Coronavirus prep
Replies
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This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?
These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.
ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.26 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths ...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?
These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.
ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.
He does realize that the world is round and that we did land on the moon. Right?7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths ...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?
These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.
ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.
He does realize that the world is round and that we did land on the moon. Right?
Maybe. Maybe not.
One of the drivers of clinging to easily disproved conspiracy theories is a need to feel special. Like they’re in control of something in an otherwise confusing and chaotic time.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721417718261
That, and, of course, there have been actual conspiracies to harm certain groups. (Tuskegee Experiment, MKUltra, etc) So a person needs to be able to sort the real from the wildly imagined. Which is not a skill all people possess.6 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »This whole convo is weird. The vaccine hesitant aren't hesitant because they didn't get some piece of paper with potential side effects or a lack of information because of no internet access or whatever. Every single vax hesitant person I know has access to too much information because every single one of them goes down a gazillion different conspiracy theory rabbit holes of misinformation...which is absolutely amazing to me because they are literally surrounded by people who are vaxed with no issue...never mind the billions worldwide. Guy I work with insists that tens of thousands of people are dying regularly from the vaccine and it's being covered up by the government and that the true numbers are approaching that of actual COVID deaths ...like how could that possibly be covered up and how is it that nobody around him has had any issue whatsoever, let alone dropping dead?
These people lack critical thinking skills and would rather believe a bunch of nonsense than what they actually see with their own eyes.
ETA: he also won't get the flu shot as he is somehow convinced that people who get the flu shot are more susceptible to catching COVID...I haven't quite figured out how he's come to that conclusion...but many of these people are into some pretty wild *kitten*.
He does realize that the world is round and that we did land on the moon. Right?
Someone I know recently posted on FB that the planes hitting the World Trade Center were holographic. I know her; she was not joking. She shares some of wolfman's co-worker's beliefs about the vaccine (plus more, including some real doozies). She is not an actually stupid person. 🤷♀️11 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Having a copy on line does not help those without computers............
Those who sign up online obviously have access to a smartphone or computer. The site I went to early on was online sign-up, so I didn't even think about looking for a sheet about side effects since it had been provided when I signed up. I think they did hand me something (I don't recall for sure since I didn't bother looking at it and tossed it later) and they made us wait after to make sure no immediate allergic reaction, and of course one could ask questions of the people there.
I also seriously doubt that anyone who wanted one couldn't ask for one either, but -- more significantly -- the idea that people are vaccine hesitant since hard copies of the warnings are not obviously available for the taking at some (I would bet very few) sites when people went to the sites after having already decided to get the vax makes absolutely no sense.
Those who got the vax at pharmacies (as is more common now since they are available there and have been for months, of course) seem to be saying the sheet is provided, as is the case IME with other vaccines at the pharmacy.
I totally agree with you that lack of a hard copy with the information on contraindications and potential side effects was not a factor in people not getting the vaccine. But I remember in the December-February time frame hearing about lots of people who had Internet access and comfort/expertise in using it volunteering their time trying to get appointments for people who lacked access, comfort, or expertise. So not everyone who signed up obviously had access to a smartphone or computer.
I totally agree with Ann above who said what I meant better, but here's my response:lynn_glenmont wrote: »I totally agree with you that lack of a hard copy with the information on contraindications and potential side effects was not a factor in people not getting the vaccine.
Which is really my main point here.But I remember in the December-February time frame hearing about lots of people who had Internet access and comfort/expertise in using it volunteering their time trying to get appointments for people who lacked access, comfort, or expertise. So not everyone who signed up obviously had access to a smartphone or computer.
Okay, but why wouldn't the person who signed them up have provided them with the relevant information? I recall lots of people doing so for older relatives. My ward had a covid volunteer group that I worked with for a while (calling people to see if they needed anything, let them know about resources, providing them with masks and groceries), and we would have signed people up and provided them with all the relevant information, but I don't think we identified anyone needing that help.
Also, no one is saying that information about side effects should only be provided online. I suspect it was upon asking even at places where it wasn't automatically handed to you. And as I said before, here there were outreach efforts to people less likely to have internet access, and since many of those people were also in groups known to be more vaccine hesitant here, much of that was providing them with relevant information.
And back on the main point, I don't think people not knowing about possible side effects has a thing to do with vaccine hesitancy. I think it has more to do with people buying into lies about the danger of vaccines. If Fuzzipeg is claiming Americans are inadequately informed of possible side effects, I think she just is speaking with no knowledge of the US (which I have seen as a pattern).6 -
I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).5 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »
"...However, conspiracy theories appear to provide broad, internally consistent explanations that allow people to preserve beliefs in the face of uncertainty and contradiction..."
Awesome resource. Explains my parents - especially my dad, who just cannot be wrong about anything. There must be an explanation somewhere out there that backs him up. And if there aren't any actual facts to do it, he can surely find plenty of facty-sounding opinions and what-if scenarios to bolster his alternative realities...
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
I agree with you, but find it interesting that some people think that all information comes from the internet. In Italy our news media is still bombarded every day with vaccine information as are the newspapers. You'd have to live in a cave to have no information on possible side effects.
Since @Fuzzypeg1954 lives in England and their principal vaccine is AZ that may explain why they were given pamplets on site. AZ had more reactions. We started with Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and J&J here, but AZ was eliminated because the public lost trust. Our principal vaccine is Pfizer and reactions have been mild overall.
We now have 80% vaccinated and expect to be at 90% in October. The government is forcing by law. Our COVID coordinator here is an army general. Everything is moving like clockwork. We laugh because when he's on TV he's in full uniform with a chest full of medals. However, we're lucky to have the guy. He knows his stuff.
All government workers need a "Green Pass" (proof of vaccination) to go to work. Anyone without will not be fired but suspended without pay. All public transport requires a GP as well as gyms, restaurants, stadiums, trains, planes, schools (depending on age--younger children are not yet vaccinated, but COVID is running rampant in the schools), as well as private businesses, and the list goes on...... With no vaccination, you must sit outside in restaurants and bars.
Our COVID numbers are as low as they've ever been. Hospitalizations and intensive care are very contained and still going down. The city is once more full of tourists. Many businesses have closed, which is sad. I see most people on the street still wearing masks, and they are required to enter gyms, stores, transport, restaurants and bars (until you arrive at your place--if you get up to go to the bathroom, or any other reason, you must put your mask on). I was at the pool this morning and can only take off my mask to shower and when I swim.
Boosters will be starting next week for those that got their 1st doses a year ago. These are the very elderly and medical staff. Most of our COVID cases are Delta. Most of our deaths now and intensive care are no-vaxers. Some of them are around 40. Too young.
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Lynn G, I'm so very sorry, it seems many do not have the information they, I consider I need, at their fingertips. Many have access to the internet but many don't. No wonder so many decide not to have the vaccine. Possibly having this information in paper form is the one good thing about being in England.
What difference does format make? Good information or bad information is the same whether it's read from a screen or a piece of paper?6 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Guess what. Not all of us are American for one. I know many without smart phones especially older people and for one my parents wouldn't even think about using a computer at a library since they never used one in their whole lives. They have phones but would never use the internet etc on it. Just because you can doesn't mean the rest of the world is up to it.
It would be great if you or someone else they knew would get them up to speed on computers/smartphones.
My 92 year old MIL uses her iPhone like a boss.15 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.7 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.
Again, anecdotes about how something worked for one person don't mean that it worked for everyone. Not everybody can.2 -
So I realized I had only listened to the first part of the interview with Dr Shane Crotty and finally listened to the rest. A few more interesting bits:
He made a distinction that I hadn't fully understood yet but is prob obvious to someone in this field. This goes back to the point that waning antibodies is perfectly normal and shouldn't be used to cast aspersions at the vaccines. He said circulating antibodies present before the virus arrives is essentially sterilizing immunity. The antibodies will most likely neutralize and dispose of the virus before it is able to infect you. Cellular immunity - T cells - your immune system's ability to produce antibodies after the virus is detected in your body - is protective immunity. You may very well get infected, but your body will attack and dispose of the virus before it can do any (or much) damage. This is what most actively used vaccines do for us.
He suggested that if we were at closer to 90% vaxxed, protective immunity would be fine. Very little virus would be actively circulating and most shedding would be minimal because it would be from vaxxed people. But because we are still way behind on vaxxed rates, he thinks a third dose for high risk people is necessary - they need those circulating antibodies to protect them from rampant shedding from unvaxxed people. (I don't believe he said this, but I also think high risk people who do get sick may also receive substandard care right now due to overwhelmed health care system).
He said it's still not clear what the Israel numbers mean, and he wants to wait on peer reviewed data on vaxx rates and hospitalizations. He seemed to be suggesting the numbers are suspect.
He also said it's not conclusive yet, but the data is leaning toward vaccination preventing long covid.18 -
So I realized I had only listened to the first part of the interview with Dr Shane Crotty and finally listened to the rest. A few more interesting bits:
He made a distinction that I hadn't fully understood yet but is prob obvious to someone in this field. This goes back to the point that waning antibodies is perfectly normal and shouldn't be used to cast aspersions at the vaccines. He said circulating antibodies present before the virus arrives is essentially sterilizing immunity. The antibodies will most likely neutralize and dispose of the virus before it is able to infect you. Cellular immunity - T cells - your immune system's ability to produce antibodies after the virus is detected in your body - is protective immunity. You may very well get infected, but your body will attack and dispose of the virus before it can do any (or much) damage. This is what most actively used vaccines do for us.
He suggested that if we were at closer to 90% vaxxed, protective immunity would be fine. Very little virus would be actively circulating and most shedding would be minimal because it would be from vaxxed people. But because we are still way behind on vaxxed rates, he thinks a third dose for high risk people is necessary - they need those circulating antibodies to protect them from rampant shedding from unvaxxed people. (I don't believe he said this, but I also think high risk people who do get sick may also receive substandard care right now due to overwhelmed health care system).
He said it's still not clear what the Israel numbers mean, and he wants to wait on peer reviewed data on vaxx rates and hospitalizations. He seemed to be suggesting the numbers are suspect.
He also said it's not conclusive yet, but the data is leaning toward vaccination preventing long covid.
I enjoyed the summation!
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.12 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.
I actually had forgotten about certain aspects of the vaccine sign up until I read your post. Regarding the three 80+ family members I mentioned earlier, while yes they all wanted the shots, signing them up was awful. For my MIL, my son (software guy) had to write a monitoring software script that would sound an alert when an opening became available. Even with that, he missed the first two alerts. Took about 12 hours after the script was written to get her appointment. For my parents, it was all hands on deck (different states from MIL). Daughter actually landed the appointments for them. For DH and I, we signed up a back door way to land a slot.4 -
My point was, not everyone has the funds to spare on the purchase of computers or smart phones, nor, probably less the connectivity they require. Others in the UK live in remote areas where there can be no connectivity or the connectivity is so poor that its is not worth considering. In an earlier part of my life computers and the like were financially unavailable to me, neither were they of any interest. I have a computer now because its been provided for me and that person does everything technical.
I believe governments all too often miss the significance of ignoring those who have no access nor interest in technology, there are some. By providing definitive scientific information particularly relating to covid, in a form most persons can access, offering the same information in Brail, could go some way to undermine the malign influence of those who are cynical, particularly if it were delivered door to door, there have been occasions where this has happened. I realise there are persons who are poorly educated for many issues extending from multiple deprivations. Some are simply alienated by the concept of community, authority, government, it being better to work together rather than against one another and will never be reached, parts of society can be that dysfunctional, diametrically opposed to anything, fragmented.
Here, (dare I say, uk, small letters because "others" on here are alien) When it was realised there were sections of our population who were hesitant, better known persons from those communities, actors, singers, leaders were more than happy to show they had been vaccinated and the whys and ins and outs of it all. Muslim leaders opened their mosques to support vaccination, explaining how having the vaccine in the day time would not violate Ramadan. Other religions also joined in the information sharing. I realise our vaccination numbers are not perfect but most of the issues are because the pattern of vaccination started with the elderly and descended by age groups leaving the young adults till the last, now older children are having vaccine too.
edited to add- most of our medical practices were actively involved in providing vaccinations to their patients, setting up centres in their populations. We were called by our practice well before the general NHS availability tried to contact us by letter, gosh that is paper again............. Systems are different. I prefer to be invited rather than chase overbooked slots.3 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
I'm not sure, but it's possible the poster meant that naturopaths are always telling people about natural remedies...no drugs...so they shouldn't be surprised if their patients are wary of the recommendation. She's set people up to believe this way, and now she's "frustrated"?7
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