Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Pfizer for teens?
Options
Replies
-
paperpudding wrote: »As always, risk vs benifit
Side effects of vaccine vs likelihood of disease outcomes for yourself and others.
No brainer.
This exactly. I'm in Australia as well and we're in the middle of big protests over mandatory vaccines. I think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to be vaccinated or not. I decided to get the vaccination but it's not my place to force someone else to I can just look after myself. However, if you choose not to get vaccinated then you need to face the consequences.
We have had very few cases compared to the rest of the world so I wonder if opinions will change when people begin to witness deaths and serious illness firsthand.
Can you clarify something here? Vaccine mandates are being interpreted as forcing people to get vaccinated or lose access to jobs/indoor venues/transportation etc., hence the protests. If I'm reading you right, you are anti-mandate, but pro-consequences? Do you mean just that the consequences of being unvaccinated leaves one many times more likely to become seriously ill and die, or does that include the social consequences as well?
As far as the bolded, the answer is a clear no, judging by what's going on in the US in many hard-hit areas.
Hi mph, yes the government has made it clear over the last few weeks that unvaccinated people will not be allowed into many venues, can not gather with as many friends, etc.
The consequences I was talking about though were illness and death. We have low rates of Covid here (we go into lockdown over single digit cases) but after 230+ days in lockdown people are sick of it and rates are climbing. As more and more people witness firsthand the impact I would assume they will opt to get vaccinated but as you pointed out - maybe not, time will tell.
The protests started when the government announced last Friday that vaccines will be mandatory in the construction industry and only gave people a week's notice or they wouldn't be allowed to work. When the workers took to the streets to protest, the state government shut down the whole industry for two weeks. So... they're still protesting. Next they're focusing on mandates for teachers and childcare workers.
As a Queenslander, I got vaccinated as soon as my cohort was allowed. As a parent, my teen got vaccinated as soon as his age group was allowed. There have been very few people who I have spoken to who are anti-vaxxers - one is an employer just up the road and he offered his admin assistant $500AUD to NOT get the vaccine. I hope he is liable if she gets sick. Let me clarify that when I say anti-vaxxers, I am not talking about or meaning those who have health conditions that preclude a vaccine - I mean those whackos who think Bill Gates wants to know what they are thinking and Elon Musk behind a Jewish takeover the world attempt via vaccines and that China created the vaccine to wipe out Australian's so they don't have to pay tarriffs...
I don't agree with you that the non-vaccinated will choose to get vaccinated when they start seeing people sick and dying - quite honestly unless they have a genuine medical issue they should be vaccinated to prevent those bl**dy people getting sick and dying in the first place.
As a former education worker, teachers, cleaners, school staff should all have been vaccinated mandatorily in the first or second cohort.
Honestly this situation makes my blood boil. I think the construction workers are making a big mistake over nothing, the vaccine is safer than getter covid and it is quite self-important to work in a trade that requires you to be around people in their personal spaces and not get vaccinated.
Also, child care workers are already required to have full immunisation history, FTB A & B can be cut off if you don't vaccinate your child to schedule and meat workers are required to be QFever vaccinated. There are lots of places and jobs that already require mandatory vaccination unless medically exempted.5 -
Yes, sheahughes - SA public health employees must have flu vaccine, mmr, hepatitis b, varicella, whooping cough ( or immunity proven by serology where relevant) people in relevant industries need Q fever vaccine, yellow fever vaccine is mandatory for travellers to relevant countries, childhood vaccines to schedule required for family tax benifit and child care rebate and child care admission, employees and visitors to Aged Care facilities must have flu vaccine, employees of Aged Care facilities must have had at least 1covid dose by Sept 17th
Vaccine requirements are nothing new - not sure why construction workers think it shouldn't apply to them
4 -
Apparently National Cabinet agreed that vaccination is voluntary except in high risk cases (according to my local MP) but Vic state government is obviously deviating from this.
I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.3 -
Apparently National Cabinet agreed that vaccination is voluntary except in high risk cases (according to my local MP) but Vic state government is obviously deviating from this.
I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
I heard on ABC News and have seen stats on twitter that the construction workers are required by VIC to be vaxxed because there are more cases in the VIC construction industry than currently in the whole of Australia's aged care sector, so that would imply that it is a high risk case?
I know I wouldn't be paying a tradie to work on my property if they weren't insured and I guess vaccinations are like insurance? The vaccine is minimising the risk to the tradie and those around them? Maybe insurers will start requiring their policy holders to be insured- all it would take is one person who gets sick from an unvaccinated tradie to sue them and I imagine vaccinations would become policy.
I would be interested to see stats on construction workers who have had vaccinations for overseas travel, work in other industries - do tradies who work on health construction sites/building maintenance need to be vaccinated as health workers do? How many construction workers have their kids vaccinated to continue receiving FTB A & B, child care subsidy etc?
Basically, they are making the situation worse. Protesting with violence like they are is only turning people against them. Their own union (CFMEU) seems to support the vaccination requirements. I am not surprised to witness they way the media spoke about the BLM protests compared to the construction workers protests. Shameful.1 -
sheahughes wrote: »Apparently National Cabinet agreed that vaccination is voluntary except in high risk cases (according to my local MP) but Vic state government is obviously deviating from this.
I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
I heard on ABC News and have seen stats on twitter that the construction workers are required by VIC to be vaxxed because there are more cases in the VIC construction industry than currently in the whole of Australia's aged care sector, so that would imply that it is a high risk case?
I know I wouldn't be paying a tradie to work on my property if they weren't insured and I guess vaccinations are like insurance? The vaccine is minimising the risk to the tradie and those around them? Maybe insurers will start requiring their policy holders to be insured- all it would take is one person who gets sick from an unvaccinated tradie to sue them and I imagine vaccinations would become policy.
I would be interested to see stats on construction workers who have had vaccinations for overseas travel, work in other industries - do tradies who work on health construction sites/building maintenance need to be vaccinated as health workers do? How many construction workers have their kids vaccinated to continue receiving FTB A & B, child care subsidy etc?
Basically, they are making the situation worse. Protesting with violence like they are is only turning people against them. Their own union (CFMEU) seems to support the vaccination requirements. I am not surprised to witness they way the media spoke about the BLM protests compared to the construction workers protests. Shameful.
No, actually there were only 300-500 cases connected to construction and this is in a workforce of 300,000 so it's a very low rate. As for healthcare building sites I don't think it would be an issue because they wouldn't be interacting with any healthcare workers. No one is condoning the violence at protests but I don't think we should be so quick to take away freedom of choice.
Overall, I think the feeling in Victoria is overwhelmingly one of frustration. We've now been named the world's most locked down city and I feel like the Premier has actually lost his mind. He's so quick to punish anyone that dares defy him. Parents were gathering at outdoor playgrounds to chat while the kids played (the only places open) and he swiftly shut them down. Then construction workers protested at the Union headquarters - that night he announced a two week immediate shutdown of the entire industry. A lot of those original protesters were ACTUALLY protesting against the mandatory vaccine although they had themselves been vaccinated. I guess everyone is just running out of patience here and now the demonstrations have kind of been hijacked. It's a shame that hundreds of thousands of construction workers are off for two weeks because of this knee jerk government reaction.
*sorry, you can probably sense my frustration after such a long lockdown...2 -
I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
But its ok to demand workers and travellers - ie all those examples I listed in post above- have those vaccines whether they are comfortable with it or not??
Or do you feel same way about child care workers who don't want to get whooping cough vaccine and meat workers who dont want to get Q fever vaccine and Aged Care workers who dont want to get flu vaccine?? - you know, all those other requirements which are nothing new
If someone is unvaccinated and puts others at risk it is everyone's business.8 -
paperpudding wrote: »I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
But its ok to demand workers and travellers - ie all those examples I listed in post above- have those vaccines whether they are comfortable with it or not??
Or do you feel same way about child care workers who don't want to get whooping cough vaccine and meat workers who dont want to get Q fever vaccine and Aged Care workers who dont want to get flu vaccine?? - you know, all those other requirements which are nothing new
If someone is unvaccinated and puts others at risk it is everyone's business.
You know, I'm not going to waste my energy worrying about what others are doing. I can just focus on me. I'm vaccinated, I'm healthy, I'm fit. I'm sure I'm low risk of getting really sick. You say if someone is unvaccinated then they're putting everyone at risk - well what are these people "at risk" doing about their own health?
It reminds me of this clip with a morbidly obese woman riding in a mobility scooter and eating out of a McDonalds bag yelling at a maskless jogger "you're putting my health at risk!!".
5 -
paperpudding wrote: »I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
But its ok to demand workers and travellers - ie all those examples I listed in post above- have those vaccines whether they are comfortable with it or not??
Or do you feel same way about child care workers who don't want to get whooping cough vaccine and meat workers who dont want to get Q fever vaccine and Aged Care workers who dont want to get flu vaccine?? - you know, all those other requirements which are nothing new
If someone is unvaccinated and puts others at risk it is everyone's business.
You know, I'm not going to waste my energy worrying about what others are doing. I can just focus on me. I'm vaccinated, I'm healthy, I'm fit. I'm sure I'm low risk of getting really sick. You say if someone is unvaccinated then they're putting everyone at risk - well what are these people "at risk" doing about their own health?
It reminds me of this clip with a morbidly obese woman riding in a mobility scooter and eating out of a McDonalds bag yelling at a maskless jogger "you're putting my health at risk!!".
Me, I'm healthy, fit, long-time vegetarian, active, fully vaccinated, routinely masked indoors or even in crowded outdoor places . . . also 65, with early COPD (not from a history of smoking, BTW), so probably at pretty substantial risk even from a "mild" breakthrough infection. (A normal Winter cold will often turn into weeks of persistent cough, sometimes bronchitis or pneumonia.)
Among my friends is a healthy weight woman in her 50s, active as she's able to be, with medication regimen for her RA that leaves her immunocompromised (among other health conditions she has for reasons having zero to do with bad lifestyle). She's triply vaccinated, since she was eligible for the 3rd booster as an immuncompromised person, but still very vulnerable, masking everywhere.
Another friend in her 50s is on a chemotherapy regimen for cancer, vaccinated, immunocompromised, cautious . . . vulnerable. Yet another friend is 65 and very healthy, but goes home to a multiply-handicapped late-teenage daughter who's survived 2 cancers so far, one recent enough that she's still somewhat immunocompromised, and because of aspects of her handicaps, she's very vulnerable even with a mild case of Covid (she's vaccinated, as is my friend/her mom; and both are super cautious).
That's not even getting into the children who can't be vaccinated yet, most of whom would have mild cases, but not all . . . and we have no idea what the long-term consequences may be. The "long haul" Covid folks are still a puzzle, and we don't know what lurks in any Covid survivor's future, particularly perhaps a child still developing physically.
That's not even getting into recent cases where people have died unnecessarily from treatable cases of things like pancreatitis, gallstones, heart attack because there are no ICU beds, the ICUs largely full of unvaccinated people with Covid. But maybe those people only had pancreatitis, gallstones, heart attacks because of bad lifestyles, so it's their own fault?
If someone is unvaccinated, yup, they're putting others at risk. And not just obese women in mobility scooters eating at McDonald's, whose complete medical history you're somehow imagining, I guess? Because even the obese scooter ladies deserve to get really sick, maybe die?
OK.13 -
Hi Ann, yep it's complicated and as you say some people can't get vaccinated but there are a lot of people that can also do things to improve their health and free up ICU beds (for as you pointed out pancreatitis, gallstones, heart attack) too and they don't.
I'm unfortunately in the most locked down city in the world so after 236 days in lockdown I am just past worrying about these things. We're getting close to our 80% fully vaccinated rate which means an end to lockdown (apparently) and at that point I don't care what other people are doing, that's their problem - let's just start living again.
2 -
paperpudding wrote: »I agree that the vaccine is probably safer than getting Covid (I've had both doses) but I just don't feel it's my right to demand a construction worker be vaccinated if they're uncomfortable with it. If I'm vaccinated and healthy then it's not my business what they do. It's the tolerance paradox I suppose.
But its ok to demand workers and travellers - ie all those examples I listed in post above- have those vaccines whether they are comfortable with it or not??
Or do you feel same way about child care workers who don't want to get whooping cough vaccine and meat workers who dont want to get Q fever vaccine and Aged Care workers who dont want to get flu vaccine?? - you know, all those other requirements which are nothing new
If someone is unvaccinated and puts others at risk it is everyone's business.
You know, I'm not going to waste my energy worrying about what others are doing. I can just focus on me. I'm vaccinated, I'm healthy, I'm fit. I'm sure I'm low risk of getting really sick. You say if someone is unvaccinated then they're putting everyone at risk - well what are these people "at risk" doing about their own health?
It reminds me of this clip with a morbidly obese woman riding in a mobility scooter and eating out of a McDonalds bag yelling at a maskless jogger "you're putting my health at risk!!".
I see you didn't answer my question about whether you feel the same about the other vaccine scenarios I mentioned
I'm not following your question ( and I don't like to ignore questions,if I get asked one I try to answer it)
People at greater risk include older people, people on immunosuppressants, with chronic illness, medically unable to to be vaccinated, have poor vaccine response.
What do you suggest they should be doing about their own health?
It's great that you are fit and healthy - doesn't take much to realise not everyone else is.
Vaccination isn't just about yourself.6 -
My teen and I were discussing this last night we came to the conclusion that many of the people who are vaccine hesitant in the newer generations are probably resistant because they don't actually see the devastation wrought on communities by viruses like chicken pox, measles, rubella, mumps, small pox and polio.
Many of those 20 years and older were probably vaccinated as per the usual childhood schedule, either through their GP's or through the school vaccination programs, or grew up in a community were so many others were vaccinated that they received the vaunted herd immunity; and so they have grown up in a world where the chicken pox means a week in bed watching tv, same with measles. Mumps and rubella are rarely heard of, polio has been all but eradicated in First World (and many 3rd World) populations. People just don't see pox scars, kids who are deaf due to a virus, adults who have been sterilised due to a virus, people who require iron lungs to survive.
It made us wonder, would we have as many vaccine hesitant people if our earlier vaccines weren't so effective?
Today ABC News Radio said that it was looking increasingly likely that the 80% vax goal for VIC would be achieved and so the lockdown would probably continue. I expect having people "protesting" by spitting on health care workers and causing the closure of vax hubs will delay Freedom Day (as people call it) for quite some time.
I think the Murdoch-Media has a lot to answer for, regarding the riots. They have incited people to violence, and have endangered lives.5 -
Yes sheahughes - you have possibly heard the saying ' vaccination is a victim of its own success' which basically means what you are saying - because vaccines work so well, people don't see the diseases they are protecting against , or at least don't see them at full potency, so wrongly think the vaccine is more of a risk than the disease3
-
Hi Ann, yep it's complicated and as you say some people can't get vaccinated but there are a lot of people that can also do things to improve their health and free up ICU beds (for as you pointed out pancreatitis, gallstones, heart attack) too and they don't.
I'm unfortunately in the most locked down city in the world so after 236 days in lockdown I am just past worrying about these things. We're getting close to our 80% fully vaccinated rate which means an end to lockdown (apparently) and at that point I don't care what other people are doing, that's their problem - let's just start living again.
A lot of people, including myself have genetic issues we were born with for which "doing something about our health" doesn't do anything and we could easily require intensive care. I'm fit and exercise regularly and eat nutritiously, but my issues are genetic and I could require intensive care if anything goes wonky. Also, car accidents and a myriad of other things could land you in intensive care beyond it just being people not taking care of themselves.
Many ICU units across the USA have no beds available because they are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. We aren't at that point in my state as we have a high vaccination rate and have pockets around the state with a lot of unvaxed population...but we are more full than normal and around 96% of COVID patients are unvaxed and they're the one's taking up the beds.8 -
There's something that I haven't heard discussed much, which is the potential long-term effects virus survivors may face (not talking about long covid, but healthy individuals who recover completely). I'm 70, polio was the big-hitter when I was a kid, and while the immediate effects of the virus were horrific there are also long-term issues for survivors that don't show up for 15-40 years (Post-Polio Syndrome). This is what it looks like:
-slowly progressive muscle weakness
-fatigue
-a gradual decrease in the size of muscles (muscle atrophy)
-loss of muscle function
-pain from joint degeneration and increasing skeletal deformities such as curvature of the spine (scoliosis)
PPS is rarely life-threatening, but the symptoms can significantly interfere with an individual's ability to function independently. Respiratory muscle weakness, for instance, can result in trouble with proper breathing, affecting daytime functions and sleep. Weakness in swallowing muscles can result in aspiration of food and liquids into the lungs and lead to pneumonia.
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Fact-Sheets/Post-Polio-Syndrome-Fact-Sheet
I know someone who's quality of life has been gradually declining since she was in her 50's. She had a mild case of polio as a perfectly healthy little girl. A less dire example is getting shingles later in life after having chickenpox as a child. Sure, once you've had the disease you're just as immune as those who were vaccinated, but only those people who were ill and recovered get shingles.
Given how aggressively this virus attacks the lungs and other internal organs I would bet heavily that there will be issues down the road for many of those people who become ill and recover fully. Even if long term studies find that surviving covid confers the same immunity as getting a vaccine, only those who had the virus will be vulnerable to any consequences that may manifest years from now. Young and healthy may be a good indicator of immediate risk of serious illness or death, but I sure wouldn't like to take a chance on diminishing my quality of life 10 or 20 years from now.
edited for grammar7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Hi Ann, yep it's complicated and as you say some people can't get vaccinated but there are a lot of people that can also do things to improve their health and free up ICU beds (for as you pointed out pancreatitis, gallstones, heart attack) too and they don't.
I'm unfortunately in the most locked down city in the world so after 236 days in lockdown I am just past worrying about these things. We're getting close to our 80% fully vaccinated rate which means an end to lockdown (apparently) and at that point I don't care what other people are doing, that's their problem - let's just start living again.
A lot of people, including myself have genetic issues we were born with for which "doing something about our health" doesn't do anything and we could easily require intensive care. I'm fit and exercise regularly and eat nutritiously, but my issues are genetic and I could require intensive care if anything goes wonky. Also, car accidents and a myriad of other things could land you in intensive care beyond it just being people not taking care of themselves.
Many ICU units across the USA have no beds available because they are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. We aren't at that point in my state as we have a high vaccination rate and have pockets around the state with a lot of unvaxed population...but we are more full than normal and around 96% of COVID patients are unvaxed and they're the one's taking up the beds.
And the biggest risk factor is age.
Obviously why countries prioritised older people first for vaccination.
What does poster suggest those people do about that, to help themselves?
I don't think they can make themselves be younger.4 -
If someone is unvaccinated, yup, they're putting others at risk. And not just obese women in mobility scooters eating at McDonald's, whose complete medical history you're somehow imagining, I guess? Because even the obese scooter ladies deserve to get really sick, maybe die?
OK.
While maybe not your intent, this sounds to me like we should treat the unvaxxed as lepers. In fact, getting vaxxed is more about reducing their risk of hospitalization and death, not the spread.
Even the vaccine makers don't claim it reduces spread, they claim it reduces symptomatic illness (less hospitalization and death)3 -
I, my wife and our (adult) son are NOT vaxxed. All of us got Covid early (before tests, before vaxs). All of us live in a densely populated area. All of us have been subjected to dozens of people who tested positive. All of us have NOT gotten sick again. There is something to say about a Natural Immunity! 13x better than the vax according to latest, and largest, review of infection done to date.
Just remember, there are about 37 million people in the USA alone who have tested positive, were never hospitalized and are now carrying a Natural Immunity to Covid.
I am NOT advocating skipping the vax. If you at all feel you need it - GO GET IT! Just be aware that there are 37 million of us that no longer feel we need something that nature already gave us.3 -
Just be aware that there are 37 million of us that no longer feel we need something that nature already gave us.
So, 37 million people got natural Covid and survived? (because obviously those who died aren't getting vaccinated - too late for them)
not all 37 million agree with you about not getting vaccinated.
I have vaccinated several people who have had Covid - since we don't know how well natural immunity protects you, people who have had Covid are recomended to get vaccinated too.6 -
I’m fully vaxxed, currently have breakthrough COVID and will absolutely be first in line for a booster when I qualify just to do anything at all possible to never feel this way again.6
-
KeithBarrows wrote: »I, my wife and our (adult) son are NOT vaxxed. All of us got Covid early (before tests, before vaxs). All of us live in a densely populated area. All of us have been subjected to dozens of people who tested positive. All of us have NOT gotten sick again. There is something to say about a Natural Immunity! 13x better than the vax according to latest, and largest, review of infection done to date.
Just remember, there are about 37 million people in the USA alone who have tested positive, were never hospitalized and are now carrying a Natural Immunity to Covid.
I am NOT advocating skipping the vax. If you at all feel you need it - GO GET IT! Just be aware that there are 37 million of us that no longer feel we need something that nature already gave us.
Give us your "study".
This recent story with CDC numbers published last week disagrees:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/29/health/covid-vaccine-protects-better-previous-infection/index.html
4
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 911 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions