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COVID19 - To Vaccinate or To Not Vaccinate
Replies
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I'm going to take it... If not for myself, but for the greater good. While my faith in government, and big nameless corporations may lack at times. I generally trust, individual Scientist, Researchers and generally good people trying to make a positive difference for the community at large.10
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rheddmobile wrote: »
I couldn’t disagree more. Responsible social media platforms are blocking and banning this sort of information just to stop it from spreading like wildfire.healthyhannah__ wrote: »I am a nurse and received the vaccine last week.
To say I was not hesitant would be a lie. Many nurses in my department has similar concerns. Luckily we were assured that all was well, but not everyone has access to medical journals like we do.
Most people just have Google, which we all know can be dangerous. People forget how powerful online articles and word-of-mouth can be. I have had several women recently inquire about the vaccine in regards to fertility. Many have declined it for now. This is an ongoing issue.
While most claims continue to be debunked, you really cannot blame young people for thinking twice.
This is coming from someone who fully supports the Covid-19 vaccine.
I believe @kermit124 was attempting to address claims that they heard, which is a quality I see in many patients. I feel like they are being brought down for having these concerns, which is equally ineffective.
The rumors with Gardasil are still ongoing for their demographic. Once the word got out that there "could be a link between the HPV vaccine and fertility" it spread like wildfire. I believe @kermit124 was laying out those articles to show which information their generation has been receiving. I have seen one of those articles shared on Instagram recently. I hate to say it, but it is true. They are really being told that they might not be able to have children. I don't think reprimanding them for their concerns is productive, but I also am used to hearing this.
Allow room for this conversation to happen since many of you may be hearing similar thoughts from your young loved ones looking to conceive.
It's a tough time in this world of over-information to sift out fact and fiction. Let's work together with grace!!!
Without getting into language that would violate the site rules, I don’t know what is wrong with people, but it’s clear from the past several years that polite conversation isn’t helping, and in fact seems to facilitate the spread of the poison. People who have deliberately detached themselves from scientific authority and attached themselves to crazy rumor-mongering and conspiracy theories are not just theoretically dangerous, they are actually dangerous.
I also find someone saying they “are just a young person thinking about starting a family who wants input” to be ingenuous. A person of normal intelligence, functioning normally, who really felt that way would be asking a doctor about her fertility, not trying to spread rumors online.
My husband had this sort of conversation with his father recently and had to tell him that if he didn’t stop being ridiculous (he is in his 80s, a lung cancer survivor with very little lung left, and would almost certainly die if he got Covid) and get the vaccine, he was not going to visit him. I have another friend who had to tell her mother - who is an RN and currently a nurse for terminally ill children! - that if she didn’t lay off the QAnon and get the vaccine, she was certainly not welcome to travel out of state to see her grandchildren.
The situation is scary, and pretending that these unfounded, nonsensical “concerns” are based in normal thinking or are a form of normal behavior is not something I’m going to do. The people doing it need to be aware that it’s dangerous and they are hurting people, just like someone who goes out drunk driving every day needs to be stopped.
I agree. This type of talk isn’t harmless. It does harm because many unsuspecting people hear the fake information, run with it, and then you have a significant portion of the population refusing to get vaccinated. I honestly feel vaccinations should be mandatory for everyone. They are an issue of public safety and this type of reasoning is the same as why we have seatbelt laws, rules against drinking and driving, and bans on public cigarette smoking in some places.6 -
There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.2 -
RetiredAndLovingIt wrote: »I am curious, how do you convince someone who refuses to get the vaccine, because they believe “it really isn’t a vaccine”? Not me, I am fully vaccinated.
You don't...if people have gone down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, they're really the only one's who can get themselves back...they aren't worth anyone's time trying to convince.4 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. So, If you're afraid then vaccinate. Just don't impose your fear on me. If I get sick I'll stay home.
This is a pretty ignorant comment...roughly 70% of the population needs to be vaccinated to achieve any kind of herd immunity, and we're obviously not there yet. Making a statement as you did is premature AF.
My state has roughly 50% of the population with at least one dose and over 20% fully vaccinated...we are one or two in the US in regards to vaccine distribution...and it has most definitely made a difference in spread.
Getting vaccinated also has nothing to do with fear...yet again a completely asinine and ignorant statement.17 -
I caught Covid in November and found out I was pregnant shortly afterwards. I did a lot of research on this vaccine and decided to get it in January/February. Several of my pregnant colleagues did as well. My OB suggested that since I am a high risk person ( work in the ER ) that the benefits outweigh the risks. There have been studies showing that if a pregnant woman catches Covid, her risk of hospitalization is 5x that of another person of the same age who is not pregnant.
I really tried to understand the science of the new vaccine and it just made sense. I would have hated to catch Covid a second time and end up hospitalized late in pregnancy. Other vaccines haven’t been shown to do any harm to the fetus and in fact can confer immunity to the baby, so there doesn’t seem to be any rational reason to forgo them.13 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. So, If you're afraid then vaccinate. Just don't impose your fear on me. If I get sick I'll stay home.
@KHMcG
Your statement is untrue.
In the UK we have vaccinated about half the adult population and it has been confirmed the vaccines do massively reduce the spread. The divergence is extremely clear.
Not only do vaccinated people exposed to COVID get far milder symptoms and better outcomes if infected but many simply don't get infected at all.
Do you also realise you could be an asymptomatic carrier and spreader of the virus?11 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. So, If you're afraid then vaccinate. Just don't impose your fear on me. If I get sick I'll stay home.
You can't judge whether or not a vaccine is impacting the spread when such a tiny part of the population has been vaccinated at this time.
The issue is that you can spread COVID before you know you're sick and there are lots of people who aren't staying home even when they are sick.
The whole "If you get sick, it isn't my problem" crowd isn't going to model effective self-isolation when they get ill. These are the same people who will continue to go out even when they've got a fever or a cough and figure that if anyone is worried about COVID, they shouldn't be in public anyway. You KNOW this is true, that's part of the reason why we're in this state. People getting on planes sick, going to work sick, shopping while sick. People sending their sick kids to school, people choosing to have house parties with sick relatives and then acting shocked when Grandma dies.
The whole "I'm not responsible for the diseases I spread, you're responsible for being exposed to me" angle is reprehensible.24 -
There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions
"In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.
Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.
"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote."
It has since been established that children who have never been exposed to dengue should NOT have the vaccine. This was not the recommendation when the vaccine was rolled out in the Philippines - they recommended that all children be vaccinated. The mechanism for the vaccine causing more severe illness I believe is the same as a subsequent infection causing it - "antibody dependent enhancement". Yes the vaccine does seem to work well in those who have been previously exposed.
I take issue with your statement that "there haven't been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm to a significant amount of people". There are thousands of children in the Philippines, who were vaccinated before the recommendations changed, who are now at higher risk if they become infected with dengue, because they have had the vaccine.
I'm not saying anything like this this will happen with the Covid vaccine - just pointing out that there have been vaccine errors made in the past.1 -
The world is full of diseases. More are coming. I refuse to live in fear and I know we cannot control it.2
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The world is full of diseases. More are coming. I refuse to live in fear and I know we cannot control it.
Vaccines are literally a way to help control the spread of disease.
This is like saying you aren't going to buckle your seat belt, moderate your speed, or obey traffic rules because car crashes are coming and they cannot be prevented.
We'll probably never eradicate disease, but we have two powerful categories of tools to help control their impact. The first is prevention of disease -- vaccinations fall into this category (as do things like washing our hands, avoiding contact with people who are known to be sick with a contagious diseases, etc). The second set of tools involve treatment of diseases. Are you telling me that if you had a bacterial infection you'd refuse antibiotics because we can't control disease? That makes about as much sense as refusing to get vaccinated simply because the world is full of disease.20 -
There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions
"In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.
Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.
"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote."
It has since been established that children who have never been exposed to dengue should NOT have the vaccine. This was not the recommendation when the vaccine was rolled out in the Philippines - they recommended that all children be vaccinated. The mechanism for the vaccine causing more severe illness I believe is the same as a subsequent infection causing it - "antibody dependent enhancement". Yes the vaccine does seem to work well in those who have been previously exposed.
I take issue with your statement that "there haven't been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm to a significant amount of people". There are thousands of children in the Philippines, who were vaccinated before the recommendations changed, who are now at higher risk if they become infected with dengue, because they have had the vaccine.
I'm not saying anything like this this will happen with the Covid vaccine - just pointing out that there have been vaccine errors made in the past.
This is not a peer reviewed study. It is an NPR article. It does not have any evidence or prove anything. When I went to the New England Journal of Medicine article that was referenced it mentioned an 80% vaccine efficacy rate and approximately 3% adverse events rate that was nearly identical in the vaccine group and placebo group.
Most people do not know how to interpret the news and information they read unfortunately. Anecdotal cases are not proof and many such situations in the past that have made the news have turned out to be debunked. Even now, there is a lot of fear mongering regarding the European vaccine causing blood clots. People don’t look at the actual evidence though. They hear blood clots and vaccine on the news and assume the vaccine causes blood clots which is ridiculous. A few people having a rare auto immune response to a vaccine does not make the vaccine unsafe.
The rate of blood clots is much higher in patients with actual Covid infection than in people receiving the vaccine. I saw many, many patients over the last year with Covid, who had pulmonary emboli, embolic strokes, and heart attacks. Vaccines data show a 95% reduction in serious complications and hospitalizations so far.
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There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions
"In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.
Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.
"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote."
It has since been established that children who have never been exposed to dengue should NOT have the vaccine. This was not the recommendation when the vaccine was rolled out in the Philippines - they recommended that all children be vaccinated. The mechanism for the vaccine causing more severe illness I believe is the same as a subsequent infection causing it - "antibody dependent enhancement". Yes the vaccine does seem to work well in those who have been previously exposed.
I take issue with your statement that "there haven't been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm to a significant amount of people". There are thousands of children in the Philippines, who were vaccinated before the recommendations changed, who are now at higher risk if they become infected with dengue, because they have had the vaccine.
I'm not saying anything like this this will happen with the Covid vaccine - just pointing out that there have been vaccine errors made in the past.
This is not a peer reviewed study. It is an NPR article. It does not have any evidence or prove anything. When I went to the New England Journal of Medicine article that was referenced it mentioned an 80% vaccine efficacy rate and approximately 3% adverse events rate that was nearly identical in the vaccine group and placebo group.
Most people do not know how to interpret the news and information they read unfortunately. Anecdotal cases are not proof and many such situations in the past that have made the news have turned out to be debunked. Even now, there is a lot of fear mongering regarding the European vaccine causing blood clots. People don’t look at the actual evidence though. They hear blood clots and vaccine on the news and assume the vaccine causes blood clots which is ridiculous. A few people having a rare auto immune response to a vaccine does not make the vaccine unsafe.
The rate of blood clots is much higher in patients with actual Covid infection than in people receiving the vaccine. I saw many, many patients over the last year with Covid, who had pulmonary emboli, embolic strokes, and heart attacks. Vaccines data show a 95% reduction in serious complications and hospitalizations so far.
This actually did happen with the dengue vaccine in the Philippines. But dengue is a very different disease than Covid-19. There are four strains of dengue virus. An immune response to an infection with one strain can put you at risk of serious illness if you are infected with a different strain. It has made development of a dengue vaccine very challenging. But this is not the case with SARS CoV 2.
ETA: Twiv 471 covered this dengue issue. (This week in virology). I actually need to look into updates on this.
Also, I've been vaccinated for Covid
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There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions
"In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.
Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.
"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote."
It has since been established that children who have never been exposed to dengue should NOT have the vaccine. This was not the recommendation when the vaccine was rolled out in the Philippines - they recommended that all children be vaccinated. The mechanism for the vaccine causing more severe illness I believe is the same as a subsequent infection causing it - "antibody dependent enhancement". Yes the vaccine does seem to work well in those who have been previously exposed.
I take issue with your statement that "there haven't been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm to a significant amount of people". There are thousands of children in the Philippines, who were vaccinated before the recommendations changed, who are now at higher risk if they become infected with dengue, because they have had the vaccine.
I'm not saying anything like this this will happen with the Covid vaccine - just pointing out that there have been vaccine errors made in the past.
This is not a peer reviewed study. It is an NPR article. It does not have any evidence or prove anything. When I went to the New England Journal of Medicine article that was referenced it mentioned an 80% vaccine efficacy rate and approximately 3% adverse events rate that was nearly identical in the vaccine group and placebo group.
Most people do not know how to interpret the news and information they read unfortunately. Anecdotal cases are not proof and many such situations in the past that have made the news have turned out to be debunked. Even now, there is a lot of fear mongering regarding the European vaccine causing blood clots. People don’t look at the actual evidence though. They hear blood clots and vaccine on the news and assume the vaccine causes blood clots which is ridiculous. A few people having a rare auto immune response to a vaccine does not make the vaccine unsafe.
The rate of blood clots is much higher in patients with actual Covid infection than in people receiving the vaccine. I saw many, many patients over the last year with Covid, who had pulmonary emboli, embolic strokes, and heart attacks. Vaccines data show a 95% reduction in serious complications and hospitalizations so far.
It's well documented - you can easily find the info. There have been criminal charges filed in the Philippines. There is information about it on the WHO website.
You seem determined not to believe me for some reason. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it being in the medical field tbh.
Edit - from the WHO website:
https://www.who.int/immunization/diseases/dengue/q_and_a_dengue_vaccine_dengvaxia_use/en/
"However, the subset of trial participants who were inferred to be seronegative at time of first vaccination had a significantly higher risk of more severe dengue and hospitalizations from dengue compared to unvaccinated participants, regardless of age at time of vaccination. Beyond an initial protective period during the first two years, the risk was highest in year 3 following the first dose, declined in the following years but persisted over the trial follow up period of about 5 years after the first dose.
How can one explain the excess cases of severe dengue in the vaccinated seronegative population?
The reasons for the excess cases are not fully understood, but a plausible hypothesis is that the vaccine may initiate a first immune response to dengue in seronegative persons (e.g. persons without a prior dengue infection) that predisposes them to a higher risk of severe disease. That is, the vaccine acts as a “primary-like” infection and a subsequent infection with the first wild type dengue virus is then a “secondary-like” clinically more severe infection. This hypothesis is illustrated in the Figure below. However, other hypotheses are possible and, at this stage, there is no definitive explanation. Of note, it is not the vaccine itself that causes excess cases, but rather that the vaccine induces an immune status that increases the risk that subsequent infections are more pronounced."
Fronm the New Enlgand Journal of Medicine:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1800820CONCLUSIONS
"CYD-TDV protected against severe VCD and hospitalization for VCD for 5 years in persons who had exposure to dengue before vaccination, and there was evidence of a higher risk of these outcomes in vaccinated persons who had not been exposed to dengue. (Funded by Sanofi Pasteur; ClinicalTrials.gov numbers, NCT00842530. opens in new tab, NCT01983553. opens in new tab, NCT01373281. opens in new tab, and NCT01374516. opens in new tab.)"
0 -
There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
I’m not an expert on the dengue vaccine but from what I know it is a live vaccine. The Covid vaccine is not. What you mentioned about becoming more sick the second time around would happen if the person caught dengue virus a second time or received a vaccine if that persons immune system is going to react that way. I did read there was a 75% reduction in infection in those previously exposed. If someone lives in a region where dengue is common, it still seems the benefits outweigh the risks. I couldn’t find a study explaining any deaths as a result of the vaccine.
There are rare people who have Guillan-Barre syndrome and they may attribute this to getting a vaccine but there have been unvaccinated people who have this condition as well as a result of a preceding viral infection. So it is unfair to blame a vaccine. This is more a result of someone being unlucky in the way their immune system works. Most people don’t realize that in many cases, we feel sick as a result of our immune response to a pathogen more so than the effects of the pathogen itself.
Vaccinations have been around for years. There haven’t been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm in a significant amount of people. The benefits greatly outweigh the risks in every case of the common vaccines we have. That’s why I don’t understand the fear.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions
"In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.
Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.
"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote."
It has since been established that children who have never been exposed to dengue should NOT have the vaccine. This was not the recommendation when the vaccine was rolled out in the Philippines - they recommended that all children be vaccinated. The mechanism for the vaccine causing more severe illness I believe is the same as a subsequent infection causing it - "antibody dependent enhancement". Yes the vaccine does seem to work well in those who have been previously exposed.
I take issue with your statement that "there haven't been any vaccines that have been shown to do harm to a significant amount of people". There are thousands of children in the Philippines, who were vaccinated before the recommendations changed, who are now at higher risk if they become infected with dengue, because they have had the vaccine.
I'm not saying anything like this this will happen with the Covid vaccine - just pointing out that there have been vaccine errors made in the past.
This is not a peer reviewed study. It is an NPR article. It does not have any evidence or prove anything. When I went to the New England Journal of Medicine article that was referenced it mentioned an 80% vaccine efficacy rate and approximately 3% adverse events rate that was nearly identical in the vaccine group and placebo group.
Most people do not know how to interpret the news and information they read unfortunately. Anecdotal cases are not proof and many such situations in the past that have made the news have turned out to be debunked. Even now, there is a lot of fear mongering regarding the European vaccine causing blood clots. People don’t look at the actual evidence though. They hear blood clots and vaccine on the news and assume the vaccine causes blood clots which is ridiculous. A few people having a rare auto immune response to a vaccine does not make the vaccine unsafe.
The rate of blood clots is much higher in patients with actual Covid infection than in people receiving the vaccine. I saw many, many patients over the last year with Covid, who had pulmonary emboli, embolic strokes, and heart attacks. Vaccines data show a 95% reduction in serious complications and hospitalizations so far.
This actually did happen with the dengue vaccine in the Philippines. But dengue is a very different disease than Covid-19. There are four strains of dengue virus. An immune response to an infection with one strain can put you at risk of serious illness if you are infected with a different strain. It has made development of a dengue vaccine very challenging. But this is not the case with SARS CoV 2.
ETA: Twiv 471 covered this dengue issue. (This week in virology). I actually need to look into updates on this.
Also, I've been vaccinated for Covid.
Thank you! I feel like I am banging my head on the wall - lol.
I am aware that Covid is a different virus altogether, I was originally responding to the blanket claim that no vaccine has ever hurt anyone. FWIW I have also been vaccinated for Covid (1st dose).1 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. So, If you're afraid then vaccinate. Just don't impose your fear on me. If I get sick I'll stay home.
The whole "if you're afraid" line is so silly and overused at this point. Adults calling other adults the equivalent of a chicken like we used to do as 10-year olds is embarrassing. And honestly, it's not a particularly compelling argument once you are past elementary school. Taking care not to infect others during a pandemic that has killed over 2 million people worldwide is not living in fear. It is having enough intelligence and education to understand basic science and disease transmission.26 -
The world is full of diseases. More are coming. I refuse to live in fear and I know we cannot control it.
You do realize that the fact you don't have to worry about small pox, polio, and several other possibly fatal diseases is because of vaccinations, right?
Do you wear a seatbelt? Do you look both ways before crossing the street? Do you have a lock on your front door? Is that "living in fear"?16 -
I was born prior to there being a Chickenpox vaccine. I was exposed to them repeatedly as a child in elementary school, and even into Jr. High. I never got it. I never thought much about it after that. Flash forward to my 23rd birthday, the one I spent at home very, very ill with chickenpox and a horrible respiratory-possible pneumonia/bronchitis- infection. (I don't know for sure on the pneumonia/bronchitis, but I had pneumonia when I was 12 and this infection had much worse symptoms, so who knows.) The doctor wouldn't see me because he had a large number of elderly patients, so I had to tough it out and "monitor my symptoms" - wouldn't even give me a prescription for Zovirax. To him, it was just a run of the mill "you'll survive" recoverable illness. And yes, I did survive, but it was awful and frightening. I worked in a hospital at that time and was well aware of a 19yr old patient who, 3 months earlier, had passed away from complications of pneumonia and chickenpox. To say I lived in absolute fear for those 2 weeks I was sick would be a great understatement. The vaccine had been around for about 2 years when I got sick, but I didn't think I needed at that. I didn't work with patients and I was never around kids. I was a perfectly healthy young adult. Had I known, I would have definitely gotten that vaccine.
As soon as I am eligible to get the Covid vaccine, I will be there will bells on. I would take it right now if they would let me.15 -
SummerSkier wrote: »I think there are multiple camps on this issue. You have the pro vaccination group, the I am not going to get it because.. group, and the anti vaccination because it will kill you group. I agree with Kimny, I am also surprised that the US #s have dropped so rapidly, and I don't think it is possible that it is attributable to the vaccine but if a single dose gives some immunity or less severe cases perhaps it is? We did start this process in Dec.
The thing is, our case numbers dropped from the holiday spike, but they are still high. They just seem low because of what we just got through. We're at the levels we were last summer now, and still higher than we were in the fall!6 -
I have to wonder what the concern is for KHMcG.
He is 50ish years old and according to his profile his weight and cholesterol numbers were concerning to him and that's when he decided to do something about it and lose the the weight. He mentions that he has four children and would like to live to see his grandchildren.
With all that said, why would you not want to be vaccinated? Surely your children would like to see their parents live a few more years? If there's a way out, why on earth would you not take it?
Sure, cancer, heart disease, and diseases-yet-to-be-named (not to mention all the ones we do name) may still get ya, but
There is a way out.
Why.... I can't even....15 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. <snip>
Actually, cases in nursing homes in the US have plummeted since vaccinations became available to them, and restrictions on visitors have been loosened.
Considering less than a quarter of the US is vaccinated so far, and those eligible for the shot in most areas are people who were most likely staying home anyway, anyone who understands how vaccinations work wouldn't be expecting national case numbers over all to have dropped drastically yet.
a good chart to drive this fact home
15 -
I was born prior to there being a Chickenpox vaccine. I was exposed to them repeatedly as a child in elementary school, and even into Jr. High. I never got it. I never thought much about it after that. Flash forward to my 23rd birthday, the one I spent at home very, very ill with chickenpox and a horrible respiratory-possible pneumonia/bronchitis- infection. (I don't know for sure on the pneumonia/bronchitis, but I had pneumonia when I was 12 and this infection had much worse symptoms, so who knows.) The doctor wouldn't see me because he had a large number of elderly patients, so I had to tough it out and "monitor my symptoms" - wouldn't even give me a prescription for Zovirax. To him, it was just a run of the mill "you'll survive" recoverable illness. And yes, I did survive, but it was awful and frightening. I worked in a hospital at that time and was well aware of a 19yr old patient who, 3 months earlier, had passed away from complications of pneumonia and chickenpox. To say I lived in absolute fear for those 2 weeks I was sick would be a great understatement. The vaccine had been around for about 2 years when I got sick, but I didn't think I needed at that. I didn't work with patients and I was never around kids. I was a perfectly healthy young adult. Had I known, I would have definitely gotten that vaccine.
As soon as I am eligible to get the Covid vaccine, I will be there will bells on. I would take it right now if they would let me.
My cousin died of chicken pox when I was a kid. We all had it, 6 cousins. It's rare, but it does happen. (This was before the vaccine was available.) I was a nervous wreck when my 3 kids got it.3 -
tcunbeliever wrote: »Vaccines can't stop the spread until they reach a herd immunity level...at this point my state is only about 11% vaccinated, it's not enough to stop the spread...not even enough to considerably slow it...but as the percentage of population vaccinated increases, it will slow and then stop the spread of covid, it's just going to take a while getting to that point.
We're already seeing things get better - less spread.
At some point, long before we reach 80% innoculated for herd immunity, it will be getting rarer, and easier to track. If we're smart about contact tracing we'll be able to switch from mass vaccination to ring vaccination. We don't actually have to get to 80%.4 -
We are now vaccinating 80+ years, and moving to 75+ shortly. Those people are the most likely to get serious illness, yet the younger people are the most likely to spread it. So who should we vaccinate first? Now that long term care homes are done I am thinking it should be younger people who have to go out to work.
In my state (and I think this is typical for the US generally), it was: (1) healthcare workers, (2) over 65 (initially over 75) and front facing essential workers (i.e., people who have to work with the public in some way, can't stay home), (3) people with various pre-existing conditions that are risk factors, and (4) people who have essential jobs, but not front facing (I am in this group, it's 1c here).
I'm okay with this order.0 -
There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.
When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔2 -
The world is full of diseases. More are coming. I refuse to live in fear and I know we cannot control it.
Since when is getting vaccinated "living in fear"? Did you get vaccinated for polio, measles, etc.? (I won't ask about smallpox since we actually typically don't bc vaccines were so effective.)
In that most who refuse to vaccinate seem to be scared of the vaccine, I think you have the fear issue backwards.12 -
cmriverside wrote: »I have to wonder what the concern is for KHMcG.
He is 50ish years old and according to his profile his weight and cholesterol numbers were concerning to him and that's when he decided to do something about it and lose the the weight. He mentions that he has four children and would like to live to see his grandchildren.
With all that said, why would you not want to be vaccinated? Surely your children would like to see their parents live a few more years? If there's a way out, why on earth would you not take it?
Sure, cancer, heart disease, and diseases-yet-to-be-named (not to mention all the ones we do name) may still get ya, but
There is a way out.
Why.... I can't even....
Hey I'm open for conversation. Let's just not get into sweeping statements of what is true and not true. There is insufficient evidence to make these claims.
I would like to be around for my family. I cannot stop or prevent the enevitable and have accepted death will come. I am all for prevention when the risks are known and the result is reasonably proven. I did a little reading this afternoon. Lots of conflicting information. Experts are warning against sweeping statements.
Some of the most alarming expert advice is that even once vaccination is at a very high rate we will still be masking. For me I am not interested in living 20 to 40 years like this.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »There is no reliable evidence based study that links Gardasil to infertility just like there is no proof that other vaccines cause autism.
It is the same with the Covid vaccine. When you actually understand the physiology of the human body and vaccines, it makes complete sense.
Vaccines do not harm anyone. All they do is stimulate an immune response which happens naturally anyway when we are exposed to viruses and bacteria in the environment.
The Covid vaccine is a code for the spike protein of Covid. It is a piece of RNA, genetic material. You have a greater chance of being harmed through the body’s immune response to the actual virus than you do through the vaccine, which isn’t even a complete virus.
Naturally people want to find something to blame their infertility or child’s birth defects on. But, it is foolish and unfair to blame vaccines because that logic just isn’t sound.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think it is universally true. A new Dengue vaccine did contribute the deaths of children in the Philippines not that long ago. I think dengue is kind of a unique illness where instead of becoming immune after the illness, you actually get sicker the second time you get it. So I believe the vaccine triggered more severe illness if those who had never been previously exposed got sick, and some children did die.
I actually thought about that when I heard that this vaccine was being kind of fast tracked - did they test it in people who had previously been exposed? Did they test what happened if you got Covid after receiving it?
I still wonder what effect the vaccine might have if you get exposed to a different variant. I know with dengue there is something called "antibody-dependent enhancement" where previous exposure actually makes the symptoms worse.
Since I already got my first shot I am hoping that Covid doesn't evolve that way as well. (Although I am not a virologist so maybe the coronavirus behaves totatly differently than the dengue virus - it is the only one I have heard of that does that.)
People get polio from the polio vaccine. It's rare, but it happens. That's completely impossible with the covid vaccines because they don't use a disabled virus they use the blueprint for the spike on the outside and nothing else.
When covid hit, the world was about a year away from complete eradication of polio. Then it got moved down on the priority list. 😔
But with the dengue vaccine they are not actually getting it from the vaccine, it is basically priming their immune system so a subsequent infection is more serious, as is what happens when you contract dengue a second time. So basically someone could get the vaccine today, and two years from now if they get dengue for the first time a more severe case could be triggered because they have had the vaccine in the past.
So it doesn't really matter if it is a live vaccine, it is the immune response it triggers. Since there are different variants of dengue, I wondered if the same thing might happen if someone who was immunized for covid contracted a different variant. Keep in mind this is just me idly wondering, I don't know enough about viruses to even speculate if the same thing could happen.0
This discussion has been closed.
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