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Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat

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  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    mmapags wrote: »
    Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.

    My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.

    When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?

    I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?

    That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.

    The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.

    Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.

    It's .73g - 1g per lb or 1.7-2.2g/kg. You need closer to 120-150g of protein. Although, based on the information I have seen from Eric Helms, Brad Schoendfeld, an argument can be made to be at the top end or higher while you are trying to build muscle.


    ETA: It should be noted that those protein numbers are based on animal proteins which are higher quality due to higher levels of L-Luecine. If anyone is plant based, they should be consuming higher amounts.
    edited May 20
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    DrTeeeevil wrote: »
    Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.

    https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/

    I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion! :)

    Seems if you search Google and look at healthline.com for example it is shown as 1g per lb or 2.2g per kg.

    Which source is correct info I wonder...

    The correct answer comes from Dr. Stuart Phillips and Dr. Brad Schoenfeld. They are, respectively, the # 1 and # 2 protein metabolism researchers in the world.
  • richiechownsrichiechowns Member Posts: 153 Member Member Posts: 153 Member
    So more protein as a vegan.

    Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM
  • KHMcGKHMcG Member Posts: 791 Member Member Posts: 791 Member
    My math

    CW = 169 lbs
    C LMM = 155 lbs lean muscle mass at last caliper test. (I know many don't believe I'm at 9% BF but oh well that's what I measure.)
    155 lbs = 70 kg lean muscle mass

    @0.8g/kg = 0.8*70=56g
    @1.2/kg = 1.2*70=84g
    @1.4/kg = 1.4*70=100g

    So I've been naturally eating 84g a day and not gaining or losing.

    I'm going to increase to 100g a day and see what can happen. For me this means a cup of Greek yogurt every evening. I don't even need to do protein powder to get there.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    So more protein as a vegan.

    Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM

    A good goal (as a range) would be 117-150g. It doesn't always have to be perfect. But like @haybales stated, the resistance training aspect is going to be key. You need a good resistance based stimulus to drive growth. HIIT and cardio isn't going to fully cut it.


    And if you are trying to squeeze out all the gains, you should consume around 30g of high quality protein 3-4x a day.
    edited May 20
  • mmapagsmmapags Member Posts: 8,961 Member Member Posts: 8,961 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.

    My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.

    When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?

    I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?

    That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.

    The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.

    Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.

    121g based on pounds.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    KHMcG wrote: »
    My math

    CW = 169 lbs
    C LMM = 155 lbs lean muscle mass at last caliper test. (I know many don't believe I'm at 9% BF but oh well that's what I measure.)
    155 lbs = 70 kg lean muscle mass

    @0.8g/kg = 0.8*70=56g
    @1.2/kg = 1.2*70=84g
    @1.4/kg = 1.4*70=100g

    So I've been naturally eating 84g a day and not gaining or losing.

    I'm going to increase to 100g a day and see what can happen. For me this means a cup of Greek yogurt every evening. I don't even need to do protein powder to get there.

    You are off. It's 1.7-2.2g/kg. You are mixing lbs and kg recommendations.
  • mmapagsmmapags Member Posts: 8,961 Member Member Posts: 8,961 Member
    DrTeeeevil wrote: »
    Great advice! I also found this article useful so posting it here in case it helps others too.

    https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/essential-guide-to-protein/

    I calculated my target range before I read any articles on this topic and my target protein level was soooo high... I was perplexed until I read a bit and realized I neglected to convert my lbs to kg first. Note to self: Don't forget the conversion! :)

    Seems if you search Google and look at healthline.com for example it is shown as 1g per lb or 2.2g per kg.

    Which source is correct info I wonder...

    The numbers I gave you were from Dr. Eric Helms one of the most prominent researchers who has synthesized much of the research on protein in his writing. BTW, he is a super interesting and intelligent guy and is worth reading or listening to his podcasts. Healthline is not a create resource for this type of data IMHO.

    According to Helms .75 grams per lb is the sweet spot. .8 grams gives a little buffer. Beyond that the benefits diminish. Of course if someone has had Dexa scans or Hydrostatic testing and knows their body fat with a reasonable degree of accuracy, 1 grams per lb of lean mass.

    Edited to add: I didn't notice there was another page and psuLemon had added in some good info and additional details.
    edited May 20
  • mmapagsmmapags Member Posts: 8,961 Member Member Posts: 8,961 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    Here's a question I'm not fully understanding and hope others can help.

    My macros are set at 40 carbs and then 30/30 split between protein and fat. At the maintenance level this is 153g of protein a day.

    When I exercise, all the macros increase with the calories as expected, but how important is it to hit the upper protein goal?

    I'm eating loads of tempeh and vegan protein shakes twice a day but its a tough goal to reach and even if not vegan, you only digest or use is it 35g max at one time?

    That protein goal is a little higher than it needs to be. Ideally, 1 gram per lb of lean mass is good. Many don't know their lean mass and use a ballpark of .8 grams per lb of body weight. Beyond that amount, there is a rate of diminishing return.

    The study data on protein absorption is based on research using liquid whey shakes for control purposes. Eating whole food, non liquid protein sources means a much slower transit time and absorption rate. It's really nothing to be concerned about unless you are a body building looking to maximize every element for gains. I practice IF and only eat 2x per day. I get all my protein, about 140 grams, in just those 2 meals and have good muscle mass and growth with weight training. So, don't make yourself crazy with timing. Just get enough protein from mostly whole food sources and your body will figure it out.

    Thanks, so I weigh 152lb or 69kg so I really need 55g of protein then based on using kgs or 121g if it were lbs.

    It's .73g - 1g per lb or 1.7-2.2g/kg. You need closer to 120-150g of protein. Although, based on the information I have seen from Eric Helms, Brad Schoendfeld, an argument can be made to be at the top end or higher while you are trying to build muscle.


    ETA: It should be noted that those protein numbers are based on animal proteins which are higher quality due to higher levels of L-Luecine. If anyone is plant based, they should be consuming higher amounts.

    As a vegan, yes you want to consume more for the reasons psuLemon details above.
  • KHMcGKHMcG Member Posts: 791 Member Member Posts: 791 Member
    q42p1pua86mf.png

    So this article in MFP is wrong?

    Please provide links to support your statements. THX

    I really want to get this straight.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    KHMcG wrote: »
    q42p1pua86mf.png

    So this article in MFP is wrong?

    Please provide links to support your statements. THX

    I really want to get this straight.

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0174-y

    Here is a good study that goes through a variety of situations. If you are maintaining, I would get it around 1.4-1.7g/kg. It gets higher during weight loss and the muscle building.
  • heybalesheybales Member Posts: 18,071 Member Member Posts: 18,071 Member
    Yes that is wrong according to much better sources.
    Which were referenced above.


    Oh - just gotta add.

    LBM is Lean Body Mass - it's everything not fat - water, bones, muscle, organs.

    It's not Lean Muscle Mass. No such thing really. well, except at butcher perhaps getting a lean cut of meat.

    ETA - that chart isn't far off though, just a little low.
    The math they do for you though is rather sad though - where is 0.8 in the chart?
    edited May 20
  • cupcakesandproteinshakescupcakesandproteinshakes Member Posts: 800 Member Member Posts: 800 Member
    KHMcG wrote: »
    q42p1pua86mf.png

    So this article in MFP is wrong?

    Please provide links to support your statements. THX

    I really want to get this straight.

    Hey

    Your current protein intake is low compared with what most lifters would regard as optimal. Eric helms book on nutrition is worth a read if you want some solid reliable info and advice.
  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Member, Premium Posts: 16,810 Member Member, Premium Posts: 16,810 Member
    So more protein as a vegan.

    Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM

    Admittedly an extreme non-expert on recomp, I'm nonetheless in to say two things:

    1. Speaking as a long term vegetarian: Yes, more protein as a vegan (or vegetarian). Also, assess what fraction of your protein is coming from relatively more essential amino acid (EAA) complete sources (can it be improved?), and vary your incomplete sources to get varied amino acid profiles. (You don't need to make a detailed ongoing research study of this, or compulsively complement amino acid profiles, just give it a little thought and apply common sense. (https://veganhealth.org/ has evidence-based info.)).

    2. I told you on your other thread you'd be in good hands, asking questions of the folks on this thread, right? ;)
  • KHMcGKHMcG Member Posts: 791 Member Member Posts: 791 Member
    This may be why leaning out went well but near the end I could no longer build at the same time. Thanks for the resources.
  • richiechownsrichiechowns Member Posts: 153 Member Member Posts: 153 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    So more protein as a vegan.

    Also I'm 69kg and about 17%BF I suspect, so that'd be 57kg lean and so 126g of protein at 2.2 x LBM

    Admittedly an extreme non-expert on recomp, I'm nonetheless in to say two things:

    1. Speaking as a long term vegetarian: Yes, more protein as a vegan (or vegetarian). Also, assess what fraction of your protein is coming from relatively more essential amino acid (EAA) complete sources (can it be improved?), and vary your incomplete sources to get varied amino acid profiles. (You don't need to make a detailed ongoing research study of this, or compulsively complement amino acid profiles, just give it a little thought and apply common sense. (https://veganhealth.org/ has evidence-based info.)).

    2. I told you on your other thread you'd be in good hands, asking questions of the folks on this thread, right? ;)

    Thanks Ann, appreciate you directing me here, it's been very useful.
  • richiechownsrichiechowns Member Posts: 153 Member Member Posts: 153 Member
    So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts hjl9wc96flpf.jpg
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,818 MFP Moderator
    So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts hjl9wc96flpf.jpg

    You are pretty lean as it is. IMO, gaining muscle is where you would see your biggest body improvements which would happen some more resistance training.
    edited May 21
  • cupcakesandproteinshakescupcakesandproteinshakes Member Posts: 800 Member Member Posts: 800 Member
    So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts hjl9wc96flpf.jpg

    What are you hoping for if you lose a few pounds more? You are under muscled in my opinion. Ur in a good place to bulk as long as you can do a decent resistance training programme. If that’s not an option for you atm then I wouldn’t lose more.
  • richiechownsrichiechowns Member Posts: 153 Member Member Posts: 153 Member
    So thought I'd try a photo to gauge thoughts hjl9wc96flpf.jpg

    What are you hoping for if you lose a few pounds more? You are under muscled in my opinion. Ur in a good place to bulk as long as you can do a decent resistance training programme. If that’s not an option for you atm then I wouldn’t lose more.

    I'm not trying to lose more but get stronger, not necessarily size. I've been doing marathons for years, so this is the runners physique without the strength training element.

    My goal is to be stronger, if I gain through strengthening existing muscles then I've achieved my goal.
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