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COVID19 - To Vaccinate or To Not Vaccinate

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  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 961 Member Member Posts: 961 Member
    LB30 wrote: »
    I was born prior to there being a Chickenpox vaccine. I was exposed to them repeatedly as a child in elementary school, and even into Jr. High. I never got it. I never thought much about it after that. Flash forward to my 23rd birthday, the one I spent at home very, very ill with chickenpox and a horrible respiratory-possible pneumonia/bronchitis- infection. (I don't know for sure on the pneumonia/bronchitis, but I had pneumonia when I was 12 and this infection had much worse symptoms, so who knows.) The doctor wouldn't see me because he had a large number of elderly patients, so I had to tough it out and "monitor my symptoms" - wouldn't even give me a prescription for Zovirax. To him, it was just a run of the mill "you'll survive" recoverable illness. And yes, I did survive, but it was awful and frightening. I worked in a hospital at that time and was well aware of a 19yr old patient who, 3 months earlier, had passed away from complications of pneumonia and chickenpox. To say I lived in absolute fear for those 2 weeks I was sick would be a great understatement. The vaccine had been around for about 2 years when I got sick, but I didn't think I needed at that. I didn't work with patients and I was never around kids. I was a perfectly healthy young adult. Had I known, I would have definitely gotten that vaccine.
    As soon as I am eligible to get the Covid vaccine, I will be there will bells on. I would take it right now if they would let me.

    My cousin died of chicken pox when I was a kid. We all had it, 6 cousins. It's rare, but it does happen. (This was before the vaccine was available.) I was a nervous wreck when my 3 kids got it.
    edited March 19
  • NorthCascadesNorthCascades Member Posts: 10,668 Member Member Posts: 10,668 Member
    Vaccines can't stop the spread until they reach a herd immunity level...at this point my state is only about 11% vaccinated, it's not enough to stop the spread...not even enough to considerably slow it...but as the percentage of population vaccinated increases, it will slow and then stop the spread of covid, it's just going to take a while getting to that point.

    We're already seeing things get better - less spread.

    At some point, long before we reach 80% innoculated for herd immunity, it will be getting rarer, and easier to track. If we're smart about contact tracing we'll be able to switch from mass vaccination to ring vaccination. We don't actually have to get to 80%.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 7,578 Member Member Posts: 7,578 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    We are now vaccinating 80+ years, and moving to 75+ shortly. Those people are the most likely to get serious illness, yet the younger people are the most likely to spread it. So who should we vaccinate first? Now that long term care homes are done I am thinking it should be younger people who have to go out to work.

    In my state (and I think this is typical for the US generally), it was: (1) healthcare workers, (2) over 65 (initially over 75) and front facing essential workers (i.e., people who have to work with the public in some way, can't stay home), (3) people with various pre-existing conditions that are risk factors, and (4) people who have essential jobs, but not front facing (I am in this group, it's 1c here).

    I'm okay with this order.
  • NorthCascadesNorthCascades Member Posts: 10,668 Member Member Posts: 10,668 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔
  • MidlifeCrisisFitnessMidlifeCrisisFitness Member Posts: 1,115 Member Member Posts: 1,115 Member
    I have to wonder what the concern is for KHMcG.

    He is 50ish years old and according to his profile his weight and cholesterol numbers were concerning to him and that's when he decided to do something about it and lose the the weight. He mentions that he has four children and would like to live to see his grandchildren.

    With all that said, why would you not want to be vaccinated? Surely your children would like to see their parents live a few more years? If there's a way out, why on earth would you not take it?


    Sure, cancer, heart disease, and diseases-yet-to-be-named (not to mention all the ones we do name) may still get ya, but


    There is a way out.

    Why.... I can't even....

    Hey I'm open for conversation. Let's just not get into sweeping statements of what is true and not true. There is insufficient evidence to make these claims.

    I would like to be around for my family. I cannot stop or prevent the enevitable and have accepted death will come. I am all for prevention when the risks are known and the result is reasonably proven. I did a little reading this afternoon. Lots of conflicting information. Experts are warning against sweeping statements.

    Some of the most alarming expert advice is that even once vaccination is at a very high rate we will still be masking. For me I am not interested in living 20 to 40 years like this.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 961 Member Member Posts: 961 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔

    But with the dengue vaccine they are not actually getting it from the vaccine, it is basically priming their immune system so a subsequent infection is more serious, as is what happens when you contract dengue a second time. So basically someone could get the vaccine today, and two years from now if they get dengue for the first time a more severe case could be triggered because they have had the vaccine in the past.

    So it doesn't really matter if it is a live vaccine, it is the immune response it triggers. Since there are different variants of dengue, I wondered if the same thing might happen if someone who was immunized for covid contracted a different variant. Keep in mind this is just me idly wondering, I don't know enough about viruses to even speculate if the same thing could happen.
  • cmriversidecmriverside Member Posts: 31,834 Member Member Posts: 31,834 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔

    But with the dengue vaccine they are not actually getting it from the vaccine, it is basically priming their immune system so a subsequent infection is more serious, as is what happens when you contract dengue a second time. So basically someone could get the vaccine today, and two years from now if they get dengue for the first time a more severe case could be triggered because they have had the vaccine in the past.

    So it doesn't really matter if it is a live vaccine, it is the immune response it triggers. Since there are different variants of dengue, I wondered if the same thing might happen if someone who was immunized for covid contracted a different variant. Keep in mind this is just me idly wondering, I don't know enough about viruses to even speculate if the same thing could happen.

    Do you understand the difference between a weakened live virus vaccine like Dengvaxia and the mRNA vaccine that is being used for Covid? I don't think you do.

  • DnarulesDnarules Member Posts: 2,071 Member Member Posts: 2,071 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔

    The US stopped using the oral polio vaccine for this reason. We now use the inactivated polio vaccine. But I know the oral vaccine is still used in other countries.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 961 Member Member Posts: 961 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔

    But with the dengue vaccine they are not actually getting it from the vaccine, it is basically priming their immune system so a subsequent infection is more serious, as is what happens when you contract dengue a second time. So basically someone could get the vaccine today, and two years from now if they get dengue for the first time a more severe case could be triggered because they have had the vaccine in the past.

    So it doesn't really matter if it is a live vaccine, it is the immune response it triggers. Since there are different variants of dengue, I wondered if the same thing might happen if someone who was immunized for covid contracted a different variant. Keep in mind this is just me idly wondering, I don't know enough about viruses to even speculate if the same thing could happen.

    Do you understand the difference between a weakened live virus vaccine like Dengvaxia and the mRNA vaccine that is being used for Covid? I don't think you do.

    I do! But I don't think the issue is the type of vaccine used, but rather the immune response that is being triggered, and remains indefinitely. It is somewhat unique to dengue I believe in that a subsequent infection often triggers a more severe illness, even if it happens years later. So the vaccine triggers the same immune status in someone who has never had dengue, so a first infection can be more severe.

    So getting the vaccine for dengue if you have never had it will give you basically the same risk factors for having a severe case the next time, as if you had had it before. Where if you have had it before, the vaccine helps mitigate the severity. That is why they no longer recommend children who have never had dengue to get the vaccine.

    From the WHO website I quoted upthread:

    "Of note, it is not the vaccine itself that causes excess cases, but rather that the vaccine induces an immune status that increases the risk that subsequent infections are more pronounced."

    Again I am not saying that this will happen with the covid vaccine. Maybe it is impossible I don't know.
    edited March 19
  • rheddmobilerheddmobile Member Posts: 6,544 Member Member Posts: 6,544 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    nooshi713 wrote: »
    There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.

    It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.

    Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.

    The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.

    Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.

    I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
    I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
    I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
    Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)

    People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.

    When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔

    But with the dengue vaccine they are not actually getting it from the vaccine, it is basically priming their immune system so a subsequent infection is more serious, as is what happens when you contract dengue a second time. So basically someone could get the vaccine today, and two years from now if they get dengue for the first time a more severe case could be triggered because they have had the vaccine in the past.

    So it doesn't really matter if it is a live vaccine, it is the immune response it triggers. Since there are different variants of dengue, I wondered if the same thing might happen if someone who was immunized for covid contracted a different variant. Keep in mind this is just me idly wondering, I don't know enough about viruses to even speculate if the same thing could happen.

    The first thing to remember about viruses like dengue, in which a prior infection increases the severity if you are later infected by a variant, is that this will happen whether you get the vaccine or the disease itself. So then the question with this sort of vaccine becomes, is getting sick from the currently circulating variants more of a risk than getting the vaccine and getting another variant later?

    Most people don’t live in a part of the world with dengue. In places where it occurs, it’s not a constant killer, it has outbreaks. Someone would only get vaccinated if there was a good chance of them dying from a particular variant covered by the vaccine (which is formulated to protect from multiple variants), and little chance of encountering another variant. The doctors and drug manufacturers know this happens, they don’t just throw a random vaccine at everyone in hopes that everyone will get infected by a different variant and die. Doctors don’t like killing patients and drug manufacturers know that it’s bad for their reputations!

    And, in fact, this is exactly what the situation in the Philippines shows. As soon as they figured out that the vaccine was increasing the severity of infection with other variants, they STOPPED recommending the vaccine to children who weren’t at risk from a specific variant.

    The situation with Covid is different because Covid is not just an epidemic but a PANdemic which means it’s almost everywhere. It kills a large number of people in certain groups, such as the middle-aged and elderly, the obese, which is more than a third of American adults, and people with diabetes, which is about 1 in 8. It’s an actual emergency, which is why a vaccine not fully approved has been approved for EMERGENCY use.
    edited March 19
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