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Is verbal harassment common at the gym? And do women or men catch more of it?
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you.
Just throwing it out there.....but if it's in traffic, are you sure it isn't just your driving?
Nothing wrong with my driving I know the difference between someone being annoyed vs someone with a cocky smirk on their face telling me to roll my window down. Thanks.
Eh...none of us think anything is wrong with our driving. I've seen people try to get others to roll their window down just to tell them about their driving skills. Just food for thought ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Thanks.
Cool but don’t try to tell me what the situation might’ve been when you weren’t there, I was you weren’t but keep making assumptions about me and my driving because you know me to make those assumptions. Have a great day!
Then I wouldn't be making assumptions about other people, their intentions, motives or painting a gender with such a broad brush either.
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
Saying "Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way" comes across as saying it's an expected behavior, correct?....and for it to be expected that would paint a fairly broad brush across the gender (we'll even say, identifying the majority) in order for behavior as such to be anticipated, don't you think? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Women do not have the luxury of giving all men the benefit of the doubt. Yes, most encounters with men in our daily lives are harmless, but we must always be on guard for those instances when they are not. One time a man followed me off the highway to my work, fortunately there was someone else in the garage to walk me to my building. I had to have an escort for a week before I felt safe enough to go by myself. I've had men call me names because I chose not to be receptive to their overtures. Can not tell you the number of time some random dude told me to "smile". Good for you that you don't harass women, but don't tell us we don't have the right to live our lives on heightened alert.
I guess I missed the part where I said that.Yes, most encounters with men in our daily lives are harmless, but we must always be on guard for those instances when they are not.
Can't say I'd disagree with you on that, but that's different than saying women can't go anywhere without being harassed, which is what was said (and in IMHO made it sound like "all men are pigs") which was what I was replying to.
I didn't say that instances like what you've laid out never happen. In the area of the world I live in, an issue like this is at the front of everyone's mind.....10 -
Yes, most encounters with men in our daily lives are harmless, but we must always be on guard for those instances when they are not.
Can't say I'd disagree with you on that, but that's different than saying women can't go anywhere without being harassed, which is what was said (and in IMHO made it sound like "all men are pigs") which was what I was replying to.
I didn't say that instances like what you've laid out never happen. In the area of the world I live in, an issue like this is at the front of everyone's mind.....
It's not that all men are pigs. I think it's more that the select few who are, are doing it often and to many different women.
I probably walked by 100 men on my way into work today. Only one of them told me I'd look prettier if I smiled. I would bet he made that same comment to numerous women. So that 1% of men I ran into today, might have effected 30% or more of the women in the area. This is why it's a problem. Not because so many men are harassers, but because the ones who are do it so frequently. 99% of the men I interact with are perfectly decent human beings.
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Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you.
This is the claim in question.
Not sure what it has to do with the gym.
I do not find that women get harassed at the gym especially often (I'm sure it happens, but see no evidence that it happens more than other places). Saying that this is something that happens all the time and is a common problem that you will have to deal with if you go to the gym strikes me as not accurate, and something likely to discourage people from going to the gym.
If someone were harassing women at my gym, I'm sure they'd take action.11 -
Never been harrassed at the Gym or anywhere else for that matter.3
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PapillonNoire wrote: »Yes, most encounters with men in our daily lives are harmless, but we must always be on guard for those instances when they are not.
Can't say I'd disagree with you on that, but that's different than saying women can't go anywhere without being harassed, which is what was said (and in IMHO made it sound like "all men are pigs") which was what I was replying to.
I didn't say that instances like what you've laid out never happen. In the area of the world I live in, an issue like this is at the front of everyone's mind.....
It's not that all men are pigs. I think it's more that the select few who are, are doing it often and to many different women.
I probably walked by 100 men on my way into work today. Only one of them told me I'd look prettier if I smiled. I would bet he made that same comment to numerous women. So that 1% of men I ran into today, might have effected 30% or more of the women in the area. This is why it's a problem. Not because so many men are harassers, but because the ones who are do it so frequently. 99% of the men I interact with are perfectly decent human beings.
Exactly,
It's like the stat cited that X% (I don't know the value) of women have experienced sexual harassment. The false assumption is that X% of men are guilty of sexual harassment.
I don't think it does any good (either way) to paint with a broad brush. Cite specific incidents. But don't just "men do...."
It doesn't help. The men who don't do .... are put on the defensive by this assertion and the men who do likely skate by because no one is actually calling them out for specific behavior.
It's really no different than saying:
Millennials do....
Democrats do.....
Republicans do....
Christians do.....
Muslims do.....
And so on.
Seldom does the assertion accurate describe the group, let alone individuals in the group.
We live in relationship with individuals. I didn't marry women, I married a specific woman who is my wife. She didn't marry men, she married a specific man, me. I don't have blacks, whites, Europeans, Asians, etc as my neighbors. I have Tom, Tonya, Michelle, Curt, Bob, Tonya, Shawn, Jacobina, Kayla, Monica, and so on. Specific people, from across the demographic spectrum.
If Michelle does something, I don't attribute it to women, or Asians, or Baptists or whatever. Michelle did that nonsense. If Bob pulls some knuckleheaded move, I don't attribute it to men, or White Europeans, or people with monosyllabic names. Bob did the boneheaded thing.18 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
First one, you are not asking a woman to please be or feel happy (which would be "have a nice day"), you are asking her to perform for you.
Second one, NOT ALL MEN is overwhelmingly used as a way to deflect/redirect the argument and never as a real response to anyone saying "literally all men do this". If someone makes a generalisaton about women, about how women are worrying about not having babies before they're 35, for instance, I don't scream I'm not like that, that's not me. I know I'm not. I know they didn't mean me. And so do you.
Neither are about feelings.
Okay, feel, perform, whatever. The scenario asks the man to perform the stoic role where nothing bothers him.
Does it really matter if it's perform or feel? You can make a case that either is what is requested. Respond (or don't respond) to this information as I think, feel, believe you should.
The verb really doesn't matter. It's the expectation that someone act as another expects that is the problem.12 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
First one, you are not asking a woman to please be or feel happy (which would be "have a nice day"), you are asking her to perform for you.
Second one, NOT ALL MEN is overwhelmingly used as a way to deflect/redirect the argument and never as a real response to anyone saying "literally all men do this". If someone makes a generalisaton about women, about how women are worrying about not having babies before they're 35, for instance, I don't scream I'm not like that, that's not me. I know I'm not. I know they didn't mean me. And so do you.
Neither are about feelings.
Okay, feel, perform, whatever. The scenario asks the man to perform the stoic role where nothing bothers him.
Does it really matter if it's perform or feel? You can make a case that either is what is requested. Respond (or don't respond) to this information as I think, feel, believe you should.
The verb really doesn't matter. It's the expectation that someone act as another expects that is the problem.
That's a really nice, abstract idea of fairness and symmetry. As an abstraction, I agree with it.
But in practice, remarks have a social and cultural context. The words may be the same, but the context alters meaning.
I don't normally go around making broad-brush characterizations of men. In fact, I avoid it: Most generalizations (about nearly anything) are objectively false, when taken to every individual sub-case. Sometimes, if generalizations by other women about men seem really extreme to me, I'll even weigh in with some variation of "not all men" . . . and that "not all men", coming from a li'l ol' lady, has different implications (some more positive, some more negative) than if a man said the exact same thing in the very same conversation.
When cultural/social perceptions of people's role, power, value, or other similar characteristics differ, the "whole package" communication of any given statement can differ, like it or not. It's idealistic, and unrealistic (IMO), to think otherwise.
In otherwise basically equivalent circumstances, me telling a 20-year-old man to smile would have different implications (baggage), vs. a guy my age (63) telling a 20-year-old woman to smile. (Both bad - kind of creepy, in fact - but different.)
Still, none of that has much to do with harrassment in the gym, which I, too, can't recall ever having seen. On the street? At school? In the workplace? Yah, you betcha.
"Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you" is not consistent with my personal experience overall, young or old. (Maybe I've just been lucky.) But I read it as a hyperbolic statement by a frustrated person who's had a number of bad experiences, and is simply fed up . . . a communication that doesn't seem all that irrational, depending on where one lives, and what one's experiences are, based on what I've seen in everyday life.
Sure, "not all men", but it doesn't take that many to make women's lives more miserable than they need to be.
Gyms, IME, are more benign than average, as environments go.14 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Let's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
Or is that not allowed?lynn_glenmont wrote: »Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you.
Just throwing it out there.....but if it's in traffic, are you sure it isn't just your driving?
Nothing wrong with my driving I know the difference between someone being annoyed vs someone with a cocky smirk on their face telling me to roll my window down. Thanks.
Eh...none of us think anything is wrong with our driving. I've seen people try to get others to roll their window down just to tell them about their driving skills. Just food for thought ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Thanks.
Cool but don’t try to tell me what the situation might’ve been when you weren’t there, I was you weren’t but keep making assumptions about me and my driving because you know me to make those assumptions. Have a great day!
Then I wouldn't be making assumptions about other people, their intentions, motives or painting a gender with such a broad brush either.
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
Or that what is not allowed?0 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Let's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
Or is that not allowed?lynn_glenmont wrote: »Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you.
Just throwing it out there.....but if it's in traffic, are you sure it isn't just your driving?
Nothing wrong with my driving I know the difference between someone being annoyed vs someone with a cocky smirk on their face telling me to roll my window down. Thanks.
Eh...none of us think anything is wrong with our driving. I've seen people try to get others to roll their window down just to tell them about their driving skills. Just food for thought ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Thanks.
Cool but don’t try to tell me what the situation might’ve been when you weren’t there, I was you weren’t but keep making assumptions about me and my driving because you know me to make those assumptions. Have a great day!
Then I wouldn't be making assumptions about other people, their intentions, motives or painting a gender with such a broad brush either.
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
Also, "come on smile for me" (which, if you don't, all too often degrades into aggressive, in-your-face, "what's the matter with you, *kitten*? You think you're too good to smile at me?") isn't about telling someone what to feel. It's about telling someone what to do. Likewise, assuming you have the right to touch someone without their permission is not telling someone what to feel. If you can't see the difference, here's a hint. One of them can get you arrested for assault.9 -
I don't think anyone said unwanted touching is okay.7
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Who said anything about touching someone?
It was exactly what I said. In both cases, one person is telling the other how to feel or perform.
No real difference.
However, some seem to think there is a difference and it's okay when their team tells another how to perform or feel, but is against when another team uses the same strategy.
I don't think anyone suggested, certainly not me, a scenario where touching was involved.lynn_glenmont wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »Let's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
Or is that not allowed?lynn_glenmont wrote: »Females cant go anywhere anymore without guys bothering them in some way it’s pretty pathetic, not even driving in your own car. Harassing you with their eyeballs and speeding up next to you.
Just throwing it out there.....but if it's in traffic, are you sure it isn't just your driving?
Nothing wrong with my driving I know the difference between someone being annoyed vs someone with a cocky smirk on their face telling me to roll my window down. Thanks.
Eh...none of us think anything is wrong with our driving. I've seen people try to get others to roll their window down just to tell them about their driving skills. Just food for thought ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . Thanks.
Cool but don’t try to tell me what the situation might’ve been when you weren’t there, I was you weren’t but keep making assumptions about me and my driving because you know me to make those assumptions. Have a great day!
Then I wouldn't be making assumptions about other people, their intentions, motives or painting a gender with such a broad brush either.
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
Also, "come on smile for me" (which, if you don't, all too often degrades into aggressive, in-your-face, "what's the matter with you, *kitten*? You think you're too good to smile at me?") isn't about telling someone what to feel. It's about telling someone what to do. Likewise, assuming you have the right to touch someone without their permission is not telling someone what to feel. If you can't see the difference, here's a hint. One of them can get you arrested for assault.
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tbright1965 wrote: »
Okay, feel, perform, whatever. The scenario asks the man to perform the stoic role where nothing bothers him.
Does it really matter if it's perform or feel? You can make a case that either is what is requested. Respond (or don't respond) to this information as I think, feel, believe you should.
The verb really doesn't matter. It's the expectation that someone act as another expects that is the problem.
Asking someone not to respond with NOT ALL MEN is not asking them to feel differently. It's asking them to actually listen to what's being said (women relating stories of harassment) without making it all about them. If a woman says to you "I am being harassed by men at the gym/ work/ in the street/ on the internet and I hate it" the response NOT ALL MEN DO THIS is not a real response. It's a deflection. Similarly, there are also women in here saying "well I am never harassed so I cannot believe this is common" in response to multiple stories? Same thing, deflection. I actually read an article fairly recently about this which some people might find interesting.
And before you go there, being asked to smile for no reason and being asked to listen are not comparable.15 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
Okay, feel, perform, whatever. The scenario asks the man to perform the stoic role where nothing bothers him.
Does it really matter if it's perform or feel? You can make a case that either is what is requested. Respond (or don't respond) to this information as I think, feel, believe you should.
The verb really doesn't matter. It's the expectation that someone act as another expects that is the problem.
Asking someone not to respond with NOT ALL MEN is not asking them to feel differently. It's asking them to actually listen to what's being said (women relating stories of harassment) without making it all about them. If a woman says to you "I am being harassed by men at the gym/ work/ in the street/ on the internet and I hate it" the response NOT ALL MEN DO THIS is not a real response. It's a deflection. Similarly, there are also women in here saying "well I am never harassed so I cannot believe this is common" in response to multiple stories? Same thing, deflection. I actually read an article fairly recently about this which some people might find interesting.
And before you go there, being asked to smile for no reason and being asked to listen are not comparable.
This was the post I was answering:lynn_glenmont wrote: »
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
I don't think my response suggested that one person not listen to another. People don't need to listen to one another. But that doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't.
But your point brings up another contradiction. On one hand, you suggest entitlement in the form of demanding attention. Then you say being asked to listen isn't the same. Well, maybe. But if your logic is consistent, there is no more an expectation that someone listen than their is for the woman to pay attention to unwanted conversation, right?
Second, it's right there in the post to which I replied, "You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior."
That's not asking anyone to listen, it's telling people how they should feel. It sets up the false equivalency of if you take offense, you must be guilty.
So again, are you actually listening (not that you have to) to what I'm saying, or are you creating straw-men to beat down?
Because from this side of the internet, it seems you are responding to things I've not said here.
But feel free, or not, to post where I said one SHOULDN'T listen to another.
I can listen, consider, and still not agree and find the message offensive. Listening doesn't imply agreement.
Further, critiquing the message doesn't mean there isn't good in it. I pointed out the part with which I had a problem. Suggesting that if someone has a problem with the message must have some sort of defect is a rather manipulative means of persuasion.
Win the case on the merits of your argument, not by employing the ad hominem or the ad populum fallacies to shame people in just taking the argument on the surface without deeper study. Fix the weaknesses and problems with the argument, don't just attack the people who call them out.
Edited to add. Asking someone to NOT respond with "Not all men" is really no different than asking someone to give me a smile.
It's demanding a performance.
Perhaps you could simply listen and accept that people do see them as the same form of behavior.
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I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.10 -
AliNouveau wrote: »I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
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tbright1965 wrote: »
This was the post I was answering:
I don't think my response suggested that one person not listen to another. People don't need to listen to one another. But that doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't.
But your point brings up another contradiction. On one hand, you suggest entitlement in the form of demanding attention. Then you say being asked to listen isn't the same. Well, maybe. But if your logic is consistent, there is no more an expectation that someone listen than their is for the woman to pay attention to unwanted conversation, right?
Second, it's right there in the post to which I replied, "You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior."
That's not asking anyone to listen, it's telling people how they should feel. It sets up the false equivalency of if you take offense, you must be guilty.
So again, are you actually listening (not that you have to) to what I'm saying, or are you creating straw-men to beat down?
Because from this side of the internet, it seems you are responding to things I've not said here.
But feel free, or not, to post where I said one SHOULDN'T listen to another.
I can listen, consider, and still not agree and find the message offensive. Listening doesn't imply agreement.
Further, critiquing the message doesn't mean there isn't good in it. I pointed out the part with which I had a problem. Suggesting that if someone has a problem with the message must have some sort of defect is a rather manipulative means of persuasion.
Win the case on the merits of your argument, not by employing the ad hominem or the ad populum fallacies to shame people in just taking the argument on the surface without deeper study. Fix the weaknesses and problems with the argument, don't just attack the people who call them out.
Edited to add. Asking someone to NOT respond with "Not all men" is really no different than asking someone to give me a smile.
It's demanding a performance.
Perhaps you could simply listen and accept that people do see them as the same form of behavior.
I was specifically responding to your assertion that there was a double standard. That asking men to listen to what is actually being said in a conversation (and not deliberately hearing something that wasn't said) is the same as being asked to smile by a stranger. I may or may not agree with lynn_g's statement, I haven't addressed it.
You're going some really strange places with your arguments. I have bolded the relevant part above. If I was cornering men (say in the gym) and forcing them to talk to me about feminism then there might be a parallel with someone coming up to me and telling me to smile, but that is not a thing. There is no such epidemic. The situation I assumed we were both talking about is in the context of an existing conversation (this thread) where one party is relating an experience and, in the case we are talking about, the respondent doesn't engage with any of the substance, they just say "well not all men." If you're not going to listen or engage what's the point in responding at all except to distract from the real conversation? The one point I would maybe see worth arguing about is whether the people who respond in this way know that they are deflecting and not engaging (I think they do, because people do not have the same reactions to other bland generalisations), or whether they genuinely feel accused of something.
Straw men, ad hominem, false equivalence, ad populum. I know this is the debate section but I'm honestly just saying what I think. There's no need to get tied in knots.
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My advice for those who want to avoid gym nonsense is: if you are able to, go to the gym very early in the morning. Everyone at that hour just wants to exercise, there is nobody stalking, flirting, goofing around, prancing in front of the mirror, etc.7
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I was specifically responding to your assertion that there was a double standard. That asking men to listen to what is actually being said in a conversation (and not deliberately hearing something that wasn't said) is the same as being asked to smile by a stranger. I may or may not agree with lynn_g's statement, I haven't addressed it.
You're going some really strange places with your arguments. I have bolded the relevant part above. If I was cornering men (say in the gym) and forcing them to talk to me about feminism then there might be a parallel with someone coming up to me and telling me to smile, but that is not a thing. There is no such epidemic. The situation I assumed we were both talking about is in the context of an existing conversation (this thread) where one party is relating an experience and, in the case we are talking about, the respondent doesn't engage with any of the substance, they just say "well not all men." If you're not going to listen or engage what's the point in responding at all except to distract from the real conversation? The one point I would maybe see worth arguing about is whether the people who respond in this way know that they are deflecting and not engaging (I think they do, because people do not have the same reactions to other bland generalisations), or whether they genuinely feel accused of something.
Straw men, ad hominem, false equivalence, ad populum. I know this is the debate section but I'm honestly just saying what I think. There's no need to get tied in knots.
I think there are certainly some people who simply want to deflect and dismiss, but sometimes it can be the way the experience is presented. If I say to my husband (or any other male in my life) 'I'm getting harassed by a guy on the street, at the gym, at work, etc.,' I'm likely going to get a sympathetic response and/or an offer to help. But if I start the scenario with 'men are jerks and pigs and your gender is awful!', they may feel defensive and point out that they are not like that. And I can't fault them for that reaction.
I'm not saying that some people still won't be completely dismissive, regardless of how it's presented.11 -
AliNouveau wrote: »I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would like to wear whatever wherever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
I'm wearing leggings to do a sport. maybe this guy passes comments to women in the grocery store who bends over to get stuff while wearing leggings. ewww.
I avoid him but when he's on the sheet of ice beside me and all that separates us is a line drawn on the ice it's a bit hard to avoid him. I use my kind burly skip as a buffer as much as I can but if I'm holding the broom to call a shot it's hard to walk away when the perv advances.7 -
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