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What are your thoughts on Keto?
Replies
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foolforcarbos wrote: »From the National Library of Medicines, in conjunction with the National Center for Biotechnology Information and the National Institutes of Health:
Food Addiction, High Glycemic Index Carbohydrates and Obesity
After reviewing the pertinent literature on food addiction with a specific focus on the role of high glycemic index carbohydrates in triggering addictive symptoms. Three lines of evidence support the concept of food addiction: (1) behavioral responses to certain foods are similar compared to substances of abuse; (2) food intake regulation and addiction rely on similar neurobiological circuits; (3) individuals suffering from obesity or addiction show similar neurochemical- and brain activation patterns.
High glycemic index carbohydrates elicit a rapid shift in blood glucose and insulin levels, akin to the pharmacokinetics of addictive substances. Akin to drugs of abuse, glucose and insulin signals in the mesolimbic system to modify dopamine concentration. Sugar elicits addiction-like craving and self-reported problem foods are rich in high glycemic index carbohydrates. These properties make high glycemic index carbohydrates plausible triggers for food addiction.
Summary
Food addiction is a plausible etiological factor contributing to the heterogeneous condition and phenotype of obesity. In at least a subset of vulnerable individuals, high glycemic index carbohydrates trigger addiction-like neurochemical and behavioral responses.
Do you honestly believe companies are just spending R&D money to create cravings based on a lack of willpower, over addiction?
Keto is a lifestyle choice. It is not a science, per se, but for severe diabetics, doctors have been subscribing a Keto diet to patience since somewhere around 1915. That's the earliest prescription found on how to achieve eating and getting into Ketosis that I have found, thus far.
Truthfully, most would say studies really looking into carbohydrate addiction didn't come about until after 2011.
Keto is a way for obese people, diabetics, and others to learn what is in their food and how to manage that food.
There is Keto, Dirty Keto, Low Carb, and other variants. Most diets have had some form or another and have been around for a long time. Long enough to have studies, science, and some depth of understanding.
Telling an obese person they simply lack willpower and self control instead of saying you will help them with their addiction, would be shattering for most. In fact, most obese people stay obese. So the line of thought that there is no addiction and only a lack of willpower would be psychological torture, in many cases.
Comparing a carbo or food addiction to alcohol may be actually more relatable than you think. If you think all alcoholics can't function with any amount of alcohol, and thus, they can't limit their intake to a few beers a day, then you clearly do not understand a true alcoholic. If you knew what an alcoholic is, then you would know that some may only binge once a year and get so plastered drunk, they black out. But it doesn't matter that it is only that one time a year, and that they drink all year long, that one time still classifies them as an alcoholic. So to say your analogy just tells me you haven't walked that path and have no understanding about alcoholism and behavioral effects. Sorry, but I feel you are completely wrong.
And so, a person can, especially with the way corporations are creating our processed foods, can be addicted. Do you believe low fat foods are healthy? Or do you understand low fat simply means they take the fat out and then add things they believe will make you want more of their food.
The Keto person will understand that low fat flavored yogurts, as an example, are not healthy but that a simple yogurt is, and then they can flavor that themselves. How do they know? They read the labels. Plain yogurt is one ingredient. Not things you can't pronounce. Why does coke have have sodium? Doesn't need it. Doesn't improve the taste. But it does make one thirsty. Thus, to make sure you don't taste the salt, they add more sugar. There once was a product, like Coke, (Royal Crown) that didn't add the salt and had a lot less sugar. Coke moved them out.
When Coke products started to decline as people were downsizing or talk of taxes were increasingly possible on all fountain soda sugar drinks, energy drinks were becoming the rage. Coke bought them next. They own Monster and several others. Truthfully, there are only 10 companies that make all our processed foods. Ten. And if you think they are not spending millions to get people addicted - and that there is a whole mass of folks walking around that are simply lacking willpower, then you're just putting people down to elevate yourself. Please, know that alcoholics aren't people who can't drink. Ever. Many many are fully functional and yet because they lose control at some point, whether binging on weekends, holidays, or that once a year Bday, they are able to conceal their addictions and consume in moderation for most the time. Most.
I think eating addiction is a thing.
I don't think food addiction (or carb addiction) is a thing.
But most significant, the foods that are supposedly most addictive are mixed carbs and fat and (often) salt or sugar. For example, pizza, which is high fat; fries, which are high fat; and not roasted potatoes (mostly carb) or apples (mostly carb). Some argue (I disagree) that cheese is addictive, and personally I do find cheese and salted nuts somewhat hard to limit. I had (lazy, wanted to watch the primary returns) some rice and beans plus veg for dinner tonight (high carb/somewhat processed) and had no desire to overeat.
So no, the claim that carbs=processed food is silly, and so is keto=no processed food and carbs=addictive.17 -
I haven't tried because I know I'd be miserable . I love my food 🤷♀️. But if it works for you that's great1
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lemurcat2, I never said whole foods do not have carbs. But the discussion was not just Keto understanding, but in my post, obesity. Yes, there are whole carbohydrates found in natural foods, and refined carbohydrates. Yes, apples and roasted potatoes are whole foods, and thus have whole carbohydrates. But most people are buying things with a label, and were taught to purchase low fat items. Almost everything that has a label, not all, but most, have refined carbohydrates. The natural fiber has been taken out and replaced with a host of things that most people can't pronounce. Hence the label. Apples and potatoes don't really come with a label, do they?
There were, last I checked, just over 60 ways for a company to list sugar as an ingredient. There is probably over 20 ways to list MSG. Saying carbs=processed food is silly may make you feel better, but that's simply not the truth. Unless you shop along the walls of a typical grocery store, almost all the food down the aisles has been processed. And so, too, have all the carbs. Most comes in packages, with long shelf lifes, and expiration dates. Most has been stripped of nutrients and fiber and has a host of additives.
Saying Keto=no processed food is silly, as well, may make you feel better but that's one of the keys to Keto, reading labels. Avoiding processed foods. Avoiding certain ingredients. Some go as far as not consuming an item because there may have been an animal feed corn to produce the raw product that was used to prepare the item one is looking to purchase, and thus they conclude that that corn had GMOs and thus, one should avoid that food. Or that the item has corn syrups and thus, there were GMOs in the corn. Which is just sugar. There are some who are very strict about their Keto.
Saying carbs are not addictive, takes out the whole discussion of excitotoxins. But that's probably too much for one response for you. Cheers. Enjoy what you eat.
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I've eaten keto for years. I just plain feel better. I have been on so many diets over the years...shakes, points, cards, injections, and just plain CICO. None of them resonated with me the way keto does. I never have nightmares about not eating bread; I do have nightmares about being forced to eat meat...I never eat swine (or most other meats), I rarely have butter and I rarely have grains. I never feel deprived of a food group. To suggest that people who eat keto by choice or by culture, are deprived is non-sensical. Do you truly believe that vegetarians or people who do not eat pork based on their faith are depriving themselves?! Bah!
If keto works for you, do it. If it doesn't find something else. I'd also like to add that diets don't fail--people do.
"Diets dont fail, people do" - sounds like a silly catch phrase to me.
yes, Keto eaters are depriving themselves of carbs
Vegetarians are depriving themselves of meat.
that doesnt mean the deprivation is a bad thing - if it is worth it to you, for whatever reason, then that is good.
But for most people the keto deprivations are not worth it.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The number one reason people fail at Keto is our carb addiction.
The number one reason people fail at Keto is because generally speaking Keto is too extreme...
Since I can eat what I want on Keto why do you call it extreme?
the point was that it is too extreme for most people - that is what generally speaking means.
If it suits you and you can eat what you want on it that's fine.
But for most people the restrictions are too extreme for them to continue with it.
Bit like the Paleo fad of a year or so back - for most people the restrictions were too extreme and now the honeymoon phase is over, most people have stopped following it.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The number one reason people fail at Keto is our carb addiction.
The number one reason people fail at Keto is because generally speaking Keto is too extreme...
Since I can eat what I want on Keto why do you call it extreme?
Your n=1 does not tease out to most of the general population...10 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The number one reason people fail at Keto is our carb addiction.
The number one reason people fail at Keto is because generally speaking Keto is too extreme...
Since I can eat what I want on Keto why do you call it extreme?
Can you eat carbs on Keto? Oh wait, I forgot that you can't eat them regardless because of your "addiction"...6 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The number one reason people fail at Keto is our carb addiction.
The number one reason people fail at Keto is because generally speaking Keto is too extreme...
Since I can eat what I want on Keto why do you call it extreme?
Your n=1 does not tease out to most of the general population...
besides which, just because he's eating what he wants, doesn't mean he isn't depriving himself - he just happens to want the things that fits within the diet's limitations. The fact is, that he can't just eat anything that might grab his fancy if he wants to remain in ketosis, which means by definition he is still depriving himself by eliminating certain foods from his diet. Keto works fine for him because the things that he wants and craves naturally falls within the parameters of the diet, thus he doesn't feel "deprived". that's great for him, but that certainly doesn't apply across the board to everyone, and I find it rather capricious to conclude that just because one person may desire higher carb foods that they are then automatically considered "addicted" to them; if that is the case, then wouldn't one also be able to conclude that if that person happens to crave low-carb foods, they are then "addicted" to those items as well?11 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The number one reason people fail at Keto is our carb addiction.
The number one reason people fail at Keto is because generally speaking Keto is too extreme...
Since I can eat what I want on Keto why do you call it extreme?
Your n=1 does not tease out to most of the general population...
besides which, just because he's eating what he wants, doesn't mean he isn't depriving himself - he just happens to want the things that fits within the diet's limitations. The fact is, that he can't just eat anything that might grab his fancy if he wants to remain in ketosis, which means by definition he is still depriving himself by eliminating certain foods from his diet. Keto works fine for him because the things that he wants and craves naturally falls within the parameters of the diet, thus he doesn't feel "deprived". that's great for him, but that certainly doesn't apply across the board to everyone, and I find it rather capricious to conclude that just because one person may desire higher carb foods that they are then automatically considered "addicted" to them; if that is the case, then wouldn't one also be able to conclude that if that person happens to crave low-carb foods, they are then "addicted" to those items as well?
Exactly this. Its funny how the only carbs that seem to be addictive are the most palatable ones, and not the carbs you find in vegetables. I've never seen anyone mass consuming cauliflower just to get a fix. Lack of self control does not equal addiction.14 -
I prefer eating healthy foods including fruits and vegetables 😊😊😊.. I like to eat healthy carbs.
I guess keto isn't for me5 -
@janejellyroll Actually, if you read many people who post against keto or offer their advice on keto, even in this thread alone, say it's just one of many options to get a calorie deficit. I'm saying it's more than just calorie deficit or weight loss related. My Mom is not overweight. Skinny and active. She does not overeat. Eats way more fruits and vegies than the average person. Yet she has diabetes and high cholesterol. My autoimmune disease has a terrible inflammatory component. Two weeks back on keto, without having lost enough weight for that to have an impact, and my inflammation is way down. The effect of very low carb on your liver health, etc are more than just secondary to weight loss.
I don't know of anyone who denies that diet can play a role in certain health conditions. This is a different discussion than how weight loss takes place.5 -
foolforcarbos wrote: »lemurcat2, I never said whole foods do not have carbs. But the discussion was not just Keto understanding, but in my post, obesity. Yes, there are whole carbohydrates found in natural foods, and refined carbohydrates. Yes, apples and roasted potatoes are whole foods, and thus have whole carbohydrates. But most people are buying things with a label, and were taught to purchase low fat items. Almost everything that has a label, not all, but most, have refined carbohydrates. The natural fiber has been taken out and replaced with a host of things that most people can't pronounce. Hence the label. Apples and potatoes don't really come with a label, do they?
There were, last I checked, just over 60 ways for a company to list sugar as an ingredient. There is probably over 20 ways to list MSG. Saying carbs=processed food is silly may make you feel better, but that's simply not the truth. Unless you shop along the walls of a typical grocery store, almost all the food down the aisles has been processed. And so, too, have all the carbs. Most comes in packages, with long shelf lifes, and expiration dates. Most has been stripped of nutrients and fiber and has a host of additives.
Saying Keto=no processed food is silly, as well, may make you feel better but that's one of the keys to Keto, reading labels. Avoiding processed foods. Avoiding certain ingredients. Some go as far as not consuming an item because there may have been an animal feed corn to produce the raw product that was used to prepare the item one is looking to purchase, and thus they conclude that that corn had GMOs and thus, one should avoid that food. Or that the item has corn syrups and thus, there were GMOs in the corn. Which is just sugar. There are some who are very strict about their Keto.
Saying carbs are not addictive, takes out the whole discussion of excitotoxins. But that's probably too much for one response for you. Cheers. Enjoy what you eat.
Where are you shopping? At my store, there are plenty of foods that don't have a label and plenty of foods that have labels but are full of nutrients.
As far as people on keto avoiding corn-fed beef, I don't think that's a really widespread practice. Do some people do it? Sure, but you can find examples of people doing just about anything.
And keto people are also free to eat processed foods, if they choose. Any look at keto recipes on Pinterest will show you that processed foods are actually pretty popular with some keto eaters, so it isn't the packaging that's the problem.8 -
It’s basically the same as South Beach diet, which was in turn basically the same as the Atkins diet, which was likely a rehash of some other low/no carb diet before it.
It works for quick weight loss as long as you follow it, but in my opinion isn’t sustainable. I lost 30 lbs many years ago using the Atkins diet, but still vividly remember eating eggs so often I hated them. Eating hot dogs for breakfast. Scraping the cheese off a slice of pizza and eating it. As soon as I relaxed the diet a bit, the weight came back, slowly but surely.1 -
It seems to me that a major player in the "low carb is better" drum beat is people who assume that their weaknesses and their preferences are universal. Some people have a tough time moderating carbs. Some people find it too difficult to glance at the labels of products and choose ones that have some value to their diet. But that is NOT universal.
I have a limited budget and I hate spending more time grocery shopping than I have to. I buy almost entirely food that has labels on it, and eat @ 50% carbs. I have no trouble eating at a deficit when I need to, I hit my 24g fiber goal most days, and I get at least close to my protein and fat goals. I do better hitting my goal for # of servings of vegetables when I buy bags of frozen rather than fresh, whole veggies.
I find starchy carbs filling, far more filling than cheese, nuts or meat. I can eat hundreds of calories of almonds or cashews without it even registering. But a meal with a helping or so of rice or roasted potato or pasta, with a protein and a bit of fat, and I'm full with 400 cals or so for hours. Low carb makes me hungrier. And I am not a unicorn, there are lots of people like me.
My point isn't that everyone is like me, or should be like me, or should eat what I eat. It's simply that insisting that one way of eating is best, or that one type of food is filling or not filling, or that one thing is responsible for weight issues is self-centered. You don't need to prove that everyone has the same shortcoming you do in order to feel like it isn't your fault. We all have different weaknesses and buttons to push. The people who succeed stop worrying about joining the right movement or figuring out the big universal secret, and just figure out how to best work around their weak points and utilize their strengths. For me, getting over the puritanical ideal of "clean whole food" and mindfully choosing convenience foods that still supported my health and diet was a game changer. For someone else, the answer will be entirely different.
Regardless, low-carb and keto really are two different things IMHO. For those who aren't satiated by carbs and find fat filling, I think a generally low carb diet, with an eye to still getting enough fiber, is a great idea and can be a life long healthy way of eating. I'm not convinced keto can be as well. Certainly it can be a way to lose weight in the short term, but I'm not convinced from the data that eating keto for life is a healthy decision. If you have a medical condition ketosis benefits, it may be the lesser of two evils and a smart choice, but I think keto's long term effect on overall health is still TBD. The people I know who have successfully used keto used it short term and then transitioned to a more moderate low carb philosophy, or strategically switched back and forth. Just my personal experience and opinion.15 -
CaptAwesome77 wrote: »It’s basically the same as South Beach diet, which was in turn basically the same as the Atkins diet, which was likely a rehash of some other low/no carb diet before it.
It works for quick weight loss as long as you follow it, but in my opinion isn’t sustainable. I lost 30 lbs many years ago using the Atkins diet, but still vividly remember eating eggs so often I hated them. Eating hot dogs for breakfast. Scraping the cheese off a slice of pizza and eating it. As soon as I relaxed the diet a bit, the weight came back, slowly but surely.
I know South Beach has changed a lot over the years, but the initial SB diet was actually pretty different from Atkins and keto. It encouraged lower fat eating and included foods like fruit, grains, and beans (especially once you were past the initial Phase 1, which lasted about two weeks). I did South Beach for about a year and it ultimately wasn't for me, but it was the fact that it included foods like fruit and beans that made me choose it over Atkins.2 -
I think it's great for some people with certain medical issues, for short term weight loss, or maybe kicking a sugar habit/addiction. However, I don't see many people able to sustain the lifestyle and they gain a lot of weight back once they stop eating keto. They seem to end up less healthy than when they started keto. So I say that keto is good for short term periods but shouldn't be something you do for an extended period.2
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From my own experience with keto
I learned that keto isnt good for me. Without good carbs I have an anxiety, low mood, low energy and low testosterone. I go to gym and have no power, no will, no motivation. Just a big headache.
Understand that keto is very harmful diet for the body. Every one needs some carbs. NOT sugar, but COMPLEX CARBS.
You can limit your carbs only for a short period. For example, 1-4 weeks MAX.
If you go keto for more than 1 month, you will feel gross. And your body will be destroyed soon.0 -
From my own experience with keto
I learned that keto isnt good for me. Without good carbs I have an anxiety, low mood, low energy and low testosterone. I go to gym and have no power, no will, no motivation. Just a big headache.
Understand that keto is very harmful diet for the body. Every one needs some carbs. NOT sugar, but COMPLEX CARBS.
You can limit your carbs only for a short period. For example, 1-4 weeks MAX.
If you go keto for more than 1 month, you will feel gross. And your body will be destroyed soon.
There are people who have been on keto for way longer than a month and they don't feel gross. And their bodies aren't destroyed. There doesn't seem to be much foundation for a comment like that.8 -
From my own experience with keto
I learned that keto isnt good for me. Without good carbs I have an anxiety, low mood, low energy and low testosterone. I go to gym and have no power, no will, no motivation. Just a big headache.
Understand that keto is very harmful diet for the body. Every one needs some carbs. NOT sugar, but COMPLEX CARBS.
You can limit your carbs only for a short period. For example, 1-4 weeks MAX.
If you go keto for more than 1 month, you will feel gross. And your body will be destroyed soon.
nonsense...5 -
It seems to me that a major player in the "low carb is better" drum beat is people who assume that their weaknesses and their preferences are universal. Some people have a tough time moderating carbs. Some people find it too difficult to glance at the labels of products and choose ones that have some value to their diet. But that is NOT universal.
I have a limited budget and I hate spending more time grocery shopping than I have to. I buy almost entirely food that has labels on it, and eat @ 50% carbs. I have no trouble eating at a deficit when I need to, I hit my 24g fiber goal most days, and I get at least close to my protein and fat goals. I do better hitting my goal for # of servings of vegetables when I buy bags of frozen rather than fresh, whole veggies.
I find starchy carbs filling, far more filling than cheese, nuts or meat. I can eat hundreds of calories of almonds or cashews without it even registering. But a meal with a helping or so of rice or roasted potato or pasta, with a protein and a bit of fat, and I'm full with 400 cals or so for hours. Low carb makes me hungrier. And I am not a unicorn, there are lots of people like me.
My point isn't that everyone is like me, or should be like me, or should eat what I eat. It's simply that insisting that one way of eating is best, or that one type of food is filling or not filling, or that one thing is responsible for weight issues is self-centered. You don't need to prove that everyone has the same shortcoming you do in order to feel like it isn't your fault. We all have different weaknesses and buttons to push. The people who succeed stop worrying about joining the right movement or figuring out the big universal secret, and just figure out how to best work around their weak points and utilize their strengths. For me, getting over the puritanical ideal of "clean whole food" and mindfully choosing convenience foods that still supported my health and diet was a game changer. For someone else, the answer will be entirely different.
Regardless, low-carb and keto really are two different things IMHO. For those who aren't satiated by carbs and find fat filling, I think a generally low carb diet, with an eye to still getting enough fiber, is a great idea and can be a life long healthy way of eating. I'm not convinced keto can be as well. Certainly it can be a way to lose weight in the short term, but I'm not convinced from the data that eating keto for life is a healthy decision. If you have a medical condition ketosis benefits, it may be the lesser of two evils and a smart choice, but I think keto's long term effect on overall health is still TBD. The people I know who have successfully used keto used it short term and then transitioned to a more moderate low carb philosophy, or strategically switched back and forth. Just my personal experience and opinion.
I couldn't possibly love this post more!! Perfectly said.5 -
There is Keto - where the only way to know if you are in ketosis, and producing ketones, is a blood sugar measurement, daily. There is Dirty Keto - or low carb. I am starting day 18. I went from 177 lbs to 160 today. I went from a belly measurement of 44 inches to 38 inches, today. I am following, best I can, Keto.
But I am also stating I am still eating carbs, like Dave's Killer Bread Good Seed from time to time, at a slice or two for a sandwich, to the occasional glass of whole milk. Most my food is whole food. Sure, I am not making my own pasta sauce. It's a can. Or not making my own bone broth, heavy whipping cream, sour cream, or those zero carb pork skins. My carb count, if it matters, is between 25-96 with a few days well over 100, like 130. But two weeks ago, it was 500g a day.
Am I in Ketosis? I doubt it and really may never get into ketosis. But I am not getting hung up on the details, which apparently some here like to do. So, is my food intake, thus far, really low carb? Is it just counting calories? Is it whole foods? Are there processed foods? Again, if there are results, does it matter. How are we defining Keto in the discussion? That you must be in ketosis (with only the occassional bump)? Or that someone is saying they are trying the keto diet?
I see a lot of people making assumptions here, (including dried beans being consumed by keto follower ?), to pointing out all the recipes on Pinterest, which we have no idea, as in a clinical study, if those folks are following a regimented keto diet and are staying in ketosis, or dirty keto, or low carb, or wishful thinking. What I find on Pinterest is people's wish lists. Wishing they could start and do that which they pin. Most just simply pin. And never actually make, create, purchase, or whatever their pinboard shows off.
But seeing as this thread is about keto thoughts, many many will start to follow some type of keto plan and start eating, what they feel, is a keto diet. There are so many youtube video on it, and they follow the Keto Kamp, Keto Konnect, FlavCity with Bobby, Dr. Nick, and on an on. Apparently, there will be so many who are going to detract and tear it apart, just as any other diet. Some people just have to push that their way works for them. Hey, that's great. But dear detractors, you are pushing your way. That seems to work for you. Keto people feel their way works.
Are they tearing apart your diet? Have I ever said you can't eat carbs? Or eat processed foods? No. I am stating what I know of Keto after hundreds of hours of videos, research, and books. Amazing how people here treat others who actually know a thing or two. Yes, let's call them silly for stating facts. Great. Look. There will be folks who will swear by it, and those who absolutely detest it. But did they really follow it? Who knows. Doesn't matter. They hate it, fine. But boy do people here just talk to talk, without facts.
Keto has been around since 1915, so it's not exactly a fad, just very popular right now. Can you say it's an Adkins diet, only if you are really generalizing. They're not the same. For all the people who think well, people are eating fat bombs (Adkins) that are processed foods so obviously there is a lot of processed foods in a keto diet, you may not understand keto. My experience, and all the places I have followed, have people finding some whole way to replace some processed food. They find ways to make their own bombs, not buy them. But can they? No. There will always be some process something as an ingredient somewhere.
Where people fail in diets at the start, is not counting for everything they truly are eating. Not working on it as hard as it may take. Not exercising. And in the end, not being honest with themselves and the program they decided to try. If you really boil it down, then yes, calories in calories out. But the body doesn't process each calorie the same. That's why I am not into the statement CICO.
We all take a plate, or a bowl, or grab a snack and all have to decide what to do with it. We can divide that plate in half and put veggies, and then divide the remaining in half and put protein for 1/4 of the plate, and either carbs or fat for the other portion left, but we all deal with carbs, protein, and fats.
A keto lifestyle is simply a way to avoid processed foods, corns, starches, and refined carbs. Breads. Pastas. Sugars. There is strict keto, dirty keto, and many, like me, who are just learning and trying and probably are really just low carb and not even keto. Who knows. They may pin things on their boards on Pinterest. They may just simply bookmark recipes. Don't know.
But amazingly, how many here instantly tear down the walls of the keto follower just because they are looking for that thread to pull. But even more amazing was the people here who think people aren't addicted to food and there is no such thing like carb addiction. Maybe just a lack of studies to conclusively prove it, but I guess there are always those who demand proof beyond their doubts.
I really wonder why so many here can't just be happy if something is working. Janejellyroll, if people are going out of their way to consume processed foods as freely as you make it seem, then are they really on a keto diet, following their blood sugars, and in ketosis? I doubt it. How can they? Are they really just low carb? CICO? I'm starting to wonder how many here really understand keto and ketones and burning a different fat and how the whole process works in the body. Or are they stating opinions just by a casual observation and really don't know about Keto. I guess, in the long run, it doesn't matter.
Thanks for those who read this. I decided not to post any new threads and just respond to current threads, as it is nice to talk about things that work and where you are at and hearing where others are at, but in truth find this forum is no different than facebook or any other social media. People simply push back on everything. Nothing is common sense. These aren't really discussions. And it is more of the same, people being negative to make their outcome seem so positive. Or in other words, basically putting people down to make themselves look better.
One thing I can say, at 56 years old, is you can tear apart anything or any person and nitpick to the point that you hate em. Or you can accept their flaws, make a place for them in your life, or their choices, and not constantly correct them by your opinions and your flawed facts. No one here really has the answer except what may or may not work for them, personally. We aren't consulting for people, watching their weight on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, and thus we aren't ensuring they are or are not failing because of some unknown reason. Maybe they just can't stick to a diet. And maybe it is for that person, willpower.
kimny72 who states a lot of good things, but I feel nailed it with this: We all have different weaknesses and buttons to push. The people who succeed stop worrying about joining the right movement or figuring out the big universal secret, and just figure out how to best work around their weak points and utilize their strengths.4 -
foolforcarbos wrote: »There is Keto - where the only way to know if you are in ketosis, and producing ketones, is a blood sugar measurement, daily. There is Dirty Keto - or low carb. I am starting day 18. I went from 177 lbs to 160 today. I went from a belly measurement of 44 inches to 38 inches, today. I am following, best I can, Keto.
But I am also stating I am still eating carbs, like Dave's Killer Bread Good Seed from time to time, at a slice or two for a sandwich, to the occasional glass of whole milk. Most my food is whole food. Sure, I am not making my own pasta sauce. It's a can. Or not making my own bone broth, heavy whipping cream, sour cream, or those zero carb pork skins. My carb count, if it matters, is between 25-96 with a few days well over 100, like 130. But two weeks ago, it was 500g a day.
Am I in Ketosis? I doubt it and really may never get into ketosis. But I am not getting hung up on the details, which apparently some here like to do. So, is my food intake, thus far, really low carb? Is it just counting calories? Is it whole foods? Are there processed foods? Again, if there are results, does it matter. How are we defining Keto in the discussion? That you must be in ketosis (with only the occassional bump)? Or that someone is saying they are trying the keto diet?
I see a lot of people making assumptions here, (including dried beans being consumed by keto follower ?), to pointing out all the recipes on Pinterest, which we have no idea, as in a clinical study, if those folks are following a regimented keto diet and are staying in ketosis, or dirty keto, or low carb, or wishful thinking. What I find on Pinterest is people's wish lists. Wishing they could start and do that which they pin. Most just simply pin. And never actually make, create, purchase, or whatever their pinboard shows off.
But seeing as this thread is about keto thoughts, many many will start to follow some type of keto plan and start eating, what they feel, is a keto diet. There are so many youtube video on it, and they follow the Keto Kamp, Keto Konnect, FlavCity with Bobby, Dr. Nick, and on an on. Apparently, there will be so many who are going to detract and tear it apart, just as any other diet. Some people just have to push that their way works for them. Hey, that's great. But dear detractors, you are pushing your way. That seems to work for you. Keto people feel their way works.
Are they tearing apart your diet? Have I ever said you can't eat carbs? Or eat processed foods? No. I am stating what I know of Keto after hundreds of hours of videos, research, and books. Amazing how people here treat others who actually know a thing or two. Yes, let's call them silly for stating facts. Great. Look. There will be folks who will swear by it, and those who absolutely detest it. But did they really follow it? Who knows. Doesn't matter. They hate it, fine. But boy do people here just talk to talk, without facts.
Keto has been around since 1915, so it's not exactly a fad, just very popular right now. Can you say it's an Adkins diet, only if you are really generalizing. They're not the same. For all the people who think well, people are eating fat bombs (Adkins) that are processed foods so obviously there is a lot of processed foods in a keto diet, you may not understand keto. My experience, and all the places I have followed, have people finding some whole way to replace some processed food. They find ways to make their own bombs, not buy them. But can they? No. There will always be some process something as an ingredient somewhere.
Where people fail in diets at the start, is not counting for everything they truly are eating. Not working on it as hard as it may take. Not exercising. And in the end, not being honest with themselves and the program they decided to try. If you really boil it down, then yes, calories in calories out. But the body doesn't process each calorie the same. That's why I am not into the statement CICO.
We all take a plate, or a bowl, or grab a snack and all have to decide what to do with it. We can divide that plate in half and put veggies, and then divide the remaining in half and put protein for 1/4 of the plate, and either carbs or fat for the other portion left, but we all deal with carbs, protein, and fats.
A keto lifestyle is simply a way to avoid processed foods, corns, starches, and refined carbs. Breads. Pastas. Sugars. There is strict keto, dirty keto, and many, like me, who are just learning and trying and probably are really just low carb and not even keto. Who knows. They may pin things on their boards on Pinterest. They may just simply bookmark recipes. Don't know.
But amazingly, how many here instantly tear down the walls of the keto follower just because they are looking for that thread to pull. But even more amazing was the people here who think people aren't addicted to food and there is no such thing like carb addiction. Maybe just a lack of studies to conclusively prove it, but I guess there are always those who demand proof beyond their doubts.
I really wonder why so many here can't just be happy if something is working. Janejellyroll, if people are going out of their way to consume processed foods as freely as you make it seem, then are they really on a keto diet, following their blood sugars, and in ketosis? I doubt it. How can they? Are they really just low carb? CICO? I'm starting to wonder how many here really understand keto and ketones and burning a different fat and how the whole process works in the body. Or are they stating opinions just by a casual observation and really don't know about Keto. I guess, in the long run, it doesn't matter.
Thanks for those who read this. I decided not to post any new threads and just respond to current threads, as it is nice to talk about things that work and where you are at and hearing where others are at, but in truth find this forum is no different than facebook or any other social media. People simply push back on everything. Nothing is common sense. These aren't really discussions. And it is more of the same, people being negative to make their outcome seem so positive. Or in other words, basically putting people down to make themselves look better.
One thing I can say, at 56 years old, is you can tear apart anything or any person and nitpick to the point that you hate em. Or you can accept their flaws, make a place for them in your life, or their choices, and not constantly correct them by your opinions and your flawed facts. No one here really has the answer except what may or may not work for them, personally. We aren't consulting for people, watching their weight on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, and thus we aren't ensuring they are or are not failing because of some unknown reason. Maybe they just can't stick to a diet. And maybe it is for that person, willpower.
kimny72 who states a lot of good things, but I feel nailed it with this: We all have different weaknesses and buttons to push. The people who succeed stop worrying about joining the right movement or figuring out the big universal secret, and just figure out how to best work around their weak points and utilize their strengths.
Yes, people who are eating processed foods can also be doing keto. By your own statements, YOU eat processed foods. Pork rinds, sour cream, bone broth, jarred pasta sauce, these things didn't spring from the ground to your plate. They all involve processing. There's nothing wrong with that.
I think maybe it's your understanding of keto that is a bit off. It's not about eliminating processed foods from the diet, although people doing keto can also choose to limit or eliminate processed foods. But it isn't required for "real keto," you're just gatekeeping (for a gate you can't even enter yourself!).11 -
Tried it, hated it. I felt terrible. I thought after a few days it would get better and it‘s just the Keto-flu the first few days but after 2 week I felt really bad. Headaches, constipation, no energy etc.
Back to my low carb diet (100 - 150 g carbs a day) Doing great now.4 -
foolforcarbos wrote: »There is Keto - where the only way to know if you are in ketosis, and producing ketones, is a blood sugar measurement, daily. There is Dirty Keto - or low carb. I am starting day 18. I went from 177 lbs to 160 today. I went from a belly measurement of 44 inches to 38 inches, today. I am following, best I can, Keto.
But I am also stating I am still eating carbs, like Dave's Killer Bread Good Seed from time to time, at a slice or two for a sandwich, to the occasional glass of whole milk. Most my food is whole food. Sure, I am not making my own pasta sauce. It's a can. Or not making my own bone broth, heavy whipping cream, sour cream, or those zero carb pork skins. My carb count, if it matters, is between 25-96 with a few days well over 100, like 130. But two weeks ago, it was 500g a day.
Am I in Ketosis? I doubt it and really may never get into ketosis. But I am not getting hung up on the details, which apparently some here like to do. So, is my food intake, thus far, really low carb? Is it just counting calories? Is it whole foods? Are there processed foods? Again, if there are results, does it matter. How are we defining Keto in the discussion? That you must be in ketosis (with only the occassional bump)? Or that someone is saying they are trying the keto diet?
I see a lot of people making assumptions here, (including dried beans being consumed by keto follower ?), to pointing out all the recipes on Pinterest, which we have no idea, as in a clinical study, if those folks are following a regimented keto diet and are staying in ketosis, or dirty keto, or low carb, or wishful thinking. What I find on Pinterest is people's wish lists. Wishing they could start and do that which they pin. Most just simply pin. And never actually make, create, purchase, or whatever their pinboard shows off.
But seeing as this thread is about keto thoughts, many many will start to follow some type of keto plan and start eating, what they feel, is a keto diet. There are so many youtube video on it, and they follow the Keto Kamp, Keto Konnect, FlavCity with Bobby, Dr. Nick, and on an on. Apparently, there will be so many who are going to detract and tear it apart, just as any other diet. Some people just have to push that their way works for them. Hey, that's great. But dear detractors, you are pushing your way. That seems to work for you. Keto people feel their way works.
Are they tearing apart your diet? Have I ever said you can't eat carbs? Or eat processed foods? No. I am stating what I know of Keto after hundreds of hours of videos, research, and books. Amazing how people here treat others who actually know a thing or two. Yes, let's call them silly for stating facts. Great. Look. There will be folks who will swear by it, and those who absolutely detest it. But did they really follow it? Who knows. Doesn't matter. They hate it, fine. But boy do people here just talk to talk, without facts.
Keto has been around since 1915, so it's not exactly a fad, just very popular right now. Can you say it's an Adkins diet, only if you are really generalizing. They're not the same. For all the people who think well, people are eating fat bombs (Adkins) that are processed foods so obviously there is a lot of processed foods in a keto diet, you may not understand keto. My experience, and all the places I have followed, have people finding some whole way to replace some processed food. They find ways to make their own bombs, not buy them. But can they? No. There will always be some process something as an ingredient somewhere.
Where people fail in diets at the start, is not counting for everything they truly are eating. Not working on it as hard as it may take. Not exercising. And in the end, not being honest with themselves and the program they decided to try. If you really boil it down, then yes, calories in calories out. But the body doesn't process each calorie the same. That's why I am not into the statement CICO.
We all take a plate, or a bowl, or grab a snack and all have to decide what to do with it. We can divide that plate in half and put veggies, and then divide the remaining in half and put protein for 1/4 of the plate, and either carbs or fat for the other portion left, but we all deal with carbs, protein, and fats.
A keto lifestyle is simply a way to avoid processed foods, corns, starches, and refined carbs. Breads. Pastas. Sugars. There is strict keto, dirty keto, and many, like me, who are just learning and trying and probably are really just low carb and not even keto. Who knows. They may pin things on their boards on Pinterest. They may just simply bookmark recipes. Don't know.
But amazingly, how many here instantly tear down the walls of the keto follower just because they are looking for that thread to pull. But even more amazing was the people here who think people aren't addicted to food and there is no such thing like carb addiction. Maybe just a lack of studies to conclusively prove it, but I guess there are always those who demand proof beyond their doubts.
I really wonder why so many here can't just be happy if something is working. Janejellyroll, if people are going out of their way to consume processed foods as freely as you make it seem, then are they really on a keto diet, following their blood sugars, and in ketosis? I doubt it. How can they? Are they really just low carb? CICO? I'm starting to wonder how many here really understand keto and ketones and burning a different fat and how the whole process works in the body. Or are they stating opinions just by a casual observation and really don't know about Keto. I guess, in the long run, it doesn't matter.
Thanks for those who read this. I decided not to post any new threads and just respond to current threads, as it is nice to talk about things that work and where you are at and hearing where others are at, but in truth find this forum is no different than facebook or any other social media. People simply push back on everything. Nothing is common sense. These aren't really discussions. And it is more of the same, people being negative to make their outcome seem so positive. Or in other words, basically putting people down to make themselves look better.
One thing I can say, at 56 years old, is you can tear apart anything or any person and nitpick to the point that you hate em. Or you can accept their flaws, make a place for them in your life, or their choices, and not constantly correct them by your opinions and your flawed facts. No one here really has the answer except what may or may not work for them, personally. We aren't consulting for people, watching their weight on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, and thus we aren't ensuring they are or are not failing because of some unknown reason. Maybe they just can't stick to a diet. And maybe it is for that person, willpower.
kimny72 who states a lot of good things, but I feel nailed it with this: We all have different weaknesses and buttons to push. The people who succeed stop worrying about joining the right movement or figuring out the big universal secret, and just figure out how to best work around their weak points and utilize their strengths.
I'm sorry, but anyone I've seen say they were doing "dirty keto" in my four years here has not just meant they were doing low carb, it is definitely more than that. You keep defining terms in ways that are very specific to just you personally and then criticizing the rest of us for not agreeing with your unique definitions. I agree with a previous poster that I'm not sure you are understanding what most people mean when they say they are doing keto. Keto is about keeping carbs very low, usually no more than 50g though some go lower. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with any of the other details you are insisting on.
Regardless, this post is in the Debate forum. The OP was:Love hearing people’s opinions and experience with different life style changes! Let me know what you think of keto and if it was beneficial for your life!
She asked for our thoughts and posted in Debate, you are criticizing us for doing exactly what the OP asked for. If you are uncomfortable with seeing people disagree with a particular philosophy or strategy, you might want to avoid reading Debate posts about it, because "tearing down" or "building up" the OP is literally the point.14 -
Keto is about changing your body to get energy from fat and create ketones. I have a great understanding about keto. Some of the criticisms you say are exactly what they OP asked for, aren't based on facts, but simply their bodies, or mindset, their opinions, or their speculations about keto.
Yes, I stated I do eat some processed foods, as I don't make my own mayo, or pork skins, or pasta sauce, but I also didn't think I had to state that a keto person is reading the label and ingredients to ensure they are not getting refined carbs and foods that have been stripped of nutrients and fibers and filled with additive and sugars. I know I am reading labels, like all keto followers, and so what, I stated I am eating some processed foods. But to turn that around and then say: By your own statements, YOU eat processed foods. Pork rinds, sour cream, bone broth, jarred pasta sauce, these things didn't spring from the ground to your plate. They all involve processing. There's nothing wrong with that. Wow. I, like all people getting on Keto are reading labels and cutting out all the foods that are overly processed and stripped down and rebuilt. So yes, I may say, or concede that there is processed foods, at times, in low moderation, in Keto, it's not that I am changing my definitions. I guess for you few that you have to spell out everything. Overly processed food that contain ingredients most people can't pronounce and avoiding all the variations of sugars, MSG, and excitotoxins, are generally kept out of the Keto plan.
If y'all are so smart about keto one would think I could just talk freely and not be corrected every time by your incessant demand that you know more and I know oh, so little and am confused. Great. Okay. You win.
I can have great conversations with others who are also working keto lifestyles. Come here and it's like constantly have to fight. You keep saying I am very specific for what works for me. That's not true. I am stating what I am doing, and trying to prove that I may not even be following the perfect Keto and that I am or may not be in ketosis, as I am not going to prick my finger and measure my blood every day. I am not a diabetic and don't need to. But I am also stating facts and now it's two of you saying I don't know my facts. Really. Okay, I just stick to the people who actually understand the conversation and bow out of this one. I do not care. I don't need the aggravation.
Y'all have between 14,000+ or 27,000+ posts that I am sure perfectly state your opinions. Keep it up. Great work. I'm done with this. Sorry that I wasn't explicit enough for you to follow along and that I have to be so exact in everything. Goodbye.1 -
foolforcarbos wrote: »Keto is about changing your body to get energy from fat and create ketones. I have a great understanding about keto. Some of the criticisms you say are exactly what they OP asked for, aren't based on facts, but simply their bodies, or mindset, their opinions, or their speculations about keto.
Yes, I stated I do eat some processed foods, as I don't make my own mayo, or pork skins, or pasta sauce, but I also didn't think I had to state that a keto person is reading the label and ingredients to ensure they are not getting refined carbs and foods that have been stripped of nutrients and fibers and filled with additive and sugars. I know I am reading labels, like all keto followers, and so what, I stated I am eating some processed foods. But to turn that around and then say: By your own statements, YOU eat processed foods. Pork rinds, sour cream, bone broth, jarred pasta sauce, these things didn't spring from the ground to your plate. They all involve processing. There's nothing wrong with that. Wow. I, like all people getting on Keto are reading labels and cutting out all the foods that are overly processed and stripped down and rebuilt. So yes, I may say, or concede that there is processed foods, at times, in low moderation, in Keto, it's not that I am changing my definitions. I guess for you few that you have to spell out everything. Overly processed food that contain ingredients most people can't pronounce and avoiding all the variations of sugars, MSG, and excitotoxins, are generally kept out of the Keto plan.
If y'all are so smart about keto one would think I could just talk freely and not be corrected every time by your incessant demand that you know more and I know oh, so little and am confused. Great. Okay. You win.
I can have great conversations with others who are also working keto lifestyles. Come here and it's like constantly have to fight. You keep saying I am very specific for what works for me. That's not true. I am stating what I am doing, and trying to prove that I may not even be following the perfect Keto and that I am or may not be in ketosis, as I am not going to prick my finger and measure my blood every day. I am not a diabetic and don't need to. But I am also stating facts and now it's two of you saying I don't know my facts. Really. Okay, I just stick to the people who actually understand the conversation and bow out of this one. I do not care. I don't need the aggravation.
Y'all have between 14,000+ or 27,000+ posts that I am sure perfectly state your opinions. Keep it up. Great work. I'm done with this. Sorry that I wasn't explicit enough for you to follow along and that I have to be so exact in everything. Goodbye.
If you state that keto is about avoiding processed foods and then list all the processed foods you eat on keto, you're going to cause some confusion. Clear communication and having relatively fixed meanings for words are generally part of productive communication. Part of this is "spelling things out" if you're adding things to keto that aren't part of the original plan (like avoiding "excitotoxins").8 -
foolforcarbos wrote: »Keto is about changing your body to get energy from fat and create ketones. I have a great understanding about keto. Some of the criticisms you say are exactly what they OP asked for, aren't based on facts, but simply their bodies, or mindset, their opinions, or their speculations about keto.
Yes, I stated I do eat some processed foods, as I don't make my own mayo, or pork skins, or pasta sauce, but I also didn't think I had to state that a keto person is reading the label and ingredients to ensure they are not getting refined carbs and foods that have been stripped of nutrients and fibers and filled with additive and sugars. I know I am reading labels, like all keto followers, and so what, I stated I am eating some processed foods. But to turn that around and then say: By your own statements, YOU eat processed foods. Pork rinds, sour cream, bone broth, jarred pasta sauce, these things didn't spring from the ground to your plate. They all involve processing. There's nothing wrong with that. Wow. I, like all people getting on Keto are reading labels and cutting out all the foods that are overly processed and stripped down and rebuilt. So yes, I may say, or concede that there is processed foods, at times, in low moderation, in Keto, it's not that I am changing my definitions. I guess for you few that you have to spell out everything. Overly processed food that contain ingredients most people can't pronounce and avoiding all the variations of sugars, MSG, and excitotoxins, are generally kept out of the Keto plan.
If y'all are so smart about keto one would think I could just talk freely and not be corrected every time by your incessant demand that you know more and I know oh, so little and am confused. Great. Okay. You win.
I can have great conversations with others who are also working keto lifestyles. Come here and it's like constantly have to fight. You keep saying I am very specific for what works for me. That's not true. I am stating what I am doing, and trying to prove that I may not even be following the perfect Keto and that I am or may not be in ketosis, as I am not going to prick my finger and measure my blood every day. I am not a diabetic and don't need to. But I am also stating facts and now it's two of you saying I don't know my facts. Really. Okay, I just stick to the people who actually understand the conversation and bow out of this one. I do not care. I don't need the aggravation.
Y'all have between 14,000+ or 27,000+ posts that I am sure perfectly state your opinions. Keep it up. Great work. I'm done with this. Sorry that I wasn't explicit enough for you to follow along and that I have to be so exact in everything. Goodbye.
@foolforcarbos take a look at your user name. It is clear you now a lot about Keto and have great experience with Keto personal but being confrontational to people out to get your goat is not helpful to the the masses that can be helped with some version of Keto or just the knowledge about a different Ways Of Eating. Try to hang in there. Most people being helped by MFP never post but are looking for help to prevent premature health declines.
That is the reason I use my real name with real info in my profile so people can read my posts along with my LinkedIn profile so they can understand my history since high school in just one Google search. I am a 69 year old male and would tell my young daughter never to be that revealing so I understand hidden profiles and fake names.
At the same time it is not best to fight with people that just live to fight. Just look at the people with type 2 diabetics now facing the risk of COVID-19. Had they known about how many people around the world now have fasting blood glucose levels below 100 after doing Keto for a relative short time they might have lowered their risk of harm from COVID-19.
Ignore those that just want to run you off the road into the ditch. People will be making false statements to harm others as long as there are people on Earth or even Mars if Elon Musk gets it fixed up for us to live on some day.
Best of continued health.1 -
It's the "in" thing right now for whatever reason. It doesn't sound appealing to me whatsoever but whatever floats your boat I guess.3
-
GaleHawkins wrote: »foolforcarbos wrote: »Keto is about changing your body to get energy from fat and create ketones. I have a great understanding about keto. Some of the criticisms you say are exactly what they OP asked for, aren't based on facts, but simply their bodies, or mindset, their opinions, or their speculations about keto.
Yes, I stated I do eat some processed foods, as I don't make my own mayo, or pork skins, or pasta sauce, but I also didn't think I had to state that a keto person is reading the label and ingredients to ensure they are not getting refined carbs and foods that have been stripped of nutrients and fibers and filled with additive and sugars. I know I am reading labels, like all keto followers, and so what, I stated I am eating some processed foods. But to turn that around and then say: By your own statements, YOU eat processed foods. Pork rinds, sour cream, bone broth, jarred pasta sauce, these things didn't spring from the ground to your plate. They all involve processing. There's nothing wrong with that. Wow. I, like all people getting on Keto are reading labels and cutting out all the foods that are overly processed and stripped down and rebuilt. So yes, I may say, or concede that there is processed foods, at times, in low moderation, in Keto, it's not that I am changing my definitions. I guess for you few that you have to spell out everything. Overly processed food that contain ingredients most people can't pronounce and avoiding all the variations of sugars, MSG, and excitotoxins, are generally kept out of the Keto plan.
If y'all are so smart about keto one would think I could just talk freely and not be corrected every time by your incessant demand that you know more and I know oh, so little and am confused. Great. Okay. You win.
I can have great conversations with others who are also working keto lifestyles. Come here and it's like constantly have to fight. You keep saying I am very specific for what works for me. That's not true. I am stating what I am doing, and trying to prove that I may not even be following the perfect Keto and that I am or may not be in ketosis, as I am not going to prick my finger and measure my blood every day. I am not a diabetic and don't need to. But I am also stating facts and now it's two of you saying I don't know my facts. Really. Okay, I just stick to the people who actually understand the conversation and bow out of this one. I do not care. I don't need the aggravation.
Y'all have between 14,000+ or 27,000+ posts that I am sure perfectly state your opinions. Keep it up. Great work. I'm done with this. Sorry that I wasn't explicit enough for you to follow along and that I have to be so exact in everything. Goodbye.
@foolforcarbos take a look at your user name. It is clear you now a lot about Keto and have great experience with Keto personal but being confrontational to people out to get your goat is not helpful to the the masses that can be helped with some version of Keto or just the knowledge about a different Ways Of Eating. Try to hang in there. Most people being helped by MFP never post but are looking for help to prevent premature health declines.
That is the reason I use my real name with real info in my profile so people can read my posts along with my LinkedIn profile so they can understand my history since high school in just one Google search. I am a 69 year old male and would tell my young daughter never to be that revealing so I understand hidden profiles and fake names.
At the same time it is not best to fight with people that just live to fight. Just look at the people with type 2 diabetics now facing the risk of COVID-19. Had they known about how many people around the world now have fasting blood glucose levels below 100 after doing Keto for a relative short time they might have lowered their risk of harm from COVID-19.
Ignore those that just want to run you off the road into the ditch. People will be making false statements to harm others as long as there are people on Earth or even Mars if Elon Musk gets it fixed up for us to live on some day.
Best of continued health.
Nobody wants anybody in a ditch. This is the debate area and poorly supported statements are going to be debated.14
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