Coronavirus prep
Replies
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ExistingFish wrote: »RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
My church (which is large) has more careful opening guidelines than the state. I respect that. We have a huge church (1,500 ish every Sunday, which is far above the 50 allowed right now). Our plan is to do online through May - with the last two weeks to have outdoor services at multiple locations (to keep them small, with pre-registration) the last two weeks in May in addition to the online services. If all holds well with recoveries and testing, we will resume in-person services in June - but 5-6 services per Sunday with online registration and social distancing to keep services small. Only limited children's activities (not announced yet, except morning day camp in late July).
ETA and if I understand correctly, our churches giving has either held steady or increased. Our church has also taken measures to reduce costs, not heating or cooling most of the building (which is large), etc. My giving is online, and nothing has changed because I'm still working.
FWIW:
In Michigan, the governor's executive orders seem to use the term "places of religious worship". I was unable to find a reference to "church" "synagogue" or "mosque" in the executive orders for Michigan.
Ours seems to be even more broad, simply (from the first one):
"Prohibited activities. All public and private gatherings of any number of people occurring outside a single household or living unit are prohibited, except for the limited purposes permitted by this Executive Order. Pursuant to current guidance from the CDC, any gathering of more than ten people is prohibited unless exempted by this Executive Order. Nothing in this Executive Order prohibits the gathering of members of a household or residence."
I don't see it specifically referencing religious gatherings at all, although it goes on to say that efforts to provide charitable works (such as feeding the hungry) by religious and non religious non profit organizations are essential.
A church in Rockford has sued, because they claim the gov was required to make religious services essential. Not because they claim to think that it applies only to some religious organizations and not others. (The idea that it would apply only to churches seems absurd to me and I'd never heard that. It sounds like something people would spread maliciously to rile people up rather than a reasonable belief. If anything, if orders specifically refer to churches or churches and synagogues, I'd think that was because of forgetting there are significant numbers of people of other religious here. Plus in the law "church and state" is shorthand for any religion/state issue, obviously not Christian specific.)
The Archdiocese had stopped public masses BEFORE our first order, as noted, but were leaving churches open at certain hours for private prayer (I tried to go to mine but hadn't realized the hours were limited by the church's choice). After the order they ceased that, but I'm not sure the order requires it (you could certainly social distance) and they certainly did not argue it was somehow offensive or improper. (My current parish does not do a streamed mass, but my last one does, as does the Cathedral here.)3 -
One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
Yep, I'm calling 2020 the "Lost Year" too
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »I don't get why my previous comment was in the quote box when posted as it didn't appear to be so in the post itself.
You can edit your post and make sure that there is a [/ quote] before you start your own comments. I believe you might actually need TWO of them. Just type them in, preview and then Save Post when happy!
I think "preview" is only available during the initial creation of a post -- when you're editing, you have to save the changes and view the actual changed post, and then click edit again if you're not happy with the changes. At least that's my recollection using the website.
ETA: yep, just clicked edit on this post, and my only options are cancel and save post.
Edited one more time because just noticed that PAV's example of OPEN BRACKET / quote CLOSE BRACKET threw off the nesting. I'm going to insert a space and see if that fixes it.
Having a [/ quote] in there would definitely throw things off when re-quoted! It didn't throw things off in my original post!
The post that prompted our comments needed TWO x [/ quote] (without the space) to fix the rat's nest!
And... you're right. When editing I guess you can't re-preview before saving!2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »One of the talking heads I listen to floated this "model" for how we're going to re-open, and I pretty much agree with it.
The idea is we'll have 3 cohorts of maybe equal-ish size. The first is going to rush directly out to shop, get haircuts, eat, visit parks, etc. They're the "early adopters." The second group is going to closely watch what happens with the first group. Perhaps they "set their watches" for 3 or 4 weeks before deciding whether the water looks safe. The final group is elderly and/or has serious underlying illness such that waiting for a vaccine or reliable treatment is really their only option.
I took a poll of my friends and family, and nearly all of us are part of group 2. A few of us are pessimistic about doing any of our "normal" things any time this year. Back in April, I called 2020 "The Lost Year."
For the economically minded, the problem here is that SMBs will continue to struggle on 1/3 or 1/2 their usual volume.
I guess I'm in group 2, since I don't have the elevated risk required to be in group 3 as defined. But I can't imagine going to eat in a restaurant or to a movie theater or sports venue any time in the foreseeable future. Maybe the gym when it reopens, if there's space enough to physically distance. I don't worry as much about touching things (like weight bars and plates) as some people do, since I would be washing my hands before and after. But if I can't find a time to go where there are few enough people that I don't feel like I'm breathing in whatever they've exhaled ... I can't see going to the gym either.
Yeah, this is where I am too. Not sure about the gym (it will depend on circumstances), and I'm not paranoid about touching things for the same reasons, but not planning to flock back to the restaurants or crowded stores or any of my previously planned public gatherings, and I expect the latter will be canceled. I'll probably go to my office in June if they subsidize me parking (parking downtown here is really expensive) or I absolutely need to (same with May if I have a need to go as we are technically essential, and there are some things harder to do from home). It won't be all that heavily populated, so not hard to social distance. I'm not excited to ride public transit again so will be holding off on that. I think a lot of businesses if allowed to open all the way may find it not worth the costs, at least here, as I think the customer flow will be low.
I was participating in a group I'm in (that normally meets in person) by Zoom today, and some suggested we might be able to meet in person by July, but most (admittedly some are older) said it would be more likely to be when there's snow on the ground. And that assumes there's not a huge seasonal aspect to this and we don't have a repeat of the Spanish flu pattern. I have a ton of depositions in June also, and have talked to people all over the country, and so far no one expects or wants that those should go forward in person or that any business traveling will be occurring.6 -
This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#8 -
My state is supposed to be having very limited opening of curbside pickup for some retail and manufacturing...starting yesterday. That's the extent of the reopening. My neighborhood seems to have gone crazy. Half the restaurants are blatantly open today (a couple have been secretly open throughout this) and curbside pickup of retail seems to mean shops put all their wares out on the sidewalk for outside shopping. It's like the 4th of July weekend in my little beach town today.4
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It makes me both sad and angry that some of the people I know are more focused on finding ways to circumvent the existing rules, than to follow them in order to keep themselves (and everyone else around them) as safe as possible.
Sorry about the rant, I just needed to vent.
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RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
Yes i think they should use a general all encompassing term like Religious gatherings, in a secular country.
but which people are upset?? -the mosque attenders or the church attenders??
Here in Australia the rules are about 'Places of worship' and 'Religious gatherings'.
It does not matter nor is it stipulated whether the place is a church, mosque, temple, synagogue, anything else or the gathering is for Easter, Ramadan, Passover, Arrival of flying spaghetti monster.
What your beliefs are and what you want to celebrate is irelevant - No Gatherings.
(now changing to 10 people at a time)7 -
Arrival of flying spaghetti monster. I love it!5
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T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#
This article made me think about one I read several weeks ago which talked about (and had a graph depicting) the uptick in COVID19 deaths mirroring an uptick in total deaths. I went looking for it to share, and managed not to find it, but I did find this one which is almost as interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html5 -
Another interesting article. Thank you both for sharing.0
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In PA, the Governor is partially opening up parts of the state, a little bit at a time. He originally said what was necessary to reopen, but then changed the rules, so certain counties that met the requirements are still not allowed to open. The result is open rebellion from county leaders. AT least four counties have said that they will open, Governor's orders or not. There are prosecuters who say they will refuse to prosecute and sheriffs who will refuse to fine people who open businesses despite the shutdown. Our local congressman said that our county was not going to remain shut, even though our cases are still increasing at a pretty good rate. Even with the partial reopening, there is a limit to which businesses are allowed to open - i.e. no hair salons, gyms, etc. so going from red to yellow won't affect most of the small businesses, just the factories and workshops, but it is interesting to see the open defiance from local leadership. Response has been mixed, from what I've seein on FB. Two months is as long as people were willing to go along with the rules - and even then, I've seen work going on against orders. Some people are happy at the open defiance, but a lot are really upset.3
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Sounds like anarchy...2
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My sister takes care of our mom, and mom is suffering from isolation. She's a very social person. She wants to get her hair done--she's had the same hair stylist for about 15 years and they are very close; she misses her. She also wants to visit the nail salon. Sis was making a point not to tell mom that salons for hair and nails will open in FL this week, but then our brother let it slip. Mom, almost 91, is determined to go. We hope she changes her mind--she is not ready to die, by her own admission. She has avoided serious illness nearly her whole life and waivers between counting on her immune system and knowing what is safest. I feel for her and will support her whatever she chooses, but I'll continue to pray she chooses to stay home.
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paperpudding wrote: »RE: Churches. A lot of people are upset that in guidance, it is "churches" or "churches and synagogues" - the word "mosque" is never used. They should either say "religious gatherings" or name them all. It gives the impression that some religions are allowed to continue their services and others are not. I don't think that is the point of the ruling, but it gives that impression to a lot of people. Some governors have said they will shut down churches permanently if they break guidelines. This isn't applied to businesses, so it feels they are singling out churches.
Our state government has put up "guidance" for religious groups, and "directives" for all other groups. He said he understands that the government should not be governing how people worship, but the state does have authority and power over all the other industries. I respect that.
Yes i think they should use a general all encompassing term like Religious gatherings, in a secular country.
I'm not trying to be political here, but to respond to the claim that somehow Christian services are the only ones here affected and non Christian religions are allowed to have gatherings (or exempted from the orders). I think that's flatly false, so if people are being told that, we should examine the sources.
WRT your statement about how orders should use broadly inclusive terms -- yes, of course they should, but one problem in the US is biased media, and I wonder to what extent states are not (1) in fact actually using general all encompassing terms (as Ann and I noted, in our states they absolutely did and I have no reason to think our states are unusual in that respect -- did CA or NY exempt non Christian religions?); or (2) failing to do so (in some less diverse states) because they didn't think about the existence of non Christian (or non Christian and Jewish) religions vs. -- as claimed by certain biased media, I suspect -- supposedly giving other religions free range to have large gatherings (i.e., regular religious gatherings), and thus supposedly treating them with more favoritism than Christians.
The suggestion that ANYONE is saying it's fine to have such gatherings if one is not Christian (again, as suggested), so it's a particular persecution of Christians (as the post in question seems to suggest has been reported in some media and some believe) is completely absurd and non credible. My state (which as noted doesn't call out religious gatherings at all) has a Dem dominated gov't (i.e., the one claimed by the right to be unfair to Christians) and Ann's has a higher percentage of Muslims than most. (And again I say this because I get frustrated at people in other countries being given a wrong or distorted idea of what is happening in the US.) It's also contrary to the fact that some of the groups getting called out for violating the order have been ultra orthodox Jews (an issue in both Chicago and NYC, I know), so clearly there's 0 reason to think it's Christian specific. (I'm not aware of Muslims here violating, but they would be called out too. And it's also true I've been trying to follow the news less obsessively, since it was bad for my state of mind over the past month or so.)
As a possible comparison, my dad (who consumes a lot of a certain kind of media) was given the impression that people here (Chicago) were being prosecuted merely for having some family members over, and that the city was devoting significant police resources to such things (which is also absurd). While I think even smaller parties are unwise in the current times, what was actually happening was crack downs on, and the mayor slamming, those who are having huge -- as in advertised in the media -- house parties and trying to shut those down by towing cars and imposing large fines. Luckily such things are not happening in my neighborhood, but they appear to be an issue in some others. And I think her actions wrt those make total sense, especially in that we are a hotspot and they are often happening in the biggest hotspot areas.4 -
My husband’s 87 year old grandfather is a barber and has been cutting hair on the sly - either the back basement entry of the shop, or in his carport... oi... his philosophy at one point was that he wasn’t worried because he knows his customers and they aren’t traveling so it’s OK, I surely hope he doesn’t still believe that.GummiMundi wrote: »It makes me both sad and angry that some of the people I know are more focused on finding ways to circumvent the existing rules, than to follow them in order to keep themselves (and everyone else around them) as safe as possible.
Sorry about the rant, I just needed to vent.
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@mkculs13 I'm right there with you. This is exactly what started the wheels in motion for what's become 4 months of a living hail. The beauty salon. My relative just had to get over there and nothing has been the same since. I keep saying there's no frickity frick frick hairdo that's worth your life but that goes over like a lead balloon. They want to head right back over to the 'Corona House' for another dose of reality and I'm ready to pull all of my hair out, pack my bags and blow this popstand. It seems like all of my efforts have been in vain and I'm at my wit's end with the hairdo thing. I look like Boris J. from the UK and I don't care. I like his style. Effortless. Just wash, rinse, repeat and don't worry about what your hair looks like.
When the folkaronies become really set in their ways and stubborn as mules there's not a lorra lorra we can do about it. I know how to cut hair but she won't let me. I have to go out to the barn and talk to myself. I remind myself that this is kin and my family obligation. I've made promises and I have to keep them. It ain't easy.
Happy Mother's Day
Today, I'm thinking about all those who've gone before me. I remember my grandparents, great grandparents and all of their friends. I'm the first grandchild out of the chute and they were so good to me. They had wisdom. Nothing technical but their wisdom was 70 and 80 years ahead of me back then. I'm still carrying them around in my heart. I remember the things they said while driving me town in their old pickup trucks. I can't wait to see all of them again but I'm in no hurry. No hurry whatsoever. There's not a hairdo on the face of this earth that's worth your life.22 -
gradchica27 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I just wanted to be clear, too, that when someone in the US (TN, I think) is surprised that churches opening and having in-person services isn't a big deal in AU, and says that it is one of the biggest deals here, it should be clear that's not true throughout the US. Because for most of us in many places the churches (or vast majority of them) aren't demanding that in-person services should be held and voluntarily chose to stop them for safety reasons -- probably similar to what happened in AU. When Trump was talking about opening churches for Easter, the Archdiocese here had already canceled Easter mass (and again same with all the mainline Protestant churches I know, although many of them aren't as centralized). So the idea that it's a huge issue with churches demanding to open is regional or local (or somewhat sectarian and politicized), IMO.
Across the world, church services and other religious gatherings have been the source of a number of super-spreading events, unfortunately, and I think responsible churches are well aware of and concerned about that.
I have to admit I have no idea why religious leaders want to take these risks, other than it is easier to pass a collection plate onsite.
I work at home and communicate with people from all across the country constantly and have productive meetings. A number of churches do this as well. A forward-thinking pastor streaming his sermon and posting a link to a pay app can keep the church solvent for a few months while protecting his congregation's health. If yours is not innovative and is careless with your health then maybe you should reevaluate your church?
I have been very supportive of our bishop suspending public Masses, I haven’t tried to find “underground” Masses in different dioceses/states, or anything like that, and have waited patiently for a resumption of public Masses, which will happen here next weekend (presenting my Bona fides as a person concerned for the health of others, and as my non-membership in the vocal minority of fringe “keep your government hands off my church service!” groups).
So, that being said, there are legitimate reasons besides $ that churches want to open. I can only speak for members of my own Church, obviously, but for Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. So being in church = physically being in the presence of Christ. That is not something you can get on live-stream. Receiving the Eucharist is physically receiving Him—again, not something you can live-stream. I’m not trying to hijack this thread to debate religion, and I get that others might not understand why this is so important, but I do want to point out that many many Catholics I know, myself included, are truly longing for that which we can’t get through a screen. Mass is not a meeting, it’s a sacrifice, and productivity has nothing to do with it. Comparing it to a Zoomed business meeting is...well, kinda demeaning, actually.
Honestly, we’ve been live-streaming Masses from some gorgeous churches around the country (including Chicago ) with better music, more beautiful art, and more inspiring homilies than our home parish. We can get that via live-stream, but none of those things are “the point” of Mass, none of that is “enough.” So that’s why we want to go back.
Our churches are roping off pews, opening different spaces (gyms, large fellowship halls) to hold several Masses at one time to give people space, smaller ones are asking parishioners to call ahead to reserve a pew, since fewer will be available, they are encouraging us to wear masks, and encouraging older/vulnerable people to stay home. So precautions are being taken and people are free to stay home, it’s not a matter of pastors being insensitive, careless , or money hungry.
Very well said. In my country, Anglican priests have had a massive salary cut and some laid off. Not enough money coming in apparently. In my church where we do NOT have paid clergy, there has been no decline in the money coming in, and that will go towards the usual maintenance and expenses. Meanwhile we're meeting by Zoom until the government allows otherwise.1 -
springlering62 wrote: »We have a big trip to NZ planned for November. We just got our second cancellation via email. First was an Airbnb reservation, and the second was the Hobbiton banquet dinner. Copious tears and gnashing of teeth from this Tolkien fanatic (note the user name).
Little uneasy. This is “the” retirement trip that we had planned for years, and have already spent a ton of money on.
Our family isn't at retirement age yet, but we had a little trip planned for April. After the virus started to spread and quarantines and border closures started to roll out, we called the airline. They allowed us to cancel those dates and reuse the value of those tickets within 12 months. If the airline collapses due to many weeks of not flying, our money is dead, but at least my family is alive. People have lost bigger sums of money I'm sure.8 -
@ lemurcat - since you quoted my post - so are you saying the previous post which I responded to was incorrect??
- ie the actual regulations DO say a general term like Religious gatherings (as our Aus guidelines do and I was saying should be the case) but sections of the media are whipping up some non existent Christian are being picked on/ Other religions are being favouritised paranoia?2 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »In PA, the Governor is partially opening up parts of the state, a little bit at a time. He originally said what was necessary to reopen, but then changed the rules, so certain counties that met the requirements are still not allowed to open. The result is open rebellion from county leaders. AT least four counties have said that they will open, Governor's orders or not. There are prosecuters who say they will refuse to prosecute and sheriffs who will refuse to fine people who open businesses despite the shutdown. Our local congressman said that our county was not going to remain shut, even though our cases are still increasing at a pretty good rate. Even with the partial reopening, there is a limit to which businesses are allowed to open - i.e. no hair salons, gyms, etc. so going from red to yellow won't affect most of the small businesses, just the factories and workshops, but it is interesting to see the open defiance from local leadership. Response has been mixed, from what I've seein on FB. Two months is as long as people were willing to go along with the rules - and even then, I've seen work going on against orders. Some people are happy at the open defiance, but a lot are really upset.
at the risk of sounding like a stuck record - this is one of the reasons spread has been contained in Australia.
There has been minor disagreement on detail - but no politically motivated defiance from lower levels of leadership or mixed messages to the public.
although I hasten to add there was a protest in Melbourne yesterday - a group protesting about coronavirus restrictions, 5g network and vaccinations.
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paperpudding wrote: »spiriteagle99 wrote: »In PA, the Governor is partially opening up parts of the state, a little bit at a time. He originally said what was necessary to reopen, but then changed the rules, so certain counties that met the requirements are still not allowed to open. The result is open rebellion from county leaders. AT least four counties have said that they will open, Governor's orders or not. There are prosecuters who say they will refuse to prosecute and sheriffs who will refuse to fine people who open businesses despite the shutdown. Our local congressman said that our county was not going to remain shut, even though our cases are still increasing at a pretty good rate. Even with the partial reopening, there is a limit to which businesses are allowed to open - i.e. no hair salons, gyms, etc. so going from red to yellow won't affect most of the small businesses, just the factories and workshops, but it is interesting to see the open defiance from local leadership. Response has been mixed, from what I've seein on FB. Two months is as long as people were willing to go along with the rules - and even then, I've seen work going on against orders. Some people are happy at the open defiance, but a lot are really upset.
at the risk of sounding like a stuck record - this is one of the reasons spread has been contained in Australia.
There has been minor disagreement on detail - but no politically motivated defiance from lower levels of leadership or mixed messages to the public.
although I hasten to add there was a protest in Melbourne yesterday - a group protesting about coronavirus restrictions, 5g network and vaccinations.
Small protest in Sydney too... woman complained that she and her child were traumatised by police.. smh, you took your kid to a protest😒5 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#
Very interesting!! So the numbers only sound high, while being very much in line with the other top leading causes of death. This will soon be so ordinary it won't even be news.
Hope you all heard the sarcasm in my voice.2 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »This news article has an interesting graphic to show Covid-19 daily deaths compared to other leading causes of death.
https://www.ketv.com/article/coronavirus-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states/32380058?fbclid=IwAR0e55H7_PtwjICSDBgP8kIkVB0FmHF8AtAOTnxLNIi6DX761rHWe2KNJK4#
Very interesting!! So the numbers only sound high, while being very much in line with the other top leading causes of death. This will soon be so ordinary it won't even be news.
Hope you all heard the sarcasm in my voice.
Yes, but while it hovers day-to-day as one of the top few causes of death now, it may be successful in reaching #1 and staying #1 if people keep ignoring reasonable precautions like face coverings, social distancing, and frequent hand washing.9 -
paperpudding wrote: »@ lemurcat - since you quoted my post - so are you saying the previous post which I responded to was incorrect??
- ie the actual regulations DO say a general term like Religious gatherings (as our Aus guidelines do and I was saying should be the case) but sections of the media are whipping up some non existent Christian are being picked on/ Other religions are being favouritised paranoia?
The guidelines are at state levels, in the US, and sometimes there's further guidance at more local levels (city, county, whatever). Lemur and I reported on 2 states. I'm not going to speak for her, but I personally wouldn't volunteer to research the other 48 states to see how they phrased their orders.
I think her analysis is likely correct: That if some did say "churches", it was out of a lack of insight about some religions not using that term for their places of worship, not out of intent to exempt non-Christians from the restrictions. And since the US overall is Christian-majority, to the extent that people are religious, it's patently absurd to believe that Christian-majority governmental officials are deliberately favoring other religions by letting them keep worship services going while Christians are prevented from gathering.
But yes, it's very likely that some sections of the media are whipping up resentment by misrepresenting what's going on. Some are capable of manufacturing out of whole cloth the idea that other religions are exempt; or of cherry-picking word choices from interviews or speeches by politicians where the person said "church" rather than "place of worship" or some other generic term, to create that impression.
The ridiculous things that some media outlets spread here are absurd. I've seen media reports in the past saying that Dearborn - a Michigan city with a substantial Muslim population - is now under Sharia law (the topless bars and Honeybaked Ham outlet notwithstanding, it seems), and that (well before the pandemic, BTW) all the Christian churches there have been shut down (there are many, of diverse Christian denominations). Even some people who live in Michigan, who have actually been in Dearborn, who know how to run a Google search (to, say, check on the church closure rumor) have fallen for this cr*p.
ETA: The above is not a statement about politics or religion. It's a statement about fringe media publishing patently non-factual information. Please don't make any assumptions about my politics or religion based on what I wrote above, because it's irrelevant . . . and you'd probably guess wrong.
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Interesting take on how the pandemic ends... the author notes there is a difference between the medical pandemic and the societal / fear pandemic. Their ends are likely not the same:
How Pandemics End https://nyti.ms/3fCdRJ11 -
paperpudding wrote: »@ lemurcat - since you quoted my post - so are you saying the previous post which I responded to was incorrect??
- ie the actual regulations DO say a general term like Religious gatherings (as our Aus guidelines do and I was saying should be the case) but sections of the media are whipping up some non existent Christian are being picked on/ Other religions are being favouritised paranoia?
Yes, I think that's true -- in my state and Ann's (which were the only two quoted) they were NOT religiously specific at all, and I'm positive no one is enforcing it in a religiously specific manner. In that there are 50 states, I have not read all (or even most), but I've heard absolutely nothing suggesting any state is differentiating between religions and non would preference non Christian religions -- although that seems to be the rumor the other post was suggesting people bought into. (And oddly enough I suspect this concern is more prominent in states that are MORE likely to be vastly majority Christian (and with a higher percentage of Christian denominations that have not, like most here (including, as noted, the Archdiocese and mainline Protestants), been voluntarily been responding responsibly to COVID, and LESS likely to have any meaningful number of non Christians, which makes it extra weird.)
Also, in US law, (1) most orders restrict gatherings above 10 people, unless exempted, so the lack of reference to non Christian religions would not matter; and (2) in the law "church" gets interpreted broadly to mean "religion" so the argument makes no sense anyway.
Murdoch media may well be stirring people up otherwise (I think so, but I dunno, I don't consume it), but presumably AU can't blame the US 100% for that, no? Pretty sure Murdoch is from AU.7 -
gradchica27 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I just wanted to be clear, too, that when someone in the US (TN, I think) is surprised that churches opening and having in-person services isn't a big deal in AU, and says that it is one of the biggest deals here, it should be clear that's not true throughout the US. Because for most of us in many places the churches (or vast majority of them) aren't demanding that in-person services should be held and voluntarily chose to stop them for safety reasons -- probably similar to what happened in AU. When Trump was talking about opening churches for Easter, the Archdiocese here had already canceled Easter mass (and again same with all the mainline Protestant churches I know, although many of them aren't as centralized). So the idea that it's a huge issue with churches demanding to open is regional or local (or somewhat sectarian and politicized), IMO.
Across the world, church services and other religious gatherings have been the source of a number of super-spreading events, unfortunately, and I think responsible churches are well aware of and concerned about that.
I have to admit I have no idea why religious leaders want to take these risks, other than it is easier to pass a collection plate onsite.
I work at home and communicate with people from all across the country constantly and have productive meetings. A number of churches do this as well. A forward-thinking pastor streaming his sermon and posting a link to a pay app can keep the church solvent for a few months while protecting his congregation's health. If yours is not innovative and is careless with your health then maybe you should reevaluate your church?
I have been very supportive of our bishop suspending public Masses, I haven’t tried to find “underground” Masses in different dioceses/states, or anything like that, and have waited patiently for a resumption of public Masses, which will happen here next weekend (presenting my Bona fides as a person concerned for the health of others, and as my non-membership in the vocal minority of fringe “keep your government hands off my church service!” groups).
So, that being said, there are legitimate reasons besides $ that churches want to open. I can only speak for members of my own Church, obviously, but for Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. So being in church = physically being in the presence of Christ. That is not something you can get on live-stream. Receiving the Eucharist is physically receiving Him—again, not something you can live-stream. I’m not trying to hijack this thread to debate religion, and I get that others might not understand why this is so important, but I do want to point out that many many Catholics I know, myself included, are truly longing for that which we can’t get through a screen. Mass is not a meeting, it’s a sacrifice, and productivity has nothing to do with it. Comparing it to a Zoomed business meeting is...well, kinda demeaning, actually.
Honestly, we’ve been live-streaming Masses from some gorgeous churches around the country (including Chicago ) with better music, more beautiful art, and more inspiring homilies than our home parish. We can get that via live-stream, but none of those things are “the point” of Mass, none of that is “enough.” So that’s why we want to go back.
Our churches are roping off pews, opening different spaces (gyms, large fellowship halls) to hold several Masses at one time to give people space, smaller ones are asking parishioners to call ahead to reserve a pew, since fewer will be available, they are encouraging us to wear masks, and encouraging older/vulnerable people to stay home. So precautions are being taken and people are free to stay home, it’s not a matter of pastors being insensitive, careless , or money hungry.
Very well said. In my country, Anglican priests have had a massive salary cut and some laid off. Not enough money coming in apparently. In my church where we do NOT have paid clergy, there has been no decline in the money coming in, and that will go towards the usual maintenance and expenses. Meanwhile we're meeting by Zoom until the government allows otherwise.
Odd. I'm Catholic and our clergy is paid (in that it's their job, as well as of course vocation, and one doesn't want people to focus on money-making), but none is being "laid off" due to coronavirus or the lack of in person masses to my knowledge.
I donate on line and have not changed my donation.3 -
paperpudding wrote: »@ lemurcat - since you quoted my post - so are you saying the previous post which I responded to was incorrect??
- ie the actual regulations DO say a general term like Religious gatherings (as our Aus guidelines do and I was saying should be the case) but sections of the media are whipping up some non existent Christian are being picked on/ Other religions are being favouritised paranoia?
The guidelines are at state levels, in the US, and sometimes there's further guidance at more local levels (city, county, whatever). Lemur and I reported on 2 states. I'm not going to speak for her, but I personally wouldn't volunteer to research the other 48 states to see how they phrased their orders.
I can report on Indiana. Below is the section in the governor's order:
14. Religious Entities and Places of Worship
a. Virtual Services Preferred: Places of worship and faith communities are encouraged to continue livestream services or otherwise provide virtual services to safely serve their communities, or alternatively, conduct drive-in services.
b. In either Stage 1 or 2: On or after May 8, 2020, religious services, including wedding ceremonies and funeral services, may continue and will no longer be subject to limits on social gatherings. However, social distancing and other sanitation measures outlined in will continue to apply. Wedding receptions and visitations before or after funerals remain subject to the limitations and restrictions for social gatherings
So our orders are including all. Yet I will say in the media I have heard more about "Churches being closed" then "Places of Worship". Maybe it is because we have a very large Catholic population over others, but, at least where i am specifically, we also have a decent sized Muslim population. So who knows.2 -
paperpudding wrote: »@ lemurcat - since you quoted my post - so are you saying the previous post which I responded to was incorrect??
- ie the actual regulations DO say a general term like Religious gatherings (as our Aus guidelines do and I was saying should be the case) but sections of the media are whipping up some non existent Christian are being picked on/ Other religions are being favouritised paranoia?
Yes, I think that's true -- in my state and Ann's (which were the only two quoted) they were NOT religiously specific at all, and I'm positive no one is enforcing it in a religiously specific manner. In that there are 50 states, I have not read all (or even most), but I've heard absolutely nothing suggesting any state is differentiating between religions and non would preference non Christian religions -- although that seems to be the rumor the other post was suggesting people bought into. (And oddly enough I suspect this concern is more prominent in states that are MORE likely to be vastly majority Christian (and with a higher percentage of Christian denominations that have not, like most here (including, as noted, the Archdiocese and mainline Protestants), been voluntarily been responding responsibly to COVID, and LESS likely to have any meaningful number of non Christians, which makes it extra weird.)
Also, in US law, (1) most orders restrict gatherings above 10 people, unless exempted, so the lack of reference to non Christian religions would not matter; and (2) in the law "church" gets interpreted broadly to mean "religion" so the argument makes no sense anyway.
Murdoch media may well be stirring people up otherwise (I think so, but I dunno, I don't consume it), but presumably AU can't blame the US 100% for that, no? Pretty sure Murdoch is from AU.
Even here in the "Bible Belt" (Tennessee), the executive order (expired Apr. 30) listed this as an exemption:Religious and Ceremonial Functions. This includes, but is not limited to: religious facilities, entities, groups, personnel, services, rites, and gatherings, including weddings and funerals, provided that the Health Guidelines set forth in Executive Order No. 22 are followed to the greatest extent practicable;
As you can see, no specific religion was named despite that protestant Christians are in the majority here. If there is some state that specifies one religion that is exempted while others are not, I am unaware of that.
As an atheist myself, I still could have gotten married (this is on the list of things that will never happen) or gone to a funeral here in TN.3
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