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Is verbal harassment common at the gym? And do women or men catch more of it?
Replies
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PapillonNoire wrote: »I think there are certainly some people who simply want to deflect and dismiss, but sometimes it can be the way the experience is presented. If I say to my husband (or any other male in my life) 'I'm getting harassed by a guy on the street, at the gym, at work, etc.,' I'm likely going to get a sympathetic response and/or an offer to help. But if I start the scenario with 'men are jerks and pigs and your gender is awful!', they may feel defensive and point out that they are not like that. And I can't fault them for that reaction.
I'm not saying that some people still won't be completely dismissive, regardless of how it's presented.
But you're saying two completely different things there? "A guy" is singling out an individual and "your gender is awful" is explicitly including him. You're not wrong that of course the way you say things is important but I don't think that's the right example.
One of my own: "Men said gross things to me all the time when I worked retail." Men did. Not all men did. I didn't say all men did, but that statement might still get "Not all men are like that" instead of a "that's disgusting, I'm sorry that happened".
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
If you say you would like things to be this way, why are you blaming her for wearing what she likes and not this gross old creep for stopping her? You're putting the onus to change on the wrong party here.AliNouveau wrote: »
I'm wearing leggings to do a sport. maybe this guy passes comments to women in the grocery store who bends over to get stuff while wearing leggings. ewww.
I avoid him but when he's on the sheet of ice beside me and all that separates us is a line drawn on the ice it's a bit hard to avoid him. I use my kind burly skip as a buffer as much as I can but if I'm holding the broom to call a shot it's hard to walk away when the perv advances.
Never in my life got more disgusting comments as when I worked in grocery. Company issue black trousers and a multi-coloured stripe button down that looked like a circus tent. It's never about what you're wearing.
He's doing it because he can, he gets off on it, and probably even more so that it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really sorry you can't relax and have fun because of this piece of work. Hey, if he's that old he might croak soon!12 -
I was specifically responding to your assertion that there was a double standard. That asking men to listen to what is actually being said in a conversation (and not deliberately hearing something that wasn't said) is the same as being asked to smile by a stranger. I may or may not agree with lynn_g's statement, I haven't addressed it.
You're going some really strange places with your arguments. I have bolded the relevant part above. If I was cornering men (say in the gym) and forcing them to talk to me about feminism then there might be a parallel with someone coming up to me and telling me to smile, but that is not a thing. There is no such epidemic. The situation I assumed we were both talking about is in the context of an existing conversation (this thread) where one party is relating an experience and, in the case we are talking about, the respondent doesn't engage with any of the substance, they just say "well not all men." If you're not going to listen or engage what's the point in responding at all except to distract from the real conversation? The one point I would maybe see worth arguing about is whether the people who respond in this way know that they are deflecting and not engaging (I think they do, because people do not have the same reactions to other bland generalisations), or whether they genuinely feel accused of something.
Straw men, ad hominem, false equivalence, ad populum. I know this is the debate section but I'm honestly just saying what I think. There's no need to get tied in knots.
Perhaps what you describe as a strange place is my OCD logical mind just having a normal day.
The world would be so much easier for me if it had a lot fewer double standards.
And yes, I do have a reaction of sorts to all sorts of generalizations that trigger that dislike for double standards.
My point is, we can choose to paint with broad brushes and compare victim cards, and I can talk about unfaithful ex-wives and how Mother's Day sermons in church are all about how great moms are while Father's Day sermons are about how men need to step it up, or about how society states men are not as good at relationships as women. (Not different strengths, just not as good.) Or how our desires are base, carnal, or immature, while women are none of those things. Or how my pastor asked me what I did to force my ex-wife to have an affair. Or how society tells us that we are not as good as women at parenting. Or how men are not into commitment when 2/3rd to 3/4s of all divorces are filed by women, and seldom filed against abusive or adulterous men. (Divorce information from Dr Willard Harley, author of His Needs, Her Needs, paraphrased his findings for when women file for divorce.)
So yes, pardon me when I take exception to some really bad generalizations.
I believe I can understand what many women go through when they experience the same sort of thing.
It may not be the same in form. But I cannot imagine such is any less destructive for men, in general, than what women experience is destructive for them.15 -
AliNouveau wrote: »I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
I politely disagree. Wearing leggings is not an invitation. I don’t think the answer is for people to wear loose clothing or your kids’ friend to take off their cat ears. Personal responsibility should be on the 80 year old man who’s making inappropriate remarks and the kids at school who aren’t tolerant.16 -
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tbright1965 wrote: »
Perhaps what you describe as a strange place is my OCD logical mind just having a normal day.
The world would be so much easier for me if it had a lot fewer double standards.
And yes, I do have a reaction of sorts to all sorts of generalizations that trigger that dislike for double standards.
[some mad things I have snipped in case you wish to later remove them]
.
You are telling on yourself here. None of this is relevant, except to explain why you're trying so hard to tell women they're wrong about things.15 -
PapillonNoire wrote: »I think there are certainly some people who simply want to deflect and dismiss, but sometimes it can be the way the experience is presented. If I say to my husband (or any other male in my life) 'I'm getting harassed by a guy on the street, at the gym, at work, etc.,' I'm likely going to get a sympathetic response and/or an offer to help. But if I start the scenario with 'men are jerks and pigs and your gender is awful!', they may feel defensive and point out that they are not like that. And I can't fault them for that reaction.
I'm not saying that some people still won't be completely dismissive, regardless of how it's presented.
But you're saying two completely different things there? "A guy" is singling out an individual and "your gender is awful" is explicitly including him. You're not wrong that of course the way you say things is important but I don't think that's the right example.
One of my own: "Men said gross things to me all the time when I worked retail." Men did. Not all men did. I didn't say all men did, but that statement might still get "Not all men are like that" instead of a "that's disgusting, I'm sorry that happened".
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
If you say you would like things to be this way, why are you blaming her for wearing what she likes and not this gross old creep for stopping her? You're putting the onus to change on the wrong party here.AliNouveau wrote: »
I'm wearing leggings to do a sport. maybe this guy passes comments to women in the grocery store who bends over to get stuff while wearing leggings. ewww.
I avoid him but when he's on the sheet of ice beside me and all that separates us is a line drawn on the ice it's a bit hard to avoid him. I use my kind burly skip as a buffer as much as I can but if I'm holding the broom to call a shot it's hard to walk away when the perv advances.
Never in my life got more disgusting comments as when I worked in grocery. Company issue black trousers and a multi-coloured stripe button down that looked like a circus tent. It's never about what you're wearing.
He's doing it because he can, he gets off on it, and probably even more so that it makes you uncomfortable. I'm really sorry you can't relax and have fun because of this piece of work. Hey, if he's that old he might croak soon!
haha love the bolded. and if I remember correctly the butt comments where when I was wearing my curling pants which are Lululemon pants so they have the magical Lululemon properties of making all butts look amazing but I digress.2 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
Perhaps what you describe as a strange place is my OCD logical mind just having a normal day.
The world would be so much easier for me if it had a lot fewer double standards.
And yes, I do have a reaction of sorts to all sorts of generalizations that trigger that dislike for double standards.
[some mad things I have snipped in case you wish to later remove them]
.
You are telling on yourself here. None of this is relevant, except to explain why you're trying so hard to tell women they're wrong about things.
You are killing me smols. So now you get to decide what is relevant in my story. How rich.
Right, okay. Odd that from my perspective, I've not said women were wrong. I have said that it seems to be a double standard.
Are you saying double standards are right? That I am wrong to bristle at double standards?
I wish you well. Apparently, you are fine with double standards. I see little evidence that you wish to understand. I've tried to show my work, and provide a peek behind the curtain. But instead of saying, Oh, I can see how you might feel that way, I see your point. Just more dismissal and suggesting my perspective is not based in relevance.
Have the sort of day you wish to have.14 -
AliNouveau wrote: »I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
There is an expectation that if you dress in a certain way that you will attract attention and a reaction. For example, if I walk around Columbus, Ohio with a Michigan Wolverines football jersey or around Berkely, California with a bright red MAGA hat, I expect that there will be people I come across who will be unable to control themselves and will make comments or act out. That doesn't make it right, but I understand this when I choose to dress that way in certain environments.12 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
You are killing me smols. So now you get to decide what is relevant in my story. How rich.
Right, okay. Odd that from my perspective, I've not said women were wrong. I have said that it seems to be a double standard.
Are you saying double standards are right? That I am wrong to bristle at double standards?
I wish you well. Apparently, you are fine with double standards. I see little evidence that you wish to understand. I've tried to show my work, and provide a peek behind the curtain. But instead of saying, Oh, I can see how you might feel that way, I see your point. Just more dismissal and suggesting my perspective is not based in relevance.
Have the sort of day you wish to have.
None of it is in any way relevant to this topic. Which was a specific double standard that you see and I do not. What has your ex-wife having had an affair got to do with it?
The bolded: I meant your extraordinarily wordy and convoluted responses in this thread. To me and to others who are also female presenting. You seem to be enjoying yourself.8 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »
There is an expectation that if you dress in a certain way that you will attract attention and a reaction. For example, if I walk around Columbus, Ohio with a Michigan Wolverines football jersey or around Berkely, California with a bright red MAGA hat, I expect that there will be people I come across who will be unable to control themselves and will make comments or act out. That doesn't make it right, but I understand this when I choose to dress that way in certain environments.
You are making a deliberate statement with those things. In this case she is wearing work-out clothing to play a sport. Do her leggings say I ENJOY SEXUAL COMMENTS FROM THE ELDERLY across the *kitten*?
To be honest that's not even the real point, which is that sexual harassment should never be an acceptable reaction to anything and the responsibility for that not happening lies with the person actually making the comments.
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If you deny and dismiss, you are unable to see.
Go back, without denying and dismissing what I've said and read and it should be clear.
I've already highlighted the double standards.tbright1965 wrote: »
You are killing me smols. So now you get to decide what is relevant in my story. How rich.
Right, okay. Odd that from my perspective, I've not said women were wrong. I have said that it seems to be a double standard.
Are you saying double standards are right? That I am wrong to bristle at double standards?
I wish you well. Apparently, you are fine with double standards. I see little evidence that you wish to understand. I've tried to show my work, and provide a peek behind the curtain. But instead of saying, Oh, I can see how you might feel that way, I see your point. Just more dismissal and suggesting my perspective is not based in relevance.
Have the sort of day you wish to have.
None of it is in any way relevant to this topic. Which was a specific double standard that you see and I do not. What has your ex-wife having had an affair got to do with it?
The bolded: I meant your extraordinarily wordy and convoluted responses in this thread. To me and to others who are also female presenting. You seem to be enjoying yourself.
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PapillonNoire wrote: »I think there are certainly some people who simply want to deflect and dismiss, but sometimes it can be the way the experience is presented. If I say to my husband (or any other male in my life) 'I'm getting harassed by a guy on the street, at the gym, at work, etc.,' I'm likely going to get a sympathetic response and/or an offer to help. But if I start the scenario with 'men are jerks and pigs and your gender is awful!', they may feel defensive and point out that they are not like that. And I can't fault them for that reaction.
I'm not saying that some people still won't be completely dismissive, regardless of how it's presented.
But you're saying two completely different things there? "A guy" is singling out an individual and "your gender is awful" is explicitly including him. You're not wrong that of course the way you say things is important but I don't think that's the right example.
One of my own: "Men said gross things to me all the time when I worked retail." Men did. Not all men did. I didn't say all men did, but that statement might still get "Not all men are like that" instead of a "that's disgusting, I'm sorry that happened".
Yes, I was presenting two very different statements to illustrate how important presentation/communication can be. They were meant to polarizing; there is obviously a whole spectrum of how it could be presented, and thus a whole spectrum of responses.
In your example, some of the responses might be inferring something you didn't actually say (i.e. they heard "all men" even if you didn't say it). In that case, I would want to know why they made that inference. Was it just that they weren't listening? Were they actively trying to be dismissive? Had someone recently spouted off something similar to my first example (all men are jerks!), and they are already feeling defensive going in? Did I not communicate my experience clearly? I don't find it helpful to assume people have the worst of intentions. IME, many disagreements and offenses are actually just miscommunications.0 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »
There is an expectation that if you dress in a certain way that you will attract attention and a reaction. For example, if I walk around Columbus, Ohio with a Michigan Wolverines football jersey or around Berkely, California with a bright red MAGA hat, I expect that there will be people I come across who will be unable to control themselves and will make comments or act out. That doesn't make it right, but I understand this when I choose to dress that way in certain environments.
You are making a deliberate statement with those things. In this case she is wearing work-out clothing to play a sport. Do her leggings say I ENJOY SEXUAL COMMENTS FROM THE ELDERLY across the *kitten*?
To be honest that's not even the real point, which is that sexual harassment should never be an acceptable reaction to anything and the responsibility for that not happening lies with the person actually making the comments.
Review what I typed above, bolded. Don't confuse an observation with an endorsement.7 -
I think of some of this recent polarization and negative communication is more basic.
People mostly don't like being called out or criticized for things they've long done, but not previously been criticized for. It (internally) brings them up short.
Further, people who are members of a group or class of people mostly don't like it when others (especially people not members of that group/class) make generalizations about the group/class that may have some statistical basis, but that are not true of them personally. (Fairly mild example: "Men are physically stronger than women", especially coming from a man, is unlikely to be well received by a woman who is stronger than most men. (I'm not saying she necessarily would express that feeling, BTW, but many in that spot would feel a little cranky.) If the generalization is critical, they may feel personally criticized: That's just human.
Combine those two things, and put them in a context where there are perceived differences in group/class power or status or things of that nature, and interesting things will happen, at the emotional level, at least . . . and sometimes more visibly.
So, "men act like jerks, telling women to smile and catcalling them" (something I wouldn't say, as a generality, but it gets said, out of frustration/anger-induced hyperbole) is a thing that calls out a group or class ("men") for doing something that an annoying minority have done for probably centuries without much push-back (though it could get you beaten or lynched if the power dynamics were a little more murky). Yes, that particular phrasing strictly needn't mean "all men do this" but could mean "the people who do this are men".
Personally, I think it's a good plan to avoid saying hyperbolic things that are potentially inflammatory, because it hinders actual communication, and I'm the party I have the most control over in any conversation. But that's just me. I understand where the hyperbole comes from, and share the frustration, in this particular scenario.
So, looking at the audience side of things, where some individual person is brought up short by this kind of rhetorical, hyperbolic generalization (that has some statistical basis, but not necessarily a majority at all
):
People respond differently.
Some subset of the "criticized" group have good (positive) ego strength, are attuned to the context of the statement, are empathetic by nature, and so forth. Some of that subset (possibly among others) will hear the underlying message, take it on board, and maybe it will begin to influence their attitudes toward those evolving social situations. They (subset of subset) may or may not say anything.
Some subset of the "criticized" group may have a little less ego strength, may be more black-and-white thinkers, may be more traditionalist about "this is how it's always been", and possibly may be a little bit sensitive personally (thin-skinned, to cartoon it). Some of that subset (possibly among others) will feel personally and unfairly criticized, and of those, some will quickly say something like "not all XYZ", where XYZ is the "criticized" group. They may possibly not be taking in the message, but may possibly have some of it sink in. No way to know. They may be deflecting (or not), they may be playing a power card (or not), and more. No way to know.
The foregoing assumes people of good will and good behavior. The actual jerks in the "criticized" crowd, the ones who created the basis for the statistical generalization, are probably in a whole different emotional/intellectual space about it: Maybe egocentric (in a negative sense), feel entitled, inclined to act out in various ways. I wouldn't even try to reach them.
Similarly, possibly some in the "criticizing" group are acting out, rather than trying to engage in actual communication; they may be trolling; or other possible negative things. We also have no way to know their interior state.
Personally, I feel (as a non-activist, just a regular person with opinions) that it's usually most effective to be careful with hyperbolic statements that (seem to) paint with a broad brush, especially in charged situations. It can quickly alienate some potentially-persuade-able allies. Its main value is letting off steam, and there are other ways to do that.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's probably good that some people are slogan-shouting radicals; I just don't think it's a good universal tactic, especially in one-to-one (or one-to-few) kinds of communications.
I still say most gyms are pretty safe . . . although one of my worst recent personal experiences was just outside a college gym, where a group of 3-4 20-ish y/o men got out of a car, saw me (obese, 50-something woman bundled up in Winter jackets/clothes) walking down the sidewalk, and started very graphically telling me what they wanted to do to me, or me to do to them. Those things were not "give me a mother's day card like I was their granny" or "have me bake them cookies". We won't go into details.
Happily for my attitude, moments later I met, by surprise, a similar-age nephew of a friend, who recognized me and greeted me with enthusiasm and was just generally nice, smart, funny, social, etc.12 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »AliNouveau wrote: »I currently have a situation. I don't go to the gym, I figure skate and curl. I have a "fan" right now on the curling rink. Started out as just a friendly old man offering to help me out since I'm a newer curler and still learning. Now he comes and watches my games and he makes any opportunity to talk to me and to joke or she hug me. The line was crossed when he made a couple of comments about my butt as I bent over to fix my shoes one game. I have told a few people and this guy is known for being a "ladies man". I will go to the management if it gets more harassing luckily he's like 80 so I should be able to outrun him.
Most of the women curlers dress in sweats or baggy clothing. I can't do that I like to wear my leggings and leg warmers and I don't think I should have to change my flamboyant ways because an old man wants to be creepy.
I get lots of up and down looks and stares but having grown up skating I can easily deal with that and I usually figure it's cause I'm either wearing plaid leggings or hot pink leg warmers. When we were training in our teens we'd have people show up to practice sessions because they enjoyed watching. It's just the comments that make it feel awkward and gross and is now making me take the "long" route off the rink or leaving with a buddy. It's annoying but I won't let it take the pleasure out of the game for me.
I believe in personal responsibility.
in high school my kids had a male friend who like to wear cat ears to school...and then complained about the attention he got for wearing cat ears to school
while we all would liked to wear whatever wherever whenever and just BE accepted supported and loved...that is not reality.
so much for the clothes part of this.
and as for the 80 yr old man - ick...I don't know why you continue to talk to him if he is so creepy.
There is an expectation that if you dress in a certain way that you will attract attention and a reaction. For example, if I walk around Columbus, Ohio with a Michigan Wolverines football jersey or around Berkely, California with a bright red MAGA hat, I expect that there will be people I come across who will be unable to control themselves and will make comments or act out. That doesn't make it right, but I understand this when I choose to dress that way in certain environments.
I'm not saying anyone should not do any of these things, but wearing UofM gear in Columbus, or a MAGA hat in Berkeley, or (for that matter) wearing cat ears in a typical public school, is a different level of . . . well, intentional choice to be unusual and provoking, probably, unless one is a naive recent immigrant or something . . . compared to wearing normal workout clothes to work out, even though it's true that one could potentially make other choices.
Even a curling burqa wouldn't protect a woman from some guys' behavior. I don't think we need to give those guys a pass on their behavior, because I don't think clothes would make much difference. At most, it would affect choice of victim . . . but IME it probably wouldn't have much effect even on that.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html
I think the problem is more like a small minority of (mostly) men behaving really badly, and often - outside the pale behavior, really - so that their behavior (in various degrees of severity) is a fairly common problem for a fairly large number of women.7 -
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I have never experienced that at the gym, neither as an employee nor a patron. But I tend to keep to myself when working out, and I am a big-ish guy, so that could have something to do with it.1
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I don't think anyone said unwanted touching is okay.
In response to my saying
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
tbright1965 saidLet's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
That's either saying that unwanted touching is OK or pretending it doesn't exist. Sweeping it under the rug. Ignoring the fact that it happens. It's just about being told to "feel something," not about being told what to do ("smile") and being told that you're uptight if you object to someone putting their hand on your shoulder or your waist or wherever it goes next.6 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Who said anything about touching someone?
I did. I guess you weren't paying attention. Because, hey, it's just about someone telling you to "feel" (how is being ordered what to do with my face telling me how to feel and not telling me what to do?), and anything else I might have said wasn't worth paying attention to. Because clearly if I'm objecting to being told to smile and being called a *kitten* for not doing it (because half the time if I do the guy is going to take it as encouragement and escalate to insisting I go somewhere with him for a drink, and then he's going to think he has the right to touch me), I must just be exaggerating and what's the point in paying attention to what I'm saying, anyway. Hey, if God meant women to talk, he wouldn't have invented ball-gags, am I right?15 -
I work out at a gym with mostly military men. About 6 years ago I had one guy go to town on another guy who was apparently fat-shaming me. I had no idea - I was on the treadmill trying not to die with earbuds listening to trance! After I could hear shouting, I took off my earbuds, where this 18/19 year old boy apologised. I looked at him confusingly - and then the older military man told me what happened.
Apparently I was using "his" treadmill and he wanted it. I was so in the zone that I did not hear the guy. So he started insulting me. Cue older military man's disgust. I took pity on the 18/19 year old and explained to him that any type of shaming is wrong. That he may be fit today, but life happens. I was calm, but firm with him. He got an absolute lecture from me.
I still see him. He said my firmness and reproach was far more uncomfortable than the older military mans. He said my home truths really hurt (I was brutal and calm - another military person taught me how to be like that!). He has seriously grown up and I see him now helping people around the gym instead of passing judgement. He has become a real gentleman.
Harrassment does happen. But it's really really rare. I'm glad this person had a moment of clarity to change his behaviour.16 -
This thread makes me sad, as a wife, a mother of two boys and a grandmother of four.9
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tbright1965 wrote: »
Second, it's right there in the post to which I replied, "You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior."
That's not asking anyone to listen, it's telling people how they should feel. It sets up the false equivalency of if you take offense, you must be guilty.
Why are you taking offense when no one is talking about you? If you don't behave in the ways described, it's not about you. Women talking about the reality of their lives is not about you. Again, you read an accusation into my statement that was not there. I'm saying that if you don't identify with the behavior described, there's no reason for you to feel accused. No reason for you to feel like the conversation is about you. No reason to say "not all men" because nobody said "all men."
No one is saying all men do the things described. They're saying that for many women, the repeated experiences with that behavior by some men, and the need to weigh whether any given place they might go or thing they might do is worth the risk, is really wearing/stultifying/restricting/other adjectives that may be true for other women. When you try to turn it into an argument about "not all men," you're making it about you and not about the women who have had that experience. If you don't do these things, nobody's talking about you.
But we can. You imply you don't do these things. How often do you call out the men who do? How often do you call out other guys in a guys-only space when they objectify women or tell stories about sexual conquests that involve women too drunk to give consent, or passed out completely, or in which they promise to give her a lift home and then pull over somewhere isolated and figure that if she doesn't actually scream and try to scratch their eyes out (because raising the stakes to a physical fight with someone stronger, heavier, with a longer reach who by this time may already be on top of you is clearly a good idea in all cases, right?), she's good with whatever happens? How often do you call out other guys? Because you wanted this conversation to be about you.
To get back to the original point of the thread (and I have said this elsewhere, or even in this thread -- there have been a couple similar ones), in my experience, gyms are among the safest places in my experience to be a woman and not have to worry about being there alone and the ways some guys might behave.
But there are a lot of other health-positive things I don't do because of the risk of harassment or worse -- and it's a scale of bad behavior, pretending that we're only going to talk about orders to "smile" is ridiculous, because a woman can never know whether it's going to end there. There's a great trail that starts in a park near me that I could get on and bike for miles and eventually connect to other trails that go on for scores of miles. But I won't do that alone. The risk is just way too high.20 -
So, "men act like jerks, telling women to smile and catcalling them" (something I wouldn't say, as a generality, but it gets said, out of frustration/anger-induced hyperbole) is a thing that calls out a group or class ("men") for doing something that an annoying minority have done for probably centuries without much push-back (though it could get you beaten or lynched if the power dynamics were a little more murky). Yes, that particular phrasing strictly needn't mean "all men do this" but could mean "the people who do this are men".
Except in this particular case, what set off this particular "not all men" response was not anybody saying men are jerks, but someone saying everywhere women go (presumably including the gym) they run into jerky behavior by [people who are] men. Not even every time women go anywhere, but just that no space is a refuge from this kind of behavior. The "not all men" response that diverts the conversation from women explaining what their realities are to worrying about the hurt feelings of men who say not all men are like the ones giving women a hard time (again, nobody said they were!) doesn't need anything close to a "hyperbolic" suggestion that "men act like jerks, telling women to smile and catcalling them" to trigger it from some men.
I think I've gotten through life so far pretty lightly compared to vast numbers of women, but I'm pretty sure that if I put out there on most any forum or comment board that had men on it that by the time I was 13, two men had exposed themselves to me; the older brother of a friend had pinned me against a wall, groped my breasts and ground his penis against my body and laughed about it/at me when I managed to slip out of his grasp; a boy in the neighborhood with whom I had next to no interaction out of nowhere one day yelled at me out on the street "[my last name] is a c**t; [my last name] is a *kitten*"; a male elementary school teacher repeatedly asked me (and other girls, but always just one at a time) to stay after class to do things like clean the blackboard and always insisted on hugging me before I left, in a way that made me uncomfortable although I wasn't really able to articulate why until I spoke to another girl in the class who was a little more worldly than me; and that I couldn't begin to count the number of times I had experienced cat calls -- all by the time I was 13 -- there would be a man on that forum or comment board saying, "not all men" in response to my specific, non-generalized, non-hyperbolic experiences.
ETA: the *kitten* was w***e (as in slang for prostitute) -- I assumed c**t would get the kitten treatment, but it didn't occur to me that MFP would give w***e that treatment.13 -
I had a naked conversation in a locker room with a gay guy, and no, never.3
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »I don't think anyone said unwanted touching is okay.
In response to my saying
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
tbright1965 saidLet's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
That's either saying that unwanted touching is OK or pretending it doesn't exist. Sweeping it under the rug. Ignoring the fact that it happens. It's just about being told to "feel something," not about being told what to do ("smile") and being told that you're uptight if you object to someone putting their hand on your shoulder or your waist or wherever it goes next.
Quotes are messed up, but I really don't get how you get that from what tbright said.
The charitable thing would be to ask him if that's what he meant.2 -
I don't think anyone said unwanted touching is okay.
In response to my saying
She didn't say all guys. It doesn't take 100% of guys being jerks who think they're entitled to have women pay attention to them, smile at them, talk to them, and let them touch them for those kinds of experiences to pervade women's lives. You shouldn't feel painted by the brush unless you identify with that behavior.
tbright1965 saidLet's unpack this, you suggest that someone shouldn't feel something.
Okay, so if someone said you shouldn't feel threatened when the bad man looks at you, are you okay with that?
I just want to know the standard. Who gets to decide what someone should or shouldn't feel?
Is it not okay for men to tell women what they should or shouldn't feel "Come on, smile for me..."
But it's okay for women to tell men what they should or shouldn't feel, "You shouldn't feel painted..."
You see, from my perspective, those are exactly the same thing. The words are different, but the pattern is the same. Someone projecting upon another what they should really be feeling. Invalidating what they are feeling or experiencing and replacing it with what the speaker has decided they should feel.
So what's the standard here?
May I request that it be consistent and evenly applied?
And then I saidThat's either saying that unwanted touching is OK or pretending it doesn't exist. Sweeping it under the rug. Ignoring the fact that it happens. It's just about being told to "feel something," not about being told what to do ("smile") and being told that you're uptight if you object to someone putting their hand on your shoulder or your waist or wherever it goes next.
And then lemurcat2 saidQuotes are messed up, but I really don't get how you get that from what tbright said.
The charitable thing would be to ask him if that's what he meant.
Yeah, when I saw they were messed up it wouldn't let me edit it. I think I've fixed them here.*
I said something. Then someone said nobody is talking about that. His response to my saying it was to ignore it. He even quoted just that portion I've quoted here in the second quote block (but without the bolding I added because apparently it was in invisible pixels nobody could read) and still insisted nobody was talking about that.
I make an effort in almost every interaction I have with people to assume the best when it comes to their intentions.
But I have been around the block too many times with the rhetorical device represented by "not all men" and "all lives matter" to be willing to always be the one in the conversation making the effort to be "charitable" when someone is trying to derail that conversation to undercut the people explaining the reality they live in and instead make the conversation about themselves.
*well, I didn't fix them the first try here. Trying again, but I'm killing the auto attribution as I'm afraid that has gotten messed up, and I don't want to misattribute something by mistake.7 -
The conversation about gyms was derailed way upthread.8
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I was very specific where I commented on the part about men shouldn’t feel ....
I made no comment about the touching part of the post.
I thought it was obvious the touching was wrong and didn’t say anything.
I should have been more clear.
One can be critical of ONE part of a post without invalidating the entire post.
Perhaps this is the disconnect here.
Thoughts?10 -
Identity politics makes everything awesome.13
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Last week a man who was old enough to be my grandfather watched me doing hip thrusts and said in a really creepy way.
"Well done girl. Are you feeling the burn?"
I almost threw up a bit!7
This discussion has been closed.
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