Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat
Replies
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richiechowns wrote: »Sorry for all the questions, early days.
Reference lifting, I don't lift as such, other than my body weight, is that detrimental to recomp.
And I'm also vegan, so just need to work out the best way to set my macros for protein then eat enough without relying on shakes abs blocks of tempeh.
The concept of recomp is to build muscle while reducing body fat. Building muscle requires some kind of progressive resistance. Some people are able to achieve that with body weight exercise, although I wouldn't call it optimum.
As I understand you goals, you want to to lean down, be generally fit with a focus more on cardio exercises, yes? You are doing some body weight stuff for general fitness? Do you still have about 20(?) lbs of body fat that you want to reduce?
My goal is to be stronger, so simply at this moment in time I'm working on pull up and dips etc, to gain enough strength to do those.
I've seen distance runners, some faster and older than me with better strength and definition. I'm 5 foot 11 and weight 69kg, so I'd say less than 20lbs of body fat to reduce.1 -
richiechowns wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »Sorry for all the questions, early days.
Reference lifting, I don't lift as such, other than my body weight, is that detrimental to recomp.
And I'm also vegan, so just need to work out the best way to set my macros for protein then eat enough without relying on shakes abs blocks of tempeh.
The concept of recomp is to build muscle while reducing body fat. Building muscle requires some kind of progressive resistance. Some people are able to achieve that with body weight exercise, although I wouldn't call it optimum.
As I understand you goals, you want to to lean down, be generally fit with a focus more on cardio exercises, yes? You are doing some body weight stuff for general fitness? Do you still have about 20(?) lbs of body fat that you want to reduce?
My goal is to be stronger, so simply at this moment in time I'm working on pull up and dips etc, to gain enough strength to do those.
I've seen distance runners, some faster and older than me with better strength and definition. I'm 5 foot 11 and weight 69kg, so I'd say less than 20lbs of body fat to reduce.
Hard to say if or for how long that kind of routine would help with recomp. You might want to consider a slight, maybe 200 to 300 calorie, deficit. This will help you lean down slowly and help with maintaining muscle mass to get the definition you are looking for.
ETA: at you height and weight, I'd be surprised you have any fat to lose.1 -
richiechowns wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »Sorry for all the questions, early days.
Reference lifting, I don't lift as such, other than my body weight, is that detrimental to recomp.
And I'm also vegan, so just need to work out the best way to set my macros for protein then eat enough without relying on shakes abs blocks of tempeh.
The concept of recomp is to build muscle while reducing body fat. Building muscle requires some kind of progressive resistance. Some people are able to achieve that with body weight exercise, although I wouldn't call it optimum.
As I understand you goals, you want to to lean down, be generally fit with a focus more on cardio exercises, yes? You are doing some body weight stuff for general fitness? Do you still have about 20(?) lbs of body fat that you want to reduce?
My goal is to be stronger, so simply at this moment in time I'm working on pull up and dips etc, to gain enough strength to do those.
I've seen distance runners, some faster and older than me with better strength and definition. I'm 5 foot 11 and weight 69kg, so I'd say less than 20lbs of body fat to reduce.
Hard to say if or for how long that kind of routine would help with recomp. You might want to consider a slight, maybe 200 to 300 calorie, deficit. This will help you lean down slowly and help with maintaining muscle mass to get the definition you are looking for.
ETA: at you height and weight, I'd be surprised you have any fat to lose.
It is not a huge amount to lose really, just a bit to get definition.1 -
Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?0 -
richiechowns wrote: »Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?
That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.
The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.
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Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.
https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/
I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion!
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DrTeeeevil wrote: »Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.
https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/
I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion!
Awesome! Thx for sharing this. I was using a g / lb weight. wrong....0 -
richiechowns wrote: »Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?
That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.
The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.
Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.
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DrTeeeevil wrote: »Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.
https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/
I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion!
Seems if you search Google and look at healthline.com for example it is shown as 1g per lb or 2.2g per kg.
Which source is correct info I wonder...
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richiechowns wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?
That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.
The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.
Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.
It's .73g - 1g per lb or 1.7-2.2g/kg. You need closer to 120-150g of protein. Although, based on the information I have seen from Eric Helms, Brad Schoendfeld, an argument can be made to be at the top end or higher while you are trying to build muscle.
ETA: It should be noted that those protein numbers are based on animal proteins which are higher quality due to higher levels of L-Luecine. If anyone is plant based, they should be consuming higher amounts.1 -
richiechowns wrote: »DrTeeeevil wrote: »Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.
https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/
I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion!
Seems if you search Google and look at healthline.com for example it is shown as 1g per lb or 2.2g per kg.
Which source is correct info I wonder...
The correct answer comes from Dr. Stuart Phillips and Dr. Brad Schoenfeld. They are, respectively, the # 1 and # 2 protein metabolism researchers in the world.1 -
So more protein as a vegan.
Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM0 -
My math
CW = 169 lbs
C LMM = 155 lbs lean muscle mass at last caliper test. (I know many don't believe I'm at 9% BF but oh well that's what I measure.)
155 lbs = 70 kg lean muscle mass
@0.8g/kg = 0.8*70=56g
@1.2/kg = 1.2*70=84g
@1.4/kg = 1.4*70=100g
So I've been naturally eating 84g a day and not gaining or losing.
I'm going to increase to 100g a day and see what can happen. For me this means a cup of Greek yogurt every evening. I don't even need to do protein powder to get there.0 -
richiechowns wrote: »So more protein as a vegan.
Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM
A good goal (as a range) would be 117-150g. It doesn't always have to be perfect. But like @haybales stated, the resistance training aspect is going to be key. You need a good resistance based stimulus to drive growth. HIIT and cardio isn't going to fully cut it.
And if you are trying to squeeze out all the gains, you should consume around 30g of high quality protein 3-4x a day.2 -
richiechowns wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?
That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.
The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.
Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.
121g based on pounds.1 -
My math
CW = 169 lbs
C LMM = 155 lbs lean muscle mass at last caliper test. (I know many don't believe I'm at 9% BF but oh well that's what I measure.)
155 lbs = 70 kg lean muscle mass
@0.8g/kg = 0.8*70=56g
@1.2/kg = 1.2*70=84g
@1.4/kg = 1.4*70=100g
So I've been naturally eating 84g a day and not gaining or losing.
I'm going to increase to 100g a day and see what can happen. For me this means a cup of Greek yogurt every evening. I don't even need to do protein powder to get there.
You are off. It's 1.7-2.2g/kg. You are mixing lbs and kg recommendations.4 -
richiechowns wrote: »DrTeeeevil wrote: »Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.
https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/
I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion!
Seems if you search Google and look at healthline.com for example it is shown as 1g per lb or 2.2g per kg.
Which source is correct info I wonder...
The numbers I gave you were from Dr. Eric Helms one of the most prominent researchers who has synthesized much of the research on protein in his writing. BTW, he is a super interesting and intelligent guy and is worth reading or listening to his podcasts. Healthline is not a create resource for this type of data IMHO.
According to Helms .75 grams per lb is the sweet spot. .8 grams gives a little buffer. Beyond that the benefits diminish. Of course if someone has had Dexa scans or Hydrostatic testing and knows their body fat with a reasonable degree of accuracy, 1 grams per lb of lean mass.
Edited to add: I didn't notice there was another page and psuLemon had added in some good info and additional details.2 -
richiechowns wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.
My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.
When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?
I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?
That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.
The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.
Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.
It's .73g - 1g per lb or 1.7-2.2g/kg. You need closer to 120-150g of protein. Although, based on the information I have seen from Eric Helms, Brad Schoendfeld, an argument can be made to be at the top end or higher while you are trying to build muscle.
ETA: It should be noted that those protein numbers are based on animal proteins which are higher quality due to higher levels of L-Luecine. If anyone is plant based, they should be consuming higher amounts.
As a vegan, yes you want to consume more for the reasons psuLemon details above.1 -
So this article in MFP is wrong?
Please provide links to support your statements. THX
I really want to get this straight.0 -
So this article in MFP is wrong?
Please provide links to support your statements. THX
I really want to get this straight.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0174-y
Here is a good study that goes through a variety of situations. If you are maintaining, I would get it around 1.4-1.7g/kg. It gets higher during weight loss and the muscle building.0 -
Yes that is wrong according to much better sources.
Which were referenced above.
Oh - just gotta add.
LBM is Lean Body Mass - it's everything not fat - water, bones, muscle, organs.
It's not Lean Muscle Mass. No such thing really. well, except at butcher perhaps getting a lean cut of meat.
ETA - that chart isn't far off though, just a little low.
The math they do for you though is rather sad though - where is 0.8 in the chart?2 -
So this article in MFP is wrong?
Please provide links to support your statements. THX
I really want to get this straight.
Hey
Your current protein intake is low compared with what most lifters would regard as optimal. Eric helms book on nutrition is worth a read if you want some solid reliable info and advice.2 -
richiechowns wrote: »So more protein as a vegan.
Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM
Admittedly an extreme non-expert on recomp, I'm nonetheless in to say two things:
1. Speaking as a long term vegetarian: Yes, more protein as a vegan (or vegetarian). Also, assess what fraction of your protein is coming from relatively more essential amino acid (EAA) complete sources (can it be improved?), and vary your incomplete sources to get varied amino acid profiles. (You don't need to make a detailed ongoing research study of this, or compulsively complement amino acid profiles, just give it a little thought and apply common sense. (https://veganhealth.org/ has evidence-based info.)).
2. I told you on your other thread you'd be in good hands, asking questions of the folks on this thread, right?
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This may be why leaning out went well but near the end I could no longer build at the same time. Thanks for the resources.2
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richiechowns wrote: »So more protein as a vegan.
Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM
Admittedly an extreme non-expert on recomp, I'm nonetheless in to say two things:
1. Speaking as a long term vegetarian: Yes, more protein as a vegan (or vegetarian). Also, assess what fraction of your protein is coming from relatively more essential amino acid (EAA) complete sources (can it be improved?), and vary your incomplete sources to get varied amino acid profiles. (You don't need to make a detailed ongoing research study of this, or compulsively complement amino acid profiles, just give it a little thought and apply common sense. (https://veganhealth.org/ has evidence-based info.)).
2. I told you on your other thread you'd be in good hands, asking questions of the folks on this thread, right?
Thanks Ann, appreciate you directing me here, it's been very useful.2 -
So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts
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richiechowns wrote: »So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts
You are pretty lean as it is. IMO, gaining muscle is where you would see your biggest body improvements which would happen some more resistance training.2 -
richiechowns wrote: »So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts
What are you hoping for if you lose a few pounds more? You are under muscled in my opinion. Ur in a good place to bulk as long as you can do a decent resistance training programme. If that’s not an option for you atm then I wouldn’t lose more.4 -
cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »richiechowns wrote: »So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts
What are you hoping for if you lose a few pounds more? You are under muscled in my opinion. Ur in a good place to bulk as long as you can do a decent resistance training programme. If that’s not an option for you atm then I wouldn’t lose more.
I'm not trying to lose more but get stronger, not necessarily size. I've been doing marathons for years, so this is the runners physique without the strength training element.
My goal is to be stronger, if I gain through strengthening existing muscles then I've achieved my goal.1 -
I'm finding my way around the forums, so maybe I'm not in the right place. I'm not hoping to make massive gains but stay fairly lean and build strength.
For example, Andy Speers or Chris Hearia, not big guys but lean and fairly strong. I can barely do 2 pull ups at the moment, hence body weight work in lock down post T25, maybe P90x3 when I can do a few more pull ups, which I'm working on
1
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