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why do people think you can be healthy at every size?
Replies
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
So given that you're on a weight loss site, what's your own answer?10 -
You can't imagine the answer to this one?Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
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paperpudding wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
It isn't that simple.
I think lots of priorities can prevent someone from focusing on weight loss - working, raising children, caring for relatives etc - ordinary real life just presents many issues and sometimes looking after yourself gets put on the back burner.
That isn't that hard to understand, is it?
To me it honestly sounds like a lot of excuses. How much focus does it take to notice your pants don't fit and eat less? You save more time for other things in your life if you're not eating the extra serving of whatever.13 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
So given that you're on a weight loss site, what's your own answer?
Establish table push aways and fork putdowns as your primary form of exercise. Eating less would take less time allowing people to devote to the priorities mentioned.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
It isn't that simple.
I think lots of priorities can prevent someone from focusing on weight loss - working, raising children, caring for relatives etc - ordinary real life just presents many issues and sometimes looking after yourself gets put on the back burner.
That isn't that hard to understand, is it?
To me it honestly sounds like a lot of excuses. How much focus does it take to notice your pants don't fit and eat less? You save more time for other things in your life if you're not eating the extra serving of whatever.
Fabric stretches and clothes wear out. Most of my skirts have elastic waist bands, but even the fitted ones... I wouldn't go from a size six to a size ten overnight. It's gradual. The fabric would stretch. When the time came to buy new clothes, well, sizing is inconsistent across manufacturers and styles. Right now, of the five skirts I generally wear, one's a medium, one's a six, one's an eight, one's a small, and one's an extra-small. They all fit around the same. So, when I'm buying a new skirt, if it's an eight, can you see how that won't send off alarm bells? Or how even a ten might have me think, "they must be running the sizing smaller this season?" By the time I stop kidding myself, I'm already feeling miserable about my weight and when I'm miserable I'm risking going back into the unhealthy 'using eating to numb stress/anxiety' cycle.12 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »
To me it honestly sounds like a lot of excuses. How much focus does it take to notice your pants don't fit and eat less? You save more time for other things in your life if you're not eating the extra serving of whatever.
What's your excuse for getting to presumably an adult stage in life without figuring out that not everyone has the same life you do? As well as pushing the table away, try pulling your eyelids up and reading about some other perspectives.
Food is comforting (humans are still animals after all), food is a social experience, food portion sizes are designed with an "average" person in mind and not everyone is an average person, some people were never taught to cook for themselves, some people don't have the facilities, money or time and have to use convenience options, some people are misinformed about what it takes to lose weight, some people have histories of disordered eating whether they realize it or not and those habits can be a nightmare to break, some people just don't care what size their bodies are because they have other stuff going on and all these experiences are just as valid as yours.16 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »If you look at the "why did I gain weight" thread, 99 percent of the reasons are due to not being healthy. (Coping mechanisms, eating too much, eating too much high calorie food, being lazy, not being active etc)
If "eating too much" means you aren't healthy, then sure, but that's not a normal definition of what healthy means. People can be healthy and indulge in non-healthy behaviors. One can be healthy (as in their physical condition, test results, absence of illness and medical problems) and fail to wear a seat belt, for example.It seems as though eating too much is a result of UNHEALTHY coping mechanisms or circumstances, thus leading to obesity.
Eating too much will lead to obesity no matter why you overeat, and it's simply not accurate to claim that people only overeat as a result of being already unhealthy. Environment matters and for many people in the current environment one will have to take affirmative steps to avoid overeating.No one comments "I got obese by eating a healthy diet and I didn't have any unhealthy mental issues".
Lots of people get obese (let alone overweight) by eating a diet that is generally healthy but for the overall calories and without any unhealthy mental issues (and I would also dispute whether having some bad coping mechanisms makes you "unhealthy," especially since we are talking about physical health). It's easy and common to overeat a little over the course of a year (or gain some weight during pregnancies) and not really pay that much attention or put off dealing with it because you are focused on other things and then end up at age 40+ being within the obese category.
But in order to get obese you have to eat considerably over your maintenance for a long period of time.
No, you don't. You have to eat slightly over your maintenance for a long period of time. I'm 5'3. The top of the healthy weight range is around 140 lbs, and I'd argue that although I don't look my best (IMO) that being 150 and active isn't actually unhealthy. Obese is 170. It's not that hard to gain 30-40 lbs (even 50 lbs) over a period of years.
Gaining 30-50 pounds over a long period of time is just a case of not giving a *kitten* IMO. There are a lot if telltale signs of weight gain to that extent like clothes not fitting right that are a signal to do something about it.
Yes, indeed. It's not worth trying to understand how weight gain like this happens when instead we can just judge negatively those who get into this situation. Thank you for your contribution to the thread -- it's completely on topic!
What's extra hilarious about your tone deaf comment is that no one, and certainly not me, was giving an excuse for not losing weight. If anything, I was explaining how so many normal people manage to get obese vs. the argument that they just must all have been already unhealthy in some way.
Why people don't immediately figure out a logical way to lose weight once they realize they don't like their current weight is another question, but I suspect most here who have lost weight already have their own answers.10 -
There are worse choices to deal with stress. Personally, I'm not beating myself up ever about putting on weight while I was dealing with bereavement and dealing with the estate or the creditors.Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
Well, speaking personally, I got a little distracted - just a little - when the success of my career seemed to require that I work 10-15 hours a day, 7 days a week, for several months. (I did take one whole day off for my in-laws 50th anniversary party.) My perception is that 30,000+ employees would've been (dangerously) peeved if the payroll system I was replacing didn't work. I guess I should've been thinking about my weight, instead, depite then being the sole support of my household. My bad.
Then there was the "taking care of the dying mother" thing, and the "taking care of the 45-year-old dying husband" thing, and the "cleaning out the house for the dead in-laws" thing, and the "father (of only-child me) who blinded himself in a fall and had to move to assisted living immediately" thing . . . and, oh, yeah, I almost forgot, the "getting cancer and going through a year of surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, and recovery" thing (during which they tell you not to lose weight, BTW), and the basement flood, and the furnace that failed during 15 degree F weather, and the dead father's estate . . . .
I could go on, but I won't.
That's not the whole story, of course. To a certain extent, it's just excuses. It's totally excuses. I made bad choices at many points, and I freely admit it.
Did you not? Good for you.
I didn't have headspace for weighing food, and after I'd spent a day forcing myself to do all the gruelling things associated with organising everything that comes along with a sudden death, my willpower would be too depleted to deny myself chocolate. As far as I'm concerned, I'm proud of myself; I didn't fall into the bottle, like I have seen other people do in similar situations, and I did a lot of stuff I'm proud of afterwards. I know damn well how much effort it took to carry on with the rest of my life and to meet the other commitments, and I know a lot of people would have dropped more balls than I did.
I get emotionally affected by events in my life, and that's okay.
Are you sure you're actually old? I don't know any old people who would think the solution to the kind of major life events we're talking about is to eat a slightly smaller meal to save time.Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
So given that you're on a weight loss site, what's your own answer?
Establish table push aways and fork putdowns as your primary form of exercise. Eating less would take less time allowing people to devote to the priorities mentioned.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »I'm told it originally started as a movement to promote the idea one could be healthIER at every size, and that one could take steps to improve health without losing weight.
Early campaigners identified that a significant number of unfit, overweight/obese people felt unable to lose weight and also felt that if they couldn't lose weight, there was no point doing anything else to improve their health.
I think it is also important for mental health to be kind to yourself, and I personally am more likely to make positive changes if I'm doing it with grace and not beating myself up about it...8 -
I find it interesting how being overweight is seen as a moral failure. How those who judge people who are overweight do it with a hint of superiority. It just amazes me how much society shapes a person's ideas (including mine) and how deep rooted and fact-like they feel. Having a stressful job is seen as a positive thing because success is socially desirable. Having a tan is socially desirable, so not wearing sunscreen is not seen as a moral failure. Staying up late is seen as a personal choice or as an indicator of a fun-loving personality. Not being adequately social is acceptable. Not having a good posture is "meh". Long commutes and pollution heavy cities are an acceptable compromise that doesn't require uprooting your life because what you get out of it feels worth it. Having self discipline is seen as a positive trait, even if it compromises mental or social health. But weight, weight is a moral issue. It's not a valid choice, not a valid result of circumstances, but something that should be shamed. Few "vices" are as stigmatized as weight... (to be clear, I don't think any of the above examples is a vice, just a choice as valid as any other choice)
Amazing that people who do the shaming and judging believe they're morally superior and with such conviction when they're likely doing a whole bunch of other things that are risk factors for something or another. Things are rarely black or white.17 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »If you look at the "why did I gain weight" thread, 99 percent of the reasons are due to not being healthy. (Coping mechanisms, eating too much, eating too much high calorie food, being lazy, not being active etc)
If "eating too much" means you aren't healthy, then sure, but that's not a normal definition of what healthy means. People can be healthy and indulge in non-healthy behaviors. One can be healthy (as in their physical condition, test results, absence of illness and medical problems) and fail to wear a seat belt, for example.It seems as though eating too much is a result of UNHEALTHY coping mechanisms or circumstances, thus leading to obesity.
Eating too much will lead to obesity no matter why you overeat, and it's simply not accurate to claim that people only overeat as a result of being already unhealthy. Environment matters and for many people in the current environment one will have to take affirmative steps to avoid overeating.No one comments "I got obese by eating a healthy diet and I didn't have any unhealthy mental issues".
Lots of people get obese (let alone overweight) by eating a diet that is generally healthy but for the overall calories and without any unhealthy mental issues (and I would also dispute whether having some bad coping mechanisms makes you "unhealthy," especially since we are talking about physical health). It's easy and common to overeat a little over the course of a year (or gain some weight during pregnancies) and not really pay that much attention or put off dealing with it because you are focused on other things and then end up at age 40+ being within the obese category.
But in order to get obese you have to eat considerably over your maintenance for a long period of time.
No, you don't. You have to eat slightly over your maintenance for a long period of time. I'm 5'3. The top of the healthy weight range is around 140 lbs, and I'd argue that although I don't look my best (IMO) that being 150 and active isn't actually unhealthy. Obese is 170. It's not that hard to gain 30-40 lbs (even 50 lbs) over a period of years.
Gaining 30-50 pounds over a long period of time is just a case of not giving a *kitten* IMO. There are a lot if telltale signs of weight gain to that extent like clothes not fitting right that are a signal to do something about it.
The problem with this probably can't be addressed in a couple of paragraphs, but taking into account that even a broken clock...you know the saying...
You're judging a person's heart, mind and emotions by their outward appearance. That tanks your credibility. I can say that because you sound exactly like my dad, who in spite of being a wealth of dietary information died a miserable and painful death, partly due to his gross obesity.
I know nothing I say will change your mind or views, so I wouldn't try, but I will say that I hope you never find yourself in a place where you're being judged and put down for no good, productive reason.
Then again, I guess it's easier to judge than it is to actually get to know someone and offer support. Ain't nobody got time for that 👍10 -
Plus, being overweight is a visible failing that everyone can see and judge you for. Having a stressful job, a dangerous hobby, poor posture at work, failing to get enough sleep, taking drugs, any number of other things have similar or worse health risks; but they're not visible, so it's harder for random people in the street to shame you for them. Being fat is an equal-opportunities bullying-fest.
I say 'bullying' with good reason. Because continually being told you're undisciplined, shameful, unattractive, and generally unworthy is also a health risk. It's funny how the same people who used to chide me about my weight 'for my own good' weren't interested in supporting me during the episodes of depression that actually threatened my life.13 -
The idea that health is really what matters comes in when the activity is seen as not self-punishing enough, perhaps, or indulgence, not toughness.
Get by on 4 hours of sleep regularly, have a stressful job, pull all-nighters, pound out the last 10 miles of a marathon on an injured knee -- toughness. (I used to do all these but the last regularly, and mostly got praise or admiration for it, and even now I have trouble not seeing a virtue in sacrificing self care for such things, not sacrificing sleep first and feeling proud that I don't need to sleep that much, in my mind -- that's kind of messed up, actually.)
No wonder so many people want weight loss to be in that vein too -- eat 900 cal a day, fast for a week, never eat [insert foods you might enjoy here]. Not really consistent with a focus on health as the goal, though.
That aside, I would personally agree that in my own case not losing weight for a period of time was in part that I was confused about what to do and thought it would be harder than it was, feared failure and pity (I felt better pretending to be cool with being fat than letting others know I'd tried to lose and failed or that it bothered me -- I didn't tell anyone when I did decide to lose and tried to hide the fact I was dieting even), and because I did not care as much about it as the other things I was prioritizing (when all your stress and will power is used up on other things it's hard to add more things). I just don't think it's some terrible sin or anyone else's business that I had a period of time between when I decided I was unhappy with my weight and when I decided to lose.
To go back to the actual topic of the thread (which was not "expressing moral superiority over fat people or people who used to be fat"), I was lucky in that I was not heavy when younger and did not have a history of bad and counterproductive efforts at dieting and feeling shame and self-hatred connected with that. As a result, it was not super charged for me to decide to try to lose, although even I expected it likely would not work and so framed it for myself as eating heathfully and getting as fit as possible.
If someone finds a focus on weight loss something that tends to make them less likely to make efforts to be healthier and finds it much easier to focus on other good things (like eating well, exercising more, adding in more vegetables and lean protein and reducing high cal/low nutrient options), why complain that they aren't framing it about weight loss?8 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
@trulyhealy yes today we know typically a health failure proceeds obesity. Underweight to a point may not be unhealthy but we know on average being obese cuts life expectancy by 7 years and morbid obesity by 14 years.7 -
It's not that hard to gain 30-40 lbs (even 50 lbs) over a period of years.
I gained around 30 pounds in my mid-twenties after my dad died, and since I have always been on the smaller side, I justified eating junk and lots of it because I wasn't heavy. I didn't weigh myself back then, and hit the bar more than the gym, living the life of a college kid, and it truly snuck up on me. I lost about half of the weight gained a couple of years later, but didn't get back down to my original weight until after the birth of my first son. I agree that it's easier than you might think to gain.
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And harder to lose the weight afterwards!
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »Just as a hypothetical thought experiment, I decided to run the numbers for an 'average' (5'9") 30 year old male in Scooby's calculator. If he's at a median healthy BMI (22), his weight is 150 and his TDEE at a moderate (3-5 hrs/wk) level is 2592. Supposing his activity drops to 1-3 hrs/wk, his TDEE will drop to 2300.
With that 292 cal/day difference, if his intake stays the same he'll gain slightly faster than .5 lb/wk until his weight reaches the point his maintenance matches his intake, which I estimated at about 185 lbs or a bit over 27 BMI (median overweight range). He'll reach that point in a bit under 70 weeks.
It's easy to factor in portion creep or eating out more to allow for that push him into the obese category, which again does not require any disordered or otherwise unhealthy behaviors or conditions to be present. Just following habit and not deliberately changing their intake to match their activity.
Ideally, should a person be mindful they've put on weight and course correct? Absolutely! But people often have other priorities going on in their lives and coast on their habits until they get a jarring reminder that things have changed over time. Our mental self-image often doesn't let us see those changes in the mirror unless we take measurements or weigh ourselves to do that assessment.
What priorities prevent one from putting less food in their mouth?
Seems a rather loaded question that assumes people inherently know the relative amounts of food people are putting in their mouth at any given instant.
Surely you are aware that a person's emotional state shades their perception, right?6 -
It's especially hard to lose the weight when you're working with diet plans from organisations like Weight Watchers, Slimming World, Atkins and so on that don't teach you anything about calories but offer instead a specific way of eating that has, for most people, the side effect of reducing calories.
I say 'for most people' because I, for one, am capable of overeating on carrots. Because I like carrots. I also like meat. And salad. And nuts. And when I felt ravenous (which was anytime I was bored) I would cheerily binge on whatever free foods that particular diet plan offered in the comfortable certainty that doing so wouldn't affect my weight loss. Because the 'experts' said those foods didn't count, right?
Weight Watchers may not have counted it, but my body sure as heck did. Result: even more overweight despite following each plan to the letter. Result: hopelessness, despair, giving up, eating pizza and cake because what the heck, might as well, it wasn't like eating what I was 'supposed' to worked any better.5 -
The idea that health is really what matters comes in when the activity is seen as not self-punishing enough, perhaps, or indulgence, not toughness.
Get by on 4 hours of sleep regularly, have a stressful job, pull all-nighters, pound out the last 10 miles of a marathon on an injured knee -- toughness. (I used to do all these but the last regularly, and mostly got praise or admiration for it, and even now I have trouble not seeing a virtue in sacrificing self care for such things, not sacrificing sleep first and feeling proud that I don't need to sleep that much, in my mind -- that's kind of messed up, actually.)
No wonder so many people want weight loss to be in that vein too -- eat 900 cal a day, fast for a week, never eat [insert foods you might enjoy here]. Not really consistent with a focus on health as the goal, though.
That aside, I would personally agree that in my own case not losing weight for a period of time was in part that I was confused about what to do and thought it would be harder than it was, feared failure and pity (I felt better pretending to be cool with being fat than letting others know I'd tried to lose and failed or that it bothered me -- I didn't tell anyone when I did decide to lose and tried to hide the fact I was dieting even), and because I did not care as much about it as the other things I was prioritizing (when all your stress and will power is used up on other things it's hard to add more things). I just don't think it's some terrible sin or anyone else's business that I had a period of time between when I decided I was unhappy with my weight and when I decided to lose.
To go back to the actual topic of the thread (which was not "expressing moral superiority over fat people or people who used to be fat"), I was lucky in that I was not heavy when younger and did not have a history of bad and counterproductive efforts at dieting and feeling shame and self-hatred connected with that. As a result, it was not super charged for me to decide to try to lose, although even I expected it likely would not work and so framed it for myself as eating heathfully and getting as fit as possible.
If someone finds a focus on weight loss something that tends to make them less likely to make efforts to be healthier and finds it much easier to focus on other good things (like eating well, exercising more, adding in more vegetables and lean protein and reducing high cal/low nutrient options), why complain that they aren't framing it about weight loss?
Because lifestyle changes only improve your health if you pair it with public self-abasement for having been fat.
If you feel happy about yourself while you do it, the changes won't work.
Fact.6 -
I just want to thank all those for taking the time to patiently and compassionately explain the myriad reasons why life may get in the way of setting weight loss and achieving certain health goals for oneself a priority. I haven’t had time to respond to the gross oversimplification of the assumption that eating less is easy and there’s no good reason why anyone could ever possibly struggle with it unless just lazy.
It’s actually a great counterpoint to why the OP asked about HAES and why that’s a thing. It’s a response to the pervasive fat shaming that is so prevalent in our society, which has been barely veiled here in recent responses. I do think that the HAES movement has taken the pendulum too far in the other direction but again appreciate everyone’s efforts to combat the snide judgement that was on display for the last couple pages.15
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