Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    _piaffe wrote: »
    Hi everyone. Looking for guidance on my refeed strategy. I re-read about 20 pages but am hoping I can get your insights on my data:

    5'11F
    CW: 161.5
    GW: 155
    BF ~21-22%
    TDEE: 2,500-2,700
    Deficit: 500 calories a day
    Aiming to eat 2000 (40P/30/30)

    Target NET cals Sunday - Thursday: 1350 - I achieved this (avg cals for the week was 2250 gross)
    Target NET cals Fri / Dat: 2700 - I achieved this

    This week DEFICIT days, I tried to increase carbs:
    • Saturday: 39% carbs (not 30%) - 236g (Fat was 66g)
    • Friday: 39% carbs - 260g (Fat was 53g)
    • Sunday-Thursday: 30% carbs ~125-150g

    I am "afraid" of big carb numbers. Should I try for 300g and keep fat level?

    Any insight and personal anecdata appreciated!

    Carbs are the key to the leptin boost, so yes you should aim to get them up on refeed days IMHO. That's the whole point. Otherwise you're just getting the psychological benefit of a couple of days at maintenance, not the hormonal benefits.

    Essentially, going by what Lyle has said on podcasts and in the Big Pink Book (without getting it out to check), keep protein grams the same, fat around 50g, the rest carbs. I used to usually end up higher on protein, but always aimed for at least 300g of carbs (that was based on my weight btw, shooting for a minimum of 3g per lb of lbm).
  • leanjogreen18
    leanjogreen18 Posts: 2,492 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    _piaffe wrote: »
    Hi everyone. Looking for guidance on my refeed strategy. I re-read about 20 pages but am hoping I can get your insights on my data:

    5'11F
    CW: 161.5
    GW: 155
    BF ~21-22%
    TDEE: 2,500-2,700
    Deficit: 500 calories a day
    Aiming to eat 2000 (40P/30/30)

    Target NET cals Sunday - Thursday: 1350 - I achieved this (avg cals for the week was 2250 gross)
    Target NET cals Fri / Dat: 2700 - I achieved this

    This week DEFICIT days, I tried to increase carbs:
    • Saturday: 39% carbs (not 30%) - 236g (Fat was 66g)
    • Friday: 39% carbs - 260g (Fat was 53g)
    • Sunday-Thursday: 30% carbs ~125-150g

    I am "afraid" of big carb numbers. Should I try for 300g and keep fat level?

    Any insight and personal anecdata appreciated!

    Carbs are the key to the leptin boost, so yes you should aim to get them up on refeed days IMHO. That's the whole point. Otherwise you're just getting the psychological benefit of a couple of days at maintenance, not the hormonal benefits.

    Essentially, going by what Lyle has said on podcasts and in the Big Pink Book (without getting it out to check), keep protein grams the same, fat around 50g, the rest carbs. I used to usually end up higher on protein, but always aimed for at least 300g of carbs (that was based on my weight btw, shooting for a minimum of 3g per lb of lbm).

    This is exactly what SideSteel put me at for my diet break that I just started.
  • _piaffe
    _piaffe Posts: 163 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »

    Carbs are the key to the leptin boost, so yes you should aim to get them up on refeed days IMHO. That's the whole point. Otherwise you're just getting the psychological benefit of a couple of days at maintenance, not the hormonal benefits.

    Essentially, going by what Lyle has said on podcasts and in the Big Pink Book (without getting it out to check), keep protein grams the same, fat around 50g, the rest carbs. I used to usually end up higher on protein, but always aimed for at least 300g of carbs (that was based on my weight btw, shooting for a minimum of 3g per lb of lbm).[/quote]

    Okay, thanks!

    I'll have to work harder at the carbs then - maybe a pasta dinner. I guess I'm so used 150ish g of carb, 250ish felt like a lot.

    Will give it a whirl.

  • Bob_Saccamano
    Bob_Saccamano Posts: 7 Member
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    Awesome mega-thread.

    I've been tracking calories on MFP since October, lost about 12kg (26 lbs) in 17 weeks with another 7kg (15) to go. Has gone pretty easily considering Xmas and New Year but have started to feel hungrier these past few weeks, sleep has gotten worse (hasn't been great on a deficit at the best of times) and generally started to feel a bit crabby. Googled around for strategies, wound up on Lyle's site and am sold on the idea of a diet break. On the other hand, it's a bit scary going to maintenance calories. I think it's going to take a while to figure out what my maintenance actually is so will have to increase calories slowly and see what the scale shows. I know weight isn't a reliable measure during a transition as water retention is likely to be an issue (or I might be blessed with a whooosh) but what is everyone's experiences with weight gain (or loss) when you first switched to maintenance?
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    edited February 2019
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    nickasheppard wrote: »
    Awesome mega-thread.

    I've been tracking calories on MFP since October, lost about 12kg (26 lbs) in 17 weeks with another 7kg (15) to go. Has gone pretty easily considering Xmas and New Year but have started to feel hungrier these past few weeks, sleep has gotten worse (hasn't been great on a deficit at the best of times) and generally started to feel a bit crabby. Googled around for strategies, wound up on Lyle's site and am sold on the idea of a diet break. On the other hand, it's a bit scary going to maintenance calories. I think it's going to take a while to figure out what my maintenance actually is so will have to increase calories slowly and see what the scale shows. I know weight isn't a reliable measure during a transition as water retention is likely to be an issue (or I might be blessed with a whooosh) but what is everyone's experiences with weight gain (or loss) when you first switched to maintenance?

    I have a pretty high carb diet, so switching to maintenance is really a non-issue for me if I'm eating enough fiber to keep things, um, regular. There's maybe a pound or so added to my normally wildly fluctuating weight, but that calms down after a few days.

  • admaarie
    admaarie Posts: 4,297 Member
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    This is the forum I needed to let me know I’m still on the right track 😅
  • Christismylife
    Christismylife Posts: 93 Member
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    I wondered if anyone on here has advice for me. I have about 20 pounds to lose (for reference—5’9” female and goal weight is 145). I am considering the idea of several weeks on (calorie deficit) and some amount of days/weeks off (eating at maintenance level), then starting the cycle over again. Is there an ideal ratio for on/off? Thanks!
  • Christismylife
    Christismylife Posts: 93 Member
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    gogetemrogue wrote: »
    Christismylife wrote: »
    I wondered if anyone on here has advice for me. I have about 20 pounds to lose (for reference—5’9” female and goal weight is 145). I am considering the idea of several weeks on (calorie deficit) and some amount of days/weeks off (eating at maintenance level), then starting the cycle over again. Is there an ideal ratio for on/off? Thanks!

    In the "Women's Book" Lyle McDonald recommends women with a normal BMI to take a diet break every 6-10 weeks. A diet break should at minimum be one week, but two can be good, especially if you have been feeling a lot of diet fatigue, or if you want to start up again at a particular time in your cycle.

    For those curious, he recommends dieting obese women to take a diet beak every 14-18 weeks, overweight women every 10-14 weeks, and normal BMI every 6-10 weeks. He has additional advice for people trying to reach peak fitness/performance athletes which is worth buying the book for if that is something you are interested in.

    Also as a general note, if your Day One was January 1st, you might be due for a diet break. ;)

    Thank you! This is so helpful!
  • Christismylife
    Christismylife Posts: 93 Member
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    Also, when you start a diet break (eating at maintenance), is it typical to initially see weight loss or weight gain or do most people just stabilize?
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    Christismylife wrote: »
    Also, when you start a diet break (eating at maintenance), is it typical to initially see weight loss or weight gain or do most people just stabilize?

    There are a few variables here. Replenished glycogen from carby goodness, eating out more (higher sodium), and having more food (waste) in your system will likely cause some temporary gains on the scale. If you find the process relaxing and your cortisol lowers it could even out or even drop a little depending on how stressed you were.

    Any gains will be temporary and will be most likely gone by the 10th day once you resume your normal routine. That happens faster for some people.

  • gogetemrogue
    gogetemrogue Posts: 80 Member
    edited March 2019
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    It is pretty common to see a small gain. Part of the gain can be muscle gylcogen replenishing and water retention from increasing carbs. I saw about 2 lbs gain during my diet break. 1-3 lbs is my typical "weight fluctuation" range for DOMs, cycle, etc.

    Edit: NovusDies beat me to it! I'll just reiterate that any gain is likely not fat.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    edited March 2019
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    Oh and not to scare anyone but when I took my break over Thanksgiving I experienced a fairly hefty water weight gain and it turned out that I needed to be on a mild prescription diuretic which also lowered my BP back to a normal range. I only mention it because it is a good idea to know what your normal range of weight is and when to see a doctor because you have overshot it by a healthy amount. From my highest to my lowest my range is 7.7 pounds so by the time I gained 12 I knew something was wrong. Even though it was a miserable week of whooshing and fighting to keep electrolytes the diuretic fixed it and I returned to normal with a better BP.
  • Christismylife
    Christismylife Posts: 93 Member
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    Has this study been discussed here yet? It’s one in Australia where they had obese men doing 2 weeks on (2/3 maintenance calories) and 2 weeks off (eating at maintenance calories) vs. a group who just ate at the deficit amount for 16 weeks straight. The ones who took breaks had better results overall.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.today.com/today/amp/tdna116476
  • gogetemrogue
    gogetemrogue Posts: 80 Member
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    Christismylife wrote: »
    Has this study been discussed here yet? It’s one in Australia where they had obese men doing 2 weeks on (2/3 maintenance calories) and 2 weeks off (eating at maintenance calories) vs. a group who just ate at the deficit amount for 16 weeks straight. The ones who took breaks had better results overall.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.today.com/today/amp/tdna116476

    I linked to the scholarly form of the study a couple pages back in the thread. https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo2017206?fbclid=IwAR0ZhVzOfmco8x_eNyDZHg5bRDO-udp2wCNJeYm7TjLaSqwCK8DAALxXtJE

    What is very interesting and potentially promising, is that the reduction of Resting Energy Expenditure was less for the diet break group.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    Christismylife wrote: »
    Has this study been discussed here yet? It’s one in Australia where they had obese men doing 2 weeks on (2/3 maintenance calories) and 2 weeks off (eating at maintenance calories) vs. a group who just ate at the deficit amount for 16 weeks straight. The ones who took breaks had better results overall.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.today.com/today/amp/tdna116476

    I have a hard time accepting that the on and off group actually lost more weight overall. That would mean that our metabolism adaptation is more than half of whatever the deficit of the always on group. The other thing is that obesity supposedly protects you from some of that adaptation and the study was on obese men.

    I have been in a deficit for over a year and I have only taken 2 breaks. I have lose weight as expected all along. With that said I do run a 6 day deficit schedule as I mentioned here:

    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10735146/the-six-day-calorie-deficit-aka-banking-calories

    So I do have 1 day of maintenance each week... well... most weeks... life does get in the way sometimes.

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