Coronavirus prep

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

Having a copy on line does not help those without computers............

Those who sign up online obviously have access to a smartphone or computer. The site I went to early on was online sign-up, so I didn't even think about looking for a sheet about side effects since it had been provided when I signed up. I think they did hand me something (I don't recall for sure since I didn't bother looking at it and tossed it later) and they made us wait after to make sure no immediate allergic reaction, and of course one could ask questions of the people there.

I also seriously doubt that anyone who wanted one couldn't ask for one either, but -- more significantly -- the idea that people are vaccine hesitant since hard copies of the warnings are not obviously available for the taking at some (I would bet very few) sites when people went to the sites after having already decided to get the vax makes absolutely no sense.

Those who got the vax at pharmacies (as is more common now since they are available there and have been for months, of course) seem to be saying the sheet is provided, as is the case IME with other vaccines at the pharmacy.

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

So, you are happy for 15% of your population to be disadvantaged!

Not sure what you are talking about here. Because they (allegedly, I haven't checked the figures) don't have computers or smartphones? Like kshama said, computers are available in various public places like libraries (and were made available in a homeless shelter I've volunteered at) and when we had virtual school my city made a huge effort to provide all school kids with iPads if they didn't have them (our local public school system is high percentage lower income).

Or do you mean something covid related? I don't believe we've identified any way that people without smartphone or computers are disadvantaged in connection with covid currently.

These people should have access to good information too and not just about vaccines.

And they do. As many people pointed out, hard copy warnings/information sheets re the vaccines are commonly provided, and presumably more so at places where they weren't necessarily provided online when one signed up. And while the US is quite varied, I suspect that if you ask for a hard copy sheet most places that didn't routinely have them available (often probably bc sign up was online so online access had been provided) would give you one even if they weren't routinely doing so. I also know that my city has done special outreach since the beginning of vaccine availability to poorer areas of the city (and less white areas of the city), as well as to older folks from less advantaged backgrounds (some 70-y-o doctor in the wealthier burbs usually didn't need such outreach, of course), and that includes providing information in depth about the vaccine, so your knee jerk assumption that people in the US generally -- and especially those who are vaccine hesitant -- are such because hard copy warnings aren't available at vaccine sites (which I don't think is widely true even if it is possible that at the occasional site one for some reason couldn't access them) makes no sense, again. My personal suspicion is that vaccine hesitancy tends to be more associated with internet rabbit holes that push conspiracy theories and fear-mongering about the vaccine than a lack of access to the internet or whether or not sites one visits after deciding to get vaxxed have hard copy sheets about side effects available.

It also strikes me that you are often very quick to interpret anything that is said about the US in the worst possible and stereotypical way.

mockchoc wrote: »

kshama2001 wrote: »

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

Having a copy on line does not help those without computers............

85% of Americans own a smartphone and nearly every U.S. public library offers free access to computers and the Internet.

Guess what. Not all of us are American for one. I know many without smart phones especially older people and for one my parents wouldn't even think about using a computer at a library since they never used one in their whole lives. They have phones but would never use the internet etc on it. Just because you can doesn't mean the rest of the world is up to it.

The branch of this discussion that started the post you replied to . . . was about people in the US not having access to information about the vaccine at the time of the sign-up or vaccination, more or less. Hence the US being the relevant geographic reference. Someone in the UK was advancing the idea that it was better to be in England, because they got the info in a handout. Around 75-80% of USAians signed up for the vax online, and the info was available where they signed up. 85% of USAians have smartphones. Someone with a smartphone could sign up online, get the info online.

The point was about info being available to USAians, countering the odd idea that people here in the US were vaccine hesitant (or something like that) because we didn't get a handout like they did in the UK.

Of course different things are true in different countries.

Guys, given the state of anti-vax misinformation in the US right now, I’m not sure those without internet don’t have an advantage when it comes to being informed about the vaccine.

lemurcat2 wrote: »

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

Having a copy on line does not help those without computers............

Those who sign up online obviously have access to a smartphone or computer. The site I went to early on was online sign-up, so I didn't even think about looking for a sheet about side effects since it had been provided when I signed up. I think they did hand me something (I don't recall for sure since I didn't bother looking at it and tossed it later) and they made us wait after to make sure no immediate allergic reaction, and of course one could ask questions of the people there.

I also seriously doubt that anyone who wanted one couldn't ask for one either, but -- more significantly -- the idea that people are vaccine hesitant since hard copies of the warnings are not obviously available for the taking at some (I would bet very few) sites when people went to the sites after having already decided to get the vax makes absolutely no sense.

Those who got the vax at pharmacies (as is more common now since they are available there and have been for months, of course) seem to be saying the sheet is provided, as is the case IME with other vaccines at the pharmacy.

I totally agree with you that lack of a hard copy with the information on contraindications and potential side effects was not a factor in people not getting the vaccine. But I remember in the December-February time frame hearing about lots of people who had Internet access and comfort/expertise in using it volunteering their time trying to get appointments for people who lacked access, comfort, or expertise. So not everyone who signed up obviously had access to a smartphone or computer.

This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?

These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.

ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.

SModa61 wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths ...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?

These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.

ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.

He does realize that the world is round and that we did land on the moon. Right?

Maybe. Maybe not.

One of the drivers of clinging to easily disproved conspiracy theories is a need to feel special. Like they’re in control of something in an otherwise confusing and chaotic time.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721417718261

That, and, of course, there have been actual conspiracies to harm certain groups. (Tuskegee Experiment, MKUltra, etc) So a person needs to be able to sort the real from the wildly imagined. Which is not a skill all people possess.

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

lemurcat2 wrote: »

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

Having a copy on line does not help those without computers............

Those who sign up online obviously have access to a smartphone or computer. The site I went to early on was online sign-up, so I didn't even think about looking for a sheet about side effects since it had been provided when I signed up. I think they did hand me something (I don't recall for sure since I didn't bother looking at it and tossed it later) and they made us wait after to make sure no immediate allergic reaction, and of course one could ask questions of the people there.

I also seriously doubt that anyone who wanted one couldn't ask for one either, but -- more significantly -- the idea that people are vaccine hesitant since hard copies of the warnings are not obviously available for the taking at some (I would bet very few) sites when people went to the sites after having already decided to get the vax makes absolutely no sense.

Those who got the vax at pharmacies (as is more common now since they are available there and have been for months, of course) seem to be saying the sheet is provided, as is the case IME with other vaccines at the pharmacy.

I totally agree with you that lack of a hard copy with the information on contraindications and potential side effects was not a factor in people not getting the vaccine. But I remember in the December-February time frame hearing about lots of people who had Internet access and comfort/expertise in using it volunteering their time trying to get appointments for people who lacked access, comfort, or expertise. So not everyone who signed up obviously had access to a smartphone or computer.

I totally agree with Ann above who said what I meant better, but here's my response:

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

I totally agree with you that lack of a hard copy with the information on contraindications and potential side effects was not a factor in people not getting the vaccine.

Which is really my main point here.

But I remember in the December-February time frame hearing about lots of people who had Internet access and comfort/expertise in using it volunteering their time trying to get appointments for people who lacked access, comfort, or expertise. So not everyone who signed up obviously had access to a smartphone or computer.

Okay, but why wouldn't the person who signed them up have provided them with the relevant information? I recall lots of people doing so for older relatives. My ward had a covid volunteer group that I worked with for a while (calling people to see if they needed anything, let them know about resources, providing them with masks and groceries), and we would have signed people up and provided them with all the relevant information, but I don't think we identified anyone needing that help.

Also, no one is saying that information about side effects should only be provided online. I suspect it was upon asking even at places where it wasn't automatically handed to you. And as I said before, here there were outreach efforts to people less likely to have internet access, and since many of those people were also in groups known to be more vaccine hesitant here, much of that was providing them with relevant information.

And back on the main point, I don't think people not knowing about possible side effects has a thing to do with vaccine hesitancy. I think it has more to do with people buying into lies about the danger of vaccines. If Fuzzipeg is claiming Americans are inadequately informed of possible side effects, I think she just is speaking with no knowledge of the US (which I have seen as a pattern).

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.

Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.

No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.

Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.

The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.

Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)

And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).

lemurcat2 wrote: »

lynn_glenmont wrote: »

I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.

Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.

No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.

Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.

The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.

Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)

And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).

I agree with you, but find it interesting that some people think that all information comes from the internet. In Italy our news media is still bombarded every day with vaccine information as are the newspapers. You'd have to live in a cave to have no information on possible side effects.

Since @Fuzzypeg1954 lives in England and their principal vaccine is AZ that may explain why they were given pamplets on site. AZ had more reactions. We started with Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and J&J here, but AZ was eliminated because the public lost trust. Our principal vaccine is Pfizer and reactions have been mild overall.

We now have 80% vaccinated and expect to be at 90% in October. The government is forcing by law. Our COVID coordinator here is an army general. Everything is moving like clockwork. We laugh because when he's on TV he's in full uniform with a chest full of medals. However, we're lucky to have the guy. He knows his stuff.

All government workers need a "Green Pass" (proof of vaccination) to go to work. Anyone without will not be fired but suspended without pay. All public transport requires a GP as well as gyms, restaurants, stadiums, trains, planes, schools (depending on age--younger children are not yet vaccinated, but COVID is running rampant in the schools), as well as private businesses, and the list goes on...... With no vaccination, you must sit outside in restaurants and bars.

Our COVID numbers are as low as they've ever been. Hospitalizations and intensive care are very contained and still going down. The city is once more full of tourists. Many businesses have closed, which is sad. I see most people on the street still wearing masks, and they are required to enter gyms, stores, transport, restaurants and bars (until you arrive at your place--if you get up to go to the bathroom, or any other reason, you must put your mask on). I was at the pool this morning and can only take off my mask to shower and when I swim.

Boosters will be starting next week for those that got their 1st doses a year ago. These are the very elderly and medical staff. Most of our COVID cases are Delta. Most of our deaths now and intensive care are no-vaxers. Some of them are around 40. Too young.