The most polarizing food: where do you stand?

DanSanthomes wrote: »

The problem with overeating is over consumption OF things 'masquerading as food' FIFY

Hey, it's polarising, nothing wrong with a bit of zealotry!

Paperpudding - you are not 'the norm' though are you? If this 'crap' is in the food aisle, then people naturally assume that they are nutritional items. If they weren't there, people might I don't know, buy a pepper? Or a carrot. I may be being facetious but I do think there's such a thing as too much choice with this garbage.

Like I say, it's close to my heart so I get heated about it. I saw too many people spinning wheels in their attempts to lose weight. Why can't they make donuts with a perfect Macro split???

I think someone said they are in the bakery area. If someone is in the bakery area looking at sweet things, they are planning to buy some kind of dessert item. For that matter, if they are in the aisle that sells other cookies, they are probably looking at cookies.

No one is likely to think they are low cal or the nutritional equivalent of broccoli. No one overeats cookies because they are confused and think they are the equivalent of eating some balanced dinner.

DanSanthomes wrote: »

lemurcat2 wrote: »

But it seems absurd to me to call a homemade cookie "not food." It's made with the same basic ingredients that you can use to make a bunch of other food items (flour = bread, pasta, etc.). Pretending like dessert items aren't food at all is just an unjustified rhetorical move.

Now I get you are arguing that there's some distinction between a homemade cookie and cookies sold in grocery stores (or these cookies specifically, dunno), but I don't think that's a supportable claim if we are talking about nutrition (i.e., what is food). And I'm not sure on what basis you can say that these are not "edible" without even trying them and simultaneously complain that too many people are inclined to overeat them (which suggests the issue is that some find them plenty edible).

Is it that they are colorful? That's hardly unique to store-bought baked goods. I am usually more of a pie person, but a few years ago I made some lemon-lavendar cupcakes (something like this, except mine had some lavendar in the cupcakes themselves: https://thecakeblog.com/2017/02/lemon-lavender-cupcakes.html). They were pretty and colorful like those show (less frosting because I don't like the frosting to cake ratio to be so high). That did not change the fact that they were food. Not food I'd recommend having as too high a proportion of one's diet, because they are high cal and lower in nutrients, but food all the same.

Sorry Lemurcat,

Was talking about those shocking manufactured cookies from previous page that set everybody off. Opinion seemed to be that they were gross so I asked the question, in essence, "Why do we make crap like this?". *If you make your own cookies, and therefore know what's in them, all power to you.

Nothing to do with colour either - I'm not cakeist. (Nothing better than a plate full of foods in different colours).

To explain my stance a little. I'm from the UK and over here we have an unhealthy Office Cake Culture whereby it seems every day there's a different excuse to bring in even more brightly coloured 'baubles' to tempt our tastebuds. Nowhere more does this seem to be a thing than our glorious NHS (National Health Service) where I worked some years ago. As a noob there I watched as each day a new 'treat' was brought in for us all to try - each one seemingly more outlandish and less food-looking than the last. The sad thing was, I was surrounded by overweight people on constant diets who eventually caved and had a bite then felt pressured to bring something else in the next day. Never in my 30+ years working in offices had I seen such an array of garbage 'food' - and the effects of it. So please pardon me if this item was a particularly 'polarizing' food. :-)

So, you seem to be drawing a distinction between homemade cookies, and these cookies. Let's dig into that a bit, shall we? (I have no pre-defined agenda here: I don't eat the Lofthouse cookies, think they're gross, but I'm very laissez faire when it comes to others' choices.)

This started with your initial post being woo-ed, and you asking why. So let's approach this in a fact-based manner, since that would be a science-ish thing to do.

According to the Food Lion (grocery store) web site, these cookies have the following ingredients:

Sugar, Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Margarine (Palm Oil, Water, Soybean Oil, Salt, Contains 2% or less of: Mono- & Diglycerides, Calcium Disodium EDTA [Preservative], Artificial Flavor, Annatto [Color], Vitamin A Palmitate), Eggs, Contains 2% or less of: Water, Corn Starch, Vegetable Oil (Palm Kernel Oil and/or Palm Oil and/or Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil [Cottonseed and/or Soybean Oil]), Dextrin, Skim Milk, Natural & Artificial Flavors, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, Monocalcium Phosphate), Soy Lecithin (Emulsifier),Confectioner's Glaze (Lac Resin), Food Starch-Modified, Colors (Carmine [Color], Blue 1, Blue 1 Lake, Blue 2, Blue 2 Lake, Red 3, Red 40, Red 40 Lake, Yellow 5, Yellow 5 Lake, Yellow 6, Yellow 6 Lake), Polysorbate 60, Carnauba Wax, Sodium Propionate (Preservative).

If I were making cookies at home, most of those ingredients would be in the cookies, especially true for the ingredients at the top (more predominant ones): Sugar, flour, some kind of oil or shortening (probably a simpler one like butter, or coconut oil, because yummier), eggs, milk, leavening. I wouldn't put in artificial flavors (natural vanilla extract is yummier IMO), probably not the artificial colors (I mostly don't want colors - but if I did it would be standard commercial food coloring, which would likely be this same stuff). I certainly wouldn't put in the preservatives (gonna eat 'em or freeze 'em), carnauba wax (?!), or the Confectioners Glaze (Lac Resin) (no idea what that even is).

So, bottom line: Similar ingredients, differences in the minor items. (This might justify a "woo", in some people's minds.)

Next up, nutrition: Specifically, do they have nutritional value, or are they "masquerading as food".

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 38 g
Servings Per Container 10
Amount Per Serving
Calories 160.0 Cal
Calories From Fat 50.0 Cal
% Daily Value
Total Fat 6.0g 9.0%
Saturated Fat 2.5 g 13.0
Trans Fat 0.0 g
Cholesterol 5.0 mg 2.0
Sodium 100.0 mg4.0
Total Carbohydrate 26.0g 9.0%
Dietary Fiber 0.0 g 0.0
Sugars 16.0 g
Protein 1.0 g
Vitamin A 4.0
Vitamin C 0.0
Calcium 0.0
Iron 4.0

So, "food energy" (calories ), tiny (negligible) amount of protein, a little fat, tiny vitamin A and iron. Not great. Probably not that far off home-made, but realistically, very low nutrition for the calories, mostly sugar and carbs. They might be a truly affirmative choice for an endurance athlete who enjoyed them and needed the calories. For anyone else who enjoys them, seems like a "sometimes food".

Conclusion: Nothing in particular. Just some facts. It's just that I don't mostly enjoy rant-y emotional stuff. Facts are good.

DanSanthomes wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

DanSanthomes wrote: »

lemurcat2 wrote: »

But it seems absurd to me to call a homemade cookie "not food." It's made with the same basic ingredients that you can use to make a bunch of other food items (flour = bread, pasta, etc.). Pretending like dessert items aren't food at all is just an unjustified rhetorical move.

Now I get you are arguing that there's some distinction between a homemade cookie and cookies sold in grocery stores (or these cookies specifically, dunno), but I don't think that's a supportable claim if we are talking about nutrition (i.e., what is food). And I'm not sure on what basis you can say that these are not "edible" without even trying them and simultaneously complain that too many people are inclined to overeat them (which suggests the issue is that some find them plenty edible).

Is it that they are colorful? That's hardly unique to store-bought baked goods. I am usually more of a pie person, but a few years ago I made some lemon-lavendar cupcakes (something like this, except mine had some lavendar in the cupcakes themselves: https://thecakeblog.com/2017/02/lemon-lavender-cupcakes.html). They were pretty and colorful like those show (less frosting because I don't like the frosting to cake ratio to be so high). That did not change the fact that they were food. Not food I'd recommend having as too high a proportion of one's diet, because they are high cal and lower in nutrients, but food all the same.

Sorry Lemurcat,

Was talking about those shocking manufactured cookies from previous page that set everybody off. Opinion seemed to be that they were gross so I asked the question, in essence, "Why do we make crap like this?". *If you make your own cookies, and therefore know what's in them, all power to you.

Nothing to do with colour either - I'm not cakeist. (Nothing better than a plate full of foods in different colours).

To explain my stance a little. I'm from the UK and over here we have an unhealthy Office Cake Culture whereby it seems every day there's a different excuse to bring in even more brightly coloured 'baubles' to tempt our tastebuds. Nowhere more does this seem to be a thing than our glorious NHS (National Health Service) where I worked some years ago. As a noob there I watched as each day a new 'treat' was brought in for us all to try - each one seemingly more outlandish and less food-looking than the last. The sad thing was, I was surrounded by overweight people on constant diets who eventually caved and had a bite then felt pressured to bring something else in the next day. Never in my 30+ years working in offices had I seen such an array of garbage 'food' - and the effects of it. So please pardon me if this item was a particularly 'polarizing' food. :-)

So, you seem to be drawing a distinction between homemade cookies, and these cookies. Let's dig into that a bit, shall we? (I have no pre-defined agenda here: I don't eat the Lofthouse cookies, think they're gross, but I'm very laissez faire when it comes to others' choices.)

This started with your initial post being woo-ed, and you asking why. So let's approach this in a fact-based manner, since that would be a science-ish thing to do.

According to the Food Lion (grocery store) web site, these cookies have the following ingredients:

Sugar, Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Margarine (Palm Oil, Water, Soybean Oil, Salt, Contains 2% or less of: Mono- & Diglycerides, Calcium Disodium EDTA [Preservative], Artificial Flavor, Annatto [Color], Vitamin A Palmitate), Eggs, Contains 2% or less of: Water, Corn Starch, Vegetable Oil (Palm Kernel Oil and/or Palm Oil and/or Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil [Cottonseed and/or Soybean Oil]), Dextrin, Skim Milk, Natural & Artificial Flavors, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, Monocalcium Phosphate), Soy Lecithin (Emulsifier),Confectioner's Glaze (Lac Resin), Food Starch-Modified, Colors (Carmine [Color], Blue 1, Blue 1 Lake, Blue 2, Blue 2 Lake, Red 3, Red 40, Red 40 Lake, Yellow 5, Yellow 5 Lake, Yellow 6, Yellow 6 Lake), Polysorbate 60, Carnauba Wax, Sodium Propionate (Preservative).

If I were making cookies at home, most of those ingredients would be in the cookies, especially true for the ingredients at the top (more predominant ones): Sugar, flour, some kind of oil or shortening (probably a simpler one like butter, or coconut oil, because yummier), eggs, milk, leavening. I wouldn't put in artificial flavors (natural vanilla extract is yummier IMO), probably not the artificial colors (I mostly don't want colors - but if I did it would be standard commercial food coloring, which would likely be this same stuff). I certainly wouldn't put in the preservatives (gonna eat 'em or freeze 'em), carnauba wax (?!), or the Confectioners Glaze (Lac Resin) (no idea what that even is).

So, bottom line: Similar ingredients, differences in the minor items. (This might justify a "woo", in some people's minds.)

Next up, nutrition: Specifically, do they have nutritional value, or are they "masquerading as food".

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 38 g
Servings Per Container 10
Amount Per Serving
Calories 160.0 Cal
Calories From Fat 50.0 Cal
% Daily Value
Total Fat 6.0g 9.0%
Saturated Fat 2.5 g 13.0
Trans Fat 0.0 g
Cholesterol 5.0 mg 2.0
Sodium 100.0 mg4.0
Total Carbohydrate 26.0g 9.0%
Dietary Fiber 0.0 g 0.0
Sugars 16.0 g
Protein 1.0 g
Vitamin A 4.0
Vitamin C 0.0
Calcium 0.0
Iron 4.0

So, "food energy" (calories ), tiny (negligible) amount of protein, a little fat, tiny vitamin A and iron. Not great. Probably not that far off home-made, but realistically, very low nutrition for the calories, mostly sugar and carbs. They might be a truly affirmative choice for an endurance athlete who enjoyed them and needed the calories. For anyone else who enjoys them, seems like a "sometimes food".

Conclusion: Nothing in particular. Just some facts. It's just that I don't mostly enjoy rant-y emotional stuff. Facts are good.

Thanks for this, AnnPT77 - absolutely spot on! Non emotional, just hard facts.

Awesome list of ingredients there followed by Nutrition Facts. They just don't lie.

I can't wait to feed them yummy cookies to my toddler, and pack them into the older kids lunch boxes!

I suspect you're trying to be sarcastic, but actually that would be an excellent idea. Teach your children how to enjoy calorie-dense treats in moderation now, and they'll be less likely to go overboard when they encounter them in later life.

Or you could continue to refuse to accept that there is any middle ground between 'eat nothing but vast amounts of cookies' and 'never eat any cookies at all'. Do you see everything in such black and white terms? Have you ever spoken to a therapist about it, if so? Because it's not a normal/healthy way of thinking.

DanSanthomes wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

DanSanthomes wrote: »

lemurcat2 wrote: »

But it seems absurd to me to call a homemade cookie "not food." It's made with the same basic ingredients that you can use to make a bunch of other food items (flour = bread, pasta, etc.). Pretending like dessert items aren't food at all is just an unjustified rhetorical move.

Now I get you are arguing that there's some distinction between a homemade cookie and cookies sold in grocery stores (or these cookies specifically, dunno), but I don't think that's a supportable claim if we are talking about nutrition (i.e., what is food). And I'm not sure on what basis you can say that these are not "edible" without even trying them and simultaneously complain that too many people are inclined to overeat them (which suggests the issue is that some find them plenty edible).

Is it that they are colorful? That's hardly unique to store-bought baked goods. I am usually more of a pie person, but a few years ago I made some lemon-lavendar cupcakes (something like this, except mine had some lavendar in the cupcakes themselves: https://thecakeblog.com/2017/02/lemon-lavender-cupcakes.html). They were pretty and colorful like those show (less frosting because I don't like the frosting to cake ratio to be so high). That did not change the fact that they were food. Not food I'd recommend having as too high a proportion of one's diet, because they are high cal and lower in nutrients, but food all the same.

Sorry Lemurcat,

Was talking about those shocking manufactured cookies from previous page that set everybody off. Opinion seemed to be that they were gross so I asked the question, in essence, "Why do we make crap like this?". *If you make your own cookies, and therefore know what's in them, all power to you.

Nothing to do with colour either - I'm not cakeist. (Nothing better than a plate full of foods in different colours).

To explain my stance a little. I'm from the UK and over here we have an unhealthy Office Cake Culture whereby it seems every day there's a different excuse to bring in even more brightly coloured 'baubles' to tempt our tastebuds. Nowhere more does this seem to be a thing than our glorious NHS (National Health Service) where I worked some years ago. As a noob there I watched as each day a new 'treat' was brought in for us all to try - each one seemingly more outlandish and less food-looking than the last. The sad thing was, I was surrounded by overweight people on constant diets who eventually caved and had a bite then felt pressured to bring something else in the next day. Never in my 30+ years working in offices had I seen such an array of garbage 'food' - and the effects of it. So please pardon me if this item was a particularly 'polarizing' food. :-)

So, you seem to be drawing a distinction between homemade cookies, and these cookies. Let's dig into that a bit, shall we? (I have no pre-defined agenda here: I don't eat the Lofthouse cookies, think they're gross, but I'm very laissez faire when it comes to others' choices.)

This started with your initial post being woo-ed, and you asking why. So let's approach this in a fact-based manner, since that would be a science-ish thing to do.

According to the Food Lion (grocery store) web site, these cookies have the following ingredients:

Sugar, Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Margarine (Palm Oil, Water, Soybean Oil, Salt, Contains 2% or less of: Mono- & Diglycerides, Calcium Disodium EDTA [Preservative], Artificial Flavor, Annatto [Color], Vitamin A Palmitate), Eggs, Contains 2% or less of: Water, Corn Starch, Vegetable Oil (Palm Kernel Oil and/or Palm Oil and/or Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil [Cottonseed and/or Soybean Oil]), Dextrin, Skim Milk, Natural & Artificial Flavors, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, Monocalcium Phosphate), Soy Lecithin (Emulsifier),Confectioner's Glaze (Lac Resin), Food Starch-Modified, Colors (Carmine [Color], Blue 1, Blue 1 Lake, Blue 2, Blue 2 Lake, Red 3, Red 40, Red 40 Lake, Yellow 5, Yellow 5 Lake, Yellow 6, Yellow 6 Lake), Polysorbate 60, Carnauba Wax, Sodium Propionate (Preservative).

If I were making cookies at home, most of those ingredients would be in the cookies, especially true for the ingredients at the top (more predominant ones): Sugar, flour, some kind of oil or shortening (probably a simpler one like butter, or coconut oil, because yummier), eggs, milk, leavening. I wouldn't put in artificial flavors (natural vanilla extract is yummier IMO), probably not the artificial colors (I mostly don't want colors - but if I did it would be standard commercial food coloring, which would likely be this same stuff). I certainly wouldn't put in the preservatives (gonna eat 'em or freeze 'em), carnauba wax (?!), or the Confectioners Glaze (Lac Resin) (no idea what that even is).

So, bottom line: Similar ingredients, differences in the minor items. (This might justify a "woo", in some people's minds.)

Next up, nutrition: Specifically, do they have nutritional value, or are they "masquerading as food".

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 38 g
Servings Per Container 10
Amount Per Serving
Calories 160.0 Cal
Calories From Fat 50.0 Cal
% Daily Value
Total Fat 6.0g 9.0%
Saturated Fat 2.5 g 13.0
Trans Fat 0.0 g
Cholesterol 5.0 mg 2.0
Sodium 100.0 mg4.0
Total Carbohydrate 26.0g 9.0%
Dietary Fiber 0.0 g 0.0
Sugars 16.0 g
Protein 1.0 g
Vitamin A 4.0
Vitamin C 0.0
Calcium 0.0
Iron 4.0

So, "food energy" (calories ), tiny (negligible) amount of protein, a little fat, tiny vitamin A and iron. Not great. Probably not that far off home-made, but realistically, very low nutrition for the calories, mostly sugar and carbs. They might be a truly affirmative choice for an endurance athlete who enjoyed them and needed the calories. For anyone else who enjoys them, seems like a "sometimes food".

Conclusion: Nothing in particular. Just some facts. It's just that I don't mostly enjoy rant-y emotional stuff. Facts are good.

Thanks for this, AnnPT77 - absolutely spot on! Non emotional, just hard facts.

Awesome list of ingredients there followed by Nutrition Facts. They just don't lie.

I can't wait to feed them yummy cookies to my toddler, and pack them into the older kids lunch boxes!

I would say the problem with the cookies are that they are not yummy.

However, there's not any difference in basic ingredients or nutrition facts between those and homemade cookies of many types. That was Ann's point. Thus, calling one food and one not food makes no sense.

For example, you said you were passionate about these cookies because people brought them to your office (and I'm sorry, occasionally we get subpar treats at our office too, I tend not to eat free office food that just appears, and that kind of option makes it easier). However, what is more common at my office is my assistant (who has a family bakery business on the side) experimenting with different baked goods and bringing them in. Those are more tempting, and so more likely (at least by me) to lead to overeating. (I mostly don't eat even those, except for something planned, like a paczki on Shrove Tuesday -- Polish thing common where I live.) Presumably you'd call these types of foods, well, food, but again they are just as likely to be overeaten and have similar nutritional content.

Btw, when I was in grade school, my mom normally would include some kind of reasonable sized sweet treat with my lunch (she would also include a baggie of raw veg). It might be a homemade cookie, could have been a girl scout cookie or an oreo or 2. I was never overweight growing up and don't have a particularly strong sweet tooth now (my sister ate more sweets than me growing up and has no sweet tooth now). So I don't see it as a terrible thing to let your kids have some sweet treats.