Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Fitness and diet myths that just won't go away
Options
Replies
-
Like snakes, LOL. The next diet advice will be to swallow Whole Foods whole....3
-
There already is a 'snake diet' out there - I won't post a link to it, but you can google it... basic concept is that snakes only eat every 2-3 days so we should also... just nope!3
-
Thought of this thread while standing in line at the grocery store yesterday...one of those thin, newspaper-like magazines had a headline that read, “lose 45 pounds in 10 days”. I would only need another two, maybe three, days to meet my goal! I guess I should’ve bought it!4
-
wunderkindking wrote: »slightly different but
The idea that EVERYONE needs to be low/lower sodium for health.
No.
My husband and his high BP need to be lower sodium. Me? I went low sodium with him for a week then fainted. Turns out me salting everything is self-medicating. My normal BP (and it is normal for me/not dangerous, I have seen a doctor) is low.
And I should just eat the salt.
(Fun corollary: Spouse thought for ages he didn't eat much sodium because he didn't *ADD* salt - and grumped and grumbled that it wasn't fair he was the one with high pb where I was dousing my food in salt. Turns out he's wrong. He was eating a metric ton of sodium in things like canned soup and deli-meat and tv dinners. Surprise, darling.)
I have a relative who has literally glared at me for using salt when I cook because it's "so unhealthy." I too have low blood pressure and always have. We don't eat a lot of the kind of things that come with a lot of sodium either, so I'm not particularly alarmed for my husband or kids. But you'd think I was dumping it on to kill them on purpose.
I do probably lean towards the "clean eating" side of the spectrum for various reasons, at least as an 80/20 deal, but salt is normal. Good. Societies have risen and fallen over salt. A lot of our words use the Latin "sal" - salad, salary, etc. It also makes food delicious.
2 -
The concept that is usually stated oversimplified - carbs is your primary fuel. (neither in amount of calories burned for avg daily activity, nor in majority of time, nor in used first)
Side confusion then follows - you have to use up carbs first to start using fat. (ratio used as mostly fat from resting state to mainly carbs when anaerobic)
Or other side confusion - Keto will cause you to be fat-adapted and start using fat first and ketones usually thrown in there somewhere. (already burn fat mainly no adapting required, brain using about 10-15% of daily calories as carbs and can go to ketones though, but ketones not produced fast enough for intense exercise)1 -
Fat weighs more than muscle! A pound is a pound. The volume that it takes up in your body is the difference.2
-
But I think we all know what is meant by muscle weighs more than fat.8
-
That you can "lengthen" your muscles making you look leaner. Yoga and pilates state this a lot.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
That you can "lengthen" your muscles making you look leaner. Yoga and pilates state this a lot.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Even if you could, you really wouldn't want to.
I managed to lengthen some of the tendons in my rotator cuff (I have hyperextensive joints, it wasn't on purpose!)... you know, the ones that stabilize your shoulder. I now have subluxation in that joint. In other words, a very very unstable shoulder.3 -
That you can "lengthen" your muscles making you look leaner. Yoga and pilates state this a lot.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Even if you could, you really wouldn't want to.
I managed to lengthen some of the tendons in my rotator cuff (I have hyperextensive joints, it wasn't on purpose!)... you know, the ones that stabilize your shoulder. I now have subluxation in that joint. In other words, a very very unstable shoulder.
All of my kids have been late walkers, likely because they have hyperextensive joints - I never really considered it until one was so late he qualified for early intervention services, and the therapist tested his ankles and then on a hunch checked my other kids too.
Surprisingly, we haven't had much in the way of major injuries (kind of amazing because they are constantly engaging in wild and dangerous activities, as children should).
I dug out a workout video recently that I remembered I owned and their whole shtick is "long, lean, sexy muscles." Now that I know that's all marketing, I don't think I can do the video anymore with a straight face. Though I do often put them on mute, so maybe that would be fine.
2 -
penguinmama87 wrote: »That you can "lengthen" your muscles making you look leaner. Yoga and pilates state this a lot.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Even if you could, you really wouldn't want to.
I managed to lengthen some of the tendons in my rotator cuff (I have hyperextensive joints, it wasn't on purpose!)... you know, the ones that stabilize your shoulder. I now have subluxation in that joint. In other words, a very very unstable shoulder.
All of my kids have been late walkers, likely because they have hyperextensive joints - I never really considered it until one was so late he qualified for early intervention services, and the therapist tested his ankles and then on a hunch checked my other kids too.
Surprisingly, we haven't had much in the way of major injuries (kind of amazing because they are constantly engaging in wild and dangerous activities, as children should).
I wasn't wild or athletic so mine wasn't diagnosed until my late 40s. Although I've always been able to dislocate (and re-locate) one of my thumbs, I just thought that was one of my weird "things". I had gone to physiotherapy for that shoulder and the PT was putting me through a very thorough assessment. She asked me to put my arm behind my back as high as possible and when I did she screamed (and said, "No, don't do that".) Then she immediately started testing all my joints and finally informed me they were hyperextensive.
The worst thing is repeatedly overextending the joint's range of motion, which I was doing without realizing that my shoulder really shouldn't move like that.2 -
"Supplements work".
No. They don't. I wish I'd known that in my 20's when ironically, some of them did work because they were spiked with anabolic steroids...5 -
Yeah, the prohormones back in the 2000's were pretty potent."Supplements work".
No. They don't. I wish I'd known that in my 20's when ironically, some of them did work because they were spiked with anabolic steroids...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
This content has been removed.
-
Well most of the time I hear of hard gainers, I come to find out that they just don't eat enough to support adding muscle. When you tell a kid he has to eat 4000 calories a day due to his activity, they BELIEVE they do when in reality they may just eat 2500.Tren_Baloney wrote: »I've kinda wondered if "hard gainer" is a legit thing, wondered if some of us who have tried adding muscle mass are just impatient.
So are their hard gainers? Well I believe based on genetics and in some cases people flat out not being able to handle overload well, there are hard gainers. I know lots of guys who would like arms like mine and train like I do and don't get them. For me, it's hamstrings. I spend over 2 years trying to get them to match my quads and still to no avail.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 3 -
This content has been removed.
-
People who spout that really have no idea how stored body fat is actually burned. They've been brainwashed to think that carbs are evil.Tren_Baloney wrote: »What's this whole keto thing about "keep carbs/sugar low because it'll spike insulin level which makes it harder for your body to burn fat, etc etc, baloney baloney".... or something to that effect
Doesn't a person lose weight (aka burn off fat) regardless of what kinda diet they're on, given they are in a calory deficit?
What's really STUPID is that countries that have normal weights for their WHOLE population eat a lot of rice (Asians). How do they explain that one?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
This content has been removed.
-
This content has been removed.
-
This content has been removed.
-
This content has been removed.
-
This content has been removed.
-
Tren_Baloney wrote: »
People who spout that really have no idea how stored body fat is actually burned. They've been brainwashed to think that carbs are evil.Tren_Baloney wrote: »What's this whole keto thing about "keep carbs/sugar low because it'll spike insulin level which makes it harder for your body to burn fat, etc etc, baloney baloney".... or something to that effect
Doesn't a person lose weight (aka burn off fat) regardless of what kinda diet they're on, given they are in a calory deficit?
What's really STUPID is that countries that have normal weights for their WHOLE population eat a lot of rice (Asians). How do they explain that one?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wait a sec. If Asians eat lots rice.. and keto hates on carbs.. then..
keto = rice discrimination = keto is essentially racist against asians?
Finally! Algebra comes in handy.1 -
This content has been removed.
-
I've read through the whole thread and I don't think anyone's mentioned the assertion that a history of yo-yo dieting means that you've royally screwed up your metabolism and will henceforth lose at a snail's pace (or not at all).
IME this is a myth.
Because I'm a nerd I have the records of all my previous major weight loss attempts, dating back to 1993 when I was 28.
In 1993 (age 28) I lost 74lbs to reach a BMI of 29.8. It took me 44 weeks (loss rate of 1.6lbs a week). I fueled myself badly and did tons of unsustainable high intensity exercise to achieve this loss rate.
In 2006 (age 41) I lost 54lbs to reach a BMI of 31.3. It took me 35 weeks (loss rate of 1.54lbs a week). Again, I fueled myself badly and exercised like a loon to achieve the loss rate.
In 2013 (age 48) I lost 88lbs to reach a BMI of 25. It took me 52 weeks to lose the first 78lbs (a loss rate of 1.5lbs per week) and a further 15 weeks to lose the last 10lbs (a loss rate of 0.67lbs a week). This time I was using MFP so I fueled myself better and didn't get quite so obsessive about exercise. I thought I'd finally 'cracked it' and that I'd learned the lessons of how to maintain a healthy weight. I was mistaken.
In 2016 (age 51) I lost 44lbs to reach a BMI of 28.6. It took me 40 weeks ( a loss rate of 1.067 a week). Again I was using MFP so I fueled myself well and did sustainable amounts of exercise.
This brings me to the current day. I'm at the beginning of the journey, but I started in March 2021 (age 55). Twelve weeks later, I've lost 26.2lbs ( a loss rate of a little over 2lbs a week.) I'm eating really well, paying attention to both calories and macros, and focusing on sustainable exercise (dog walking, gardening, the odd cycle ride) and increasing my NEAT.
Clearly, despite four previous lengthy and successful weight loss programmes (followed by frighteningly rapid regains) I haven't screwed up my metabolism for seeing results when I run a calorie deficit. I'm now 56, post menopausal, exercising moderately, eating well, and yet losing at a faster rate than ever before.
Where I think yo-you dieting MAY have screwed me up metabolically/neurologically etc. is in terms of MAINTAINING the weight loss. I've always regained quickly, meaning most of my adult life (and most of my childhood and adolescence) was spent either overweight or obese. I'm under no illusions about the challenges of maintenance for someone in my situation with my weight loss/regain history.
But yo-yo dieting and past failures rendering weight loss per se difficult or impossible - no, I'm living proof that that link isn't proven.4 -
Bella_Figura wrote: »I've read through the whole thread and I don't think anyone's mentioned the assertion that a history of yo-yo dieting means that you've royally screwed up your metabolism and will henceforth lose at a snail's pace (or not at all).
IME this is a myth.
Because I'm a nerd I have the records of all my previous major weight loss attempts, dating back to 1993 when I was 28.
In 1993 (age 28) I lost 74lbs to reach a BMI of 29.8. It took me 44 weeks (loss rate of 1.6lbs a week). I fueled myself badly and did tons of unsustainable high intensity exercise to achieve this loss rate.
In 2006 (age 41) I lost 54lbs to reach a BMI of 31.3. It took me 35 weeks (loss rate of 1.54lbs a week). Again, I fueled myself badly and exercised like a loon to achieve the loss rate.
In 2013 (age 48) I lost 88lbs to reach a BMI of 25. It took me 52 weeks to lose the first 78lbs (a loss rate of 1.5lbs per week) and a further 15 weeks to lose the last 10lbs (a loss rate of 0.67lbs a week). This time I was using MFP so I fueled myself better and didn't get quite so obsessive about exercise. I thought I'd finally 'cracked it' and that I'd learned the lessons of how to maintain a healthy weight. I was mistaken.
In 2016 (age 51) I lost 44lbs to reach a BMI of 28.6. It took me 40 weeks ( a loss rate of 1.067 a week). Again I was using MFP so I fueled myself well and did sustainable amounts of exercise.
This brings me to the current day. I'm at the beginning of the journey, but I started in March 2021 (age 55). Twelve weeks later, I've lost 26.2lbs ( a loss rate of a little over 2lbs a week.) I'm eating really well, paying attention to both calories and macros, and focusing on sustainable exercise (dog walking, gardening, the odd cycle ride) and increasing my NEAT.
Clearly, despite four previous lengthy and successful weight loss programmes (followed by frighteningly rapid regains) I haven't screwed up my metabolism for seeing results when I run a calorie deficit. I'm now 56, post menopausal, exercising moderately, eating well, and yet losing at a faster rate than ever before.
Where I think yo-you dieting MAY have screwed me up metabolically/neurologically etc. is in terms of MAINTAINING the weight loss. I've always regained quickly, meaning most of my adult life (and most of my childhood and adolescence) was spent either overweight or obese. I'm under no illusions about the challenges of maintenance for someone in my situation with my weight loss/regain history.
But yo-yo dieting and past failures rendering weight loss per se difficult or impossible - no, I'm living proof that that link isn't proven.
I agree with you that "yo-yo history = metabolic doom, so weight loss doom" is inaccurate.
But n=1 is living proof that it isn't universally impossible to lose. "More difficult" is more subjective.
On your MFP rounds, what calorie level got you those weight loss rates each time? What was your calculated TDEE based on intake and loss rate each round?
I do think that some people may experience a yo-yo penalty in effective TDEE, via many rounds of extreme yo-yo-ing. Speculatively, the mechanism would be unnecessarily large loss of lean mass in the extreme cuts (high cardio, low calories, lots of salad-y foods, lowball protein) followed by regain (minimal/no exercise, lots of calories, very carb-y and fatty eating, still lowball protein). That's the yo-yo pattern I've often seen in female friends my age (65). There's possibly some amount of adaptive thermogenesis simply from repeated weight loss, independent of inappropriate/extreme methods used to do it. I'd also suspect there could be potential for reduced daily life calorie expenditure, through gradually increased habits of inactivity (conspiracy of fatigue during loss, unfitness during regain, making it less natural/fun/easy to be active in daily non-exercise life, not necessarily consciously so).
Slightly lower muscle mass, adaptive thermogenesis, reductions in habits of daily life movement . . . would be a lower effective TDEE than one would have had without those things.
Of course, none of that makes it impossible to lose weight . . . but could make it somewhat more difficult to lose, or to maintain. (IOW, I suspect a lower TDEE potentially makes loss a little more difficult, psychologically and socially.)
This is a complete aside, but I wonder how much yo-yo-ing is statistically cooked into the decline in BMR/RMR estimated by the research-based formulas, since yo-yo dieting history is so relatively common among older age people, especially women. Ditto for unfitness, to the degree that it's discretionary and lifestyle-dependent vs. biologically inevitable with aging. I completely understand that statistical models aren't reality, and do drop out factors that are potentially meaningful at n=1, but not in averages . . . but it's interesting to me that BMR/RMR estimates that include a body fat percent factor (so implicitly consider probable lean mass thus possibly muscularity) don't have the same age penalty that estimates not including BF% do have.5 -
On your MFP rounds, what calorie level got you those weight loss rates each time? What was your calculated TDEE based on intake and loss rate each round?
In 2013 (MFP #1) I averaged about 1450 calories a day, against a BMR that shifted from 1564 at the beginning and 1164 at goal, and a TDEE that was around 170% of BMR. I was walking for two hours a day, cycling to and from work and dancing (Northern Soul and Lindy) for between 4 and 6 hours a week. Towards the beginning I was running a deficit of about 1200 calories a day, and by the end the deficit had closed to about 500 calories a day.
The pattern in 2016 was similar.
This time around, I've not relied on calculators. Instead I've calculated my TDEE myself by logging scrupulously and weighing and measuring absolutely everything I eat and drink. It's currently about 167% of BMR. As at this morning's weigh-in, my TDEE is approximately 2293. I'm currently eating about 1550 calories a day, so I'm running a deficit of about 32%, which is a little higher than I was intending to run it (hence faster weight loss than previously). I raised my calorie budget from 1450 to 1550 last week, and this week I intend to raise it to 1700 to try to slow the loss rate a little. My calorie burn comes from two brisk daily dog walks that total 100-120 minutes, plus some gardening (some strenuous digging but also plenty of gentle weeding), plus the odd gentle cycle ride. I'm on the go most of the day though, so my NEAT burn is pretty high I think.I do think that some people may experience a yo-yo penalty in effective TDEE, via many rounds of extreme yo-yo-ing. Speculatively, the mechanism would be unnecessarily large loss of lean mass in the extreme cuts (high cardio, low calories, lots of salad-y foods, lowball protein) followed by regain (minimal/no exercise, lots of calories, very carb-y and fatty eating, still lowball protein). That's the yo-yo pattern I've often seen in female friends my age (65).
In my regain periods I usually remain pretty active (still walk the dog, still dig/weed, still fidget and move around a lot) but I return to suboptimal eating patterns (portion control slips badly, calorie input rises sharply, albeit from reasonably healthy nutrient-dense foods). I allow larger portions to become the norm.
Slightly lower muscle mass, adaptive thermogenesis, reductions in habits of daily life movement . . . would be a lower effective TDEE than one would have had without those things.
I calculate conservatively that my TDEE for maintenance will be around 300 calories a day lower than that of someone who has the same age, weight, height and activity profile as me. This will be a challenge that I'm trying to use the next year to mentally prepare for. That's why I'm in no rush to reach goal - I need the time to make the mental adjustment.
2 -
Tren_Baloney wrote: »
People who spout that really have no idea how stored body fat is actually burned. They've been brainwashed to think that carbs are evil.Tren_Baloney wrote: »What's this whole keto thing about "keep carbs/sugar low because it'll spike insulin level which makes it harder for your body to burn fat, etc etc, baloney baloney".... or something to that effect
Doesn't a person lose weight (aka burn off fat) regardless of what kinda diet they're on, given they are in a calory deficit?
What's really STUPID is that countries that have normal weights for their WHOLE population eat a lot of rice (Asians). How do they explain that one?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wait a sec. If Asians eat lots rice.. and keto hates on carbs.. then..
keto = rice discrimination = keto is essentially racist against asians?
Hahaha! Everytime a I hear a keto person bashing rice (there's a real arrogant one on here now) I just point to Asian countries. And it usually shuts them up.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Bella_Figura wrote: »In my regain periods I usually remain pretty active (still walk the dog, still dig/weed, still fidget and move around a lot) but I return to suboptimal eating patterns (portion control slips badly, calorie input rises sharply, albeit from reasonably healthy nutrient-dense foods). I allow larger portions to become the norm.
A piece of advice I read years back and still follow to this day: eat for the body you want. Whether you want to gain or lose weight, figure out what a person of your goal weight would eat as regular maintenance, and make THAT your new norm. Your body will over time change to be more in line with this new "normal." Yes, the change will be slower than if you actually calculate out a plus/minus x calories per day, but the benefit is you only have to change your eating habits ONCE. Reach your desired weight, your daily eating plan doesn't change one bit to sustain it, you've already been doing it for a while.4 -
I recently remembered a conversation I had with the husband of my wife's best friend, back when I started lifting and began having noticeable changes in my physique. Basically, his advice boiled down to:
Keep your gains small; don't gain too much muscle.
Why? Because he was convinced that not only would added muscle magically morph into fat the second I ever stopped lifting, but also that I would be doomed to lose all joint flexibility and therefore be unable to take care of basic daily needs, such as dressing myself or bathroom hygiene. Well, I've been lifting for over a decade now and have no problems with either of these things, so I'm probably good to go.
My wife wasn't concerned about daily needs, but for years she feared I would turn into Arnold Schwarzenegger, a body type she doesn't find attractive. (She's fine with muscles...think Chippendale's...but not MUSCLE.) Despite me telling her repeatedly I could never reach that level of mass, whether due to genetics, lack of time to workout eight hours per day, lack of money/desire to eat enough food, lack of steroids...her brain may have agreed, but she still held this inner fear. But with time comes acceptance, and the fact I haven't blown up after years of lifting I think has quieted her inner fears, at least to the point she doesn't voice them out loud anymore.2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 396.5K Introduce Yourself
- 44.2K Getting Started
- 260.8K Health and Weight Loss
- 176.3K Food and Nutrition
- 47.6K Recipes
- 232.8K Fitness and Exercise
- 449 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.3K Motivation and Support
- 8.3K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.5K Chit-Chat
- 2.6K Fun and Games
- 4.5K MyFitnessPal Information
- 16 News and Announcements
- 18 MyFitnessPal Academy
- 1.4K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions