Keto made me sick as a dog!
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gemiller87 wrote: »Rat study. The problem is the effect that pure sugar might have on a rat may not translate to having sugar as part of meal in humans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6234835/ if you'd like to read more about its relation to human biology direct from the US Library of Medicine rather than just say "rats mean its invalid"... Either way i'm done with this discussion. Some of you are so set on "fake news" because of some exaggerated statements you are unwilling to look for the grains of truth in it.
I am a diabetic and can assure you that sugar alone is not the reason for big swings in blood sugar numbers, that show up on glucose meters. Other things could be the food we eat, that are not sugar driven like rice, pasta and so on. Also stress is well known, as being sick for driving blood sugar numbers out of whack.
I personally feel that many have come to state sugar is evil bad, addictive and so on. If you want to believe that so be it. But then that is on each person for allowing that to happen. But really it is sugar combined with fat, and some good old white flour that really drives the blood sugar numbers way high. I think many people find it easier to say sugar is addictive than holding themselves responsible/accountable. And that is not FAKE news it is real as it gets.8 -
gemiller87 wrote: »Rat study. The problem is the effect that pure sugar might have on a rat may not translate to having sugar as part of meal in humans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6234835/ if you'd like to read more about its relation to human biology direct from the US Library of Medicine rather than just say "rats mean its invalid"... Either way i'm done with this discussion. Some of you are so set on "fake news" because of some exaggerated statements you are unwilling to look for the grains of truth in it.
More rat studies.
I do not rule out that the pleasure seeking response might make it harder for some people. I also think that some people really struggle with impulse control but those people need help. I believe the widespread obesity problem though is cause by people who do not exercise their normal and far superior to rats amount of impulse control.
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crooked_left_hook wrote: »Ugh never again! I was throwing up, diarrhea,dizzy and just sick from eating this way,I'll never do it again, anybody else not have this WOE work for them?
You might want to get your gallbladder checked out. As others have said, they can’t do keto because they had thier gallbladder removed and high fat makes them sick (I’m one of those people). When you have gallstones you can have the symptoms when you heat something high in fat, symptoms which are exactly what you described (you might also have pain in your abdomen or mid back back around where your liver is). Having gallstones doesn’t necessarily mean the gallbladder needs to be removed but it’s good to know if you have them so you can avoid the goods that cause issues or can make the gallstones worse. Unfortunately two of the lesser known causes of gallstones is rapid weight loss (my boyfriend and I both had our gallbladders removed for this reason) and use of birthcontrol pills. Just something to keep in mind.
I'm used to eating foods high in fat with no problems usually but the fat/protein combo really threw me for a loop! I do think it's a bit of a fad but figured I'd be eating my favorite foods so it would be a great way to eat,I also struggle with blood sugar instability and thought this would be a good way to balance that,I did the research on electrolytes before starting so I don't think that was the issue but the gallbladder theory is making me wonder cuz in addition to feeling sick I also had terrible back pain which I thought was maybe kidney strain from too much protein and magnesium supplements 🤷 anyways whatever the reason it's not something I'll attempt again,I'm much happier and healthier just eating less of the foods that I like,thanks everyone for the replies 💗6 -
gemiller87 wrote: »gemiller87 wrote: »I did a short run of "Keto" as part of fasting sugar out of my diet for a month. The first week seemed ok, week two was rough and by end of the third week I was ok. By end of week four I was fine with it. I did reintroduce a more balanced carb intake but remained low sugar. I borrowed a blood glucose monitor from a diabetic family member and found there is notable change and steadiness from the keto platform. Doesn't mean it's the only solution.
If you weren't low sugar before, don't forget that sugar is one of the most addicting substances in the world and removal of it truly can feel like withdrawal.
While some people have difficulty moderating sugar, calling it one of the most addicting substances in the world is just specious, false hyperbole.
Unfortunately science in general disagrees with you even though health people definitely stretch the truth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23719144
https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug
https://www.newhallhospital.co.uk/news/is-sugar-more-addictive-than-cocaine
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281920449_Is_sugar_more_addictive_than_cocaine
Now if you're referring to the bodies need for it to grow like a narcotic to keep the same "high" is a different argument and obviously the "damaging side" of addiction is far from comparable and grossly exaggerated to a legit drug addiction, but it's addictive tendencies are stronger than you are willing to admit.
Sugar actives the brains reward system like a drug releasing dopamine. In this regard the body does grow its "need" of sugar for the dopamine release, but its not a functional requirement for bodily systems like some other drug addictions. The chemical response to sugar is one of the reasons sugary snacks are closely tied to emotional eating, they release the drug effect making it a soothing response.
It's important to acknowledge also that a change in your blood sugar patterns affects how you feel, so a big change in sugar intake will change how you you feel straight up.
The problem with trying to link a dopamine response to sugar being addictive is that there are literally hundreds of things that humans come into contact with on a daily basis that also cause a dopamine response in the brain. Just to name a few of them: petting a puppy, laughing, holding a baby, a lover's touch, seeing something that makes you happy, etc and so-on. Do you think we are addicted to all of these things as well (and if we are, should we give them up)?8 -
Those are likely perfectly good keto macros, especially when you were at a deficit, even though some will claim that lower is necessary (and not like being in ketosis really matters, it's likely just the low carb that makes it more sustainable/reduces hunger for some).
When I tried it out I looked at a lot of sources and saw that 50 g net was probably ketosis for a reasonably active person of my size. I tried for 50 g total, found it impossible (I eat a lot of vegetables), so went with no more than 35 g net, 60 g total, which worked out to about 15% at 1600. Protein at 100 g (or 25%), and then fat at 60%, so same as you.
I didn't find it difficult, although I missed some of the carbs I'd been eating (like fruit, potatoes, beans and lentils) and consider them healthy, so didn't stick with it (I'd been happy with my diet pre keto, and was just doing it as an experiment). With healthy sources of fat (limiting sat fat) and keeping the carbs mostly non starchy veg plus nuts and seeds and occasional greek yogurt, I found it to be a reasonably healthful way of eating, although more restrictive than my prior way. I added some salt to my diet when first transitioning, and didn't ever feel sick.
For whatever it's worth, macro percentages don't seem to matter much for me -- I felt find on that diet and have on lower fat diets too.
Totally agree. I have done every macro combo under the sun and always felt fine. Even did the opposite of keto (80/10/10) and I felt great. I'm a runner so eating 80% carbs totally worked for me when I did it. The only difference between all these other diets and macros for me was that I have only reached my goal weight while in ketosis and it's the only diet I've been able to stick to, and at the same time stray from for a period, but easily transition back to. Oh...and my running has been better than ever. Can't say it's due to keto, more than likely it's my lighter body weight, but I am somewhat amazed that I'm able to run over 2 hours on fat and ketones and afterwards I always seem to have energy to spare. Also ran a 5K recently and ran way faster than my normal pace...but on this I admit, it was probably due to the donut I ate 30 minutes prior. It was awesome.
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gemiller87 wrote: »gemiller87 wrote: »I did a short run of "Keto" as part of fasting sugar out of my diet for a month. The first week seemed ok, week two was rough and by end of the third week I was ok. By end of week four I was fine with it. I did reintroduce a more balanced carb intake but remained low sugar. I borrowed a blood glucose monitor from a diabetic family member and found there is notable change and steadiness from the keto platform. Doesn't mean it's the only solution.
If you weren't low sugar before, don't forget that sugar is one of the most addicting substances in the world and removal of it truly can feel like withdrawal.
While some people have difficulty moderating sugar, calling it one of the most addicting substances in the world is just specious, false hyperbole.
Unfortunately science in general disagrees with you even though health people definitely stretch the truth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23719144
https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug
https://www.newhallhospital.co.uk/news/is-sugar-more-addictive-than-cocaine
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281920449_Is_sugar_more_addictive_than_cocaine
Now if you're referring to the bodies need for it to grow like a narcotic to keep the same "high" is a different argument and obviously the "damaging side" of addiction is far from comparable and grossly exaggerated to a legit drug addiction, but it's addictive tendencies are stronger than you are willing to admit.
Sugar actives the brains reward system like a drug releasing dopamine. In this regard the body does grow its "need" of sugar for the dopamine release, but its not a functional requirement for bodily systems like some other drug addictions. The chemical response to sugar is one of the reasons sugary snacks are closely tied to emotional eating, they release the drug effect making it a soothing response.
It's important to acknowledge also that a change in your blood sugar patterns affects how you feel, so a big change in sugar intake will change how you you feel straight up.
The problem with trying to link a dopamine response to sugar being addictive is that there are literally hundreds of things that humans come into contact with on a daily basis that also cause a dopamine response in the brain. Just to name a few of them: petting a puppy, laughing, holding a baby, a lover's touch, seeing something that makes you happy, etc and so-on. Do you think we are addicted to all of these things as well (and if we are, should we give them up)?
Right and food can be used to add to the pleasure of a holiday, vacation, or special occasion. The problem is that we should not live or lives as though it is a vacation just like we can't do nothing all day but pet a puppy.
I am guilty of trying to make an ordinary weekend "special" with food and I gained weight because of it. It was a blind spot like I am sure it is for many people.
Choosing high calorie food is a learned habit. Being sedentary is a learned habit. I think the reason why people jump to believing it is an addiction because they can be hard to break.
Where the pleasure center can really bite a person, I believe, is by going into a really highly food restrictive diet. If you deny yourself everything you enjoy it may backfire on you.3 -
I need at least 30g of fiber daily to feel good so I could never do keto. I am a huge fruit and veggie eater and feel they are some of the best foods to eat so refuse to give them up.9
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gemiller87 wrote: »Rat study. The problem is the effect that pure sugar might have on a rat may not translate to having sugar as part of meal in humans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6234835/ if you'd like to read more about its relation to human biology direct from the US Library of Medicine rather than just say "rats mean its invalid"... Either way i'm done with this discussion. Some of you are so set on "fake news" because of some exaggerated statements you are unwilling to look for the grains of truth in it.
A couple of studies suggesting it might be a thing in no way translates to "don't forget that sugar is one of the most addicting substances in the world and removal of it truly can feel like withdrawal". If you're going to post hyperbole in a thread here, you're going to get push-back. If you drastically change the amount of sugar in your diet, there will be physical side effects. I'm gonna guess meth addiction and withdrawal is a little worse. There are currently researchers doing studies to see if sugar is physically or behaviorally addictive. That doesn't mean it's proven scientific fact... that takes years and dozens of peer reviewed and replicated studies showing a clear link with little or no conflicting data.
Interestingly, the cited article, despite having a little on sugar specifically, is mostly about so-called "highly palatable foods," and if you look at the addictiveness measures of foods that the people responsible for that article (like Nicole Avena) have used, plain sugar foods don't score the highest. Foods like pizza and fries tend to be high -- mixed macros, salt, lots of other qualities than just sugar.
Although I don't discount a possible connection or similarities between what we could call eating addiction (which I think isn't really about the type of food) and other psychological addictions, there were other things in that article that raised some obvious questions, like:
"Population studies carried out using both YFAS and recently YFAS 2.0 have detected a prevalence of food addicts from as low as 5.4% to as high as 56% depending on the population studied"
Um, quite a difference.
"When considering the association between FA and BMI, close to 20% were obese and little over 40% were underweight (248)."
Interesting.
"One could speculate on the reason of this disparate result. Addictive mechanisms serve a homeostatic function so that if food is scarce one will seek it and binge when found. Additionally, those in the underweight category may be dieting or displaying restrained eating patterns which can increase reward sensitivity for food."6 -
The french fries are a mystery. The pizza sauce has hidden sugar in it!!
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nighthawk584 wrote: »that is fair...that being said, my Doctor put me on 100 carb diet (I'm sure she got this basic info from her 2 nutrition classes) and said nothing about staying at a calorie deficit.. I did this and even went lower to around 50-75 carbs. and put myself on deficit. 77 lbs later and still losing, I am now eating 150-250 carbs a day and my A1C dropped from 6.1 last april to 5.2 just two weeks ago. Cholesterol went from 228 to 151! can't imagine anywhere near the success on KETO and a high fat diet, let alone being miserable as hell on such low carbs!
I'll have been on the "keto" diet. My blood glucose level went from 190 to 100. I have no cholesterol problem and no hypertension. I keep in touch with my cardiologist who seems like you saying, "95 percent of diets don't last!"
I went on a diet when I was 10. There has not been a diet I haven't been a part of -- until five years ago when I had my stroke. I contracted septic pneumonia in March when the glucose in my body shot up 400s. The doctors only 50/50 chance to live. I did. When I got to June or July it kept 190-210. CICO wasn't working for me. I needed to get my blood sugars down. "Keto" helped with that.7 -
I tried it and didnt lose weight even being in a calorie deficit. It just wasnt for me.3
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It's just not for everyone.
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gemiller87 wrote: »Rat study. The problem is the effect that pure sugar might have on a rat may not translate to having sugar as part of meal in humans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6234835/ if you'd like to read more about its relation to human biology direct from the US Library of Medicine rather than just say "rats mean its invalid"... Either way i'm done with this discussion. Some of you are so set on "fake news" because of some exaggerated statements you are unwilling to look for the grains of truth in it.
Personally I found the last study you linked incredibly interesting since they used Saccharine instead of sugar in the test. Thank you so much for sharing this. I've been struggling in maintenance and wondered if my sugar substitutes had anything to do with it. I just want to mention that I use them excessively not just occasionally which likely wouldn't be a problem. It does answer the question I had about whether it was affecting my efforts to relose about 15 pounds. The more I eat of them the more I crave despite the intestinal upset. Might need to cut them out for a while.
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What you are describing is what is commonly referred to as the "Keto Flu". It comes from an electrolyte imbalance that comes from the drastic cut in carbs. This can sometimes be lessened by increasing electrolyte intake. The symptoms last a couple of days to a couple of weeks, and then it balances itself out.
However there is no reason to put yourself through that for weight loss, as weight loss comes from a calorie deficit, and you can still eat plenty of carbs and lose weight. I've lost 40 pounds, at times eating 300+ grams of carbs per day.
I enjoy how we basically said the same thing in our comments, but I ended up with 10 people disagreeing with me LOL.4 -
I tried low carb but a lot of fat makes me feel sick, I don't have a gallbladder so that could be why. I still mostly eat non starchy veg but the only fat I eat is a little olive oil or milk with fat. Anything fried, fatty meat, and oily food makes me feel awful.
On the topic of sugar, I always drank diet soda so I've never just consumed straight sugar. I do crave sugary foods and am awful at moderating them so I don't keep them in the house. They do have fat too though I have to watch it with light ice cream as well. I personally feel it's more mental, at least in my case. I was dependent on a painkiller from long-term use and on nicotine, I've never physically shook or threw up from sugar withdrawal as I did coming off them.1 -
gemiller87 wrote: »gemiller87 wrote: »I did a short run of "Keto" as part of fasting sugar out of my diet for a month. The first week seemed ok, week two was rough and by end of the third week I was ok. By end of week four I was fine with it. I did reintroduce a more balanced carb intake but remained low sugar. I borrowed a blood glucose monitor from a diabetic family member and found there is notable change and steadiness from the keto platform. Doesn't mean it's the only solution.
If you weren't low sugar before, don't forget that sugar is one of the most addicting substances in the world and removal of it truly can feel like withdrawal.
While some people have difficulty moderating sugar, calling it one of the most addicting substances in the world is just specious, false hyperbole.
Unfortunately science in general disagrees with you even though health people definitely stretch the truth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23719144
https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug
https://www.newhallhospital.co.uk/news/is-sugar-more-addictive-than-cocaine
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281920449_Is_sugar_more_addictive_than_cocaine
Now if you're referring to the bodies need for it to grow like a narcotic to keep the same "high" is a different argument and obviously the "damaging side" of addiction is far from comparable and grossly exaggerated to a legit drug addiction, but it's addictive tendencies are stronger than you are willing to admit.
Sugar actives the brains reward system like a drug releasing dopamine. In this regard the body does grow its "need" of sugar for the dopamine release, but its not a functional requirement for bodily systems like some other drug addictions. The chemical response to sugar is one of the reasons sugary snacks are closely tied to emotional eating, they release the drug effect making it a soothing response.
It's important to acknowledge also that a change in your blood sugar patterns affects how you feel, so a big change in sugar intake will change how you you feel straight up.
From the first article, which I don't think supports your argument as fully as you believe it does (Sure, the abstract . It also discusses "hyper-palatable foods" which it defines as foods high in added sugar and/or fat. The role of fat in making these foods hyper-palatable seems to usually be left off the table. Personally, I limit my own consumption of added sugar, saturated fat, and trans fat. And I do combat using labels like "addictive" when substances have not been scientifically classified as such. It definitely catches peoples' attention, but then when they read an abstract such as the first one you linked they can leave without being fully informed.- However, although the concept of food and sugar addiction is gaining momentum, it is also currently a subject of intense debate and no solid evidence-based consensus has emerged yet[20–22,23&,24&&].
- Unlike sugar, drugs of abuse, except ethanol, are non-nutritive molecules that, once self-administered(e.g., through inhalation or via the intravenous route), quickly cross the blood-brain barrier to physically interact and interfere with specific endogenous molecular substrates and processes,generally at the surface of brain cells [28].
- In most cases, however, the magnitude of the experienced psychoactive effects of sweet foods is mild and does not seem to match those of drugs. In other words, sweet foods are clearly not as behaviorally and/or psychologically toxic as drugs of abuse can be, especially at high doses.For instance, unlike drugs, consumption of hyper-palatable foods, even extremely high in sugar, does not produce any abnormal mental state or change in behavioral disposition.
- If any, foods rich in sugar seem to produce more advantageous effects on decision-making and self-control than disadvantageous ones. For instance, sugar has been shown to boost self-control under some circumstances [39]. Sugar and sweetness can also promote helping attitude and thereby encourage cooperation among people [40]
- However, solid evidence for the food-drug analogy is still scant and most of it is based on poorly validated inter-subjective comparisons and evaluations by people with drug addiction who are clearly not representative of the general population currently exposed to foods high in sugar.
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kshama2001 wrote: »I love fat, but too much of it and I feel nauseous.
I like moderate carbs, fat, and protein, so have no interest in trying keto.
I may do an experiment with limiting added sugar for a month just to be able to comment on statements like this from my own n=1:gemiller87 wrote: »...If you weren't low sugar before, don't forget that sugar is one of the most addicting substances in the world and removal of it truly can feel like withdrawal.
I have started the limiting added sugar for a month experiment.
10/23: 85 g
10/24: 48 g
10/25: 26 g
My goal is to keep to the WHO recommendations of no more than 5% added sugar.
Others in the challenge have their own goals: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10769530/30-day-logging-limiting-added-sugar-challenge/p12 -
It wasn't for me either. I did have some digestive issues (not as violent as yours), but that wasn't the worst of it. I was constantly hungry and tired, black hole kind of hungry. I was miserable and my anxiety and depression reached levels I had never experienced before. That was the worst of it. I don't want to ever feel like that again if I can help it.2
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I'm wanting to post a gif of Brian from the Family Guy upchucking. But the mods would throw me in jail.2
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Guys, please do not go down this route of sugar addiction. If you want to have that conversation, create another thread please.
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OP, as a few others have states the issues were likely driven by an electrolyte imbalance. As you deplete carbs, glycogen and insulin levels are release, which depletes electrolyte levels. To offset that, you will need to consume 3000-5000mg of salt a day.
Second, for the comment about cardiologist. My wife's cardiologist (electrophysiologist), primary care and OBGYN commend my wife for going low carb/keto.
Third, one of the things I have noticed when a lot of people go keto, is they often focus too much on fat and that doesn't sit well with their stomachs. Too often do people thing that more fat = better and will put butter/coconut oil/oils all over meats and it makes for an unpleasant experience. Or they will take it even further and make fat bombs because more fat = more ketones.
But just like any diet, there are good and bad ways to implement it. IME, a person should rarely go from a fairly high carb diet directly into a keto diet. I would suggest slowly decreasing carbs and increasing fat/sodium. This allows it to be a more sustainable approach. Also, keep in mind, that just because you are doing keto, doesn't mean you can't have a cheat meal once and a while. When I was in Hawaii, it was Ahi Tuna season and I have poke with rice every day. My weight did go up, but it came back down when I went keto again.
But in the end, if you don't feel a diet is sustainable, move to another diet strategy.5 -
I have cycled in and out of Keto, and it's always the same; I feel great, no cravings, sleep well, BUT, it messes with my electrolytes! A lot of Keto groups will tell you not to drink all the water you want (because it makes you thirsty), and to add additional sodium and potassium to your diet.
Truth be told, I felt much better on a low carb--but not Keto-- way of eating, and consistently getting 20 or fewer net carbs per day was making me miserable with no appreciable benefits. I was losing weight my way, and feeling terrific---and occasionally would go into Keto due to a low carb day or lots of exercise, or a long overnight fast.
Unless there is a medical reason to do Keto, I think lowering carbs overall gives one the same benefits without having to guzzle pickle juice and avoid a slice of apple in favor of the bit of carbs found in a tablespoon of ketchup. For me, it's no way to live. More power to those it works for, but it's too restrictive for me, and there is absolutely no reason for me to eat that way.2 -
PS: The needing to eat a lot of salt continues with Keto. You don't "acclimate" to it eventually. I got tired of constant electrolyte headaches and peeing my brains out unless I was eating 3,500 mg of salt a day. For me, that didn't seem healthy. Plus, I enjoy food. A lot of the "low carb substitute" frankenfoods aren't healthy to me. I avoid processed stuff. I see nothing wrong with adding in plenty of non-starchy veggies, and keeping the carbs to under 100 total per day. Not keto, but a real improvement.1
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iheartmyyorkie wrote: »I'm wanting to post a gif of Brian from the Family Guy upchucking. But the mods would throw me in jail.
Isn't that the episode when he makes out with Quagmire's dad then finds out the she is a he? Best episode ever!!😂🤣1 -
I’m not the biggest fan of keto, but is it possible you had a touch of the flu or food poisoning that had the bad timing to occur as you started your new way of eating?0
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I is wrong to call Keto a fad. It has been around since around 1920 when it was developed to treat seizures (before we had seizure medications) and is still used to treat that. Furthermore there is an increased body of research that show the benefit of low carb and higher fat/protein. Low carb diet was described in the 19th century by Banting (1860) and Dr. Osler (of Johns Hopkins).
Cutting down carbs and only eating three meals a will make a significant difference not only on weight - but also on metabolic health. Being thin on the outside does not equal good health.
Many people have difficulty cutting down carbs because it is an addictive substance (well supported scientifically).
I can highly recommend Gary Taubes book "good calories - bad calories"1
This discussion has been closed.
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