Coronavirus prep
Replies
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https://www.npjournal.org/article/S1555-4155(12)00621-6/pdf
Kawasaki syndrome and rheumatic heart disease, a consequence of group A streptococcal infection, are the first and second leading causes of acquired heart disease in children in the United States. Kawasaki syndrome and streptococcal scarlet fever manifest in clinically similar ways, and it is important for the nurse practitioner to recognize the distinguishing features of these 2 diagnoses. Prompt identification and management of both disease processes can mitigate the risk for developing associated cardiac sequelae.
Two children in New York have died from Kawasaki..
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-5-year-old-dies-new-york-severe-illness-linked-to-covid-19/3 -
Also true here in Michigan - very little controversy . . . this, even though sometimes I feel like the news from here is making us sound like the U.S. center for fractious idiots. 🙄
Well, bless your Michigan hearts for giving us Georgia folks a breather. That’s usually our purview.
@Diatonic12 I’ve had Rhuematic Fever several times and am singularly blessed not to have the usual resulting heart issues.
It’s so unusual in the US, particularly in adults, no earlier doctor ever considered it as a possibility. The last time I got it, I went to the doctor, who initially sniffed “you’ve been googling your symptoms, haven’t you.” Thanks, Dr Google, and thanks Doc, for hearing me out and being kind enough to test me and not chase me out of your office.
ARF caused my first major weight gain. Thirty pounds in a month. Barely able to crawl on hands and knees, I camped out in a barcolounger, with a dog in my lap, steroids for the mystifying joint swelling, and an unlimited supply of M&Ms to quell my misery.
Steroids, inactivity and M&Ms. What a toxic combo that was.13 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Lol...someone is on a disagree spree...
Yes I noticed 2 people disagreed with my accounting of the SA roadmap to recovery - although none of it was my opinion, just an objective statement of what the restrictions will become.
Are they disagreeing that my post is an accurate account- even though I copy/pasted the table from the SA health site showing them??? or do they disagree with what the SA govt is deciding???
If so, would like to know on what basis they are disagreeing.
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Thanks to those who answered my question about why churches closing is controversial in US.
I am not aware of any similar objections here - or any 'the govt is picking on my religion' protests.
The ban on gatherings applied equally to all religions and all non religious gatherings and I think there would be quite a public backlash if any religious groups wanted to start 'But we should be an exception to that'
yes I appreciate such groups are a minority (albeit an outspoken noisy minority?) in US too - and I am sure they could exist here too but they are an even smaller minority here.3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.2 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I just wanted to be clear, too, that when someone in the US (TN, I think) is surprised that churches opening and having in-person services isn't a big deal in AU, and says that it is one of the biggest deals here, it should be clear that's not true throughout the US. Because for most of us in many places the churches (or vast majority of them) aren't demanding that in-person services should be held and voluntarily chose to stop them for safety reasons -- probably similar to what happened in AU. When Trump was talking about opening churches for Easter, the Archdiocese here had already canceled Easter mass (and again same with all the mainline Protestant churches I know, although many of them aren't as centralized). So the idea that it's a huge issue with churches demanding to open is regional or local (or somewhat sectarian and politicized), IMO.
Across the world, church services and other religious gatherings have been the source of a number of super-spreading events, unfortunately, and I think responsible churches are well aware of and concerned about that.
I have to admit I have no idea why religious leaders want to take these risks, other than it is easier to pass a collection plate onsite.
I work at home and communicate with people from all across the country constantly and have productive meetings. A number of churches do this as well. A forward-thinking pastor streaming his sermon and posting a link to a pay app can keep the church solvent for a few months while protecting his congregation's health. If yours is not innovative and is careless with your health then maybe you should reevaluate your church?
I have been very supportive of our bishop suspending public Masses, I haven’t tried to find “underground” Masses in different dioceses/states, or anything like that, and have waited patiently for a resumption of public Masses, which will happen here next weekend (presenting my Bona fides as a person concerned for the health of others, and as my non-membership in the vocal minority of fringe “keep your government hands off my church service!” groups).
So, that being said, there are legitimate reasons besides $ that churches want to open. I can only speak for members of my own Church, obviously, but for Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. So being in church = physically being in the presence of Christ. That is not something you can get on live-stream. Receiving the Eucharist is physically receiving Him—again, not something you can live-stream. I’m not trying to hijack this thread to debate religion, and I get that others might not understand why this is so important, but I do want to point out that many many Catholics I know, myself included, are truly longing for that which we can’t get through a screen. Mass is not a meeting, it’s a sacrifice, and productivity has nothing to do with it. Comparing it to a Zoomed business meeting is...well, kinda demeaning, actually.
Honestly, we’ve been live-streaming Masses from some gorgeous churches around the country (including Chicago
) with better music, more beautiful art, and more inspiring homilies than our home parish. We can get that via live-stream, but none of those things are “the point” of Mass, none of that is “enough.” So that’s why we want to go back.
Our churches are roping off pews, opening different spaces (gyms, large fellowship halls) to hold several Masses at one time to give people space, smaller ones are asking parishioners to call ahead to reserve a pew, since fewer will be available, they are encouraging us to wear masks, and encouraging older/vulnerable people to stay home. So precautions are being taken and people are free to stay home, it’s not a matter of pastors being insensitive, careless , or money hungry.13 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Grocery store are limiting amount of meat one can buy on a trip, results in more trip to store?
At least that gives more people the option to get meat rather than having people hoard it like toilet paper.7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Are we looking to put more people out of work? The whole point of the lockdowns/self isolation was to slow the spread not to stop it entirely(which seems very far away lets be honest). Not arguing against innovation and automation so much as pointing out that doing that is likely not possible on short notice but also ends up putting people out of work...and then what will they do? Yes deaths are horrible, but the cure can't be worse than the disease and this is currently seeming worse than the disease as people are out of work, can't pay bills, losing jobs, the economy is tanking etc. There has to be a balance (and from what I can see the death rate is NOT worse than the flu so...it sucks when people die but sadly it happens for a variety of reasons - but we don't lockdown during flu season and at this point for me the cure is worse than the disease0 -
I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.1
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I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.
You can edit your post and make sure that there is a [/quote] before you start your own comments. I believe you might actually need TWO of them. Just type them in, preview and then Save Post when happy!4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
The position of the meat industry is that it is the personal lives of their workers that are creating the risk of infection, not workplace contact. Even assuming innovation can solve this problem, there has to be a desire to innovate. When your human workers are considered a cog that can be replaced once they're ill or injured, there isn't going to be innovation to protect them unless an outside force makes it happen. We're talking about an industry that already has one of the highest rates of workplace injury in the US -- that was before any of this happened.11 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
I don't work in manufacturing, but my job does involve procuring equipment (automated and not) for warehouses and I can confirm that the timelines are long. Sourcing, approval, delivery, installation, integration, testing, training . . . . these all take place on a timeline that seemed incredibly long to me when I first began this kind of work and it involves integrating the work of so many different teams. Even for stuff that it seems like you'd just be able to bring into a site and plug in, it's never never never that easy.9 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.8 -
RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
My church (which is large) has more careful opening guidelines than the state. I respect that. We have a huge church (1,500 ish every Sunday, which is far above the 50 allowed right now). Our plan is to do online through May - with the last two weeks to have outdoor services at multiple locations (to keep them small, with pre-registration) the last two weeks in May in addition to the online services. If all holds well with recoveries and testing, we will resume in-person services in June - but 5-6 services per Sunday with online registration and social distancing to keep services small. Only limited children's activities (not announced yet, except morning day camp in late July).
ETA and if I understand correctly, our churches giving has either held steady or increased. Our church has also taken measures to reduce costs, not heating or cooling most of the building (which is large), etc. My giving is online, and nothing has changed because I'm still working.3 -
I’m group 2.
When “locked down” I was group 1, couldn’t wait to get in the gym, a real, live restaurant, etc. This is the second day the gym is open, and I’m just gonna walk outside instead. It’s a beautiful day. Restaurants are open, but so are drive thrus, and I’m a fair cook. Just a little freedom goes a long way.8 -
We have a big trip to NZ planned for November. We just got our second cancellation via email. First was an Airbnb reservation, and the second was the Hobbiton banquet dinner. Copious tears and gnashing of teeth from this Tolkien fanatic (note the user name).
Little uneasy. This is “the” retirement trip that we had planned for years, and have already spent a ton of money on.13 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I'm definitely in group 2.4 -
I’ve had Rheumatic Fever several times and am singularly blessed not to have the usual resulting heart issues.
It’s so unusual in the US, particularly in adults, no earlier doctor ever considered it as a possibility.
@springlering62 You're so right, most people think Rheumatic Fever is a thing of the past. In my town, there's been no social distancing amongst the kids. They're gathering at all of the parks, homes and playgrounds. Parents believe they're immune to it so no worries. We actually have many anti-vaxxers and they rely on the 'herd immunity' to protect their kids.
https://undark.org/2020/04/16/anti-vaccine-covid-19/
A family member went to a home business of anti-vaxxers. Within a few days family member became very, very sick. Tight band around the chest, unable to breathe, horrid cough and all of the rest of it. We used the oxygen on the belly treatment here at home with 3 rounds of prednisone/antibiotics and many breathing treatments throughout the day and evening. We have skated by but there's still that residual ragged cough and difficulty breathing. Until we receive that anti-body test we won't know for sure. This has been going on for months since the middle of January. We've been to the doctor but they didn't believe it was the flu and really didn't know what it was. The only place family member has been was over at that house and family member has all of their vacs. The kids were all very sick at that house and it gives me a big pinch the place was open for biz, a salon/spa. Those kids are constantly sick with the flu or something, every cotton picking time you go over there. I refuse to go there.
When the dawn comes to light I think they'll be surprised how far off the numbers really are. No one here is able to just walk in and get a test because they don't exist. You have to go to your doctor and they'll order you one but you will pay $270 upfront. This has deterred many from going in and asking. There are no free tests or free treatments here.
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springlering62 wrote: »We have a big trip to NZ planned for November. We just got our second cancellation via email. First was an Airbnb reservation, and the second was the Hobbiton banquet dinner. Copious tears and gnashing of teeth from this Tolkien fanatic (note the user name).
Little uneasy. This is “the” retirement trip that we had planned for years, and have already spent a ton of money on.
So sorry for your loss❤️ and it is a loss. Any chance of still making this trip? Their island has fared well during this. True leadership has been a big factor.
So much sacrifice and uncertainty with this virus. It’s very scary.3 -
ExistingFish wrote: »RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
My church (which is large) has more careful opening guidelines than the state. I respect that. We have a huge church (1,500 ish every Sunday, which is far above the 50 allowed right now). Our plan is to do online through May - with the last two weeks to have outdoor services at multiple locations (to keep them small, with pre-registration) the last two weeks in May in addition to the online services. If all holds well with recoveries and testing, we will resume in-person services in June - but 5-6 services per Sunday with online registration and social distancing to keep services small. Only limited children's activities (not announced yet, except morning day camp in late July).
ETA and if I understand correctly, our churches giving has either held steady or increased. Our church has also taken measures to reduce costs, not heating or cooling most of the building (which is large), etc. My giving is online, and nothing has changed because I'm still working.
FWIW:
In Michigan, the governor's executive orders seem to use the term "places of religious worship". I was unable to find a reference to "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" in the executive orders for Michigan.
The orders exempt religious organizations from penalties for non-compliance with certain aspects of the orders - that's how they're mentioned. Religious groups of nearly all types** have been not only following the executive orders, but supporting them. ( Michigan has a substantial Muslim population, alongside diverse other religious groups (some of which don't have "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" as the formal name for their places of worship).
A group of churches (I'm using the term used in news reports) sued the governor because the exemptions to orders do not protect individuals attending services from penalties, as I understand it. Plantiffs include Word of Life Christian Center Church; Whole Life Church, a Michigan Ecclesiastical Corporation; Northern Michigan Baptist Bible Church; and some named individuals, which suggests that "churches" was a suitable word, in this case.5 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I'd guess I will fall somewhere between 1 and 2. I'm not going to run out and do all of the things, but I will definitely do more things. I will be getting a reservation at Bien Shur for my wife and I as soon as I can to belately celebrate my wife's birthday. We will be re-booking our hot air balloon ride that we had planned for my oldest back in March for his 10th birthday. I won't be going to my big box gym anytime soon...I will continue to train on Fridays at the small personal training gym my friends own. I won't be having any big parties, but I will be socializing more with friends and family. I won't be going to a movie theater anytime soon...not something we do a lot of anyway, but it will be awhile before I'm comfortable doing that...same for the trampoline parks and whatnot I often would take my kids to. I will likely avoid anything that I commonly think of as a pitre dish even in the best of times and will continue wearing a mask in situations like shopping where it can be more difficult to socially distance.4 -
I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.
You can edit your post and make sure that there is a [/ quote] before you start your own comments. I believe you might actually need TWO of them. Just type them in, preview and then Save Post when happy!
I think "preview" is only available during the initial creation of a post -- when you're editing, you have to save the changes and view the actual changed post, and then click edit again if you're not happy with the changes. At least that's my recollection using the website.
ETA: yep, just clicked edit on this post, and my only options are cancel and save post.
Edited one more time because just noticed that PAV's example of OPEN BRACKET / quote CLOSE BRACKET threw off the nesting. I'm going to insert a space and see if that fixes it.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
The position of the meat industry is that it is the personal lives of their workers that are creating the risk of infection, not workplace contact. Even assuming innovation can solve this problem, there has to be a desire to innovate. When your human workers are considered a cog that can be replaced once they're ill or injured, there isn't going to be innovation to protect them unless an outside force makes it happen. We're talking about an industry that already has one of the highest rates of workplace injury in the US -- that was before any of this happened.
The fact that people running things are too short-sighted to see the potential value of innovation in no way negates any of what I said.
And the position of the meat industry (and some politicians and Wisconsin Supreme Court justices) notwithstanding, it doesn't matter if the initial contact that brings the virus into the workplace occurred outside the workplace (that is, in fact, a truism, unless one thinks the coronavirus is spontaneously generating de novo within the plant). Working conditions that require close proximity to others for hours on hand will spread the virus through the workforce, and then back into the community when those workers go home, to the grocery store, and to whatever other businesses are open. If the government doesn't eventually shut down a plant that has become a hot spot, it will become difficult to find people to work under those conditions during a pandemic, even with high unemployment. Those plants have disproportionately immigrant workforces because it's hard to find Americans willing to work under those conditions, at those wages, even when there isn't a pandemic.
I'm not saying all that will be enough to inspire innovation, because the industry may just shrug and view it as a short-term problem that they can ride out. But it is a new external force.
3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
I don't work in manufacturing, but my job does involve procuring equipment (automated and not) for warehouses and I can confirm that the timelines are long. Sourcing, approval, delivery, installation, integration, testing, training . . . . these all take place on a timeline that seemed incredibly long to me when I first began this kind of work and it involves integrating the work of so many different teams. Even for stuff that it seems like you'd just be able to bring into a site and plug in, it's never never never that easy.
Where in any of my posts have I said timelines are not long or that plant lines can be retooled over night? I just responded to someone who wanted to know why they were still working closely together in plants by pointing out that this is how they are designed to run and it would take innovation to change it. Innovation does not equal some minor change that can be accomplished overnight.
Edited to insert omitted "not"1 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I guess I'm in group 2, since I don't have the elevated risk required to be in group 3 as defined. But I can't imagine going to eat in a restaurant or to a movie theater or sports venue any time in the foreseeable future. Maybe the gym when it reopens, if there's space enough to physically distance. I don't worry as much about touching things (like weight bars and plates) as some people do, since I would be washing my hands before and after. But if I can't find a time to go where there are few enough people that I don't feel like I'm breathing in whatever they've exhaled ... I can't see going to the gym either.
I feel bad for businesses, but not bad enough to risk catching a disease that could force me into complete self-isolation for weeks, damage almost any system in my body, leave me in an induced coma for weeks only to wake up to find myself unemployed and without health insurance, or possibly kill me.8 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
I don't work in manufacturing, but my job does involve procuring equipment (automated and not) for warehouses and I can confirm that the timelines are long. Sourcing, approval, delivery, installation, integration, testing, training . . . . these all take place on a timeline that seemed incredibly long to me when I first began this kind of work and it involves integrating the work of so many different teams. Even for stuff that it seems like you'd just be able to bring into a site and plug in, it's never never never that easy.
Where in any of my posts have I said timelines are not long or that plant lines can be retooled over night? I just responded to someone who wanted to know why they were still working closely together in plants by pointing out that this is how they are designed to run and it would take innovation to change it. Innovation does not equal some minor change that can be accomplished overnight.
Edited to insert omitted "not"
Your initial statement was "I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits."
The point is that even if the meat industry was highly motivated (they're not), it would take a long period of time to find and deliver these innovations you think will solve the problem. No innovation within the plants is going to do anything to protect worker lives or ensure a steady supply of meat today, when this problem is actually happening.
12 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.
Sorry didn't mean to hurt feelings, just from your comments it seemed that your background isn't in manufacturing/production.
7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I want to know why the meat workers are so able to get sick from this. Can't they make them work further apart? No one should be doing ANYTHING near anyone else. Full stop. Don't you realise this kills?
Not the way the plants have traditionally been run, and I guess nobody has been innovative enough to find a way to change things without reducing profits.
It's not that simple.
Given your comments I'm pretty sure you have never been in any sort of manufacturing or processing facility. Facilities are sent up for maximum efficiency so prices are lower to the consumer and the companies make a reasonable profit/return on investment.
Maximum efficiency in manufacturing/processing involves minimizing non-value added movement. Extra unneeded space between workers, their supplies, parts, etc. is waste and extra cost. Completely retrofitting a production line often involves shutting down production for weeks or months to over a year as well as considerable $. Plus if you add waste to the process, that cost will be passed on to consumers for years.
Can a few stopgap measures be done, probably but not going to have wholesale changes.
As I said, it would take innovation to figure out a different way to do things. At one time, a lot of the work done in factories was done in people's homes, piecemeal. The very idea of a factory was a huge innovation. Redesigning a factory to allow for social distancing and still make a profit would take innovation. An even bigger innovation, like the leap to the assembly line, would change things and make an even bigger profit.
You're essentially saying the same thing I am from the other side of the wall, where you can't imagine the innovation.
ETA: You see extra space between workers as a waste of money. I see extra space between workers as a way to have the same output with lower labor costs. Because you think extra space between workers requires more overall space, while I think extra space between workers can mean fewer workers. Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics.
Just so you understand my point of view, I've been in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company for about 40 years. During many parts of that time I have worked extensively with engineers and manufacturing engineers (have any idea what they do?) on cost justification for projects from new machines to new products to new factories some in the 9 figure range and have been in various types of manufacturing facilities all over the world. Believe it or not some of that work has involved the justification of automation and robotics. Additionally, I worked in several direct manufacturing rolls for a few months when our union was striking and management people had to spend time in the factory keeping production going.
I will guarantee you the large food processing facilities have as much automation as they can economically justify. You talk about innovation, sure innovation happens but large scale innovation isn't going to happen and results put in place before there is a vaccine for the virus and the problem is solved. Ordering factory equipment isn't like getting on Amazon Prime, having it delivered the next day and you can use it. Many large complex pieces of factory equipment are specifically designed for an application. There are 2 or 3 companies in the world that can make them and from the point of a signed purchase order can take a 1 or 2 until they are installed and operational.
Did you recognize that my "Given your comments I'm pretty sure you've never heard of automation or robotics" was just a paraphrase of your suggestion that you could somehow tell from my comments whether I've been in a factory? And now you're doubling down with asking whether I have "any idea" what engineers and manufacturing engineers do? I'm surprised your 40 years of being "in finance for a multi-billion $ multi-national manufacturing company" leaves you with the need to try to build yourself up by cutting other people down.
FWIW, both his posts struck me as unnecessarily patronizing. This has been an interesting thread I’m interested to see keep going. Best to avoid nit picking and certainly the put downs.10
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