Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.

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Replies

  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,693 Member
    There are keto plant based plans btw and low carb.
  • wilson10102018
    wilson10102018 Posts: 1,306 Member
    I can understand a person's reluctance to eat food that was once a living creature. It is a philosophical or ethical choice. But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
  • meeppeepneep
    meeppeepneep Posts: 56 Member
    edited May 2021
    Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w
  • southkonahi
    southkonahi Posts: 137 Member
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

  • wilson10102018
    wilson10102018 Posts: 1,306 Member
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

    Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.
  • Diatonic12
    Diatonic12 Posts: 32,344 Member
    edited May 2021
    Second verse same as the first. I said the same thing back in 2020, I don't know of one licensed physician who would recommend Forks Over Knives for T2. If they are indeed an actual physician then you shouldn't be taking any advice other than medical and if you don't trust that advice, then get yourself a 2nd or 3rd opinion from another medical professional. No one here can diagnose your condition.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,598 Member
    Folks, in case I wasn't clear, I'm seeing an endocrinologist and following her treatment plan. There is a dietitian integrated in the endocrinology practice.

    At the outset, I was looking for ways to manage a vegan diet because I thought I was supposed to do that but had no experience with it.

    Having discovered that such a diet is inappropriate for me, and having uncovered a load of conflicts of interest in the proponents of veganism that my GP follows, the conversation changed. OK? Not looking for a diagnosis on MFP. I already have one.
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,693 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    But why would a medical doctor attempt to impose philosophy or ethos on a patient when everyone agrees that a balanced diet including items other than plant based is healthier.
    One reason, is that NOT ALL MEDICAL DOCTORS AGREE that "other than plant based is healthier". There are many opinions by the medical profession on most (if not all) medical issues, and diet is one of them.

    Diet is certainly important for good health. But a medical doctor who directs his patient to confine himself to a "plant based diet" is a quack.

    I've been vegetarian for 46+ years, and agree with the above, though I'd maybe put it a little more mildly. (The doctor's other medical advice may be sound . . . ?)

    A doctor who says people *must* eat a fully planted based diet for best health - in the absence of some very unusual medical condition, anyway - is pushing philosophy, not medical knowledge.

    The average person would be better off, health-wise, IMO, if s/he ate more veggies and fruits, because (in the US anyway) the average person eats pitifully few . . . surveys suggest it's well below the semi-standard "5 servings daily" recommendation, and some nutritional authorities are now suggesting that 5 is lower than optimal. Through most of millennia of human history, the majority of human societies have consumed at least some animal-source foods. It seems very unlikely to me that natural selection left us in a state where we get optimum health only by omitting them. (In fact, as observed earlier in the thread, it's normally required to supplement some nutrients when eating fully plant-based.)

    A fully plant based diet can be a fine thing, and can be healthful and nutritious. There are many reasons to adopt such a way of eating, but for the average person the claim that it will result in improved health versus any possible omnivorous diet . . . I think that's nonsense. A doctor who says otherwise is IMO providing scientifically inaccurate nutritional advice. (I'd say the same about a doctor who said people *must* eat meat for good health, too, at least at this stage of scientific understanding.)

    Forks Over Knives is an advocacy site - pretty openly and honestly so, and not the most absurdly unscientific example of the type (there are some doozies). For plant-based nutritional advice, though, I'd go with https://veganhealth.org/.

    I think the misleading advocacy sites mis-state the valid case(s) for plant-based eating, make plant-based eaters look bad, and ultimately undermine their own goals by doing so. If they can only make converts by cherry picking studies or distorting conclusions, that's not a sign of integrity or intelligence.

    That is an excellent link. 👏I thank you fror posting.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    Run away. Forks over knives is quackery of the worst kind. Go see a registered dietician and take their advice. That goes double if you are going vegan, because it's easy to not get all nutrients you need.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ID_2ymmvW5w

    If you're talking about OP's specific circumstance, I would agree (although it sounds like she's got it all worked out now). If you're talking about the average person: It's really not that hard. I'm almost fifteen years in, have never seen an RD, and my annual blood tests are fine. Just visit an evidence-based resource like veganhealth.org and you'll get the information you need to plan your diet.

  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,693 Member
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,693 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.

    I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.

    (Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
  • VegjoyP
    VegjoyP Posts: 2,693 Member
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    VegjoyP wrote: »
    I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
    Same with any restriction as a whole

    I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.

    I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.

    Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.

    I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.

    (Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).

    I go on Pub Med, NIH, etc. Science Direct.