KETO DIET: Reviews and Tips
Replies
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cheryldumais wrote: »OK, I have to confess I quit reading all the comments at page 5, lol but I wanted to weigh in (pun intended, lol). I did the Atkins diet years ago and here is what I learned. On low carb I lost very quickly at the beginning then I lost my appetite and weight loss slowed but with less appetite it seemed easier for a while. After a few months on the diet I couldn't take it anymore and was ready to sell my right arm for a potato. I had lost about 50 pounds tho. I quit the diet and promptly gained 12 pounds (in a week!). I realize now it was basically water as my gylcogen stores came back. I proceeded to regain the weight I lost fairly quickly as I made up for every carb I had missed. I didn't learn anything about a lifestyle change because I was not able to maintain the low carb lifestyle. So my personal experience was:
1) I lost weight.
2) I lost my appetite
3) the rebound weight gain was brutal.
4) I couldn't maintain the program.
Over the years I tried many times to do the diet again thinking I would lose then switch to healthy eating and maintain. It never worked for me. Once my gall bladder was removed I could no longer handle the high fat component of the diet so low carb was no longer even a possibility for me. I finally lost on MFP by making lifestyle changes I could live with permanently eg: logging my food and moving regularly. If you like the low carb lifestyle and it works for you there's nothing wrong with it but ultimately for me I had to find something I could do for the rest of my life. I'm down 104 pounds and maintaining now. Remember, ultimately this is YOUR program and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Do what works for you. Good luck on your journey.
I apologize for using your response as an example, but this is a really nice and helpful post which refers to the OP's requests. Based on your experience, you listed the pros and the cons without belittling (like keto grows new limbs) or exaggerating (like keto is the only way) of either way of eating.
I wish for more responses in specific diet threads like yours.
Cheers.
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It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest3 -
It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest
Except no one is bashing keto and the only discussions that happen are when people make stupid claims about it.10 -
stevencloser wrote: »It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest
Except no one is bashing keto and the only discussions that happen are when people make stupid claims about it.
Not in that thread, no.
But that's not what I was getting at either. I did not say there was bashing. My point was that keto threads are derailed by people directing them away from trying it for some reason. People who are posting about keto aren't usually hoping to hear why keto is not needed or why it is unhealthy or unsafe - two reason of which are untrue, and third may be as well.
There is a reason that keto people are quickly directed away from the main boards, and no, it is not get them isolated to join the keto cult. (
heard that one more than a few times...) It is so the poster can get some real life info and ideas from people that keto is working for. If they want the keto cons, they are aren't directed to the keto groups for that, although they will find some answers there too.
If someone wants to eat a lot of tropical fruit, sure, keto may not be for them. If they say they think it will be hard because of lack of rice or bread, then it may not be for them either OR it could be perfect for them if those foods lead to overeating. But I'm hoping people will stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.9 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Your hypothesis that people who ask about keto must have tried other things first is flawed.
Advertising for how great keto is is everywhere. In fact, this very thread started with OP telling us she heard how easy it supposedly is and that's the reason she wants to do it. And she wanted reviews, it would be a pretty shady modus operandi to only allow positive reviews.
Your hypothesis that I am suggesting ALL people that choose LCHF or keto have tried other things is flawed.
Some people do find LCHF easy, I am certainly one of those people. Unless the OP gives it a try how do they know they wont find it as easy?
You are correct the OP was asking for advice on keto, I didn't however see her asking if people thought it was good or bad. I did notice the first two responses were advising against it and preaching IIFYM.
I was the 2nd respondent...I didn't advise against it...I gave my reasons why it wouldn't be particularly easy for me and how "easy" is pretty subjective...and I never said anything about IIFYM. Outside of cutting, I don't have any particular macro goals.
I typically do what I consider to be low carb when I cut my winter weight...usually around 130-150 grams...mostly because it's easier to reduce carbs somewhat than it is other macros...just not keto. I couldn't do it, but I've never advised against it. But people should know and understand what they're getting into. Where did I say it was "bad?"4 -
cheryldumais wrote: »OK, I have to confess I quit reading all the comments at page 5, lol but I wanted to weigh in (pun intended, lol). I did the Atkins diet years ago and here is what I learned. On low carb I lost very quickly at the beginning then I lost my appetite and weight loss slowed but with less appetite it seemed easier for a while. After a few months on the diet I couldn't take it anymore and was ready to sell my right arm for a potato. I had lost about 50 pounds tho. I quit the diet and promptly gained 12 pounds (in a week!). I realize now it was basically water as my gylcogen stores came back. I proceeded to regain the weight I lost fairly quickly as I made up for every carb I had missed. I didn't learn anything about a lifestyle change because I was not able to maintain the low carb lifestyle. So my personal experience was:
1) I lost weight.
2) I lost my appetite
3) the rebound weight gain was brutal.
4) I couldn't maintain the program.
Over the years I tried many times to do the diet again thinking I would lose then switch to healthy eating and maintain. It never worked for me. Once my gall bladder was removed I could no longer handle the high fat component of the diet so low carb was no longer even a possibility for me. I finally lost on MFP by making lifestyle changes I could live with permanently eg: logging my food and moving regularly. If you like the low carb lifestyle and it works for you there's nothing wrong with it but ultimately for me I had to find something I could do for the rest of my life. I'm down 104 pounds and maintaining now. Remember, ultimately this is YOUR program and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Do what works for you. Good luck on your journey.
I apologize for using your response as an example, but this is a really nice and helpful post which refers to the OP's requests. Based on your experience, you listed the pros and the cons without belittling (like keto grows new limbs) or exaggerating (like keto is the only way) of either way of eating.
I wish for more responses in specific diet threads like yours. Cheers.
Thank you 2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Your hypothesis that people who ask about keto must have tried other things first is flawed.
Advertising for how great keto is is everywhere. In fact, this very thread started with OP telling us she heard how easy it supposedly is and that's the reason she wants to do it. And she wanted reviews, it would be a pretty shady modus operandi to only allow positive reviews.
Your hypothesis that I am suggesting ALL people that choose LCHF or keto have tried other things is flawed.
Some people do find LCHF easy, I am certainly one of those people. Unless the OP gives it a try how do they know they wont find it as easy?
You are correct the OP was asking for advice on keto, I didn't however see her asking if people thought it was good or bad. I did notice the first two responses were advising against it and preaching IIFYM.
I was the 2nd respondent...I didn't advise against it...I gave my reasons why it wouldn't be particularly easy for me and how "easy" is pretty subjective...and I never said anything about IIFYM.
I typically do what I consider to be low carb when I cut my winter weight...usually around 130-150 grams...just not keto. I couldn't do it, but I've never advised against it. But people should know and understand what they're getting into. Where did I say it was "bad?"
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was referring to upthread when I said "spoiling for an argument". Taking things out of context, spinning them in a negative way and then disputing them. Kind of setting up strawmen to then be able to knock them down.9 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.
It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.
I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.
I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.
In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.
The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.6 -
Side note, @nvmomketo how can you say grains and starches have no nutritional value? Many of them are very nutritional dense. Things like potatoes are full of potassium and fiber, as well as other nutrients. Definitely far superior to many things like butter, creams, oils and many other items. Also, things like potatoes have been linked to high levels of satiety.
Sure there are a fee items that arent as nutritional dense, but saying all of them is wrong. I certainly don't have issue with people limiting these though.14 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.
It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.
I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.
I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.
In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.
The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.
A lot of your post contains a logic fault called generalizing from the specific. Just because you are only of the 10% to 20% keto is a great fit for doesn't mean that "many", as you stated, find it easy to do and not restrictive. That means that "some" find it easy to do and not restrictive.
And sure, ask the questions of any dieter. For "many" the answers will be obvious because a more flexible diet plan has a possible higher compliance rate. But no guarantees. Most diets fail. For reasons that have nothing to do with how easy or complicated they are to follow in my opinion. I'd love to see a statistical analysis of success rates of different diets, if such a thing exists.
You are so deep into advocacy that your posts show that you lack any real objectivity. That can happen when someone finds the "thing" that worked for them. It makes them a believer and they then begin to believe that their "thing" has much broader application. It does in only a very limited way.
And that doesn't change the fact of that "thing" will only work for 10% to 20% of people looking for a solution and fundamentally carries no metabolic advantage.7 -
Side note, @nvmomketo how can you say grains and starches have no nutritional value? Many of them are very nutritional dense. Things like potatoes are full of potassium and fiber, as well as other nutrients. Definitely far superior to many things like butter, creams, oils and many other items. Also, things like potatoes have been linked to high levels of satiety.
Sure there are a fee items that arent as nutritional dense, but saying all of them is wrong. I certainly don't have issue with people limiting these though.
I tried to specify carbs that are refined and highly processed but I may have forgotten to type in the whole phrase a few times. That was primarily what I have tried to refer to. I'd much rather have my kids eat a starchy potato than a slice of bread or drink a soda.
I do believe that items like bread or candy are nutritionally on the weak side unless fortified. Potatoes are better, but better does not mean nutritionally strong - just better than something else. There are lots of other foods that are nutritiously strong like salmon, an egg, steaks, or some whole plant foods like nuts or whatever.
I don't consider fibre a nutrient though - more of a non nutrient that helps with carbohydrate digestion. JMO
Pure fats are also nutritionally poor. Just energy. And quite gross to consider eating on their own, IMO.
Satiety does not have much to do with nutrition, except one might be driven to eat more in order to get the nutrients they are lacking,13 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.
It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.
I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.
I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.
In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.
The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.
A lot of your post contains a logic fault called generalizing from the specific. Just because you are only of the 10% to 20% keto is a great fit for doesn't mean that "many", as you stated, find it easy to do and not restrictive. That means that "some" find it easy to do and not restrictive.
And sure, ask the questions of any dieter. For "many" the answers will be obvious because a more flexible diet plan has a possible higher compliance rate. But no guarantees. Most diets fail. For reasons that have nothing to do with how easy or complicated they are to follow in my opinion. I'd love to see a statistical analysis of success rates of different diets, if such a thing exists.
You are so deep into advocacy that your posts show that you lack any real objectivity. That can happen when someone finds the "thing" that worked for them. It makes them a believer and they then begin to believe that their "thing" has much broader application. It does in only a very limited way.
And that doesn't change the fact of that "thing" will only work for 10% to 20% of people looking for a solution and fundamentally carries no metabolic advantage.
Apologies for not making my wording specific enough. I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive. They don't. If it was too restrictive for them they would quit fairly quickly - within weeks or a handful of months. They wouldn't be keto'ers anymore. Really, I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.
I am a low carb and Keto advocate. I agree. I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.
I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?9 -
Not aiming this at anyone in particular. I am addressing the direction that keto threads seem to usually go.
Perhaps people with a keto post and question could be could first be asked (trolled) if this is the first time in their life that they have tried to lose weight.... That is, if it is that important to you to make sure they don't first try a healthy diet that is just as successful as every other diet out there.
I really don't understand why people get so worried when someone limits sugars, grains and starchy carbs first. Nutritionally, those are not strong foods, and tend mainly to be just an energy source.... Which is exactly what one is trying to restrict to lose weight. You want to cut your energy intake.
Would those who caution against keto have people cut back on their eggs, meat, dairy, or leafy greens first instead of refined, highly processed, and nutritionally weak foods? Dieters have to restrict something. Restricting a little bit of everything, nutritionally strong or not, is not superior to restricting carbs.
And people continue to complain that keto'ers make outrageous claims... Most don't. Sure a few do but it is the minority. It comes at the same frequency that moderation/IIFYM/whatever dieters claim ACV is a weight loss secret, that one must use protein powder to lose weight, or that one must eat breakfast to rev up your metabolism. Don't assume all all keto dieters are preaching or clueless. I don't assume all moderation dieters think their diet is magical just because someone has the goofy belief that they must eat every 2-3 hours or their metabolism slows down.
I don't think we had any preaching or proselytizing in this thread but still, the trolling happens.
This is the original post:Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!
Thanks for your help in advance.
xx
This was part of one of the first responses:"Easy" would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find limiting carbohydrates to next to nothing very easy, nor would I find eating copious amounts of dietary fat easy or limiting protein easy?
No tips. No personal experiences offered. And incorrect information was given - only a medically prescribed therapeutic ketogenic diet restricts protein and those don't even do that much anymore (MCT is increased sometimes instead). Keto diets can end up with higher protein, which many believe is part of the satiating effects of keto.
It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:
"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"
That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.
This ^^^^^11 -
I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive.
Well, yeah. That's why they are doing it. And as previously mentioned, they represent about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 of the population.
For many others, they do find it restrictive. But, by definition, Keto is restrictive. You restrict carbs. Some are OK with that. Others aren't. Other than a few radical fringe posters, no one is denying that. Some are saying it was too restrictive for them and others are saying, why if there is no metabolic advantage? There also may be reasons why, like IR or cravings. Most folks not so much.I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.
Could be. Most diets don't have great compliance rates. If you have data on compliance rates please to post. But, so what? That doesn't make keto a universal solution for a large swath of the population. It is just one tool with viable application for some. Only an advocate who does not view it objectively would think that. Same as said above and has been said many times by me and a lot of others, for some yes, for most no.I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.
And conversely, I'm hoping someone doesn't get trolled into thinking there are benefits to it that don't really exist beyond what the research shows. Sometimes Keto advocates, including you, shade the facts with bias in inaccurate ways mixing opinion and editorial comment in and making unverifiable claims. How is that any better? That is what gets so much pushback along with the "Keto as the diet du jour" factor.
I prefer to present verifiable info and let the intelligent reader decide for themselves. If someone would be talked out of doing something they felt was beneficial be some stranger on the internet, their issues with living life are bigger than their diet.I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?
Lol, classic editorializing. No misdirection. It's simple. Keto worked for you. Great. You are now an advocate, by your own admission. So, keto is your "thing". The "thing" you believe in. You now have a bias and are no longer objective. So, you tend to shade everything to support your "thing." AKA confirmation bias.
It has been recognized and called out to you many times by many people. That's why you view others saying it didn't work for them as anti-keto or tell them they just didn't try long enough. You take on the role of a white knight for keto and all those who have a question about it. That's part of what so many react so poorly to in many of your posts and why you get such pushback.
The people whose opinions I trust around here are the ones that will consider proof sources and look at things without confirmation bias and be influenced by high quality data.
8 -
Can't we all just get along? Hold on....why does that sound so familiar to me? :-)3
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »Can't we all just get along? Hold on....why does that sound so familiar to me? :-)
That's the way it goes around here. LOL we start out on topic, it turns into a debate, and then eventually turns into more of a personal attack.9 -
I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive.
Well, yeah. That's why they are doing it. And as previously mentioned, they represent about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 of the population.
For many others, they do find it restrictive. But, by definition, Keto is restrictive. You restrict carbs. Some are OK with that. Others aren't. Other than a few radical fringe posters, no one is denying that. Some are saying it was too restrictive for them and others are saying, why if there is no metabolic advantage? There also may be reasons why, like IR or cravings. Most folks not so much.I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.
Could be. Most diets don't have great compliance rates. If you have data on compliance rates please to post. But, so what? That doesn't make keto a universal solution for a large swath of the population. It is just one tool with viable application for some. Only an advocate who does not view it objectively would think that. Same as said above and has been said many times by me and a lot of others, for some yes, for most no.I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.
And conversely, I'm hoping someone doesn't get trolled into thinking there are benefits to it that don't really exist beyond what the research shows. Sometimes Keto advocates, including you, shade the facts with bias in inaccurate ways mixing opinion and editorial comment in and making unverifiable claims. How is that any better? That is what gets so much pushback along with the "Keto as the diet du jour" factor.
I prefer to present verifiable info and let the intelligent reader decide for themselves. If someone would be talked out of doing something they felt was beneficial be some stranger on the internet, their issues with living life are bigger than their diet.I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?
Lol, classic editorializing. No misdirection. It's simple. Keto worked for you. Great. You are now an advocate, by your own admission. So, keto is your "thing". The "thing" you believe in. You now have a bias and are no longer objective. So, you tend to shade everything to support your "thing." AKA confirmation bias.
It has been recognized and called out to you many times by many people. That's why you view others saying it didn't work for them as anti-keto or tell them they just didn't try long enough. You take on the role of a white knight for keto and all those who have a question about it. That's part of what so many react so poorly to in many of your posts and why you get such pushback.
The people whose opinions I trust around here are the ones that will consider proof sources and look at things without confirmation bias and be influenced by high quality data.
By you logic, everyone has a bias then. Everyone has something they believe in unless they have no choice in their food. IIFYM, moderation, calorie counting, vegetarian, low carb, intuitive eating, whatever.
I think it was a redirection. We were talking about keto and how keto threads are treated and then you turned it around onto me. The keto white knight.... Trying to help people with keto questions, which is apparently a bad thing, so I get pushback. Okay then.
The bolded is untrue (although I'll take the keto white knight label). You're telling me that I think people are anti-keto because it didn't work for them? Really? Telling what I think? That's just funny.
I don't tell people they didn't do keto long enough if they say it didn't work for them. Again, funny and made up.
I don't want another keto thread removed so I'll stop responding to you (again) since this thread is no longer about keto but rather about what you think of me.
6 -
It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:
"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"
That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.
This is true. I'm new but I can see there is an atmosphere here that is very welcoming and encouraging of negativity and criticism about the keto diet. I am absolutely certain that I would get loads of attention if, outside the context of a debate, I made a unsupportable claim about keto, but would be utterly ignored if I made an unsupportable claim about a simple CICO diet also outside the context of debate.
That means that most keto people probably feel all the time like they can't say anything without being unreasonably careful about every word they use, making sure they phrase everything exactly right, knowing that if they say something that could be construed as slightly unscientific, it will be attacked. That's a very toxic atmosphere.
The kind of people who would stay in an atmosphere like this probably have emotional issues. So you are selecting for that. You are selecting for irrational, unstable keto proponents.
Those of us who are mathematicians who subscribe to rationality blogs and make a continuous effort to correct four our cognitive biases, we're not going to stick around here.
The last thing I would ever do is try to have a conversation here about keto. I'm brand new here and I can see what a toxic environment this is for people who respond well to this diet.
And, before you construct ad hominems about my motivation, I personally think it's a bizzarro diet and I'm constantly wondering if there's something else at play for me that keto solved accidentally. Like, I got tested for gluten intolerance because I thought maybe I had that and keto made me feel so amazing because it necessarily excludes gluten. I don't fully trust that it's actually the keto.
There are buckets full of causal ambiguity about my response to this diet and I see that very clearly.
This place is not where I should have that conversation, though. That is incredibly clear to me.10 -
goonballoon wrote: »It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:
"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"
That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.
This is true. I'm new but I can see there is an atmosphere here that is very welcoming and encouraging of negativity and criticism about the keto diet. I am absolutely certain that I would get loads of attention if, outside the context of a debate, I made a unsupportable claim about keto, but would be utterly ignored if I made an unsupportable claim about a simple CICO diet also outside the context of debate.
That means that most keto people probably feel all the time like they can't say anything without being unreasonably careful about every word they use, making sure they phrase everything exactly right, knowing that if they say something that could be construed as slightly unscientific, it will be attacked. That's a very toxic atmosphere.
The kind of people who would stay in an atmosphere like this probably have emotional issues. So you are selecting for that. You are selecting for irrational, unstable keto proponents.
Those of us who are mathematicians who subscribe to rationality blogs and make a continuous effort to correct four our cognitive biases, we're not going to stick around here.
The last thing I would ever do is try to have a conversation here about keto. I'm brand new here and I can see what a toxic environment this is for people who respond well to this diet.
And, before you construct ad hominems about my motivation, I personally think it's a bizzarro diet and I'm constantly wondering if there's something else at play for me that keto solved accidentally. Like, I got tested for gluten intolerance because I thought maybe I had that and keto made me feel so amazing because it necessarily excludes gluten. I don't fully trust that it's actually the keto.
There are buckets full of causal ambiguity about my response to this diet and I see that very clearly.
This place is not where I should have that conversation, though. That is incredibly clear to me.
I have seen people corrected when they make incorrect or unsupported claims about calorie counting or keto. Since you're new, it's understandable you may not have seen it yet. But trust me, it happens and it happens frequently.
Misinformation -- whether it's about keto, calorie counting, or whatever -- typically is addressed here.
As far as diagnosing emotional problems for the posters here who practice keto -- that seems like a huge reach. There are all kinds of people practicing keto here and their rate of emotional maladjustment doesn't seem to be higher than that of everyone else.11 -
This thread has distracted me from eating, so there's that. 5
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Thread closed.4
This discussion has been closed.
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