Coronavirus prep
Replies
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
Guess what. Not all of us are American for one. I know many without smart phones especially older people and for one my parents wouldn't even think about using a computer at a library since they never used one in their whole lives. They have phones but would never use the internet etc on it. Just because you can doesn't mean the rest of the world is up to it.
It would be great if you or someone else they knew would get them up to speed on computers/smartphones.
My 92 year old MIL uses her iPhone like a boss.15 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.7 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.
Again, anecdotes about how something worked for one person don't mean that it worked for everyone. Not everybody can.2 -
So I realized I had only listened to the first part of the interview with Dr Shane Crotty and finally listened to the rest. A few more interesting bits:
He made a distinction that I hadn't fully understood yet but is prob obvious to someone in this field. This goes back to the point that waning antibodies is perfectly normal and shouldn't be used to cast aspersions at the vaccines. He said circulating antibodies present before the virus arrives is essentially sterilizing immunity. The antibodies will most likely neutralize and dispose of the virus before it is able to infect you. Cellular immunity - T cells - your immune system's ability to produce antibodies after the virus is detected in your body - is protective immunity. You may very well get infected, but your body will attack and dispose of the virus before it can do any (or much) damage. This is what most actively used vaccines do for us.
He suggested that if we were at closer to 90% vaxxed, protective immunity would be fine. Very little virus would be actively circulating and most shedding would be minimal because it would be from vaxxed people. But because we are still way behind on vaxxed rates, he thinks a third dose for high risk people is necessary - they need those circulating antibodies to protect them from rampant shedding from unvaxxed people. (I don't believe he said this, but I also think high risk people who do get sick may also receive substandard care right now due to overwhelmed health care system).
He said it's still not clear what the Israel numbers mean, and he wants to wait on peer reviewed data on vaxx rates and hospitalizations. He seemed to be suggesting the numbers are suspect.
He also said it's not conclusive yet, but the data is leaning toward vaccination preventing long covid.18 -
So I realized I had only listened to the first part of the interview with Dr Shane Crotty and finally listened to the rest. A few more interesting bits:
He made a distinction that I hadn't fully understood yet but is prob obvious to someone in this field. This goes back to the point that waning antibodies is perfectly normal and shouldn't be used to cast aspersions at the vaccines. He said circulating antibodies present before the virus arrives is essentially sterilizing immunity. The antibodies will most likely neutralize and dispose of the virus before it is able to infect you. Cellular immunity - T cells - your immune system's ability to produce antibodies after the virus is detected in your body - is protective immunity. You may very well get infected, but your body will attack and dispose of the virus before it can do any (or much) damage. This is what most actively used vaccines do for us.
He suggested that if we were at closer to 90% vaxxed, protective immunity would be fine. Very little virus would be actively circulating and most shedding would be minimal because it would be from vaxxed people. But because we are still way behind on vaxxed rates, he thinks a third dose for high risk people is necessary - they need those circulating antibodies to protect them from rampant shedding from unvaxxed people. (I don't believe he said this, but I also think high risk people who do get sick may also receive substandard care right now due to overwhelmed health care system).
He said it's still not clear what the Israel numbers mean, and he wants to wait on peer reviewed data on vaxx rates and hospitalizations. He seemed to be suggesting the numbers are suspect.
He also said it's not conclusive yet, but the data is leaning toward vaccination preventing long covid.
I enjoyed the summation!
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.12 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »I find it disturbing when people make arguments that ignore the fact that some people face challenges that most people don't, or when they say X% have this or can do that, as though that means we should just ignore the 100-X% who don't have this or can't do that.
Again, I don't think a lack of Internet access is in any meaningful way fueling vaccine hesitation or resistance. But one can make that argument about vaccine hesitation or resistance without making assertions that everybody has access to the Internet, or that it doesn't really matter that some people don't.
No one has said everyone has had access to the internet.
Most Americans here have said they had non internet access to info re side effects, which is the topic here. I don't believe anyone has established they couldn't get non internet access to such info, just maybe that some sites assumed people already had such info so provided it request only. The claim we are less "lucky" in that regard than people in the UK is not well sourced.
The idea that Americans in general are disadvantaged in comparison to people in the UK in general re knowledge about potential side effects from the vax and thus are more vax hesitant makes NO SENSE.
Re my city -- not saying anything about the issues where anyone else lives, they can identify issues -- it is known that people in poorer, less white areas are much more vax hesitant and also much more affected by C-19, so since we first had the vax the city has been making huge efforts to try to give people information and convince them to be vaxxed. It hasn't been as successful as one might want, but it has taken into account people not having internet access and has provided them with information. I've mentioned this repeatedly, so find it odd to be accused of claiming that everyone has internet access, etc. Cities know not everyone does and are reacting accordingly. (Mostly less internet access is an age thing, however, and older people seem to be less vax hesitant, although they also have received outreach.)
And, similarly, I mentioned that my city's school district knew on line learning would be an issue since most of the district is low income, so made a huge effort to make iPads available to all. Despite that, a huge number of kids didn't show up for on line learning, which is why getting back to in person learning was more significant for poorer kids (although it was mostly parents of non poor kids who were furious about the schools being closed for as long as they were here, unlike the private and parochial schools and unlike in Europe), but still schools being closed clearly disproportionately hurt poorer kids, who were less likely to have parents who replaced the missed school with at home instruction (as most of my neighbors were able to do).
Yes, early spring while my sister and I were on our computers clicking refresh repeatedly trying to get our mother an appointment, a hospital where she'd had a procedure recently reached out to her and booked her one.
I actually had forgotten about certain aspects of the vaccine sign up until I read your post. Regarding the three 80+ family members I mentioned earlier, while yes they all wanted the shots, signing them up was awful. For my MIL, my son (software guy) had to write a monitoring software script that would sound an alert when an opening became available. Even with that, he missed the first two alerts. Took about 12 hours after the script was written to get her appointment. For my parents, it was all hands on deck (different states from MIL). Daughter actually landed the appointments for them. For DH and I, we signed up a back door way to land a slot.4 -
My point was, not everyone has the funds to spare on the purchase of computers or smart phones, nor, probably less the connectivity they require. Others in the UK live in remote areas where there can be no connectivity or the connectivity is so poor that its is not worth considering. In an earlier part of my life computers and the like were financially unavailable to me, neither were they of any interest. I have a computer now because its been provided for me and that person does everything technical.
I believe governments all too often miss the significance of ignoring those who have no access nor interest in technology, there are some. By providing definitive scientific information particularly relating to covid, in a form most persons can access, offering the same information in Brail, could go some way to undermine the malign influence of those who are cynical, particularly if it were delivered door to door, there have been occasions where this has happened. I realise there are persons who are poorly educated for many issues extending from multiple deprivations. Some are simply alienated by the concept of community, authority, government, it being better to work together rather than against one another and will never be reached, parts of society can be that dysfunctional, diametrically opposed to anything, fragmented.
Here, (dare I say, uk, small letters because "others" on here are alien) When it was realised there were sections of our population who were hesitant, better known persons from those communities, actors, singers, leaders were more than happy to show they had been vaccinated and the whys and ins and outs of it all. Muslim leaders opened their mosques to support vaccination, explaining how having the vaccine in the day time would not violate Ramadan. Other religions also joined in the information sharing. I realise our vaccination numbers are not perfect but most of the issues are because the pattern of vaccination started with the elderly and descended by age groups leaving the young adults till the last, now older children are having vaccine too.
edited to add- most of our medical practices were actively involved in providing vaccinations to their patients, setting up centres in their populations. We were called by our practice well before the general NHS availability tried to contact us by letter, gosh that is paper again............. Systems are different. I prefer to be invited rather than chase overbooked slots.3 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
I'm not sure, but it's possible the poster meant that naturopaths are always telling people about natural remedies...no drugs...so they shouldn't be surprised if their patients are wary of the recommendation. She's set people up to believe this way, and now she's "frustrated"?7 -
My point was, not everyone has the funds to spare on the purchase of computers or smart phones, nor, probably less the connectivity they require. Others in the UK live in remote areas where there can be no connectivity or the connectivity is so poor that its is not worth considering. In an earlier part of my life computers and the like were financially unavailable to me, neither were they of any interest. I have a computer now because its been provided for me and that person does everything technical.
I believe governments all too often miss the significance of ignoring those who have no access nor interest in technology, there are some. By providing definitive scientific information particularly relating to covid, in a form most persons can access, offering the same information in Brail, could go some way to undermine the malign influence of those who are cynical, particularly if it were delivered door to door, there have been occasions where this has happened. I realise there are persons who are poorly educated for many issues extending from multiple deprivations. Some are simply alienated by the concept of community, authority, government, it being better to work together rather than against one another and will never be reached, parts of society can be that dysfunctional, diametrically opposed to anything, fragmented.
Here, (dare I say, uk, small letters because "others" on here are alien) When it was realised there were sections of our population who were hesitant, better known persons from those communities, actors, singers, leaders were more than happy to show they had been vaccinated and the whys and ins and outs of it all. Muslim leaders opened their mosques to support vaccination, explaining how having the vaccine in the day time would not violate Ramadan. Other religions also joined in the information sharing. I realise our vaccination numbers are not perfect but most of the issues are because the pattern of vaccination started with the elderly and descended by age groups leaving the young adults till the last, now older children are having vaccine too.
edited to add- most of our medical practices were actively involved in providing vaccinations to their patients, setting up centres in their populations. We were called by our practice well before the general NHS availability tried to contact us by letter, gosh that is paper again............. Systems are different. I prefer to be invited rather than chase overbooked slots.
And my point is that the information is all over the News, everyday. People are informed. Here, you could call for an appointment if you didn't have internet access. Are you telling us that people can't call for an appointment in England?6 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
I'm not sure, but it's possible the poster meant that naturopaths are always telling people about natural remedies...no drugs...so they shouldn't be surprised if their patients are wary of the recommendation. She's set people up to believe this way, and now she's "frustrated"?
I’m the poster.0 -
Not sure if this link will work or not, but here's to trying:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v2
This is why over emphasizing preprints is dangerous. This Canadian study that claimed a 1 in 1000 rate of myocarditis from mRNA vaccines has been latched onto by anti vaxx propaganda. It was just withdrawn because it cited at the time that 32,000 doses had been given in the study area, when it was actually 800,000. The error was caught in open peer review. One heckuva math error which makes you wonder what else they missed.14 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
I'm not sure, but it's possible the poster meant that naturopaths are always telling people about natural remedies...no drugs...so they shouldn't be surprised if their patients are wary of the recommendation. She's set people up to believe this way, and now she's "frustrated"?
I’m the poster.
I know that. I'm talking about the intentions of the poster who responded to you. I think you misinterpreted the post of theoldguy1. It doesn't matter...not worth an argument when people are just misunderstanding each other.11 -
Not sure if this link will work or not, but here's to trying:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v2
This is why over emphasizing preprints is dangerous. This Canadian study that claimed a 1 in 1000 rate of myocarditis from mRNA vaccines has been latched onto by anti vaxx propaganda. It was just withdrawn because it cited at the time that 32,000 doses had been given in the study area, when it was actually 800,000. The error was caught in open peer review. One heckuva math error which makes you wonder what else they missed.
They must have dug pretty deep to find that study... I'm in Canada and hadn't heard a peep about it. But, sadly, it's unlikely that the anti-vax contingent will broadcast a retraction.2 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
Understand but the naturopath had been telling them for years to avoid drugs. The patients probably had a trust issue when all of a sudden same person telling them drugs are good.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
Coming back to this comment because I just got home from an appointment with a naturopathic doctor. She asked if I have been vaccinated. When I said yes she was relieved because she has to work very hard to convince many of her patients that vaccines are OK.
She’s up to date on the actual science, and is extremely frustrated with people who are refusing to get vaccinated.
And if a kitten NATUROPATHIC doctor is saying the COVID vaccines are safe?
Seriously. Game. Set. Match.
Get your jab.
Naturopaths spend their time telling their patients they don't need drugs. Not surprising their patients balk at taking drugs.
Exactly the opposite of my point.
The naturopath was saying get the vaccine.
That was my point.
Understand but the naturopath had been telling them for years to avoid drugs. The patients probably had a trust issue when all of a sudden same person telling them drugs are good.
Maybe.
I do know people who are prescribed various medications by the doctors in this office. Not just slippery elm bark and ginseng.
Nevertheless, my point was about even the naturopathic doctor saying get the vaccine.
It wasn’t about the patients.
That said? When we were discussing an issue I have, I pointed out that even if I was right about what I think the issue is, it isn’t at this point bad enough to be prescribed any of the usual medications used to treat it. Steroids and other things.
And ya. She was happy to agree with me on that.
So yes. I do believe you are right about the typical patients who go to naturopaths being less likely to immediately demand whatever the newest thing “Big Pharma” has to offer.
But my point wasn’t about the patients. It was about a doctor whose training leads them to emphasize alternative treatments along with allopathic medicine saying that the COVID vaccine is important and that any of their patients who is able to get it should.
8 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
Guess what. Not all of us are American for one. I know many without smart phones especially older people and for one my parents wouldn't even think about using a computer at a library since they never used one in their whole lives. They have phones but would never use the internet etc on it. Just because you can doesn't mean the rest of the world is up to it.
It would be great if you or someone else they knew would get them up to speed on computers/smartphones.
My 92 year old MIL uses her iPhone like a boss.
I agree but it'll never happen. They are not use to any technology at all and we are thousands of Km's away so can't help anyway. Wonderful you MIL is doing great, so is mine.3 -
Not everyone uses the media. I informed someone about to take a longer road trip that there were pressures on the fuel system caused by a shortage of drivers not poor fuel levels and he had not heard. People filling up is happening, so petrol stations are out of fuel till their next delivery arrives.
I observed a stream of traffic going to one supermarket yesterday which was out of fuel till they get a delivery. At a service station near a traffic light controlled crossing cars were backing up to the lights and others were trying to cross lanes. Then at the nearest supermarket it was impossible to get into the carpark for food, for the line of vehicles going to the pumps. Its outrageous. Given a week I would hope those who actually use less fuel will not be filling up again leaving more for more responsible persons.2 -
Not everyone uses the media. I informed someone about to take a longer road trip that there were pressures on the fuel system caused by a shortage of drivers not poor fuel levels and he had not heard. People filling up is happening, so petrol stations are out of fuel till their next delivery arrives.
I observed a stream of traffic going to one supermarket yesterday which was out of fuel till they get a delivery. At a service station near a traffic light controlled crossing cars were backing up to the lights and others were trying to cross lanes. Then at the nearest supermarket it was impossible to get into the carpark for food, for the line of vehicles going to the pumps. Its outrageous. Given a week I would hope those who actually use less fuel will not be filling up again leaving more for more responsible persons.
I get your point about information not always being immediately available for marginalized people. Especially homeless people.
That said, by this point in the pandemic I think even the majority of such people have become aware of most of the information being shared about the vaccines.3 -
Not everyone uses the media. I informed someone about to take a longer road trip that there were pressures on the fuel system caused by a shortage of drivers not poor fuel levels and he had not heard. People filling up is happening, so petrol stations are out of fuel till their next delivery arrives.
I observed a stream of traffic going to one supermarket yesterday which was out of fuel till they get a delivery. At a service station near a traffic light controlled crossing cars were backing up to the lights and others were trying to cross lanes. Then at the nearest supermarket it was impossible to get into the carpark for food, for the line of vehicles going to the pumps. Its outrageous. Given a week I would hope those who actually use less fuel will not be filling up again leaving more for more responsible persons.
???3 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Not everyone uses the media. I informed someone about to take a longer road trip that there were pressures on the fuel system caused by a shortage of drivers not poor fuel levels and he had not heard. People filling up is happening, so petrol stations are out of fuel till their next delivery arrives.
I observed a stream of traffic going to one supermarket yesterday which was out of fuel till they get a delivery. At a service station near a traffic light controlled crossing cars were backing up to the lights and others were trying to cross lanes. Then at the nearest supermarket it was impossible to get into the carpark for food, for the line of vehicles going to the pumps. Its outrageous. Given a week I would hope those who actually use less fuel will not be filling up again leaving more for more responsible persons.
???
In the UK we have a shortage of fuel (petrol/diesel) caused by shortage of long haul lorry drivers. People here are behaving like they did with toilet rolls back at the beginning of the pandemic. Queuing up to squeeze a tiny bit in their tanks to keep them full, causing long tailbacks and blocking roads and entrances. Luckily I already filled up last week and if I’m careful what I have will last me 2-3 weeks when hopefully people have calmed down.7 -
We live in rural Minnesota. Less than 50 miles from the center of a major metropolitan area. We have very poor internet access. We both have smartphones, but rarely have more than two bars. Times everyday where there is no service. We also have a PC with an ellipsis jetpack for internet service, and the service with the PC is mostly, dependable. There are two cell phone towers within 10 miles. One 5 miles east of us, one 5 miles west. Very hilly terrain, with a lot of woods. Poor television and radio signals at times also.
Financial reasons limiting access to information can be difficult, but where there is will, there’s a way, and can be done, for most. The point is, the information is available, access may be more difficult for some, but that’s true for many things.
We had no trouble signing up for the vaccine, at the pharmacy we use. We received an email from them that they were giving the vaccine and we signed up for it. We got scheduled within a short time (less than a week). We received handouts with both shots. Most people that I know have been vaccinated. One friend has not. Her excuse, her direct text message 4/27, in response to a few of us finally being able to get together for dinner:
“If you are vaccinated, you should be safe from covid. I did a lot of research, I choose not to put that concoction into my body. I guess time will tell.”
There’s no convincing some.
12 -
So a friend of mine's son went to Hawaii for a party with his friends (he's 30 something) a week or so ago. Almost everyone at the party was vaccinated. He told her his friends who had Pfizer got sick with covid, and everyone who had Moderna did not. I believe he was vaccinated back in March/April time frame with Pfizer. He was ill but did not need to be hospitalized. He did not say anything about unvaccinated kids.
My unscientific personal knowledge about breakthroughs have all been Pfizer, and I was leaning towards that more were vaccinated with it as a reason. Maybe not. So far personal experience I have not heard of a breakthrough on the J&J or Moderna.1 -
greyhoundwalker wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Not everyone uses the media. I informed someone about to take a longer road trip that there were pressures on the fuel system caused by a shortage of drivers not poor fuel levels and he had not heard. People filling up is happening, so petrol stations are out of fuel till their next delivery arrives.
I observed a stream of traffic going to one supermarket yesterday which was out of fuel till they get a delivery. At a service station near a traffic light controlled crossing cars were backing up to the lights and others were trying to cross lanes. Then at the nearest supermarket it was impossible to get into the carpark for food, for the line of vehicles going to the pumps. Its outrageous. Given a week I would hope those who actually use less fuel will not be filling up again leaving more for more responsible persons.
???
In the UK we have a shortage of fuel (petrol/diesel) caused by shortage of long haul lorry drivers. People here are behaving like they did with toilet rolls back at the beginning of the pandemic. Queuing up to squeeze a tiny bit in their tanks to keep them full, causing long tailbacks and blocking roads and entrances. Luckily I already filled up last week and if I’m careful what I have will last me 2-3 weeks when hopefully people have calmed down.
Yup--here in Italy your fuel shortages are all over the News. My ???? was because I had asked the poster if you could call for an appointment for your COVID vaccination in England and her response was ......petrol shortages, and I don't understand what that has to do with this COVID thread. I was hoping for an explanation.5 -
Adding a comment about internet and drug reaction information. It relates to my 84 year old mother. She has been dealing with pain and anxiety issues and her PCP prescribed her a med which is known to help with both. I attended the appointment so am fully aware of discussion. PCP put her on very low initial dose to monitor adverse reactions and see if beneficial. At one month, mom had followup telemedicine, which I attended again. At this time, my mother started talking about all the terrible side effects she read about. PCP asked about how she was feeling and verified no side effects were happening, and only positive improvements were evident. PCP explained this to my mom and pointed out that she was not having adverse affects and that the reason for the initial low dose was so that any adverse effects, if any, would be smaller. Roughly a week ago (almost 3 months on the medication), my mother talked to me again about all the terrible side effects she read about, and how she needs to talk to the doctor about it. I told her that she already had and explained the whole conversation again. As an outsider looking in, her shaking has stopped and her normal personality is returning but all she can think about is the list of possible side effects she read about on the internet.15
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I heard this morning an Italian lady, living locally to a family member, who lost her husband to covid. They had seen all the on line disinformation about the problems with vaccines and hesitated. She had covid, gave it to her husband who died from it! She is left with two children to care for. Had her medical practice time and support to realised the potential language barrier, they are supposed to provide translation services where necessary, and this family had been given true scientific information, may be this tragic situation could have been averted. I met her the other day not realising her situation, I admired their dog, It hurts, we let them down by not ensuring they had the best information available.
As for our lack of delivery drivers and distance drivers, some will have died from covid, we've had a high death tole. There are official figures showing there are some many thousands of HGV licences which are now inactive. One can assume the people they relate to, no longer like the conditions they are supposed to live/work with, or their priorities have changed because of covid, some will have decided there are better jobs than driving all day and being away from home for days on end. So there could be two ways Covid has changed availability. Many of the European delivery and long distance drivers this country relied on after 40 years membership of the EU have left the country. Some who chose to remain here, have now returned to their homes, firstly some will have gone because of Brexit, remember that, making them feeling alienated and others realising the extent of the pandemic decided to go home to support their wider families in Europe. I think its a situation best described as a perfect storm. This effects food deliveries/distribution too, along with other food chain issues. I passed two filling stations this morning, both had fuel and no queues. We are in a bit of a pickle for the above reasons.
I mentioned the delivery difficulties in passing, as a case in point, someone not using the media to keep up to date with any situation. Sorry, I was not as explicit as I might have been.6 -
Adding a comment about internet and drug reaction information. It relates to my 84 year old mother. She has been dealing with pain and anxiety issues and her PCP prescribed her a med which is known to help with both. I attended the appointment so am fully aware of discussion. PCP put her on very low initial dose to monitor adverse reactions and see if beneficial. At one month, mom had followup telemedicine, which I attended again. At this time, my mother started talking about all the terrible side effects she read about. PCP asked about how she was feeling and verified no side effects were happening, and only positive improvements were evident. PCP explained this to my mom and pointed out that she was not having adverse affects and that the reason for the initial low dose was so that any adverse effects, if any, would be smaller. Roughly a week ago (almost 3 months on the medication), my mother talked to me again about all the terrible side effects she read about, and how she needs to talk to the doctor about it. I told her that she already had and explained the whole conversation again. As an outsider looking in, her shaking has stopped and her normal personality is returning but all she can think about is the list of possible side effects she read about on the internet.
@SModa61: does this happen to be Cymbalta? I've been prescribed this recently, am waiting for it to arrive in the mail, and meanwhile am wondering about all the side effects I've read about
I haven't been able to take the last two anti-anxiety meds so my doctor is starting me on a very low dose - 20 mg. And, funny story, my soon to be 84 yo mother has recently been switched to Cymbalta for pain (and depression) and she is getting 30 mg.3 -
SummerSkier wrote: »So a friend of mine's son went to Hawaii for a party with his friends (he's 30 something) a week or so ago. Almost everyone at the party was vaccinated. He told her his friends who had Pfizer got sick with covid, and everyone who had Moderna did not. I believe he was vaccinated back in March/April time frame with Pfizer. He was ill but did not need to be hospitalized. He did not say anything about unvaccinated kids.
My unscientific personal knowledge about breakthroughs have all been Pfizer, and I was leaning towards that more were vaccinated with it as a reason. Maybe not. So far personal experience I have not heard of a breakthrough on the J&J or Moderna.
Here's another anecdote - when my partner's brother's 2 year old unvaccinated grandson got everyone sick, between all of them, they had taken all three brands available - Pfizer, J&J and Moderna.
ETA: one vaccinated person described it as like the flu (plus vertigo) and another as like a cold. No one needed to be hospitalized.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »So a friend of mine's son went to Hawaii for a party with his friends (he's 30 something) a week or so ago. Almost everyone at the party was vaccinated. He told her his friends who had Pfizer got sick with covid, and everyone who had Moderna did not. I believe he was vaccinated back in March/April time frame with Pfizer. He was ill but did not need to be hospitalized. He did not say anything about unvaccinated kids.
My unscientific personal knowledge about breakthroughs have all been Pfizer, and I was leaning towards that more were vaccinated with it as a reason. Maybe not. So far personal experience I have not heard of a breakthrough on the J&J or Moderna.
Here's another anecdote - when my partner's brother's 2 year old unvaccinated grandson got everyone sick, between all of them, they had taken all three brands available - Pfizer, J&J and Moderna.
Was anyone hospitalized?
The cases that we have here are mostly Delta, but hospitalizations and intensive care for COVID are way down.0
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