if there is nothing else after. the question answers itself. I don't believe in god/s and I don't know what happens after this trip (neither do you) so I choose to live this life to the fullest.
Tomorrow will take care of itself.
~Matthew 6:34
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@newmeadow Your comments do come across as presumptuous. From my experience:
- Abusers pick the weak
- Systematic abuse can destroy a victims confidence
- It usually takes a few test runs for a victim to break away completely
- I have seen bullies use the bible as a brick. Take a scripture a certain way and a devout woman may believe she has to meekly submit
I took two test runs before I broke away completely and I think I was on a razors edge to utterly losing my sense of self.3 -
On the meaning of life without God.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/godaftergod.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/frankl-on-the-inner-void-of-our-lives/amp/0 -
seriously? what is the purpose of life if there is nothing else after. the question answers itself. I don't believe in god/s and I don't know what happens after this trip (neither do you) so I choose to live this life to the fullest.
Tomorrow will take care of itself.
~Matthew 6:34
“All men want, not something to do with, but something to do, or rather something to be.”
― Henry David Thoreau0 -
Agree with @SabotageinStilettos As far as views on life are concerned, I assume you mean what is the motivation to live a good life if there are no rewards for good behavior nor punishment for bad behavior? ("behavior" used for simplification. I understand that religions call for more than simply good behavior to enter paradise)
For me, living a decent life and having a positive impact on others is its own reward. Contributing to the good of our fellow man and leaving behind something that I'm proud of is enough of a carrot at the end of a stick for me to keep trying to improve myself.
In a strange way, the satisfaction that comes from helping others achieve something almost feels selfish. If there's one thing I need to improve on that's very difficult for me, it's asking for help from others. I don't know if I feel like I don't deserve it or if it's just a matter of not wanting to encroach upon someone else's time and resources, or maybe something else that I haven't even thought of, but maybe if I were to do that someone else would experience that feeling from helping me achieve my own goals. I know it sounds douchey, but this is what I've been thinking about lately when I'm being introspective.
I could have written this myself.
OP: Why do we need a reason to "live a good life". why not just be/do good for goodness sake. I treat others the way I would want to be treated, becasue that is the way I would want them to treat me. Why would religion or thought of an after life change that? If you are only being good to get past the Holy Gates, I would suggest that you are not good for goodness sake, but rather for a reward. I don't need a reward. I also want to set an example for my kids. Be kind, help others when you can, and be thankfull for what you have!
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_barefoot_ wrote: »No one has said why they don't believe ...
Is there a reason to why you don't want to believe .
Are you mad at God ?
Do you feel you are not worth is love ?
I don't think there is agod to be mad at, so def don't feel not worth deity's love. BTW, which god to you refer to? There are almost as many gods as there are religions. which god should I believe in? what if you chose the wrong one?3 -
seriously? what is the purpose of life if there is nothing else after. the question answers itself. I don't believe in god/s and I don't know what happens after this trip (neither do you) so I choose to live this life to the fullest.
Tomorrow will take care of itself.
~Matthew 6:34
“All men want, not something to do with, but something to do, or rather something to be.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Big talk from some guy living by a stupid pond.2
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