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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »@fitfamilyguy I'm really having trouble understanding your post or what your point is at this point. But I'll go back to my original post - being able to vet sources. "Science" isn't defined by one study, or the most recent study. It is constantly doubling back, taking one study which leads to several other studies, which lead to dozens of studies, continuing to drill down, pin down variables, correct inaccurate assumptions. THAT is the scientific method. The problem is the average consumer isn't educated enough about the scientific method, and so when their trainer shows them a study that "proves" that his diet or workout program is the best, they think they should believe it because "science". The best charlatans are the ones that can misuse science and confuse their marks.
I have talked to far too many bodybuilders/trainers who looked amazing and didn't know *kitten* about biology or science to assume that someone with a great physique would give good advice. Said that I should eat 1200 cals, or I had to IF to maximize fat loss, or I had to use little pink weights because I was a girl, or I had to use the fat burners that they could give me a discount on. Sorry.
Fair enough. I liked your "*kitten*" comment. Funny.
Again, nothing is perfect. The bodybuilder in your example is likely doing something right but again nothing is perfect. I wouldn't follow that guy either. But the other side of that is the intellectual that can't figure out why their science based approach to fitness won't get them the fit body they constantly work on. I've met plenty of them too. Again, I think it comes down to multiple ways of learning. No need to apologize. Were you insulting me?
I've been following this thread but I haven't jumped in yet. I think the fundamental difference you're missing here is that on the science side of things, the idea isn't to take advice from the scientist. The idea is to take the science from a conglomeration of scientists and then use it to apply to your own situation.
If a guy at the gym tells me I can't eat carbs after 7 and I need to do a ton of cardio and eat salad and boiled cod all day to lose weight, and then it doesn't work for whatever reason, I don't have the information I need to troubleshoot why it isn't working. I can go back to the bro, but he likely won't know. I can find a different person to ask. I can flounder or give up. I can bounce from plan to plan. But I don't have the tools I need to get into the right groove unless I get there by accident. And then I won't be able to adjust as I go, anyway.
If instead I learn that meal timing doesn't amount to a large percentage of weight loss, cardio can increase a deficit but isn't required, and salad and cod just happen to be low calorie/high protein foods, and that calories lead to weight loss, then I have knowledge. I don't have someone else's plan. I don't have what some reporter put in a magazine about what they think a study says. I can build the plan that works for me. I can take the pieces of advice I like and throw the rest away. I can tweak. I can troubleshoot. I can adjust things. And I don't have to bounce from plan to plan unsure of what's going on in my own body. The knowledge gives me control over what's happening.
There are absolutely confused people in the world. I just think some of the people in this thread differ on how best to help them. Whether it's best to give them a plan that might work or to give them the knowledge to make their own plan.
Very well said! There is a reason you have.... 14,564 comments under your belt. Perhaps I should pay more attention to what you say because you have done something earn my attention. Your not a scientist are you? You don't have to be, you think clearly. You have logical ideas. I'm not a scientist but I can tell that with my common sense. I agree that good advice and leadership should come from a foundation understanding. I think this is part of the filtering process. However, I think another part of the issue in the threat is that threshold. It seems to me that some people seem to think that unless Dr. is attached to your name or your part of a very big corporation, the words from a fit person on not even worth considering. I agree that the "hey look what I have been able to do" is only the marketing so to speak. I don't mean marketing literally but rather a starting point to say that now that you see some proof, I may have some more credibility that I'm onto something and you can find out for yourself over time. The "hey look what I have been able to do" may end up being full of very, very wise and helpful information. That same guy may end up being full of BS. Who knows. Personally, I'm willing to learn from others as they probably have a combination of practical advice and advice based on science and it is my job to determine what I do and do not value. I've never really heard people argue so hard against the concept of learning from successful people. It is very strange to me. To be honest, it almost starts to feel like a way of controlling information and shutting downs others ability to share than actually offering a variety of solutions to help people. But again, I really do think you made a lot of darn good sense. Thanks.
The point you continue to miss is that the reason the people are experiencing success is because they are doing the things that have proven (by science) to be successful.
The science IS the information of value.
And that can be regardless if they know they are or not
I am sorry if I have not addressed this specific comment because I do get the point and felt it was answered in other posts. I wrote along these lines to someone else but I think it applies here:
I don't need a science experiment to tell me how a fire should happen but I can watch someone make a fire, learn from it and do it myself. The point is that learning from others success is a great way to learn and the results are often fantastic! In this case, the fire burning is the end goal and science can prove that but it didn't have to. I do see your point but we are just not aligning on some finer points. I love and agree with the scientific method but I see huge value in combining my scientific understanding with learning from others real world experiences and results.
If the method for how fire happens is in doubt, observing someone making a fire, noting their method, and applying it yourself to see if it works the same way is a type of scientific experiment.
I think we keep coming back to the point that you don't seem to know exactly what you're critiquing when you criticize the scientific method.
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L1zardQueen wrote: »Lets talk about your strategies. What are they?
I’m sorry that I am quoting myself. Is my question not worthy?4 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Lets talk about your strategies. What are they?
I’m sorry that I am quoting myself. Is my question not worthy?
You can go onto his website to learn all about them.... I stopped at the home page though, not going any further than that
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FitFamilyGuy wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »I wondered, does the "this is kind of true for me, and this is kind of true for science" apply to other things beyond nutrition, maybe even beyond biology?
Like, can it be kind of true for me that the diversity of species is explained by a magic unicorn that taps its horn to force snakes to turn into rabbits when rabbits have never existed, but also kind of true that evolution explains biodiversity for science?
Can it be true for me that stars are really just fireflies that have flown really high, but also true for science that they are the result of accumulated hydrogen, helium, and other trace elements that collapse under gravity with enough pressure and heat to cause fusion into higher elements?
No, "true for me" over science is not good way to look at things. I agree with your stance that proven facts are proven facts. But, "true for me" and "true for you" and "true for someone doing well" can be a great way to learn and reach a goal. I don't need a science experiment to tell me how a fire should happen but I can watch someone make a fire, learn from it and do it myself. I do see your point but we are just not aligning on some finer points.
So it can be true for you that fire works because you do the fire making ritual someone taught you, and also true for science that fire works because of oxidative reactions releasing energy from electrons achieving a lower energy configuration via new bonds forming?
It seems to me that in those senses, there aren't two truths. To the extent the fire ritualizer has truth, science does too. The problems is that the ritualizer has acquired additional false beliefs that science discards. That's probably the greater part of science than what it learns - the falsification ability that less one keep from acquiring false beliefs. "It isn't what you don't know, but what you know that ain't so that kills ya" was I think the Buck Rogers version of that.
That's also precisely why one should favor science over personally acquired "truths". A personally acquired "truth" lacks an ability to be removed reliably, it seems.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »The "we" in this thread will be quick to list off all of the reasons why real world results form individuals is a problem so I don't need to do that here. They exist. I get it. There are problems learning from one guys results.
These reasons have been outlined multiple times for you and yet you continue to propose that it is optimal to get our information from these individuals.
Can you list off any of these reasons?FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Now, forget about "fit guy". What about a bodybuilder? Can't we look at what a bodybuilder generally does, recognize that they are pretty darn good at building muscle and burning fat and learn from that? You don't have to want to be a bodybuilder to learn from the principles and apply some or all of them to replicate some results. You can also talk to one bodybuilder to find out what he does and then learn from that.
Following your answer to the above, can you apply all those reasons to why “we” really don’t hold value on this as a research method?
Perhaps this is the issue.
You possibly feel that I am trying to provide a new way to do science. I don't think that at all.
I believe in taking a balanced approach to learning for an individual like me or someone else. I am talking about learning on an individual level and finding a way to cut through the noise and confusion. As said many times part of that is learning from others and science.
What does it mean to "learn on an individual level"?
One of the reasons why I think you're getting pushback is that what you're advising -- at least to my reading -- seems to be so vague.
Of course my friend. Some specifics are not allowed. I can't condense my theories onto a paragraph because there is often too much to cover and often I would be accused of self promotion, I'd be censored and banned. This post is more about a general philosophies. I mentioned this before, as open as a forum is, there are governing bodies that limit and control how the information flows. I get why this happens but it is still a reality. I do sometimes wonder how many times I answer to an actual user versus a moderators account. That is part of life online.
Why would you be accused of self-promotion?
I could tell you exact details about my plan and never be accused of self-promotion because I have nothing to promote. Are you telling me that your advice is reliant on purchasing something from you or following you on another social media site? If so, I think we're quite right to be skeptical because people who are telling you that they've found THE WAY for weight management/fitness and they're willing to tell you if you only pay this/follow this . . . well, they're not exactly great sources usually.
(You can tell when you're responding to an actual user because moderators have it noted under their user name).
Sorry janejellyroll, I thought I found and replied to everyone asking for my program details. I was only holding back because at the start of the thread I was being accused of wanting questions and I tried to clarify that I was not trying to get personal questions. I also didn't see how it was relevant and I didn't know where to start to make it fit into context.
I don't have a magic trick to keep to myself. I was really trying not to talk about me and my strategies, I was trying to stay on topic. To answer your question and many others about what I do:
I primarily lift weights to build muscle and I control my nutrition to stay lean. I try to focus on what I call "fat loss" over "weight loss". I really believe in scientific principles like progressive overload. I have loved to get strong from the time I was 15 years old until now at 41. As an old guy I can now lift more weights than when I was 21 in most exercises.... is this answering the question and interest in my what I do? I have never used a performance enhancing drug and I am not big into supplements. I think supplementing a good diet with protein can help and I take a multivitamin for general health. I use various rep ranges but at the start of my workout I usually start heavy and take good sized rests between my sets. I don't have particularly long workouts and with a lot of warm ups sets and rest between sets I don't think I spend a whole lot of time actually doing working sets. Over the years I have used portion control or simply conscious eating decisions to stay lean and in recent years I found the power of counting calories. When I count calories, I have a lot of flexibility in my diet and I don't say "no" to anything I really want. However, for general health I do make smart eating decisions and if I want something bad enough I enjoy it and eat it.
(This is not advice for anyone.)
Is this sufficient? Should I keep going, is it too much?4 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »@fitfamilyguy I'm really having trouble understanding your post or what your point is at this point. But I'll go back to my original post - being able to vet sources. "Science" isn't defined by one study, or the most recent study. It is constantly doubling back, taking one study which leads to several other studies, which lead to dozens of studies, continuing to drill down, pin down variables, correct inaccurate assumptions. THAT is the scientific method. The problem is the average consumer isn't educated enough about the scientific method, and so when their trainer shows them a study that "proves" that his diet or workout program is the best, they think they should believe it because "science". The best charlatans are the ones that can misuse science and confuse their marks.
I have talked to far too many bodybuilders/trainers who looked amazing and didn't know *kitten* about biology or science to assume that someone with a great physique would give good advice. Said that I should eat 1200 cals, or I had to IF to maximize fat loss, or I had to use little pink weights because I was a girl, or I had to use the fat burners that they could give me a discount on. Sorry.
Fair enough. I liked your "*kitten*" comment. Funny.
Again, nothing is perfect. The bodybuilder in your example is likely doing something right but again nothing is perfect. I wouldn't follow that guy either. But the other side of that is the intellectual that can't figure out why their science based approach to fitness won't get them the fit body they constantly work on. I've met plenty of them too. Again, I think it comes down to multiple ways of learning. No need to apologize. Were you insulting me?
I've been following this thread but I haven't jumped in yet. I think the fundamental difference you're missing here is that on the science side of things, the idea isn't to take advice from the scientist. The idea is to take the science from a conglomeration of scientists and then use it to apply to your own situation.
If a guy at the gym tells me I can't eat carbs after 7 and I need to do a ton of cardio and eat salad and boiled cod all day to lose weight, and then it doesn't work for whatever reason, I don't have the information I need to troubleshoot why it isn't working. I can go back to the bro, but he likely won't know. I can find a different person to ask. I can flounder or give up. I can bounce from plan to plan. But I don't have the tools I need to get into the right groove unless I get there by accident. And then I won't be able to adjust as I go, anyway.
If instead I learn that meal timing doesn't amount to a large percentage of weight loss, cardio can increase a deficit but isn't required, and salad and cod just happen to be low calorie/high protein foods, and that calories lead to weight loss, then I have knowledge. I don't have someone else's plan. I don't have what some reporter put in a magazine about what they think a study says. I can build the plan that works for me. I can take the pieces of advice I like and throw the rest away. I can tweak. I can troubleshoot. I can adjust things. And I don't have to bounce from plan to plan unsure of what's going on in my own body. The knowledge gives me control over what's happening.
There are absolutely confused people in the world. I just think some of the people in this thread differ on how best to help them. Whether it's best to give them a plan that might work or to give them the knowledge to make their own plan.
Very well said! There is a reason you have.... 14,564 comments under your belt. Perhaps I should pay more attention to what you say because you have done something earn my attention. Your not a scientist are you? You don't have to be, you think clearly. You have logical ideas. I'm not a scientist but I can tell that with my common sense. I agree that good advice and leadership should come from a foundation understanding. I think this is part of the filtering process. However, I think another part of the issue in the threat is that threshold. It seems to me that some people seem to think that unless Dr. is attached to your name or your part of a very big corporation, the words from a fit person on not even worth considering. I agree that the "hey look what I have been able to do" is only the marketing so to speak. I don't mean marketing literally but rather a starting point to say that now that you see some proof, I may have some more credibility that I'm onto something and you can find out for yourself over time. The "hey look what I have been able to do" may end up being full of very, very wise and helpful information. That same guy may end up being full of BS. Who knows. Personally, I'm willing to learn from others as they probably have a combination of practical advice and advice based on science and it is my job to determine what I do and do not value. I've never really heard people argue so hard against the concept of learning from successful people. It is very strange to me. To be honest, it almost starts to feel like a way of controlling information and shutting downs others ability to share than actually offering a variety of solutions to help people. But again, I really do think you made a lot of darn good sense. Thanks.
The point you continue to miss is that the reason the people are experiencing success is because they are doing the things that have proven (by science) to be successful.
The science IS the information of value.
And that can be regardless if they know they are or not
I am sorry if I have not addressed this specific comment because I do get the point and felt it was answered in other posts. I wrote along these lines to someone else but I think it applies here:
I don't need a science experiment to tell me how a fire should happen but I can watch someone make a fire, learn from it and do it myself. The point is that learning from others success is a great way to learn and the results are often fantastic! In this case, the fire burning is the end goal and science can prove that but it didn't have to. I do see your point but we are just not aligning on some finer points. I love and agree with the scientific method but I see huge value in combining my scientific understanding with learning from others real world experiences and results.
You actually haven’t addressed this comment yet at all-despite that it’s been brought up since page 1.
In your fire example-I watch someone build a fire. He dances around (unnecesary), he hunts for wood that is near a moss covered rock (unnecessary), he only uses leaves with 4 points (unnecesary), he doesn’t place fuel near the kindling (inefficient), he strikes flint and steel (the only part of this observed process that actually matters).
Does he create fire? Sure. Does he do a lot of extraneous nonsense? Yep. Is he doing things to build the best possible fire given the circumstances? Nope.
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L1zardQueen wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Lets talk about your strategies. What are they?
I’m sorry that I am quoting myself. Is my question not worthy?
Your question is worthy my friend. I finally got around to posting something.Sorry janejellyroll, I thought I found and replied to everyone asking for my program details. I was only holding back because at the start of the thread I was being accused of wanting questions and I tried to clarify that I was not trying to get personal questions. I also didn't see how it was relevant and I didn't know where to start to make it fit into context.
I don't have a magic trick to keep to myself. I was really trying not to talk about me and my strategies, I was trying to stay on topic. To answer your question and many others about what I do:
I primarily lift weights to build muscle and I control my nutrition to stay lean. I try to focus on what I call "fat loss" over "weight loss". I really believe in scientific principles like progressive overload. I have loved to get strong from the time I was 15 years old until now at 41. As an old guy I can now lift more weights than when I was 21 in most exercises.... is this answering the question and interest in my what I do? I have never used a performance enhancing drug and I am not big into supplements. I think supplementing a good diet with protein can help and I take a multivitamin for general health. I use various rep ranges but at the start of my workout I usually start heavy and take good sized rests between my sets. I don't have particularly long workouts and with a lot of warm ups sets and rest between sets I don't think I spend a whole of time actually doing working sets. Over the years I have used portion control or simply conscious eating decisions to stay lean and in recent years I found the power of counting calories. When I count calories, I have a lot of flexibility in my diet and I don't say "no" to anything I really want. However, for general health I do make smart eating decisions and if I want something bad enough I enjoy it and eat it.
(This is not advice for anyone.)
Is this sufficient? Should I keep going, is it too much?2 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible. 6 -
So nothing earth shattering. Gotcha. Elementary and solid advice.
Watch your calorie intake.
Fuel your workouts.
Eat the foods you enjoy.
Exercise to look good nekkie.
Did I get it right?2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »I wondered, does the "this is kind of true for me, and this is kind of true for science" apply to other things beyond nutrition, maybe even beyond biology?
Like, can it be kind of true for me that the diversity of species is explained by a magic unicorn that taps its horn to force snakes to turn into rabbits when rabbits have never existed, but also kind of true that evolution explains biodiversity for science?
Can it be true for me that stars are really just fireflies that have flown really high, but also true for science that they are the result of accumulated hydrogen, helium, and other trace elements that collapse under gravity with enough pressure and heat to cause fusion into higher elements?
No, "true for me" over science is not good way to look at things. I agree with your stance that proven facts are proven facts. But, "true for me" and "true for you" and "true for someone doing well" can be a great way to learn and reach a goal. I don't need a science experiment to tell me how a fire should happen but I can watch someone make a fire, learn from it and do it myself. I do see your point but we are just not aligning on some finer points.
So it can be true for you that fire works because you do the fire making ritual someone taught you, and also true for science that fire works because of oxidative reactions releasing energy from electrons achieving a lower energy configuration via new bonds forming?
It seems to me that in those senses, there aren't two truths. To the extent the fire ritualizer has truth, science does too. The problems is that the ritualizer has acquired additional false beliefs that science discards. That's probably the greater part of science than what it learns - the falsification ability that less one keep from acquiring false beliefs. "It isn't what you don't know, but what you know that ain't so that kills ya" was I think the Buck Rogers version of that.
That's also precisely why one should favor science over personally acquired "truths". A personally acquired "truth" lacks an ability to be removed reliably, it seems.
I hear ya! Haha. You make very valid points.
I have made a fairly reasonable list of potential flaws solely using science to get to an end goal. As much as I love science, use it, agree with it, benefit from it... again, not to be taken out of context, I love science and I see flaws when only applying science alone, to an objective such as a fitness goal.
In this example, let's consider the countless, countless studies about the items at the start of the post. A lot of individual variables like Keto, Cardio, Weights etc. etc. have been studied. However, taking ten of those studied variables and using them as a combination probably has not been studied. Putting every combination and small part together to get an end result is probably going to take a very, very long time to ever happen simply because of the complexity of studying every possible combination. Should we wait for the results before we try them ourselves. Should we not look at other successful people to learn from their success as they may have found a shortcut to what science may determine later?
Luckily the caveman didn't agree to stop making fire until they could prove why it was happening.
Again, this is just one more example about a balanced science and real world approach to learning. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both.1 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »The "we" in this thread will be quick to list off all of the reasons why real world results form individuals is a problem so I don't need to do that here. They exist. I get it. There are problems learning from one guys results.
These reasons have been outlined multiple times for you and yet you continue to propose that it is optimal to get our information from these individuals.
Can you list off any of these reasons?FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
Now, forget about "fit guy". What about a bodybuilder? Can't we look at what a bodybuilder generally does, recognize that they are pretty darn good at building muscle and burning fat and learn from that? You don't have to want to be a bodybuilder to learn from the principles and apply some or all of them to replicate some results. You can also talk to one bodybuilder to find out what he does and then learn from that.
Following your answer to the above, can you apply all those reasons to why “we” really don’t hold value on this as a research method?
Perhaps this is the issue.
You possibly feel that I am trying to provide a new way to do science. I don't think that at all.
I believe in taking a balanced approach to learning for an individual like me or someone else. I am talking about learning on an individual level and finding a way to cut through the noise and confusion. As said many times part of that is learning from others and science.
What does it mean to "learn on an individual level"?
One of the reasons why I think you're getting pushback is that what you're advising -- at least to my reading -- seems to be so vague.
Of course my friend. Some specifics are not allowed. I can't condense my theories onto a paragraph because there is often too much to cover and often I would be accused of self promotion, I'd be censored and banned. This post is more about a general philosophies. I mentioned this before, as open as a forum is, there are governing bodies that limit and control how the information flows. I get why this happens but it is still a reality. I do sometimes wonder how many times I answer to an actual user versus a moderators account. That is part of life online.
Why would you be accused of self-promotion?
I could tell you exact details about my plan and never be accused of self-promotion because I have nothing to promote. Are you telling me that your advice is reliant on purchasing something from you or following you on another social media site? If so, I think we're quite right to be skeptical because people who are telling you that they've found THE WAY for weight management/fitness and they're willing to tell you if you only pay this/follow this . . . well, they're not exactly great sources usually.
(You can tell when you're responding to an actual user because moderators have it noted under their user name).
Sorry janejellyroll, I thought I found and replied to everyone asking for my program details. I was only holding back because at the start of the thread I was being accused of wanting questions and I tried to clarify that I was not trying to get personal questions. I also didn't see how it was relevant and I didn't know where to start to make it fit into context.
I don't have a magic trick to keep to myself. I was really trying not to talk about me and my strategies, I was trying to stay on topic. To answer your question and many others about what I do:
I primarily lift weights to build muscle and I control my nutrition to stay lean. I try to focus on what I call "fat loss" over "weight loss". I really believe in scientific principles like progressive overload. I have loved to get strong from the time I was 15 years old until now at 41. As an old guy I can now lift more weights than when I was 21 in most exercises.... is this answering the question and interest in my what I do? I have never used a performance enhancing drug and I am not big into supplements. I think supplementing a good diet with protein can help and I take a multivitamin for general health. I use various rep ranges but at the start of my workout I usually start heavy and take good sized rests between my sets. I don't have particularly long workouts and with a lot of warm ups sets and rest between sets I don't think I spend a whole of time actually doing working sets. Over the years I have used portion control or simply conscious eating decisions to stay lean and in recent years I found the power of counting calories. When I count calories, I have a lot of flexibility in my diet and I don't say "no" to anything I really want. However, for general health I do make smart eating decisions and if I want something bad enough I enjoy it and eat it.
(This is not advice for anyone.)
Is this sufficient? Should I keep going, is it too much?
I don't understand why you think sharing these strategies would put you at risk of being accused of self-promotion. If you just weren't sure of the tenor of this particular discussion board, it's relatively common for people to share strategies that have worked for them personally and research they find interesting. Self-promotion is only a concern when people are attempting to sell items/information or drive interest in their postings on another website.5 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day. 0 -
...
I primarily lift weights to build muscle and I control my nutrition to stay lean. I try to focus on what I call "fat loss" over "weight loss". I really believe in scientific principles like progressive overload. I have loved to get strong from the time I was 15 years old until now at 41. As an old guy I can now lift more weights than when I was 21 in most exercises.... is this answering the question and interest in my what I do? I have never used a performance enhancing drug and I am not big into supplements. I think supplementing a good diet with protein can help and I take a multivitamin for general health. I use various rep ranges but at the start of my workout I usually start heavy and take good sized rests between my sets. I don't have particularly long workouts and with a lot of warm ups sets and rest between sets I don't think I spend a whole lot of time actually doing working sets. Over the years I have used portion control or simply conscious eating decisions to stay lean and in recent years I found the power of counting calories. When I count calories, I have a lot of flexibility in my diet and I don't say "no" to anything I really want. However, for general health I do make smart eating decisions and if I want something bad enough I enjoy it and eat it.
(This is not advice for anyone.)
Is this sufficient? Should I keep going, is it too much?
Very similar to what I do, though I am 40 next month and didn't start lifting until I was 160 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.12 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.
Fair enough but I don't agree with your assessment of my original intent. I literally think this to myself and discuss it with friends and family. Confusion in the area seems like a real problem for people. I really have never meant to discredit science at all... ever. Not at the start of this thread or at an point in my life ever. It has been really hard to shake this comment that and I go on and on trying to clarify that I believe and support science. I get that suggesting that way of think will make a person seem like an extremist but come on.... I'm a level headed person who has never made a statement like that. Honestly, I really think that the discussion about confusion and learning about fitness is a valid point and aside from distracting side conversations, I think interesting points get raised. The point that learning by the example of others in combination of research and science is a very valid and reasonable argument. In my opinion. Have a great day. 3 -
...
I primarily lift weights to build muscle and I control my nutrition to stay lean. I try to focus on what I call "fat loss" over "weight loss". I really believe in scientific principles like progressive overload. I have loved to get strong from the time I was 15 years old until now at 41. As an old guy I can now lift more weights than when I was 21 in most exercises.... is this answering the question and interest in my what I do? I have never used a performance enhancing drug and I am not big into supplements. I think supplementing a good diet with protein can help and I take a multivitamin for general health. I use various rep ranges but at the start of my workout I usually start heavy and take good sized rests between my sets. I don't have particularly long workouts and with a lot of warm ups sets and rest between sets I don't think I spend a whole lot of time actually doing working sets. Over the years I have used portion control or simply conscious eating decisions to stay lean and in recent years I found the power of counting calories. When I count calories, I have a lot of flexibility in my diet and I don't say "no" to anything I really want. However, for general health I do make smart eating decisions and if I want something bad enough I enjoy it and eat it.
(This is not advice for anyone.)
Is this sufficient? Should I keep going, is it too much?
Very similar to what I do, though I am 40 next month and didn't start lifting until I was 16
Very cool! Good for you! We are kind of peers through the world wide web. Keep up the good work! 0 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.
Fair enough but I don't agree with your assessment of my original intent. I literally think this to myself and discuss it with friends and family. Confusion in the area seems like a real problem for people. I really have never meant to discredit science at all... ever. Not at the start of this thread or at an point in my life ever. It has been really hard to shake this comment that and I go on and on trying to clarify that I believe and support science. I get that suggesting that way of think will make a person seem like an extremist but come on.... I'm a level headed person who has never made a statement like that. Honestly, I really think that the discussion about confusion and learning about fitness is a valid point and aside from distracting side conversations, I think interesting points get raised. The point that learning by the example of others in combination of research and science is a very valid and reasonable argument. In my opinion. Have a great day.
If the bolded is what you would have said originally there probably wouldn't have been as much pushback as there was. The problem is, the way you phrased it, you made it sound like it had to be one or the other. In that context, I will take proven science over an individuals personal experience every time. A person can have results without completely understanding what produced those results. That is very obvious in the keto thread where a person gave their personal experience with keto and told the calorie counters they needed to educate themselves. In that person's mind they lost weight because of the absence of carbs, when in reality they lost weight because of the absence of additional calories. Science has proved that to be true, yet that one individual still doesn't clearly understand what led to their success. This is why it is incredibly important to do research and not just blindly accept what another person is saying. Not only that, but people's goals vary so much, that one persons experience might not be relevant to anothers. Over the last three years I have cut, bulked, and recomped at different points and before each phase I made sure to properly research what I needed to do so I could find success. I can value another person's experience to an extent, but because nobody out there has the exact same goals as I do, its important to rely on what is proven and not what someone else is telling me to be true.11 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.
Fair enough but I don't agree with your assessment of my original intent. I literally think this to myself and discuss it with friends and family. Confusion in the area seems like a real problem for people. I really have never meant to discredit science at all... ever. Not at the start of this thread or at an point in my life ever. It has been really hard to shake this comment that and I go on and on trying to clarify that I believe and support science. I get that suggesting that way of think will make a person seem like an extremist but come on.... I'm a level headed person who has never made a statement like that. Honestly, I really think that the discussion about confusion and learning about fitness is a valid point and aside from distracting side conversations, I think interesting points get raised. The point that learning by the example of others in combination of research and science is a very valid and reasonable argument. In my opinion. Have a great day.
If the bolded is what you would have said originally there probably wouldn't have been as much pushback as there was. The problem is, the way you phrased it, you made it sound like it had to be one or the other. In that context, I will take proven science over an individuals personal experience every time. A person can have results without completely understanding what produced those results. That is very obvious in the keto thread where a person gave their personal experience with keto and told the calorie counters they needed to educate themselves. In that person's mind they lost weight because of the absence of carbs, when in reality they lost weight because of the absence of additional calories. Science has proved that to be true, yet that one individual still doesn't clearly understand what led to their success. This is why it is incredibly important to do research and not just blindly accept what another person is saying. Not only that, but people's goals vary so much, that one persons experience might not be relevant to anothers. Over the last three years I have cut, bulked, and recomped at different points and before each phase I made sure to properly research what I needed to do so I could find success. I can value another person's experience to an extent, but because nobody out there has the exact same goals as I do, its important to rely on what is proven and not what someone else is telling me to be true.
You make a lot of sense and I agree that the original post could probably be improved. I would say that I wasn't thinking in terms of, black or white', 'one or the other' at all. In fact, very early on in the thread this was brought up and I tried very, very hard to make the argument that a blended grey area was the best approach to learning. To be honest I felt the "we all" group was being quite extreme. But I did my best to stay with point of view that a balanced approach to learning was a very good way to learn.
I also get your point about topics discussed in the Keto chain. I notice that a lot when talking about keto and other diets. Again, I don't think anyone should blindly follow one scientic report just as they should not blindly follow one individual. I think people can learn from other successful people because of their success, their experiences, their knowledge of science, their knowledge gained from other successful people etc. Too assume all successful people have no clue how they have done what they have done and is cluless sounds kind of silly to me. Of course research, self education, considering ones motivation, considering how they express themselves, the knowledge they share etc. Is all a part of learning... At least I think. As mentioned countless times there are flaws with both approaches. I am personally open minded and willing to consider as many sources of information to me as possible. I don't understand the labeling people of 'woo', 'bro' and push to write off, completely ignore or silence others ideas that may just contribute to ones success. I've explained this countless ways and countless times even near the start of the thread and I don't think it is extreme or even controversial. Haha! Anyway, I appreciate you thoughts. I think in this exchange here, we are certainly closer than farther appart. Have a great day. 0 -
FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.
Fair enough but I don't agree with your assessment of my original intent. I literally think this to myself and discuss it with friends and family. Confusion in the area seems like a real problem for people. I really have never meant to discredit science at all... ever. Not at the start of this thread or at an point in my life ever. It has been really hard to shake this comment that and I go on and on trying to clarify that I believe and support science. I get that suggesting that way of think will make a person seem like an extremist but come on.... I'm a level headed person who has never made a statement like that. Honestly, I really think that the discussion about confusion and learning about fitness is a valid point and aside from distracting side conversations, I think interesting points get raised. The point that learning by the example of others in combination of research and science is a very valid and reasonable argument. In my opinion. Have a great day.
If the bolded is what you would have said originally there probably wouldn't have been as much pushback as there was. The problem is, the way you phrased it, you made it sound like it had to be one or the other. In that context, I will take proven science over an individuals personal experience every time. A person can have results without completely understanding what produced those results. That is very obvious in the keto thread where a person gave their personal experience with keto and told the calorie counters they needed to educate themselves. In that person's mind they lost weight because of the absence of carbs, when in reality they lost weight because of the absence of additional calories. Science has proved that to be true, yet that one individual still doesn't clearly understand what led to their success. This is why it is incredibly important to do research and not just blindly accept what another person is saying. Not only that, but people's goals vary so much, that one persons experience might not be relevant to anothers. Over the last three years I have cut, bulked, and recomped at different points and before each phase I made sure to properly research what I needed to do so I could find success. I can value another person's experience to an extent, but because nobody out there has the exact same goals as I do, its important to rely on what is proven and not what someone else is telling me to be true.
You make a lot of sense and I agree that bethe original post could probably be improved. I would say that I wasn't thinking in terms of ,black and white', 'one or the other' at all. In fact, very early on in the thread this was brought up and I tried very, very hard to make the argument that a blended grey area was the best approach to learning. To be honest I felt the "we all" group was being quite extreme. But I did my best to stay with point of view that a balanced approach to learning was a very good way to learn.
I also get your point about topics discussed in the Keto chain. I notice that a lot when talking about keto and other diets. Again, I don't think anyone should blindly follow one scientic report just as they should not blindly follow one individual. I think people can learn from other successful people because of their success, their experiences, their knowledge of science, their knowledge gained from other successful people etc. Too assume all successful people have no clue how they have done what they have done and is cluless sounds kind of silly to me. Of course research, self education, considering ones motivation, considering how they express themselves, the knowledge they share etc. Is all a part of learning... At least I think. As mentioned countless times there are flaws with both approaches. I am personally open minded and willing to consider as many sources of information to me as possible. I don't understand the push to write off, completely ignore or silence others ideas that may just contribute to ones success. I've explained this countless ways and countless times even near the start of the thread and I don't think it is extreme or even controversial. Haha! Anyway, I appreciate you thoughts. I think in this exchange here, we are certainly closer than farther appart. Have a great day.
Were you somehow under the impression that the scientific processes itself advocates truth based on single studies?8 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »FitFamilyGuy wrote: »Bullying... like in the real world this does not apply to everyone but it applies none the less.
a) The original comment is a thoughtful and innocent post. I don't see any negativity there.
b) Some directed questions to or about me specifically. I tried to answered them and then was belittled for making the post about me. (discrediting and bullying)
c) Some said things like "we all" as though it was a consensus against my views of balanced learning. (discrediting and bullying)
d) Some grouped together to belittle and push that I was trying to get questions about my methods and I explained that I was not fishing for that. (discrediting and bullying)
e) Some accounts made some less than friendly accusation and quickly supported one another in quotes and agreeance. (discrediting and bullying)
f) Regardless of how trivial or profound the statement the group supports one another with "likes" "insightful", "inspiring" "hugs"... lots of support. If the comment is negative towards me, there seems to be more so of it. (discrediting and bullying)
g) Regardless of the post I make that may or may not be trivial or answers to questions, or something to consider the groups "woo's" or ignores the comment. (discrediting and bullying) (edit... this one can be ignored... the "group" just seems one sided. My woos are through the roof. Statistically, it's kind of impressive.)
h) The group swings to a new angle and went from "we don't want your strategies and don't say them" to "why won't you tell us your strategies and why are your hiding them"? The swing was swift and strong. (discrediting and bullying)
Some of these things on their own are not bullying but the one sided attack and accumulation of the points above are quite clearly a less than friendly and supportive exchange.
I think there is a great deal of kind and thoughtful people here! There are plenty of fantastic exchanges as well! I also think there is an effort by a few people, possibly operating more than one account, maybe not, to bully and discredit my posts and then bury it deep into the archives. Why? I tried to answer all questions at first but it got to be too much so I did my best to keep up.
This is really unfortunate. But don't take my word for it, read the posts and see for yourself. Was I trying to answer the questions? Was I trying to be kind and if I made a mistake did I apologize and try to clarify?
If I upset anyone I really do apologize and want you to know that I do make mistakes and it was not my intent. I welcome debate and I enjoy it too! I think there is a great deal of wonderful, smart, genuine and thoughtful people here. Thank you to them. And still, no hard feelings. Things can always turn around. No hard feelings for anyone.
Is it possible that what you intend to be saying, or think you are saying, is not how you're coming across as others read your posts?
Or, I guess, it could be a conspiracy.
Occam's Razor is a science-related concept.
This thread has gone in some very strange directions.
Evidently, you have some practices that work well for you, from what you've said, and from your profile pic. That's great!
It would be nice if you'd talk about them specifically on this or other threads, as other fitness pros and other kinds of experts who participate on MFP routinely do (without being accused of self promotion, as you seem to fear). That would let us consider whether they might apply to us.
I admit to skepticism of benefit in my personal case. I gather you're a 41-year-old, always-been-fit family man whose main goal seems (?) to be achieving fitness and health efficiently (a great goal, BTW), focused on strength training, and probably an omnivore. I'm a 63-year-old, reasonably fit (for the last 15 years), long obese but now thin (for 4 years), solo-aging female vegetarian who focuses on having fun through being active (mostly as a rower).
I don't see a lot of common objectives, for myself, but there might be for others. So why not share your ideas (here, not via personal site links, because that's where terms of service could apply).
And, to keep it on topic (I guess), I don't feel especially confused about nutrition (mainstream authorities mostly concur) or fitness (I seek out good rowing coaches, and listen to them, albeit critically).
I'm a little confused by this thread, though.
ETA: I see that while I was writing, you did post about your methods. Yay! They seem pretty moderate and sensible.
Haha! Thanks for the insight. I LOVE to share that stuff and have no reason to hold back. I was just keeping from sharing that stuff about me because of the negative pressure earlier in the post. I was trying to stay on topic and not talk about my strategies as the early posts were kind of getting worked up about me trying to get those questions.
Thanks again for your insight and have a nice day.
The negative feedback earlier in this post was definitely warranted. You seemed to want to discredit science in favor of your own personal experience and then were shocked to be called out for it. I believe your original goal when posting this was to tell everyone all about your methods and theories. "Confused? Let me help, I have been doing this 26 years blah blah blah." Seriously, you don't have that many posts overall, but a good percentage of them mention the same tired humblebrag. This whole thread is a dumpster fire, and its kind of sad that it has gone on this long. Yes, some people are confused, and that confusion lies when people make claims that ignore science. People become confused when they are unable to properly vet sources. People become confused because there are a thousand other people out there making fantastic claims all just to make a quick buck.
Fair enough but I don't agree with your assessment of my original intent. I literally think this to myself and discuss it with friends and family. Confusion in the area seems like a real problem for people. I really have never meant to discredit science at all... ever. Not at the start of this thread or at an point in my life ever. It has been really hard to shake this comment that and I go on and on trying to clarify that I believe and support science. I get that suggesting that way of think will make a person seem like an extremist but come on.... I'm a level headed person who has never made a statement like that. Honestly, I really think that the discussion about confusion and learning about fitness is a valid point and aside from distracting side conversations, I think interesting points get raised. The point that learning by the example of others in combination of research and science is a very valid and reasonable argument. In my opinion. Have a great day.
If the bolded is what you would have said originally there probably wouldn't have been as much pushback as there was. The problem is, the way you phrased it, you made it sound like it had to be one or the other. In that context, I will take proven science over an individuals personal experience every time. A person can have results without completely understanding what produced those results. That is very obvious in the keto thread where a person gave their personal experience with keto and told the calorie counters they needed to educate themselves. In that person's mind they lost weight because of the absence of carbs, when in reality they lost weight because of the absence of additional calories. Science has proved that to be true, yet that one individual still doesn't clearly understand what led to their success. This is why it is incredibly important to do research and not just blindly accept what another person is saying. Not only that, but people's goals vary so much, that one persons experience might not be relevant to anothers. Over the last three years I have cut, bulked, and recomped at different points and before each phase I made sure to properly research what I needed to do so I could find success. I can value another person's experience to an extent, but because nobody out there has the exact same goals as I do, its important to rely on what is proven and not what someone else is telling me to be true.
You make a lot of sense and I agree that bethe original post could probably be improved. I would say that I wasn't thinking in terms of ,black and white', 'one or the other' at all. In fact, very early on in the thread this was brought up and I tried very, very hard to make the argument that a blended grey area was the best approach to learning. To be honest I felt the "we all" group was being quite extreme. But I did my best to stay with point of view that a balanced approach to learning was a very good way to learn.
I also get your point about topics discussed in the Keto chain. I notice that a lot when talking about keto and other diets. Again, I don't think anyone should blindly follow one scientic report just as they should not blindly follow one individual. I think people can learn from other successful people because of their success, their experiences, their knowledge of science, their knowledge gained from other successful people etc. Too assume all successful people have no clue how they have done what they have done and is cluless sounds kind of silly to me. Of course research, self education, considering ones motivation, considering how they express themselves, the knowledge they share etc. Is all a part of learning... At least I think. As mentioned countless times there are flaws with both approaches. I am personally open minded and willing to consider as many sources of information to me as possible. I don't understand the push to write off, completely ignore or silence others ideas that may just contribute to ones success. I've explained this countless ways and countless times even near the start of the thread and I don't think it is extreme or even controversial. Haha! Anyway, I appreciate you thoughts. I think in this exchange here, we are certainly closer than farther appart. Have a great day.
Were you somehow under the impression that the scientific processes itself advocates truth based on single studies?
Good question. No of course not. The scientific process, put very simply, is about studies upon studies doing its best to prove and disprove test results... essentially. What a great process! The best!... but not without limitations. In my opinion other methods of learning have strengths and weaknesses too. Personally, I think I learn and do well with my personal fitness goals because I have an open mind. I employ various methods of learning including science, others knowledge and experience as well as my personal experiences. Some think this is an extreme view but I think it is very logical, grounded and the end result is positive. It is tough to argue with results.
Good question though! Have a great day! 2
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