Why we need carbs.

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  • FairyMiss
    FairyMiss Posts: 1,812 Member
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    OH my days, I read a post maybe 20 mins or so ago..where someone basically said `I will sit back and watch the fireworks`...and it is so true!


    Wow, it has got very angry and heated...bree2012 you have put the cat amongst the pigeons... I hope you did not intend to do that???


    oh i am pretty sure is was her direct intention
    QUOTE:

    QUOTE:

    QUOTE:

    I'm just here for the show.

    *eating popcorn*


    Not much of a show right now.


    Does this mean I get a refund?


    Wait for a few more hours. Most people are nocturnal internet users.
  • anewrac
    anewrac Posts: 52 Member
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    I'm not here to debate the high- carb/ low carb battle.

    Personally, I think everyone has their own "thing" that works for them. My roommate's theory is "calories in, calories out". Another friend watches her calories. One lady does HCG. I personally have done the Atkins and loved it! It worked FOR ME... not for any of them.

    We are all different, so why shouldn't our life style choice be?

    Totally agree!!!!
  • anewrac
    anewrac Posts: 52 Member
    Options
    I'm not here to debate the high- carb/ low carb battle.

    Personally, I think everyone has their own "thing" that works for them. My roommate's theory is "calories in, calories out". Another friend watches her calories. One lady does HCG. I personally have done the Atkins and loved it! It worked FOR ME... not for any of them.

    We are all different, so why shouldn't our life style choice be?

    Totally agree!!!!
  • mermx
    mermx Posts: 976
    Options
    OH my days, I read a post maybe 20 mins or so ago..where someone basically said `I will sit back and watch the fireworks`...and it is so true!


    Wow, it has got very angry and heated...bree2012 you have put the cat amongst the pigeons... I hope you did not intend to do that???


    oh i am pretty sure is was her direct intention
    QUOTE:

    QUOTE:

    QUOTE:

    I'm just here for the show.

    *eating popcorn*


    Not much of a show right now.


    Does this mean I get a refund?


    Wait for a few more hours. Most people are nocturnal internet users.

    Well lets hope that people are not so easily worked up to a frenzy!!!!

    Why bother arguing about carbs/proteins if it works for you carry on ...if it doesn`t then try something else..

    CHILLAX .....it really isn`t worth getting heated about ;-))))
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
    Options
    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.
  • FairyMiss
    FairyMiss Posts: 1,812 Member
    Options
    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.


    I personally do not judge what is good for others.
    and ofcours i eat some carbs, i love my veggies. and do eat some grains and fruit on the weekends.
    but for myself i have to limit the greatly the majority of the time.
    25g or under during the week, and maybe up to 130-140 on weekends.


    so really saying i can't eat any carbs is not enirely true, i eat some, its inevitable.
    but those who try to say Atkins or really any of the low (notice i said low) carb diets dont allow ANY carbs is not entirely true either, and usually the result of making opinions with out the knowledge. i
    in other word dont judge the book by the cover
  • erinsueburns
    erinsueburns Posts: 865 Member
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    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    The thing is, some people might benefit from trying a different way, whether it is low carb, high carb, cutting out grains, or anything else. And some things are just so hard or even impossible to test for. Like insulin sensitivity or resistance, or cross reactive allergens. If I know someone has an allergy to grass then I often do recommend they cut out or cut down on grains because they are commonly cross reactive. If someone does poorly on either low carb or high carb then I often recommend they reverse out. The one thing I am pretty adamant about is the benefits of unsaturated fats. So while many recommendations are based on disease control, it doesn't mean it still isn't based on good advice, sometimes the treatment can also function as the prevention.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
    Options
    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    The thing is, some people might benefit from trying a different way, whether it is low carb, high carb, cutting out grains, or anything else. And some things are just so hard or even impossible to test for. Like insulin sensitivity or resistance, or cross reactive allergens. If I know someone has an allergy to grass then I often do recommend they cut out or cut down on grains because they are commonly cross reactive. If someone does poorly on either low carb or high carb then I often recommend they reverse out. The one thing I am pretty adamant about is the benefits of unsaturated fats. So while many recommendations are based on disease control, it doesn't mean it still isn't based on good advice, sometimes the treatment can also function as the prevention.

    Saying "you might want to try limiting XXX and see if it works for you" is not the same as saying "XXX is bad for you".
  • MrsPhan11
    MrsPhan11 Posts: 2,502 Member
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    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    Love this! I agree with every word.
  • dilysin
    dilysin Posts: 7 Member
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    I love carbs, they taste sensational, plus they give your brain an energy source, which is also good.. and they taste good (I think I already said that). And they don't make you fat, energy in > energy out makes you fat, the body is amazing, it can make fat out of everything, carbs not so much, it can happen, but there are terrible byproducts that are associated with some severe crapulance.

    now who wants some fairy bread..

    Oh and just because of my ignorance, or perhaps different terms for stuff, but here a medical degree makes you a doctor, ie a bachelor of medicine, and nothing else, does this mean you are a doctor azackery?
  • lockef
    lockef Posts: 466
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    Wow, ended up being a great turnout after all!

    Jolly good show everyone!

    *golf clap*

    Stay tuned... more low carb bashing to come.
  • hpsnickers1
    hpsnickers1 Posts: 2,783 Member
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    My father is on dialysis and my brother was diagnosed last year. I was heading down that same road - why I did my research. Not because it runs in my family, though, but because of the crap I was eating. We are all predisposed to diabetes. Genetics can play a very small factor. But our external environment and what we put in our bodies will play a much bigger factor. My brother's doctor is still pushing high-carb on him only in the form of whole grains and he thinks he will be taking a pill the rest of his life. No, he won't. Eventually those whole grains (which are broken down into simple sugars in our body) won't help him and he will have to start shots. Eventually the shots won't help him and his kidneys will start to shut down and he will end up on dialysis just like my father. It runs in my family (both sides) but I won't get it. Because I have stopped eating the things that would eventually cause it. Doctors don't heal (not all of them), they treat the symptom without trying to figure out the underlying cause. They would rather give you a pill and send you on your way.

    And eating low-carb boxed processed foods is not going low-carb. And those low-carb processed foods will cause depression and hair loss and gut issues. They won't heal you. To actually heal your body you have to go back to the basics. You have to eat foods your body knows and recognizes. Real food. Even Mrs. Atkins doesn't promote Atkins anymore because they now push low-carb processed, chemical laden boxed crap on people and call it healthy low-carb options. Those sugar alcohols will spike the blood sugar in a diabetic.

    And I don't think all carbs are evil. Vegetables can be important - mainly the dark leafy greens (but they aren't needed because you can get every essential nutrient from meat and fat - and the nutrients from whole grains are pointless if the body doesn't break them down - which they don't - ingestion does not equal digestion or absorption). And some fruit on occasion. I had dealt with anxiety disorder for about 20 years. I had dealt with depression my entire life. I have dealt with IBS, constant gas and bloating, sharp stabbing pains in my gut, hiatal hernia, acid reflux, indigestion, nervous stomach, bad sleep cycles. I have dealt with sciatica and low-back pain. My monthly cycle pain had been absolutely unbearable to the point it would wake me up at night and I wished I could just die so the pain would stop. I have dealt with Fibromyalgia - of course they wanted to give me a pill which I refused to take.

    I find it interesting how every single one of these issues went away when I went Primal (I eat a lot less fiber than I used to yet I am more regular than I have ever been). All of them. My gut is still healing but I know that will take time. I read success stories every week on Mark's Daily Apple. People are reversing PCOS, infertility, diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity (of course). I've read stories of parents that have brought their child out of autism by removing grains from the diet.

    I wish I would've known this 25 years ago. It would've made my adulthood a lot less painful. But at least I now that I won't spend the rest of my life collecting medications and hurting.
  • servilia
    servilia Posts: 3,452 Member
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    My father is on dialysis and my brother was diagnosed last year. I was heading down that same road - why I did my research. Not because it runs in my family, though, but because of the crap I was eating. We are all predisposed to diabetes. Genetics can play a very small factor. But our external environment and what we put in our bodies will play a much bigger factor. My brother's doctor is still pushing high-carb on him only in the form of whole grains and he thinks he will be taking a pill the rest of his life. No, he won't. Eventually those whole grains (which are broken down into simple sugars in our body) won't help him and he will have to start shots. Eventually the shots won't help him and his kidneys will start to shut down and he will end up on dialysis just like my father. It runs in my family (both sides) but I won't get it. Because I have stopped eating the things that would eventually cause it. Doctors don't heal (not all of them), they treat the symptom without trying to figure out the underlying cause. They would rather give you a pill and send you on your way.

    And eating low-carb boxed processed foods is not going low-carb. And those low-carb processed foods will cause depression and hair loss and gut issues. They won't heal you. To actually heal your body you have to go back to the basics. You have to eat foods your body knows and recognizes. Real food. Even Mrs. Atkins doesn't promote Atkins anymore because they now push low-carb processed, chemical laden boxed crap on people and call it healthy low-carb options. Those sugar alcohols will spike the blood sugar in a diabetic.

    And I don't think all carbs are evil. Vegetables can be important - mainly the dark leafy greens (but they aren't needed because you can get every essential nutrient from meat and fat - and the nutrients from whole grains are pointless if the body doesn't break them down - which they don't - ingestion does not equal digestion or absorption). And some fruit on occasion. I had dealt with anxiety disorder for about 20 years. I had dealt with depression my entire life. I have dealt with IBS, constant gas and bloating, sharp stabbing pains in my gut, hiatal hernia, acid reflux, indigestion, nervous stomach, bad sleep cycles. I have dealt with sciatica and low-back pain. My monthly cycle pain had been absolutely unbearable to the point it would wake me up at night and I wished I could just die so the pain would stop. I have dealt with Fibromyalgia - of course they wanted to give me a pill which I refused to take.

    I find it interesting how every single one of these issues went away when I went Primal (I eat a lot less fiber than I used to yet I am more regular than I have ever been). All of them. My gut is still healing but I know that will take time. I read success stories every week on Mark's Daily Apple. People are reversing PCOS, infertility, diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity (of course). I've read stories of parents that have brought their child out of autism by removing grains from the diet.

    I wish I would've known this 25 years ago. It would've made my adulthood a lot less painful. But at least I now that I won't spend the rest of my life collecting medications and hurting.

    Thanks for sharing your story and all the best for you and your fam!!
  • labgirl3
    labgirl3 Posts: 171 Member
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    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    Most people are eating low carb, not "no carb." I'm not sure where you're getting that. And by low carb, we mean low carb, not no grains. Most low carbers limit or avoid sugar, starchy veggies, and some fruits, in addition to grains (and flour). Some limit beans as well - depending on the person.

    That still leaves plenty of room for healthy, real food: meat, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, seeds, and some dairy.

    Just because you don't like hearing that grains are bad for you doesn't make it true. I wish that pasta, bagels, and bread was good for us too, but there is plenty of scientific research that says that those foods wreak havoc on your insulin levels, whether you're diabetic or not. I've not diabetic, I don't have celiac, and there's no gluten allergy that I know of. But I have lost 60 lbs. by going low carb, and my bloodwork is excellent (and much improved from my low fat, high carb days).

    I have a master's in molecular biology, and have read a LOT of books, articles, and scientific studies about nutrition. I'm no expert, but I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what goes on internally, on a cellular and molecular level especially. Again - just because you don't "feel" like the information is good, doesn't mean that you're right! Read the journals and studies. Do your own research.

    There's no way of eating that's going to fit every person out there. Some people (raising hand!) are very sensitive to carbs. Some people aren't. I do best on a low carb, whole foods diet. When I eat low fat / high carb, I am constantly hungry and want to binge on my low fat puddings, cereal, cookies, and jello. With low carb, those things will go bad in the fridge or pantry - I'm just not interested. Birthday and holiday parties are a breeze - a bite of cake is more than enough. My energy levels are through the roof. I don't believe moderation is the key at all, not for me at least.
  • Grokette
    Grokette Posts: 3,330 Member
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    I love carbs, they taste sensational, plus they give your brain an energy source, which is also good.. and they taste good (I think I already said that). And they don't make you fat, energy in > energy out makes you fat, the body is amazing, it can make fat out of everything, carbs not so much, it can happen, but there are terrible byproducts that are associated with some severe crapulance.

    now who wants some fairy bread..

    Oh and just because of my ignorance, or perhaps different terms for stuff, but here a medical degree makes you a doctor, ie a bachelor of medicine, and nothing else, does this mean you are a doctor azackery?

    You should really read Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why we get fat and what to do about it by Gary Taubes. Also, watching Fat Head for a look at how insulin production and how carbs do wreak havoc on the body really happens and how people get fat from the carbs due to insulin production because the body becomes resistant to it.

    It really is not as simple as energy in > energy out or calories in, calories out.
  • martinah4
    martinah4 Posts: 583 Member
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    Wow, ended up being a great turnout after all!

    Jolly good show everyone!

    *golf clap*

    Stay tuned... more low carb bashing to come.

    I'm a little late to the show...what'd I miss? Pass that bacon over here, please!
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
    Options
    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    Most people are eating low carb, not "no carb." I'm not sure where you're getting that. And by low carb, we mean low carb, not no grains. Most low carbers limit or avoid sugar, starchy veggies, and some fruits, in addition to grains (and flour). Some limit beans as well - depending on the person.

    That still leaves plenty of room for healthy, real food: meat, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, seeds, and some dairy.

    Just because you don't like hearing that grains are bad for you doesn't make it true. I wish that pasta, bagels, and bread was good for us too, but there is plenty of scientific research that says that those foods wreak havoc on your insulin levels, whether you're diabetic or not. I've not diabetic, I don't have celiac, and there's no gluten allergy that I know of. But I have lost 60 lbs. by going low carb, and my bloodwork is excellent (and much improved from my low fat, high carb days).

    I have a master's in molecular biology, and have read a LOT of books, articles, and scientific studies about nutrition. I'm no expert, but I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what goes on internally, on a cellular and molecular level especially. Again - just because you don't "feel" like the information is good, doesn't mean that you're right! Read the journals and studies. Do your own research.

    There's no way of eating that's going to fit every person out there. Some people (raising hand!) are very sensitive to carbs. Some people aren't. I do best on a low carb, whole foods diet. When I eat low fat / high carb, I am constantly hungry and want to binge on my low fat puddings, cereal, cookies, and jello. With low carb, those things will go bad in the fridge or pantry - I'm just not interested. Birthday and holiday parties are a breeze - a bite of cake is more than enough. My energy levels are through the roof. I don't believe moderation is the key at all, not for me at least.

    You quote me as if you are raising an argument, but then near the end say pretty much the same thing I said. that everyone is different and you need to find what works for you body.

    Except for this remark
    "I wish that pasta, bagels, and bread was good for us too, but there is plenty of scientific research that says that those foods wreak havoc on your insulin levels, whether you're diabetic or not."
    which is not true. If you mean non-whole grain pasta, bagels and bread, then yeah, there is plenty of evidence that is bad. But if you mean whole grain pasta, bagels and bread, then no, there is no evidence that this is bad for everyone.

    I'm not sure how the reference to your degree fit into the subject, but kudos on that anyway.
  • servilia
    servilia Posts: 3,452 Member
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    I love carbs, they taste sensational, plus they give your brain an energy source, which is also good.. and they taste good (I think I already said that). And they don't make you fat, energy in > energy out makes you fat, the body is amazing, it can make fat out of everything, carbs not so much, it can happen, but there are terrible byproducts that are associated with some severe crapulance.

    now who wants some fairy bread..

    Oh and just because of my ignorance, or perhaps different terms for stuff, but here a medical degree makes you a doctor, ie a bachelor of medicine, and nothing else, does this mean you are a doctor azackery?

    You should really read Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why we get fat and what to do about it by Gary Taubes. Also, watching Fat Head for a look at how insulin production and how carbs do wreak havoc on the body really happens and how people get fat from the carbs due to insulin production because the body becomes resistant to it.

    It really is not as simple as energy in > energy out or calories in, calories out.

    I agree, subject to my view that it's not ALL carbs.. just the wrong kind of carbs (I know you probably meant this and forgot to specify) or too much carbs for a given time period. In addition to the sources you mentioned, there's also a good talk/speech by Dr. Robert Lustig called "Sugar - the Bitter Truth" which explains the body's treatment of fructose (when not in fruit) and specifically, high fructose corn syrup. Very eye opening and goes beyond insulin.
    I agree that all calories are not the same. The body's chemistry is more complicated than that.
  • linsben
    linsben Posts: 108 Member
    Options
    Personally, I don't believe anyone that says that they don't eat carbs or that they are not good for them. I can only assume that they mean grains and not carbs, since carbs are found in pretty much every food.

    The thing that does bother me a bit is people telling others that whole grains are bad for them. And if you read enough of the thread it almost always turns out to be someone with a disease - diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, gluten allergy, etc. And I wonder why are they saying something is bad for everyone when they must know it's bad for them because of the disease? Misery loves company??

    There are some people on this site that are clueless about nutrition and giving them information about disease control as if it is good information for those without the disease is irresponsible and kind of mean.

    Most people are eating low carb, not "no carb." I'm not sure where you're getting that. And by low carb, we mean low carb, not no grains. Most low carbers limit or avoid sugar, starchy veggies, and some fruits, in addition to grains (and flour). Some limit beans as well - depending on the person.

    That still leaves plenty of room for healthy, real food: meat, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, seeds, and some dairy.

    Just because you don't like hearing that grains are bad for you doesn't make it true. I wish that pasta, bagels, and bread was good for us too, but there is plenty of scientific research that says that those foods wreak havoc on your insulin levels, whether you're diabetic or not. I've not diabetic, I don't have celiac, and there's no gluten allergy that I know of. But I have lost 60 lbs. by going low carb, and my bloodwork is excellent (and much improved from my low fat, high carb days).

    I have a master's in molecular biology, and have read a LOT of books, articles, and scientific studies about nutrition. I'm no expert, but I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what goes on internally, on a cellular and molecular level especially. Again - just because you don't "feel" like the information is good, doesn't mean that you're right! Read the journals and studies. Do your own research.

    There's no way of eating that's going to fit every person out there. Some people (raising hand!) are very sensitive to carbs. Some people aren't. I do best on a low carb, whole foods diet. When I eat low fat / high carb, I am constantly hungry and want to binge on my low fat puddings, cereal, cookies, and jello. With low carb, those things will go bad in the fridge or pantry - I'm just not interested. Birthday and holiday parties are a breeze - a bite of cake is more than enough. My energy levels are through the roof. I don't believe moderation is the key at all, not for me at least.

    YUP! I dont have diabetes, celiac disease, insulin resistance, or gluten allergy like you said most people who are low carb no grainers are. and ive done a lot of research myself. I'm one of the people telling you grains are bad for you because i believe they are based on what i've learned from the books that i've sought out the info from. I dont really think it's wrong to tell people what i've learnt or what i beleive may or may not be good for them . We all may word it differently or say different strokes for different folks all we want but i'm going to stand by every time i've told someone that grains are bad for them. and if that bothers someone then thats ok. They can take in that info and do with it what they please, because essentially we're all telling someone what we belive to be corect based on some info we all got somewhere. All the carbohydrates my body needs i give it from vegetables. I dont need bread or pasta or rice or even potatoes. I dont eat them just because i want them. I'm trying to refine my diet to what is optimal for my health and my body. In my opinion, what is optimal is what our ancestors ate before the agricultural revolution allowed us to begin processing grains on a massive scale.
    So there ya are. Grains are bad for you. Disagree all you like. Mmmmmmmm salad
  • labgirl3
    labgirl3 Posts: 171 Member
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    You quote me as if you are raising an argument, but then near the end say pretty much the same thing I said. that everyone is different and you need to find what works for you body.

    I guess I missed the part of your post that implied that a low carb diet could be a good choice for some. Instead, you insinuated that people on low carb diets were liars and/or ignorant. You also posted a number of comments that suggested you really had no clue what a low carb diet entails. Like this one:
    That's sad. There aren't many foods that don't have carbs. What do you eat? Or do you just have to eat them and suffer?

    And also:
    JUST bacon would be pretty sad to me. I suppose you could take supplements to get nutrients but still, that would be a pretty boring diet. And, since it does have some carbs if you actually ate enough bacon to be full you might still have problems if your body didn't like carbs.
    I'm not sure how the reference to your degree fit into the subject, but kudos on that anyway.

    You implied there were people who were clueless about nutrition, giving out bad advice. I was pointing out that while I wasn't an expert, I'm not exactly clueless either, and I've done years of research. I wasn't asking for kudos on my degree - but thanks anyway!