Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
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Well, looks like this thread kind of blew up. I have tried eating various things and checking sugars 2 hours later, then presenting findings to the endocrinologist. I'm super carb sensitive even if those carbs are whole grains, high fiber veg, etc. So I eat a lot of nonstarchy vegetables, fish, lean meat and poultry, lowfat dairy, some nuts, a small amount of berries or a single clementine (or for vitamin C I put lemon juice in things like home made salad dressing.)
Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas, no sense in repeating all that again. In no way am I going to argue over what anyone who isn't me should be eating.
I didn't say it earlier, but I'm glad you were able to find a way of eating that helps. I remembered this thread and I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to keep getting that kind of unhelpful guidance from your doctor.
I know some diabetics who have had fantastic results from a plant-based diet, but it's ridiculous to assume that everyone is going to respond the same way.7 -
The GP sounds like a chiropractor or food life coach.
If you'd expressed "Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas"...
from the get-go it would've cleared many areas up.0 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Blue zone people are NOT vegans. They eat an ANIMAL BASED DIET. They laugh at vegans and think they are very silly. I totally agree.
The people in Loma Linda, CA don't laugh at vegans. Many of them are vegan or eat plant-based diets themselves. You should really stop because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Yep! Loma Linda is about an hour from me. I know several of the Seventh Day Adventists from there. Most are plant based and in very good health.5 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉
I'll hold. I will be interested in any data because i have yet to see a study on the data. Also, i think people over generalizate what Keto can or cannot be. Just like vegan, there is a huge variation on how to implement it. When i am Keto, i eat avocado almost daily, low gi berries, lean meats, fatty fish, and low fat dairy. I add fats thru whole eggs, nuts, seeds and avocado oil. I rarely eat processed meats. Most of my meats are black angus or grass fed.5 -
I am an ER PA and work with a lot of cardiologists. They all promote a plant based diet. Most are vegetarian. I have a lot of diabetic patients come to the ER too so have experience with this. Aside, I have been to Greece and Costa Rica and always lost weight on vacations there. The food was very healthy. I’m not diabetic but do think the Mediterranean diet in general is a good model for most people to follow if they are trying to improve their health.
I’m not saying that everyone needs to give up meat but the typical American diet has way too much meat in it, too large of portions, too much unhealthy fat, and too much refined carbs. Most people would do well to eat more of a whole food plant based diet, with some lean meats in it if they want to.
Diabetics don’t need to be on a low carb diet. The type of carbs eaten are important though. I have known people who essentially reversed their type 2 diabetes through vegan diet and weight loss.3 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
Ok banana to bacon may have been wrong articulation on my point. I have had custmers say things very much like that I just get fustrated because I work in a health food store and the misinformation is horrible to watch
I would be happy to get science on keto long term possible side affects. I'm at wrk so hold on til tonight😉
I'll hold. I will be interested in any data because i have yet to see a study on the data. Also, i think people over generalizate what Keto can or cannot be. Just like vegan, there is a huge variation on how to implement it. When i am Keto, i eat avocado almost daily, low gi berries, lean meats, fatty fish, and low fat dairy. I add fats thru whole eggs, nuts, seeds and avocado oil. I rarely eat processed meats. Most of my meats are black angus or grass fed.
You are wiser tan general public and it is refreshing to have civil exchange on MFP 👏👏 There is a distinction between plant based and vegan- both vary extensively! It is unfortunate some give the whole vegan community in a certain catigory-
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Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.5 -
Wrong. 100%. Who told you this nonsense?
When WE docs want to fatten mice in the lab we give them CARBS. They get super fat. With huge fatty livers. The mice that are fed FAT don't get fat. I did this in medical school in the early 1980s. Pathophysiology lab.
And when you eat paté you're eating a duck's fatty liver. How did the poor duck get fatty liver? It was force-fed CARBS.
"Something the docs and dieticians don't tell you is that when they want to induce diabetes in laboratory mice, they are fed extremely high fat diet. Not carbs. Not sugar. FAT. So your doctor is steering you in a good direction. There are also some "vegan meal plans" on the web that you can mix and match to your liking and to give you some more ideas. My dear husband went vegan with me and has loved every day of it. You can make good vegan recipes that fit in your normal food budget. Good luck."
You are comparing humans to force feed mice? Have you ever looked at humans?
Let me edit to expand.
Animal models are a precursor to study a specific topic. They help is determine if there is justification to investigate further.
ETA: are you now for or against carbs? Your post are not consistent.8 -
Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.12 -
There are keto plant based plans btw and low carb.2
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Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.
Yes I agree. I actually got overweight eating too much healthy food.5 -
Fat has more calories per gram than carbs do. It is much easier to exceed a calorie budget eating an equivalent amount of grams of fat as carbs. I see many overweight patients in my practice that eat way too much fat. Of course some also got fat eating too many refined carbs. I have also seen patients have heart attacks and develop gallstones after switching to the keto diet, which is popular now.
I’m not saying the keto diet doesn’t have any benefits to some people and apparently there are different ways to eat on keto, but generally speaking it is not healthy for most as most get too little fiber and too much saturated fat on this diet.
There definitely are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat keto, just like there are healthy and unhealthy ways to be vegan/plant based. Actually, there are healthy and unhealthy ways to eat every type of diet out there.
Yes I agree. I actually got overweight eating too much healthy food.
In general, the data i have seen suggest very little difference in metabolic health with any approach given weight loss is equal. So regardless of the spectrum a person falls in, it really doesn't matter. Ultimately compliance is the only thing that matter.8 -
I tried eating small amounts of the "acceptable" (complex) carbs, paired with protein, and my sugar still went sky high because of the insulin release delay I have going on. This is why I do low carb. I suppose that if I wished to be low carb and vegan at the same time, I could find a way, but I am not choosing to do this right now. Everyone has different needs; YMMV.
If I hadn't gone to see the endocrinologist I would probably still be blundering around making mistakes because there's no way I would have known about the "lazy" pancreas.5 -
I can understand a person's reluctance to eat food that was once a living creature. It is a philosophical or ethical choice. But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.4
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Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w4 -
One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
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southkonahi wrote: »
One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.4 -
Second verse same as the first. I said the same thing back in 2020, I don't know of one licensed physician who would recommend Forks Over Knives for T2. If they are indeed an actual physician then you shouldn't be taking any advice other than medical and if you don't trust that advice, then get yourself a 2nd or 3rd opinion from another medical professional. No one here can diagnose your condition.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »southkonahi wrote: »
One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)
A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.
The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)
A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)
Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.
I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.7 -
Folks, in case I wasn't clear, I'm seeing an endocrinologist and following her treatment plan. There is a dietitian integrated in the endocrinology practice.
At the outset, I was looking for ways to manage a vegan diet because I thought I was supposed to do that but had no experience with it.
Having discovered that such a diet is inappropriate for me, and having uncovered a load of conflicts of interest in the proponents of veganism that my GP follows, the conversation changed. OK? Not looking for a diagnosis on MFP. I already have one.4 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »southkonahi wrote: »
One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.wilson10102018 wrote: »But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)
A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.
The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)
A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)
Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.
I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.
That is an excellent link. 👏I thank you fror posting.1 -
meeppeepneep wrote: »Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w
If you're talking about OP's specific circumstance, I would agree (although it sounds like she's got it all worked out now). If you're talking about the average person: It's really not that hard. I'm almost fifteen years in, have never seen an RD, and my annual blood tests are fine. Just visit an evidence-based resource like veganhealth.org and you'll get the information you need to plan your diet.
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I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole1 -
I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
I go on Pub Med, NIH, etc. Science Direct.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think you could also find a similar stories with plant based dieters and vegans. How many that fall into those categories have iron deficiencies or have seen b12 deficiencies? In my experience, i see more plant based dieters with these ailments than people following keto with other ailments. At most i have seem keto flu and a very small handful with keto rash. Maybe the population is not represented well.. meaning there are more people following vegan or plant based dieting.
While i largely support the LDL hypothesis, i do sometimes question it. Mainly because i haven't seen a large dataset of those studied that follow low carb diets. So the questioned to be asked, what kind of risk is there if LDL is slightly elevated, but you have great triglycerides, HDL, fasting glucose, and no history of cardiovascular disease in the family. Some of my questioning comes from having no heart disease in my family, but both sides have high LDL (100-150 range). And that doesn't matter if we are following a low fat or high fat diet. In fact, my results had the doctor rethink my mom and dads result as i am fit, don't drink or smoke and regularly exercise. My LDL was almost the same as my dad who was 60 lbs overweight, and he used to drink.
Also, when I do keto, i consume mainly lean red meat, chicken thighs, game meats, ahi tuna, salmon, nuts, seeds, greek yogurt, chia seeds, low gi berries, avocado and olive/avocado oil. Essentially, most of my fats are added, not from fatty meats and full fat dairy. I also focus on my protein and less fats. So my fat is often 55-60% at most.
The problem is when people feel the need to eat *kitten* tons of fat because they believe eating copious amounts of fat is the way. And they believe eating butter, coconut oil, or tons of heavy cream in coffee is healthy.6
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