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Keto diet = good or bad
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janejellyroll wrote: »baconslave wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.
And it is amazing how you forget that correlation =/= causation.
You know that any number if factors can cause this reduced risk factor of 10-20% ( not cutting cases of CHD by 10-20% as you implied). Perhaps saturated fat is implicated because they slather butter on their bread. Who knows. Maybe they replaced spam and bread with salmon and wild rice.
Its amazing that you keep saying something we know and i have said in this thread. All science is correlation not causation. Its because its based on a various evidence that doesn't have 100% to all the factors in all human scenarios.
You can certainly choose to ignore the evidence. That is ok. That is your choice. But the evidence, that you post, is that whole grains (cereal) is better for "you" that SFA. This is something you often suggest, in other threads, is correlated with increased CVD. And there is tons of evidence to suggest that fiber is highly correlated with improved health. Yet again, something that is non essential. Meat is non essential. Oils are non essential. Just because they are non essential doesn't meat that dont have impacts. Fiber is positively correlated to improved health. Several oils (like flax or olive) are also correlated to improved health. Meat does not have the same correlations.
Let's just leave it at epidemiological studies prove nothing.
You cherry picked a few sentences that seem to say that plant = good. The sentences before it saidA very-low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet (eg, percentage of energy < 20% from fat and >70% from carbohydrates), once typical in traditional Asian populations, has the potential to be cardioprotective if most of the carbohydrates come from minimally processed grains, legumes, and vegetables and if the population is lean and active (and thus has low insulin resistance). However, such a diet is difficult to maintain long term. A very-low-fat diet may also increase risk of hemorrhagic stroke (9)...
which is a less positive correlation.
I know that there are correlations that show fibre is good, meat is evil and that all PUFAs are great. But it is not proof, although it is often stated as such. There are also correlations showing that fibre increases stomach upset (while creating the same nutrients that animal foods may provide) and that meat has no correlation to cvd (in the paper you quoted as well as the others). I am not ignoring the evidence. I believe that what you are calling "evidence" is not. I disagree with your hypothesis. You seem to think it is conclusive evidence. We will have to agree to disagree.
There are dozens of meta analyses that show positive effects of fiber? Where are the ones about SFA or meat (and btw, i am a huge red meat eater). And i never said meat = CVD. I said that there are not additional benefits demonstrated by consuming lots of red meat.
Those meta analysis (which show a correlation to goo health, not a cause) are on diets that need it: diets with a fair bit of carbs. For diets with very little or no carbs, there is no predicted benefit.
I'm all for whole foods. If one can tolerate or benefit from plant based foods, I think whole foods are the way to go. Something about them, it could be the fibre, may be beneficial. More beneficial than foods that are not plant based? Its possible in a well planned diet.
And I dont believe I wrote meat = CVD . But I am glad you never said that either.
The benefit that I see from eating red meat is protein and nutrients - it is a very nutrient dense food. But again, no one is advocating for "consuming lots of red meat" either.
Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that there are human beings who cannot tolerate a diet that includes plant-based foods?
I know there is a (relatively small?) group of carnivores online now who claim to be unable to tolerate plant-based foods in any amount. But beyond these online claims, is there anything else?
How well one does with plants appears to vary on a person by person basis, with those with autoimmune issues seeming to have problems that others do not experience.
The amount of people who can tolerate zero plants seems to be small. Omnivorous is the most common, by far.
So what you're saying is no, you don't have any non anecdotal evidence.
Got it
I can't see anyone stepping up to fund such a study, so that really isn't at all surprising.
When I refer to "evidence," I don't even mean exclusively large-scale studies, even a case study documenting a case of an individual who is unable to tolerate plant-based foods would be a step in the direction of evidence. Basically, is there anything beyond people self-diagnosing that they cannot tolerate any plant foods in their diet?
Presumably for these people who are legitimately unable to tolerate plant foods, some of them have to have seen doctors or RDs. The fact that they cannot tolerate any plant food would be interesting to these professionals and presumably worth writing up to document, as medical professionals do with little known or previously undocumented conditions. I've seen people here, on reddit, and on youtube claim that a zero carbohydrate diet is the best option or even only option for them, but it seems to still be poorly understood as a documented nutritional strategy.
There are many n=1, but no case studies that I know of. I think it might be hard to get that write up. I reversed my hyperinsulinemia by going AGAINST my doctor and endocrinologist's dietary advice. I did the opposite and stopped going to those doctors who were giving me bad advice. Then I cut carbs even further. Now I do not go to the doctor for medical reasons very often because I am healthier. Situations like mine would be hard to turn into a case study.
They are undocumented conditions, just conditions that improve with dietary changes. Even T2D doctors are just recently, almost seemingly grudging, starting to admit that a low carb diet can reverse T2D without resorting to vlcd meal replacements or bariatric surgery. I doubt many rheumys are interested in diet for arthritis, or orthopedic surgeons who advise nutrition over surgery (besides Baker but he's just a "bit" unusual) or even many gastroenterologists who advise low or no plants rather than cooking your vege and getting lots of fibre. Most medical professionals aren't interested.
There are medical professionals who are very interested in evidence that diet can help manage or even eliminate health conditions. I personally am more familiar with those working on the implications of plant-based diets, but I am sure there are medical professionals that would also be interested in documenting zero carbohydrate diets and the potential benefits associated with them.
Given that keto actually originated as a medical treatment and is well documented in regard to epilepsy, it seems odd to insist that the lack of evidence is because medical professionals can't be bothered to care. In the one instance where we know there is clear and compelling evidence that keto helps, medical professionals seem to have embraced the treatment and documented the results.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »baconslave wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.
And it is amazing how you forget that correlation =/= causation.
You know that any number if factors can cause this reduced risk factor of 10-20% ( not cutting cases of CHD by 10-20% as you implied). Perhaps saturated fat is implicated because they slather butter on their bread. Who knows. Maybe they replaced spam and bread with salmon and wild rice.
Its amazing that you keep saying something we know and i have said in this thread. All science is correlation not causation. Its because its based on a various evidence that doesn't have 100% to all the factors in all human scenarios.
You can certainly choose to ignore the evidence. That is ok. That is your choice. But the evidence, that you post, is that whole grains (cereal) is better for "you" that SFA. This is something you often suggest, in other threads, is correlated with increased CVD. And there is tons of evidence to suggest that fiber is highly correlated with improved health. Yet again, something that is non essential. Meat is non essential. Oils are non essential. Just because they are non essential doesn't meat that dont have impacts. Fiber is positively correlated to improved health. Several oils (like flax or olive) are also correlated to improved health. Meat does not have the same correlations.
Let's just leave it at epidemiological studies prove nothing.
You cherry picked a few sentences that seem to say that plant = good. The sentences before it saidA very-low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet (eg, percentage of energy < 20% from fat and >70% from carbohydrates), once typical in traditional Asian populations, has the potential to be cardioprotective if most of the carbohydrates come from minimally processed grains, legumes, and vegetables and if the population is lean and active (and thus has low insulin resistance). However, such a diet is difficult to maintain long term. A very-low-fat diet may also increase risk of hemorrhagic stroke (9)...
which is a less positive correlation.
I know that there are correlations that show fibre is good, meat is evil and that all PUFAs are great. But it is not proof, although it is often stated as such. There are also correlations showing that fibre increases stomach upset (while creating the same nutrients that animal foods may provide) and that meat has no correlation to cvd (in the paper you quoted as well as the others). I am not ignoring the evidence. I believe that what you are calling "evidence" is not. I disagree with your hypothesis. You seem to think it is conclusive evidence. We will have to agree to disagree.
There are dozens of meta analyses that show positive effects of fiber? Where are the ones about SFA or meat (and btw, i am a huge red meat eater). And i never said meat = CVD. I said that there are not additional benefits demonstrated by consuming lots of red meat.
Those meta analysis (which show a correlation to goo health, not a cause) are on diets that need it: diets with a fair bit of carbs. For diets with very little or no carbs, there is no predicted benefit.
I'm all for whole foods. If one can tolerate or benefit from plant based foods, I think whole foods are the way to go. Something about them, it could be the fibre, may be beneficial. More beneficial than foods that are not plant based? Its possible in a well planned diet.
And I dont believe I wrote meat = CVD . But I am glad you never said that either.
The benefit that I see from eating red meat is protein and nutrients - it is a very nutrient dense food. But again, no one is advocating for "consuming lots of red meat" either.
Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that there are human beings who cannot tolerate a diet that includes plant-based foods?
I know there is a (relatively small?) group of carnivores online now who claim to be unable to tolerate plant-based foods in any amount. But beyond these online claims, is there anything else?
How well one does with plants appears to vary on a person by person basis, with those with autoimmune issues seeming to have problems that others do not experience.
The amount of people who can tolerate zero plants seems to be small. Omnivorous is the most common, by far.
So what you're saying is no, you don't have any non anecdotal evidence.
Got it
I can't see anyone stepping up to fund such a study, so that really isn't at all surprising.
When I refer to "evidence," I don't even mean exclusively large-scale studies, even a case study documenting a case of an individual who is unable to tolerate plant-based foods would be a step in the direction of evidence. Basically, is there anything beyond people self-diagnosing that they cannot tolerate any plant foods in their diet?
Presumably for these people who are legitimately unable to tolerate plant foods, some of them have to have seen doctors or RDs. The fact that they cannot tolerate any plant food would be interesting to these professionals and presumably worth writing up to document, as medical professionals do with little known or previously undocumented conditions. I've seen people here, on reddit, and on youtube claim that a zero carbohydrate diet is the best option or even only option for them, but it seems to still be poorly understood as a documented nutritional strategy.
There are many n=1, but no case studies that I know of. I think it might be hard to get that write up. I reversed my hyperinsulinemia by going AGAINST my doctor and endocrinologist's dietary advice. I did the opposite and stopped going to those doctors who were giving me bad advice. Then I cut carbs even further. Now I do not go to the doctor for medical reasons very often because I am healthier. Situations like mine would be hard to turn into a case study.
They are undocumented conditions, just conditions that improve with dietary changes. Even T2D doctors are just recently, almost seemingly grudging, starting to admit that a low carb diet can reverse T2D without resorting to vlcd meal replacements or bariatric surgery. I doubt many rheumys are interested in diet for arthritis, or orthopedic surgeons who advise nutrition over surgery (besides Baker but he's just a "bit" unusual) or even many gastroenterologists who advise low or no plants rather than cooking your vege and getting lots of fibre. Most medical professionals aren't interested.
There are medical professionals who are very interested in evidence that diet can help manage or even eliminate health conditions. I personally am more familiar with those working on the implications of plant-based diets, but I am sure there are medical professionals that would also be interested in documenting zero carbohydrate diets and the potential benefits associated with them.
Given that keto actually originated as a medical treatment and is well documented in regard to epilepsy, it seems odd to insist that the lack of evidence is because medical professionals can't be bothered to care. In the one instance where we know there is clear and compelling evidence that keto helps, medical professionals seem to have embraced the treatment and documented the results.
I'm sure there are some. I've never met any, but I am sure they exist, but I agree that most are following the WFPB trend right now.
I disagree with your second paragraph. Keto was not "designed' to treat epilepsy. That is merely the first time, beyond weight loss, that a ketogenic diet was used to successfully treat a disease. It was also used to "treat" T1D before insulin was invented.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »baconslave wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Science has also found that a diet high in saturated fat is directly related to higher incidence of colon cancer, and that high consumption of red meat plays a large role. As someone with a high risk based on family history I would never in my life consider keto. It is not the right path for everyone.
I'm afraid that this is not correct.
Processed meats like bacon are found to to correlate with a 20% increased risk of colon cancer, which means that the risk rises from 5 to 6%.
A diet high is saturated fat has NOT been found to cause colon cancer, nor does it correlate to increased risk. The meat preservatives appear to be the problem, and not the meat. Saying that saturated fat is the problem is incorrect, but it is mainly the fault of poor journalism or those with an anti meat agenda.
But, if you do have evidence that saturated fat causes cancer, please share it. As someone who eats a lot if red meat, I would be curious to read it
I think with the exception of transfat, this can literally be said about everything. Science suggest correlations because all of this is multifaceted. Its no different than the stuff you say about refined carbs. Because one can consume lots of them and still become metabolically healthy.
Its why all diets produce similar results. The difference between all of these diets is minimal.
It could be said about everything, but it is usually the higher fat, and foods with higher saturated fats, that are demonized: red meat, eggs, full fat dairy, coconut or palm oil. It is marginally better now, but most people still wrongly think that red meat or coconut, foods that people have been eating for thousands of years, is bad for you.
Refined and highly processed foods, including many seed oils, are relatively new to our diet and have not shown themselves to be harmless, even in epidemiological studies. At best, they are neutral. At worst, frequent consumption appears to proceed or accompany poor health or diease.
LOL I think the pendulum has swung pretty hard the other way in that the only foods I see demonized these days are sugar, carbs, and “white foods”... totally ignoring that many of the examples provided contain as many calories from fat as from carbs... yet look how your own post ends...
My response was to correct some common misinformation. Saturated fats have never been proven to hurt health, and the only correlation it has to poor health is when preserved and highly processed (like bacon) or when consumed with highly refined and processed carbs (baked deserts). If you remove those factors, saturated fats are harmless.
On the other hand, refined and highly processed carbohydrates do not appear to be as harmless as saturated fat, as seen often in less reliable epidemiological studies and a few rcts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869506/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5996878/
But if you have something that shows refined and highly processed carbs improve health, or are associated with better health, I would be interested to read it.
I have never denied that eating too many calories make you fat. I have said in the past that high fat and high carb together is a recipe for weight gain, but in what you are quoting me, I was talking about the health effects of foods and not eating too much (aka CI>CO) or comparing calories.
Do you realize that first link you posted goes against a lot of what you believe, especially as you have dipped more into carnivore?
My personal favorite:On the other hand, recent clinical trial and epidemiologic evidence suggests that a diet with moderately restricted carbohydrate intake but rich in vegetable fat and vegetable protein improves blood lipid profile (10) and is associated with lower risk of IHD in the long term (11). Benefits of the plant-based, low-carbohydrate diet are likely to stem from higher intake of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, and micronutrients as well as the reduced GL in the dietary pattern.
Clearly, diets high in either saturated fats or refined carbohydrates are not suitable for IHD prevention. However, refined carbohydrates are likely to cause even greater metabolic damage than saturated fat in a predominantly sedentary and overweight population. Although intake of saturated fat should remain at a relatively low amount and partially hydrogenated fats should be eliminated, a singular focus on reduction of total and saturated fat can be counterproductive because dietary fat is typically replaced by refined carbohydrate, as has been seen over the past several decades. In this era of widespread obesity and insulin resistance, the time has come to shift the focus of the diet-heart paradigm away from restricted fat intake and toward reduced consumption of refined carbohydrates.
So essentially, reduce and replaced processed carbs with whole carbs or plant based fats. And focus on PLANT BASED proteins, fats and fiber.
So no one would argue that processed carbs or processed fat is beneficial. Focus on whole foods is going to yield much better results. Also, modulating carbs based on adherence, personal satiety cues, and athletic performance needs.
ETA:
And from your second link:In summary, replacing dietary intake of SFA with refined starches has little effect on the risk of CHD. However, consumption of added sugars, especially of SSBs, may have a stronger association with risk than either SFA or refined starches. When SFA are replaced with whole grains, risk of CHD is decreased. However, there is still uncertainty regarding the absolute and relative importance of these different components of the diet. A growing weight of authoritative opinion is emerging that supports these conclusions [29,30,31].
How about that. Replacing SFA with whole grains (from cereals) does reduce the risk of CHD.
Essentially, while the correlations of SFA and CHD are low or not founded, you still see improved health when replacing SFA with other nutrients like PUFAs or whole grains.
Meh, it's pretty tough to find a link that supports everything I have experienced for myself. The links show what I intended: refined and highly processed carbs are foods best avoided or limited.
I have never denied that increasing plants and pufas happens to lower ldl, nor that past (poor) studies associated that with reduced cvd risk due to lowering of ldl (presuming ldl contributes to cvd). But I consider ldl to be the weakest of all associations to cvd risk, way behind HDL, triglycerides, crop, cac score and whether or not someone has hyperinsulinemia.
Pufas do lower ldl but that doesn't help CV health. Replacing sfa with whole grains does not lower risk of chd either - it only lowers ldl . You are conflating a weak association with causation.
Pufas also raise all cause mortality and raises your risk of developing cancer. I'll stick with more SFAs than recommended.
Plus the recommendation of a wfpb diet is over SAD. It is not shown that wfpb is better than wf-animal-based. I don't deny that wfpb can be healthy if supplemented properly, but it won't beat animal product heavy diets, nutritionally speaking.
Its amazing how you ignore what is written in favor of your own agenda. I literally copy and pasted what your cohert study suggested. The data suggested a 10-20% reduction in CHD disease when replacing SFA with whole grains. That is statistically significant. So adding more SFA does nothing to improve health. At best, its nuetral.
And it is amazing how you forget that correlation =/= causation.
You know that any number if factors can cause this reduced risk factor of 10-20% ( not cutting cases of CHD by 10-20% as you implied). Perhaps saturated fat is implicated because they slather butter on their bread. Who knows. Maybe they replaced spam and bread with salmon and wild rice.
Its amazing that you keep saying something we know and i have said in this thread. All science is correlation not causation. Its because its based on a various evidence that doesn't have 100% to all the factors in all human scenarios.
You can certainly choose to ignore the evidence. That is ok. That is your choice. But the evidence, that you post, is that whole grains (cereal) is better for "you" that SFA. This is something you often suggest, in other threads, is correlated with increased CVD. And there is tons of evidence to suggest that fiber is highly correlated with improved health. Yet again, something that is non essential. Meat is non essential. Oils are non essential. Just because they are non essential doesn't meat that dont have impacts. Fiber is positively correlated to improved health. Several oils (like flax or olive) are also correlated to improved health. Meat does not have the same correlations.
Let's just leave it at epidemiological studies prove nothing.
You cherry picked a few sentences that seem to say that plant = good. The sentences before it saidA very-low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet (eg, percentage of energy < 20% from fat and >70% from carbohydrates), once typical in traditional Asian populations, has the potential to be cardioprotective if most of the carbohydrates come from minimally processed grains, legumes, and vegetables and if the population is lean and active (and thus has low insulin resistance). However, such a diet is difficult to maintain long term. A very-low-fat diet may also increase risk of hemorrhagic stroke (9)...
which is a less positive correlation.
I know that there are correlations that show fibre is good, meat is evil and that all PUFAs are great. But it is not proof, although it is often stated as such. There are also correlations showing that fibre increases stomach upset (while creating the same nutrients that animal foods may provide) and that meat has no correlation to cvd (in the paper you quoted as well as the others). I am not ignoring the evidence. I believe that what you are calling "evidence" is not. I disagree with your hypothesis. You seem to think it is conclusive evidence. We will have to agree to disagree.
There are dozens of meta analyses that show positive effects of fiber? Where are the ones about SFA or meat (and btw, i am a huge red meat eater). And i never said meat = CVD. I said that there are not additional benefits demonstrated by consuming lots of red meat.
Those meta analysis (which show a correlation to goo health, not a cause) are on diets that need it: diets with a fair bit of carbs. For diets with very little or no carbs, there is no predicted benefit.
I'm all for whole foods. If one can tolerate or benefit from plant based foods, I think whole foods are the way to go. Something about them, it could be the fibre, may be beneficial. More beneficial than foods that are not plant based? Its possible in a well planned diet.
And I dont believe I wrote meat = CVD . But I am glad you never said that either.
The benefit that I see from eating red meat is protein and nutrients - it is a very nutrient dense food. But again, no one is advocating for "consuming lots of red meat" either.
Is there any non-anecdotal evidence that there are human beings who cannot tolerate a diet that includes plant-based foods?
I know there is a (relatively small?) group of carnivores online now who claim to be unable to tolerate plant-based foods in any amount. But beyond these online claims, is there anything else?
How well one does with plants appears to vary on a person by person basis, with those with autoimmune issues seeming to have problems that others do not experience.
The amount of people who can tolerate zero plants seems to be small. Omnivorous is the most common, by far.
So what you're saying is no, you don't have any non anecdotal evidence.
Got it
I can't see anyone stepping up to fund such a study, so that really isn't at all surprising.
When I refer to "evidence," I don't even mean exclusively large-scale studies, even a case study documenting a case of an individual who is unable to tolerate plant-based foods would be a step in the direction of evidence. Basically, is there anything beyond people self-diagnosing that they cannot tolerate any plant foods in their diet?
Presumably for these people who are legitimately unable to tolerate plant foods, some of them have to have seen doctors or RDs. The fact that they cannot tolerate any plant food would be interesting to these professionals and presumably worth writing up to document, as medical professionals do with little known or previously undocumented conditions. I've seen people here, on reddit, and on youtube claim that a zero carbohydrate diet is the best option or even only option for them, but it seems to still be poorly understood as a documented nutritional strategy.
There are many n=1, but no case studies that I know of. I think it might be hard to get that write up. I reversed my hyperinsulinemia by going AGAINST my doctor and endocrinologist's dietary advice. I did the opposite and stopped going to those doctors who were giving me bad advice. Then I cut carbs even further. Now I do not go to the doctor for medical reasons very often because I am healthier. Situations like mine would be hard to turn into a case study.
They are undocumented conditions, just conditions that improve with dietary changes. Even T2D doctors are just recently, almost seemingly grudging, starting to admit that a low carb diet can reverse T2D without resorting to vlcd meal replacements or bariatric surgery. I doubt many rheumys are interested in diet for arthritis, or orthopedic surgeons who advise nutrition over surgery (besides Baker but he's just a "bit" unusual) or even many gastroenterologists who advise low or no plants rather than cooking your vege and getting lots of fibre. Most medical professionals aren't interested.
There are medical professionals who are very interested in evidence that diet can help manage or even eliminate health conditions. I personally am more familiar with those working on the implications of plant-based diets, but I am sure there are medical professionals that would also be interested in documenting zero carbohydrate diets and the potential benefits associated with them.
Given that keto actually originated as a medical treatment and is well documented in regard to epilepsy, it seems odd to insist that the lack of evidence is because medical professionals can't be bothered to care. In the one instance where we know there is clear and compelling evidence that keto helps, medical professionals seem to have embraced the treatment and documented the results.
I'm sure there are some. I've never met any, but I am sure they exist, but I agree that most are following the WFPB trend right now.
I disagree with your second paragraph. Keto was not "designed' to treat epilepsy. That is merely the first time, beyond weight loss, that a ketogenic diet was used to successfully treat a disease. It was also used to "treat" T1D before insulin was invented.
Thanks for the correction, I could have phrased that better. My point was that there is a good example of a health condition that can, in many cases, be managed with keto and the medical profession has recognized it, documented it, and recommends it. So if the argument is that medical professionals aren't interested in seeing any connection between diet and health conditions, I'd want to understand why this didn't apply in this case.
8 -
susan23629 wrote: »It can help people with autoimmune diseases. Following a lower carb diet helps reduce inflammation. You don’t have to follow Atkins or Keto though and be as extreme and still get the health benefits.
Yep. That right there. I have Hashimoto's and the foods that agitate me the most are full of carbs. I do best when I avoid them. But, that's me and my special situation.1 -
My experience with keto is positive. My friend struggling with myocitis (autoimmune) disease tried keto together (uner 30 carbs a day) for 6 months. I lot 18 lbs and she lost weight and was able to drop the amount of steroids she took daily. I transitioned to LCHF at 100 grams of carbs a day or less, which is more enjoyable and manageable long-term for me. I get my carbs from vegetables (and wine! :-) 2x a week). It's working for me.0
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I was against the Keto diet for so long, my husband wanted to try it out so I decided to try some of the meals. Now I'm hooked. I'm a type 1 diabetic and it's not officially recommended for T1. I've never had such good blood sugar levels, I'm no longer hungry ALL the time. I can, for the first time since my diagnosis, not have to worry about missing a meal and having serious consequences. I agree that it's not for everyone but if it's working for you and you're feeling good, keep it up. I do have to say I still eat a LOT of veggies - low carb veggies! There's a lot of options that taste great.0
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I was against the Keto diet for so long, my husband wanted to try it out so I decided to try some of the meals. Now I'm hooked. I'm a type 1 diabetic and it's not officially recommended for T1. I've never had such good blood sugar levels, I'm no longer hungry ALL the time. I can, for the first time since my diagnosis, not have to worry about missing a meal and having serious consequences. I agree that it's not for everyone but if it's working for you and you're feeling good, keep it up. I do have to say I still eat a LOT of veggies - low carb veggies! There's a lot of options that taste great.
Haveyou ever read Dr Richard Bernstein's work? He's a T1D and doctor who pioneered LCHF diets and home testing for T1Ds. Amazing work! http://www.diabetes-book.com/4 -
I’m sure for some people it’s good, but for me it would be awful. My gallbladder started giving me pain a few years ago, and a HIDA scan showed 5% or less ejection rate, which basically means it doesn’t work properly to secrete bile, causing the build up and pain when I eat fatty foods. Low fat diet only for me. ;(2
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I was against the Keto diet for so long, my husband wanted to try it out so I decided to try some of the meals. Now I'm hooked. I'm a type 1 diabetic and it's not officially recommended for T1. I've never had such good blood sugar levels, I'm no longer hungry ALL the time. I can, for the first time since my diagnosis, not have to worry about missing a meal and having serious consequences. I agree that it's not for everyone but if it's working for you and you're feeling good, keep it up. I do have to say I still eat a LOT of veggies - low carb veggies! There's a lot of options that taste great.
Add me to the list of people who've had to change their ideas about low carb. I've always been skeptical of low carb diets, but a few weeks ago I was very frustrated with where I was at and on a whim decided to try it. I'm not at keto levels, (went from over 200g of carbs a day, down to 50g-75g net carb goal range), and I was hoping to take care of bloating issues/lose a couple pounds of weight creep that I hadn't been able to shake. What I wasn't expecting was the complete change to my appetite/hunger signals-its been a surreal experience! I now have to be intentional about eating, because it's just not even something I think of anymore. The bloating is completely gone and I've lost several pounds. I'm not tracking my calories but when I spot check I'm in the 1,200-1,400 range, which is giving me a deficit without me even trying. I'm now to the point where I'm going to have to be intentional about adding calories because I'm about ready to get below the low point of my maintenance range.
I also eat a lot of veggies, that paired with an increase in protein and fat, (went from fat free/low fat, to full fat), has completely changed the game for me. I'm curious to see if this continues the further along I go into my low carb experiment.3
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