December 2021 Monthly Running Challenge

skippygirlsmom · December 2021

12/1 – 7.02
12/2 – 5.02
12/3 – 5.02
12/5 – 5.02
12/7 – 7.02
12/9 – 7.04
12/12 - 5.07
12/13 - 5.08
12/14 - 5.02
12/16 - 8.02
12/17 - 5.02
12/19 – 3.03
12/20 – 4.04
12/22 – 6.02

77.44 of 110 miles

@katharmonic as much as I love to run I do think there needs to be a carrot out there that you keep aiming for.

Congrats @kgirlhart that is a great accomplishment!!

We’d love to have you @shanaber hope you start feeling better, that doesn’t sound like a pleasant feeling

@polskagirl01 thanks for the pod cast recommendation. Such pretty pictures, even though I hate snow!

@summerSkier that is really weird. I know Strava tracks things different if you choose different modes like race vs workout. Great job reaching goal with so much time left in the month.

Got an email from the head dude of our organization today. If you agree not to take any vacation time from Monday until 29 Jan they will give you a $3,000 bonus. Ah sign me up! I’m so busy at work I don’t have time for any days off so I’m all about it. They know the revenue drops this time of year and they are trying to get as much money in as they can the last period. My friend said how about just give us the $3,000 if you have it to burn, truth there.

martaindale · December 2021

polskagirl01 wrote: »

Listened to a podcast that could start some interesting discussion here! The link I copied while running, before the podcast disappeared from my app, didn't work, so just go into your podcast player and find Trail Runner Nation episode 545 "Survey results are in! Mental health and running". I felt like this research was missing some major factors that affect the issue, but it's a great starting point. If anyone listens, share your thoughts!

I listened to the podcast then tracked down the thesis publication and read it. At the beginning of the podcast, the author and host discussed the jokes ultra endurance athletes make about having to be crazy to do this or how their exercise is therapy, etc. I found that interesting because I have definitely heard some of those same jokes. Both she and the host talked about having a very frank discussion but I could tell they were both really trying to tread lightly in some places so as not to upset listeners. They know their audience, and people don’t always like being confronted with problems in their sport.
She didn’t go into a ton of detail on this but on reading the article, there was additional breakdown of the test population that really showed some stark differences in the extremes of ultra endurance training versus the average US population. The table below shows the percentage of respondents who were diagnosed with mental disorder prior to the study period stratified by hours of training per week. U 10 is under 10 hrs, 10- 20 hours, more than 20 hrs, all participants in the study, and last published data of USA population.

Table 1 Prior Diagnosis of Mental Disorder
U 10 28.3%
10-20. 38.9%
>20. 56.7%
All participants 37%
USA. 20%

This trend of increasing prevalence was seen when broken down into individual diagnoses as well, including depression, anxiety, and several different types of eating disorders. Another thing I found interesting was that the female participants self-reported diagnoses at basically the same rate as the assessed risk based on the questionnaires but men were way off. Both men and women had a risk of about 46%, women reported diagnoses 46.9% and men 26.5%. That’s a huge disparity and really underlines how, at least in the US, men don’t seek mental health help as often as women and probably ignore some symptoms.

Also included superficially in the podcast and in a bit more detail in the article was risk of suicide or self-harm. The > 20 hour group responded with a non-zero number of thoughts of suicide or self harm in the last 2 weeks in 30%!! By comparison, the other 2 groups were in the 11-12% range.

The chicken vs egg conversation in the podcast was touched on some in the article as well. I thought the discussion was enlightening about this. Especially with substance abuse, how much exercise addiction is being substituted for other addictions? And given the differences in so many disorders in the >20 hour a week group, you have to wonder whether that level of training is maybe not good for people’s mental health or are people with very high rates of mental illness just attracted to the ultra endurance sports? One other thing the author mentioned in the article that I didn’t recall from the podcast was whether ultra endurance sport training allowed people with certain disorders like exercise bulimia, binge eating disorders, and other disordered eating to hide in plain sight. Were athletes with disordered eating using ultra endurance training as a cover to allow them to “carb-load” not binge, train for a race not exercise bulimia, etc. Definitely something to consider.

quilteryoyo · December 2021

Thanks everyone for the thoughts about my back and the explanation of the diagnosis @martaindale . I wish I could get a digital copy of my x-ray to share, but haven't figured that out yet. The steroids seem to be working, as my back has been good for the last few days. I did stop taking the muscle relaxer and will use it on an as needed basis only. The ortho finally called me back and verified that would be okay.
The days that I had mega steroid dosages, I couldn't sleep. Didn't sleep at all on Saturday night. Woke up with red eyes, but figured that was expected. Slept a couple of hours on Sunday night and then Monday woke up with more kunk than usual in my eyes. Turns out, I have pink eye. I had a telemid appointment with my doctor and got eye drops to use. That is helping and I'm not supposed to be contagious anymore.

My heat pump went out again last night. I'm fortunate to have gotten an appointment to have it looked at tomorrow after 2 pm. That way I don't have to change my plans too much to get it fixed.

I have read, liked, and hugged the last several days, but haven't had the time to comment much. There were a couple I wanted to, so am going back to scan and see if I can find them.

@SummerSkier Congrats on getting your RTY miles in. That's awesome!

@shanaber I hope you can figure out what is going on with you. Do you know what caused it the last time?

Love your running group picture @Teresa502 !

@polskagirl01 I, too, love that you are the only one splashing through the puddles in your race.

WhatMeRunning · December 2021

Re: podcast topic
I think anything done in excess or to extremes is either due to incredibly special ability, or for reasons of a mental nature. Otherwise it makes no sense to go to such excess/extremes. Whether it is an unhealthy or not is debatable and varies from person to person. If you do not possess the special abilities to be pushed through a marathon by others because you have such special abilities, what exactly are you there to prove? Surely it's mental more than physical. That does not imply negativity, but in some cases it may be an overall negative thing for that individual, despite their belief.

Just my thoughts.

I knew/know what my experiences were. I'm proud of running to excess. Not so proud of other excesses.

quilteryoyo · December 2021

Nice picture @katharmonic . I love the pictures where you are "flying." That's why I have the profile picture I do. It's the only one I have with both feet off the ground at the same time. LOL

I'm glad to hear that @Avidkeo and @ContraryMaryMary are okay and active.

@skippygirlsmom I am going to try to see the sports ortho that @Teresa502 is familiar with. I just haven't had the time to call yet. Skips boyfriend sounds so sweet and I know she was thrilled. I wouldn't have to think twice about signing up for the extra $3,000 either, if I were you. I can see how some can't, if they have travel plans. That's a nice Christmas/New Year's bonus!

Sounds like you are doing great @Scott6255 with your HR staying that low even with going faster than you intended.

@kgirlhart Congratulations on your RTY mileage! That's awesome. I would be interested in joining a RTY team for 2022. Not sure how much I'll be running, but would like to have something to work toward. Also, I still haven't entered my running on the Run The World site. I hope to be able to do that while daycare is closed for a few days. It won't get us there, I'm sure, but we'll be closer.

Love the snowy pictures @polskagirl01 . What a "cool" place to run.

kgirlhart · December 2021

December Goal: 100 Miles

12/1: 5.11 miles
12/2: 5.11 miles
12/5: 10.03 miles
12/7: 5.31 miles
12/8: 5.52 miles
12/9: 5.51 miles
12/11: 5.26 miles
12/12: 6.25 miles
12/14: 5.10 miles
12/15: 5.31 miles
12/16: 6.04 miles
12/19: 9.35 miles
12/21: 5.11 miles
12/22: 5.10 miles

84.11/100 miles completed for December

Another 5 miles this morning. It was cold, but clear and pretty. There were lots of stars and the moon was really bright. But then when I left the house to go to work it was really foggy. I was glad it was nice for my run.

@shanaber and @quilteryoyo It will be great to have you on the team. I believe 5 is the limit, so if more are interested in doing it we can set up additional teams.

2021 Races:
4/24/21: Run For The Children - 10K PR 55:46:28.
11/6/21: Run For 57th AHC Half Marathon - PR 2:07:11 and 1st in AG
12/11/21: Wags and Wiskers 5K- 1st in AG, 2nd Overall Female

rheddmobile · December 2021

Finally got in to see the cardiologist - he’s of the opinion that I had an episode of Atrioventricular nodal reentry tachycardia, which basically happens when you have an extra electrical pathway in your heart and it gets stuck in a loop. It can be triggered by stress, lack of sleep, the usual things. He advised beta blockers but from what I’m reading medication is an overreaction for just a single episode, and although scary and uncomfortable it’s not actually dangerous, so at the moment I’m planning (with his permission) to keep an eye on it and see if it keeps happening. I did have a stress filled interaction with my mom right before running that day. I’ve also got an echo scheduled (finally!) to make sure there’s nothing else going on, since I am a diabetic which raises my heart risk, and I also have a brother who had a heart attack young. He also thinks the abnormalities in my ekg from the ER are consistent with supraventricular tachycardia of which avnrt is a type, and the ekg was normal today. Nice to finally see a real live doctor with experience. This guy is primarily a heart transplant surgeon so he’s a little quick to go for the nuclear option - he suggested that if beta blockers didn’t work we could go for ablation which REALLY is jumping the gun for a single episode - but he’s very experienced and knows his way around an ekg.

He also complimented the heck out of me for being a runner who has lost significant weight and said that the fact that I have a huge cardio reserve and was able to tolerate having a 209 heart rate without feeling bad is a good sign that nothing else is seriously wrong.

Anyway, echo is scheduled for a week from now, but in the meantime I can relax and not worry so much. Looking forward to a run except! Now I have my husband’s stupid cold! We keep taking Covid tests and they keep coming up negative (although the home test can give a false negative, it’s pretty accurate if you take them over several days while symptomatic) so it appears to be the king daddy of all colds. At the moment mine is still all above the neck. My husband, however, is still wheezy and can’t run without getting winded.

Since posting last I had a very nice night trail run at the park where my husband walked and I ran out and backs from him, for a total of about 3 miles running and 5 total. Moon was full that night and it was warm and really beautiful. I don’t usually get to run trails at night, and never alone, so it was fun. Heard great horned owls and ran right up on a deer which skedaddled. Next night did a bunch of lifting, night after that was too demoralized to feel like running my neighborhood in freezing temperatures when my husband still can’t run, so I did stationary bike by heart rate since the time and distance display on my bike has gone out. Aiming for 15 minutes easy and 30 minutes moderate to mimic a 3 mile easy run with a warm up and cool down walk, and came pretty close to that.

I haven’t really been reading and commenting recently because it’s hard to be happy for everyone when I can’t really run (I’m sure anyone who has had running injuries can understand!) but I plan to go back and catch up. I did dig @polskagirl01 plowing straight through the mud instead of going tippy tippy along the edge trying and failing to stay clean!

polskagirl01 · December 2021

@rheddmobile that sounds like good news, and I'm glad you've got some answers and the echo scheduled. Hopefully if the cold is all above the neck, it isn't covid. Although on the other hand, it seems there's a lot of variety (even no symptoms for some people) in what can be covid, so no guarantee. It's weird. I just hope you feel better quickly!

Re: podcast. @martaindale great insight and thank you for sharing the additional info from the article. Lots to think about. Also YES to everything @WhatMeRunning said.

Some of my thoughts, spoiler 'cause it's long:

While listening, I wanted to yell at them that the "running as therapy" line can mean so many things other than just "I am dependant on only running to make me feel better". For so many of us, it is only one piece of the puzzle, and that changes the entire picture drastically. You can't just compare it to swapping addictions, when you're trading a destructive behavior for a healthy one. Overdo it and yes, like literally anything in life, it's not going to be good for you. Medications for mental health conditions can become an unhealthy addiction. You could develop an unhealthy dependency on therapy itself. That doesn't make those things bad. In fact, all three - medication, therapy, and/or physical activity - can be potentially life-changing (in a good way!!!) for someone struggling with things like anxiety, depression, etc.

This particular study can't really determine which came first, or whether the running was beneficial or harmful to the mental health conditions. But I do think a good outcome is to get people talking about these things. This especially can be a good place for us to support each other.

One example from my experience has been symptoms of seasonal depression. In years past, the hours of darkness, cold, and furnace stink everywhere just seemed to close in on me with overwhelming despair, even after I was a runner. I remember thinking "this can't be normal". I started looking into SAD, compared notes with some close friends, and found lists of strategies on medical websites to try. This included a talk with a therapist friend. Little by little I started adding to my tool box. Air purifiers in the house. Wow. SAD light, yes. Morning exercise was already a thing. Allergist took me off of Singulair (thank you!), endocrinologist was monitoring things and recommended 2 Brazil nuts a day (or I could try to find an expensive supplement to get the same amount of selenium, my choice LOL) and Vitamin D during the winter months. I've added the cold water thing now. I just realized 2 days ago it was the solstice already and I wasn't even counting down the days. Granted I slept through most of November, and I haven't mentioned the whole spiritual side of things which for me is a big deal. But Hmm. If "our people" in this community have more mental health stuff going on (for whatever reason, cause/effect, etc) - and it appears we do - let's get talking, because running is only going to take us so far!

I still need to do my December HM run. Thought I'd do it today, but then remembered I had a music class and appointment. Class got canceled after I was showered and dressed, so I sat here and wrote this instead. I'm guessing it's going to be mostly a rest day and try again tomorrow, and I'm ok with that.

My kitchen is overwhelmed with Christmas cookies, and I'm not done yet.

polskagirl01 · December 2021

rheddmobile wrote: »

I did dig @polskagirl01 plowing straight through the mud instead of going tippy tippy along the edge trying and failing to stay clean!

Haha, I was actually trying to get dirty. Wasn't working. It just wasn't the right kind of mud. 🤷‍♀️ But I may write to the photographer and see if I can buy the picture in a higher quality, I like it that much.

martaindale · December 2021

@polskagirl01 Thanks for sharing your experience with SAD and running. I think when listening to the podcast, some of the nuance of the study is lost. That was one of the reasons I included that one table and some of the discussion. Overall the ultra endurance athlete who responded to the study showed a greater prevalence of mental illness, but you really see the increase in the ultra ultra endurance athlete, i.e. the greater than 20 hours of training a week group. Those numbers will definitely drag the average up significantly. I think what @WhatMeRunning said about the extremes of anything being potentially bad really applies to the study. While the majority of us may not identify as ultra endurance athletes, the majority fall in the category of less than 10 hours a week of training if we were looking to put ourselves into this data. The numbers for that group were Higher than the national average, but to a much less dramatic degree.
One of the other limitations that the article didn’t specifically mention is that it only included people from the US. I think this is a limitation because the healthcare system, and particularly the mental health care system in the US is severely lacking. Even for people who are insured, their insurance minimally covers things like therapy if it covers it at all. There is also a lot of stigma surrounding seeking out health for mental health issues. I understand why the authors chose a US based population, given that they live and study in the US, and have access to the population more easily. Also, I think there’s a high likelihood that the sheer numbers of participants would be much higher when pulling from a US population . However, I think it would be interesting to compare the results of these questionnaires done on ultra endurance athletes from other countries where the approach to mental health and Access to mental health professionals may be a little bit different.
Full disclosure, one of the tasks I do for my job is reviewing journal articles that have been submitted for publication. Doing that really requires you to remove your own opinions from the material within the article and judge it objectively. I think one of the reasons that the author and the podcast host were kind of treading carefully over some of the topics was in anticipation of listeners have reactions like yours. Nobody wants to hear that something they’re doing may not actually be good for them. I don’t think that that’s what this article is trying to say about running in general. In fact, if you read the article they talk about studies that have been performed on various athletes over the years that look at mental health and physical health benefits, but the author notes a real dearth of research in the ultra endurance athlete, which is a very niche part of the population that is gaining in popularity but it’s still very small.
Exercise is certainly helpful as stress relief and has been proven to help with symptoms of some mental health disorders, including SAD. This article really investigates what it means to take that to the extreme and is in no way saying that everyone who runs is mentally ill.

Tramboman · December 2021

"Keepin' it sleasy!"

12-1 7k slow
12-2 7k slow
12-3 7k slow
12-4 7k sleasy
12-5 7k slow
12-6 7k slow
12-7 7k slow
12-8 7k sleasy
12-9 7k slow
12-10 7k sleasy
12-11 7k slow
12-12 7k sleasy
12-13 7k slow
12-14 7k sleasy
12-15 7k slow
12-16 7k easy
12-17 7k sleasy
12-18 5k treadmill
12-19 7k slow
12-20 7k slow
12-21 7k slow
12-22 7k slow
12-23 4k slow

Don't Rest December Total: 156k
Don't Rest December Goal: 180k

Partly cloudy, upper 20s F, and a touch of a breeze from the south. Knee was still cranky, so I did WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE YESTERDAY and only ran 4k. Saw the same wooly bear caterpillar in the same place so the only thing prognosticated will be no moth in the spring.
Interesting MH discussion -- especially regarding the men appearing to be in denial or unable to recognize their issues (not that I have any, of course [see all caps above]).
And it was good to hear some positive things as well.

When you pop in here claiming your December 2021 mileage, what accomplishments will you have made?

PUT THE FUN BACK IN THE RUN!
Return to a good running weight of 175 lbs (second attempt)

2021 Races:

6/26 Direction Up 5k, Solon, OH 31:48 chip; 31:59 Garmin; 53d overall; 2d male 65 and over
7/17 Run of the Ox 5k, Mantua, OH 32:19 Garmin; 44th overall; 3d place male 60 and over

quilteryoyo · December 2021

Thanks @kgirlhart . Just let me know how to sign up.

@rheddmobile Yeah. So happy you got good news from the cardiologist. I hope it was a one time episode and doesn't happen again. I'm sure that was a big relief for you. Now, to get rid of that stupid cold. I hope you and your DH feel better soon!

noblsheep · December 2021

1204-3km 27:05 aHR 144
1206-3.24km 30:00 aHR 146
1213-2.53km 21:54 aHR 148
1218-3.2km 30:00 aHR 157
1222-4km 37:40 aHR 156

This run was better. Finally felt like I was actually training, instead of plodding along until I was tired.

@rheddmobile Hope you and DH feel better soon! That cold sounds horrid.
@polskagirl01 I love Christmas cookies! It's just going to be me and fat cat doing Christmas this year so I was thinking no celebrating, but now I really want cookies!
@quilteryoyo Sending some good vibes your way and hoping things get better.

WhatMeRunning · December 2021

I feel that many (most?) who have to struggle with mental health wind up in a longer battle than they probably anticipated going in, with many parallels to those who struggle with physical health. It may not be a short term "fix it" plan that gets you "normal" again and then things just move along perfectly after that with no concerns whatsoever for the rest of your life (I'll just stay thin magically). It's something you have to keep up with, and may find cycles of progress and setbacks. Approaches may change over time, be it with medication or going all natural, or something in between. I would suggest that if someone finds themselves focusing on both mental and physical health, they should ideally do things that help with both, so the concept of running clearly is not "bad" as it has physical benefits (outside of the occasional injuries, of course). As for swapping addictions, that's how you treat addiction. You begin by replacing it with other, better behaviors (AA for example). For small percentage, they may even reach the elusive "13th step" and remove their dependency on AA (so long as it's not just replaced by something else, right?). So I'm really not too clear that there is an answer to be found by pointing out to someone that they are simply replacing their "bad" behaviors with "better" ones. That's probably part of the reason for treading so gingerly, there's no good answer to be found there.

martaindale · December 2021

December Totals: 77.1/100 miles

12/3: 3.1 miles
12/4: 6 miles
12/6: 4.6 miles
12/7: 4.7 miles
12/8: 3 miles
12/9: 5.1 miles
12/11: 9 miles
12/12: 4.5 miles
12/13: 5.1 miles
12/15: 3.1 miles
12/16: 5.6 miles
12/19: 10 miles
12/20: 5.1 miles
12/22: 3.1 miles
12/23: 5.1 miles

Speed work this morning: 9 x 400m repeats at 5k pace. After the first couple were a bit faster than target pace I decided to see if I could maintain that for the whole workout and I did! The last couple were getting harder but it was never max effort by any means, so probably closer the the pace I should actually be targeting. It’s been a while since I raced a 5k so I wonder if maybe I need to do that at some point and see where I really am pace wise. It’s starting to warm up, so mid 50’s this morning. Still nice running weather. The neighborhood was a bit busier this morning too. It’s amazing how quickly the foot traffic drops off when it gets cold.

@rheddmobile I’m so happy for you! It sounds like reassuring news on the cardiac front. Hope you guys bounce back from the cold soon.
@polskagirl01 Today I am starting on cookie/cake baking as well. All counter surfaces are about to become cooling racks!
@WhatMeRunning Very valid point about swapping addictions and the cycles we all go through in dealing with both physical and mental issues. This challenge group has in common our history with MFP and, I am assuming, some type of weight loss journey. MFP is a great example of how something can be a useful way to treat an issue (logging and tracking data to see the result of weight loss) or be a tool to enable a mental health problem (like eating disorders). I have seen posts in the forums on more than one occasion where the person clearly was struggling with disordered eating and MFP was their positive reinforcement tool. By its very design, you get praise for eating less than your calorie goal (which is sometimes set way too low) and for losing weight, even if you are eating way less than you need to survive and your weight is dangerously low. But, most users aren’t using it that way. Rather, they use it to hold themselves accountable and help build a better relationship with food. I think this relates well to the article. The purpose of studies like this isn’t to give an answer to a problem, but rather to shine a light on things that haven’t been evaluated and see if there is a need for additional research. Especially when dealing with MH, things just aren’t black and white\. Awareness is of significant importance, and the author may well bring some awareness to people in her own athletic community and open doors for tough conversations in a group where people are quietly suffering and using sport in a maladaptive way. That alone wold make this study a success. Hey, we’re talking about it!
@Tramboman I also found the disparity between risk and diagnosis in men versus women very interesting especially given how much higher suicide attempts and successes tend to be in men. Definitely an area for improvement!

quilteryoyo · December 2021

Thanks @noblsheep ! Glad you had a nice run.

@martaindale Congratulations on such a great run!

kgirlhart · December 2021

December Goal: 100 Miles

12/1: 5.11 miles
12/2: 5.11 miles
12/5: 10.03 miles
12/7: 5.31 miles
12/8: 5.52 miles
12/9: 5.51 miles
12/11: 5.26 miles
12/12: 6.25 miles
12/14: 5.10 miles
12/15: 5.31 miles
12/16: 6.04 miles
12/19: 9.35 miles
12/21: 5.11 miles
12/22: 5.10 miles
12/23: 6.06 miles

90.17/100 miles completed for December

I ran 6 miles this morning. It was an uneventful run, but nice. I'm getting close to my December goal.

@rheddmobile I am so glad you finally were able to see a cardiologist and that the news was good. I hope you and your husband feel better soon.

@shanaber, @skippygirlsmom and @quilteryoyo do y'all want me to set up a team for RTY ? I am not good at coming up with names.

2021 Races:
4/24/21: Run For The Children - 10K PR 55:46:28.
11/6/21: Run For 57th AHC Half Marathon - PR 2:07:11 and 1st in AG
12/11/21: Wags and Wiskers 5K- 1st in AG, 2nd Overall Female

quilteryoyo · December 2021

That would be great @kgirlhart . I'm not good with names either, but in honor of @Tramboman maybe we could be "Keeping it Sleasy."

Teresa502 · December 2021

December 1 – 5.16 miles
December 4 – 10.05 miles
December 5 – 5.13 miles
December 6 – 5.30 miles
December 7 – 2 miles (treadmill)
December 8 – 5.1 miles
December 9 – 5.11 miles
December 11 -10.13 miles
December 12 – 5.01 miles
December 13 – 4.16 miles
December 15 – 5.14 miles
December 18 – 6.30 miles
December 19 – 3.51 miles
December 20 – 5.15 miles
December 21 – 3.42 miles
December 23 – 7.06 miles

87.74/100 miles completed

I ran 7 miles today. I had some errands to do this morning so I didn’t run until 11:00 am when it was sunny and 47F.

Glad you finally were able to speak to a knowledgeable healthcare professional @rheddmobile and get some advice.

Congrats on completing your RTY goal @kgirlhart!

Thanks for the podcast reference @polskagirl01 and the insightful information that you researched and shared @martaindale. The podcast made several references to eating disorders among ultra runners being a well known fact. I never realized this. I always just thought they were well disciplined with their diet to enhance their performance, help their pace, etc. and after expending so many calories they were refueling rather than binging. I was really surprised at the eating disorder rate among the male ultra athletes. I guess I just stereotypically think of that as being a problem for females. I’m not sure how “mental illness” was defined for her study. One of the guys made a good point that what might be normal to one person can differ from what is normal to another person. I also thought the chicken/egg discussion was interesting. I would have just assumed that people ran to deal with their emotional disorders not that they developed them from the ultra endurance sport.

katharmonic · December 2021

I'm so glad you were able to see a knowledgeable cardiologist @rheddmobile. Sorry about your major cold though! Miserable.

The podcast topic is very interesting. I haven't had time to look at the research (I also review journal articles as part of my job so I'm interested) but it does bring up a lot of questions about how they actually asked about this. I say all the time I run to cope with stress, anxiety, and depression, but I wouldn't put that anywhere close to having a mental illness, but I wonder if it "counts"? I agree with the comments about the extremes.

Date :::: Miles :::: Cumulative
12/01/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 0.0
12/02/21 :::: 2.2 :::: 2.2
12/03/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 5.3
12/04/21 :::: 10.1 :::: 15.3
12/05/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 19.4
12/06/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 22.5
12/07/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 25.5
12/08/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 28.6
12/09/21 :::: 1.7 :::: 30.3
12/10/21 :::: 3.3 :::: 33.6
12/11/21 :::: 4.5 :::: 38.1
12/12/21 :::: 4.1 :::: 42.2
12/13/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 45.3
12/14/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 49.3
12/15/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 53.3
12/16/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 53.3
12/17/21 :::: 2.7 :::: 56.0
12/18/21 :::: 13.7 :::: 69.7
12/19/21 :::: 3.6 :::: 73.3
12/20/21 :::: 2.0 :::: 75.3
12/21/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 78.4
12/22/21 :::: 3.0 :::: 81.5
12/23/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 81.5

Yesterday I ran on the treadmill at the rock climbing gym after a bit of climbing. It was one of those rare days when it seemed to go by pretty fast on the treadmill. Today I decided to take a rest day from running.

I did my strength training class in the am, and tried out a new body scan thing they have at the gym. The old scan thing did this 360 picture of you and you had to be practically naked. It was always telling me I had a pretty high body fat %. This one is much simpler and just impedance based I guess. It said my visceral fat levels were good and my % body fat was much lower than the other one (which I last used about 2 years ago, but still I don't think it woul be that different). I liked that answer. It has a lot of numbers I didn't quite understand about extracellular and intracellular water, but the upshot was the ratio of those was good. Anyway, whatever your starting level the value I guess is in tracking your numbers over time so we'll see how it looks in a few weeks/months. Maybe well after the holidays.

rheddmobile · December 2021

Re: the podcast. Given that some recent studies have found exercise was at least as effective at improving depression as meds, I don’t see how it’s a bad thing that runners self-medicate with exercise.

Also, I would be interested in controls, since comparing runners to the population as a whole is ignoring that runners aren’t demographically the same as the population as a whole. Runners tend to be whiter, middle aged, and upper middle class compared to the general population. There was a joke that Strava global heat maps was a map of where rich white people live. Are these people over reporting mental illness because they are more likely to have access to a sympathetic doctor willing to prescribe meds?

sweetdaisy13 · December 2021

5.3 miles this morning. Hoping to do a long run in between Christmas and New Year.

December total:
52 miles & 4,790 feet of elevation.

Tramboman · December 2021

"Keepin' it sleasy!"

12-1 7k slow
12-2 7k slow
12-3 7k slow
12-4 7k sleasy
12-5 7k slow
12-6 7k slow
12-7 7k slow
12-8 7k sleasy
12-9 7k slow
12-10 7k sleasy
12-11 7k slow
12-12 7k sleasy
12-13 7k slow
12-14 7k sleasy
12-15 7k slow
12-16 7k easy
12-17 7k sleasy
12-18 5k treadmill
12-19 7k slow
12-20 7k slow
12-21 7k slow
12-22 7k slow
12-23 4k slow
12-24 4k slow

Don't Rest December Total: 160k
Don't Rest December Goal: 180k

Mostly cloudy, mid 40s F, and little wind this morning. Knee didn't hurt today, but my left foot did. Rolled my ankle around until I got a little crack from what I presume to be bones going back into alignment. No doubt my altered stride due to knee pain resulted in the misalignment of foot bones. Either way, just did the 4k in shorts and a short sleeved tech shirt, which drew some comments from the people I see walking their dogs. But I was happy!!!

When you pop in here claiming your December 2021 mileage, what accomplishments will you have made?

PUT THE FUN BACK IN THE RUN!
Return to a good running weight of 175 lbs (second attempt)

2021 Races:

6/26 Direction Up 5k, Solon, OH 31:48 chip; 31:59 Garmin; 53d overall; 2d male 65 and over
7/17 Run of the Ox 5k, Mantua, OH 32:19 Garmin; 44th overall; 3d place male 60 and over

quilteryoyo · December 2021

@Tramboman Glad you were able to get your foot to quit hurting. Funny about the people commenting on your attire. Glad you had a good, happy run.

martaindale · December 2021

rheddmobile wrote: »

Re: the podcast. Given that some recent studies have found exercise was at least as effective at improving depression as meds, I don’t see how it’s a bad thing that runners self-medicate with exercise.

Also, I would be interested in controls, since comparing runners to the population as a whole is ignoring that runners aren’t demographically the same as the population as a whole. Runners tend to be whiter, middle aged, and upper middle class compared to the general population. There was a joke that Strava global heat maps was a map of where rich white people live. Are these people over reporting mental illness because they are more likely to have access to a sympathetic doctor willing to prescribe meds?

The lack of diversity was mentioned as a limitation in the paper. The author acknowledged that ultraendurance athletes were overwhelmingly white. Regarding controls, while not perfect, the population at large is not a terrible control for the study. Mental illness is way under diagnosed in people of color and in poorer populations in the US and the study population was not 100% white. As per overreporting, I don’t think so. Rich white people have issues with mental illness as well, and you have to keep in mind that the study collected info not just for things like depression, anxiety, bipolar, OCD, etc but a variety of eating disorders as well. For whatever reason that is sort of getting lost in the discussion.
The first several pages of the study and a portion of the podcast acknowledged prior studies that showed moderate amounts of exercise (like the typically recommended 3-4 days a week for 30 mins) were effective at improving symptoms mental illness. This study particularly addresses ultra endurance athletes and stratified them based on hours of training, all of which were well beyond the range of moderate exercise. It was never insinuated that moderate exercise to treat/assist with mental health issues was problematic. It was more discussing whether there was a point where the benefits of exercise become outweighed by potential harms. Such as, are people using training for an Ironman to cover their exercise bulimia or are they using carb-loading to cover for binge eating? That sort of thing. Also, she discussed whether adhering to extreme levels of training for extended periods of time actually caused some mental illness for some people. Exercise addiction, anxiety related to missing life events versus missing a workout, depression being under recognized because these athletes don’t fit the idea in our heads of what a depressed person looks like.

WhatMeRunning · December 2021

Agreed that something worth being discussed, yet will likely be ignored (more properly "denied") is long distance running as an enabler for eating disorders. There are countless "groups" celebrating eating pizza, ice cream, cookies, you name it, because people "ran for them". That in and of itself can be perfectly innocent. But, having had to feed high levels of training to run consecutive marathons, I feel I can honestly say that such "rewards" can be counter-productive. You still need to properly fuel your body, and give it a LOT of proper fuel. There can still be room for a treat of some sort, a lot more room than can be afforded anyone other than extreme endurance athletes. And therein lies a variety of potential troubles. For example, are you running so much to enable such eating, and if you stop running for whatever reason (perhaps injury) can you resist overeating by reducing or eliminating the foods that provide no benefit to your health/recovery? Or did you start running while eating healthy and when struggling to get sufficient calories started downing whole pizzas and find it hard to go back to healthy eating unless you keep running at extreme levels? I agree that this is where some good discussion lies and it is nice to at least start the discussion. Not to claim that anything needs fixing, really the only issue is potentially running extremes in order to eat extremes, not a 5k to half marathoner having a pop tart or pumpkin spiced latte. It's more like downing a family pack of Oreos or eating a whole pizza as part of your post run routine.

katharmonic · December 2021

Thanks for the comments and insight @martaindale. I pulled up the thesis and am reading it quickly and she definitely makes the case in the introduction clear that studies have a clear link between moderate amounts of exercise and improved mental health outcomes, and coping with stress and emotions. So exactly the thing I and others were bringing up, but her thesis was motivated by the question of whether there is a point where that positive correlation between running and mental health turns into a negative. The scope of this study was just to establish the types and quantities of mental health conditions in this ultra-endurance athlete (multiple sports, not just running) population, before being able to attempt to answer the causal relationship.

I found the questionnaire results that assessed whether participants were at risk for mental health and eating disorders more compelling than the reported prior diagnoses (though those rates are interesting and significant as well). The questionnaires they used look pretty comprehensive and not just asking if the person ever feels depressed, anxious, etc and they are well validated measures. The rates of risk were more than doubled in the group that trained >20 hours week compared to 10-20 hrs/week in almost all categories including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, bulimia, binge eating, suicide and self harm. It's not answering the cause and effect but it's a very interesting effect that we probably intuitively predict that there is a point where more exercise and training is detrimental.

One of the limitations in addition to those mentioned already by @martaindale that the author acknowledge was the population of people willing to respond to the survey and comfortable disclosing their mental health concerns is perhaps a biased sample of the community of athletes. This is the case with survey research, and almost any research with human participants whether they volunteer and self-select participation. It would be interesting but hard to do a study where they went to ultra events and just tried to get everyone to participate.

Well I've gone on about this without any additional insight really but I found it very compelling to look into. If I had my PhD to do over again I'd be so interested in following this up!

katharmonic · December 2021

Date :::: Miles :::: Cumulative
12/01/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 0.0
12/02/21 :::: 2.2 :::: 2.2
12/03/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 5.3
12/04/21 :::: 10.1 :::: 15.3
12/05/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 19.4
12/06/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 22.5
12/07/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 25.5
12/08/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 28.6
12/09/21 :::: 1.7 :::: 30.3
12/10/21 :::: 3.3 :::: 33.6
12/11/21 :::: 4.5 :::: 38.1
12/12/21 :::: 4.1 :::: 42.2
12/13/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 45.3
12/14/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 49.3
12/15/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 53.3
12/16/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 53.3
12/17/21 :::: 2.7 :::: 56.0
12/18/21 :::: 13.7 :::: 69.7
12/19/21 :::: 3.6 :::: 73.3
12/20/21 :::: 2.0 :::: 75.3
12/21/21 :::: 3.1 :::: 78.4
12/22/21 :::: 3.0 :::: 81.5
12/23/21 :::: 0.0 :::: 81.5
12/24/21 :::: 4.0 :::: 85.5

A beautiful morning with a fresh snowfall overnight. Our first real accumulation this winter! It was quite cold but we had a nice Christmas eve morning run chatting about various topics including mulled wine, which was inspiring me to make some later today.

But then afterward I went to my new favorite little coffee shop in this super small town and there was some kind of small party going on. They offered me a little taste of the Bailey's and vodka drink they were sampling and it was so good. Now that's what I want. Maybe both. I'll be heading to the liquor store today I guess!

Happy holidays to all who celebrate and a peaceful weekend to everyone.

Scott6255 · December 2021

8 miles this morning. Felt like Christmas in July! 68F with 21mph wind @ 10am. Started out trying to run 'sleasy' (slow & easy), but that felt really hard. So after a few miles I increased the pace and felt better. But then by mile 7 I was whipped, but pushed it for 1 more mile. I really wish I knew how to run.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

December total: 61 miles

rheddmobile · December 2021

@Scott6255 This weather is crazy! Supposed to be a record high on Christmas tomorrow.

My husband and I got out for a trail “run.” We both have his cold, his is sticking around long enough that I think he is going to need antibiotics or something, it’s been too long for an ordinary virus. Still testing negative for Covid. He was hopeful he was improving and tried to run today, went one slow mile, then spent the rest of the time coughing and wheezing. I ran another couple miles while he walked, honestly feel a little bit run over by a truck. So slow and everything hard. I really wanted to get a run in though. It’s still just in my head but is making me feel dragged down. I’m hoping it doesn’t move into my chest but if his illness is any indication it doesn’t look good, which is one reason I wanted to get out there while I still felt semi okay.

We stopped to pick up sushi from the grocery store (too early for lunch places to be open) after running, and the crowds were alarming. No one masking, elbow to elbow. Yikes.

December 2021 Monthly Running Challenge

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