At Goal & Successfully Maintaining. So Why Am I Doing This All Over Again?

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  • coblujay
    coblujay Posts: 688 Member
    The price of success. :D
  • ridiculous59
    ridiculous59 Posts: 2,909 Member
    My husband once had a job where he regularly ruined his jeans, usually with spilled battery acid. So he started buying his work jeans at the thrift store. He had his "good" jeans for non-work occasions, but a $10 pair of respectable looking thrift store jeans were perfect for his job. Maybe your husband would be more inclined to wear clothes that fit if he wasn't paying full price for the constant wardrobe replacements? That's what I did while I was losing weight. Our kids used to laugh at my husband and I; anytime we'd go to a larger city was our first stop the mall? No. Costco? No. A thrift store? Yes!!! LOL
  • SavageMrsMoose
    SavageMrsMoose Posts: 631 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    @savagemrsmoose, I eat all my exercise calories, did all through weight loss as well as maintenance.

    I

    If there's double counting, do you have multiple sources linked to MFP? If so, maybe don't. If it's double-counting from a single source, maybe unlink everything, then reload/reset/relink?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "MFP . . . grossly underestimates my pace on the treadmill and . . . Peloton". MFP doesn't estimate pace?

    If there are underestimates of intensity somewhere, that implies an underestimate of calories. There's no risk to weight loss rate from estimating calories too low, except that you might lose dangerously fast. By eating back zero exercise calories, you're already risking even more dangerously fast.

    For someone who's exercising lots, not eating back exercise calories - whether averaged in via a TDEE calculator, synched via a tracker, logged manually - is guaranteed to be wrong, plus increases health risk, on top of the risk you're experiencing - eating randomly over goal because "too low" is unsustainable.

    If you at least commit to eat back a defined fraction of your estimated exercise calories regularly, even if not all, to the point where you can avoid "screw it all", you at least have a managed, metered situation, that you can adjust if it doesn't yield the results you want. "Screw it all and stop logging" randomly - that doesn't give you a basis for making rational adjustments to find your tolerable, successful intake.

    Thank you for the input.

    When I mean MFP underestimates my pace, I mean that, according to my pace on the tradmill, I'm running a 10 minute mile, and MFP thinks its only a 12 minute mile. Or on the bike, I'm riding at 17 MPH and MFP thinks its a "leisurely ride of less than 10 mph" It doesn't sound like much, but the differences in effort, and my post-workout hunger, are significant.

    So I manually adjust and get a closer estimate.

    As for double counting, I'm always doing challenges through STRAVA or Peloton so I want "credit" but the AppleHealth is also being counted. I usually just manually delete, but I don't want to disconnect because- sometimes I DO run without it being recorded on either of those apps.

    In short- I think I have been unsuccessful because its unrealistic for me to not at least count some of these calories. I find myself having trouble sustaining my 1430 calories when I'm exercising significantly.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,377 Member
    SavageMrsMoose wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    @savagemrsmoose, I eat all my exercise calories, did all through weight loss as well as maintenance.

    I

    If there's double counting, do you have multiple sources linked to MFP? If so, maybe don't. If it's double-counting from a single source, maybe unlink everything, then reload/reset/relink?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "MFP . . . grossly underestimates my pace on the treadmill and . . . Peloton". MFP doesn't estimate pace?

    If there are underestimates of intensity somewhere, that implies an underestimate of calories. There's no risk to weight loss rate from estimating calories too low, except that you might lose dangerously fast. By eating back zero exercise calories, you're already risking even more dangerously fast.

    For someone who's exercising lots, not eating back exercise calories - whether averaged in via a TDEE calculator, synched via a tracker, logged manually - is guaranteed to be wrong, plus increases health risk, on top of the risk you're experiencing - eating randomly over goal because "too low" is unsustainable.

    If you at least commit to eat back a defined fraction of your estimated exercise calories regularly, even if not all, to the point where you can avoid "screw it all", you at least have a managed, metered situation, that you can adjust if it doesn't yield the results you want. "Screw it all and stop logging" randomly - that doesn't give you a basis for making rational adjustments to find your tolerable, successful intake.

    Thank you for the input.

    When I mean MFP underestimates my pace, I mean that, according to my pace on the tradmill, I'm running a 10 minute mile, and MFP thinks its only a 12 minute mile. Or on the bike, I'm riding at 17 MPH and MFP thinks its a "leisurely ride of less than 10 mph" It doesn't sound like much, but the differences in effort, and my post-workout hunger, are significant.

    So I manually adjust and get a closer estimate.

    I don't know your specific tracker devices (I'm a Garmin user), but I don't think a person would want to alter (increase) the calorie estimate that comes from a tracker interface, without a really, really, good justification to do so. I'm skeptical that it's giving you a closer estimate.

    The fact that it's a different description than what you did may not be relevant, honestly. It's the calorie number that matters. It's probable that if a fitness tracker gives you a readout of calories for an exercise session (within its app, not on MFP), that that estimate is gross calories, i.e., includes BMR/RMR when you'd really want net (without BMR/RMR). I don't know how the interface between MFP and your device(s) pick a description, but I'd bet they are negotiating the calories more accurately than they are the descriptions, though I admit I don't know that for sure. (I wish @heybales were here, but I haven't seen him in the Community lately.)

    I do understand wanting to get "attagirl" credit for the pace you really did, but I'm concerned that you may be inflating the calorie estimate by switching it. (There's a theoretical problem with MFP's generally research-based METS estimates that tends to make them somewhat overestimated across the board; on top of that METS estimates are iffy theoretically for certain exercises, one of which is cycling at X mph/kph. In reality, more than speed matters: Type of bike matters, terrain matters, and more. If you have a watts based estimate from a bike (power meter on a non-stationary bike), that can be used to get a more accurate net calorie estimate.)

    Now, what I just said above truly doesn't matter when you're mostly not eating back exercise calories! You should be estimating exercise calories reasonably accurately if you can, then eating back a fair fraction of them, possibly all of them!

    The stuff I just wrote about above is about getting estimates that are (maybe) more accurate. None of that is to suggest not eating the calories. I would hope your post-exercise hunger will abate if you consistently start eating back exercise calories, at least some consistent high percentage of them.

    As for double counting, I'm always doing challenges through STRAVA or Peloton so I want "credit" but the AppleHealth is also being counted. I usually just manually delete, but I don't want to disconnect because- sometimes I DO run without it being recorded on either of those apps.

    In short- I think I have been unsuccessful because its unrealistic for me to not at least count some of these calories. I find myself having trouble sustaining my 1430 calories when I'm exercising significantly.

    Yes. You should be eating back exercise calories - at least some consistent pretty-high fraction of them. 1430 calories is not very many calories . . . and your experience (symptom set) is suggesting that it's too few calories for you.
  • SavageMrsMoose
    SavageMrsMoose Posts: 631 Member
    [

    I don't know your specific tracker devices (I'm a Garmin user), but I don't think a person would want to alter (increase) the calorie estimate that comes from a tracker interface, without a really, really, good justification to do so. I'm skeptical that it's giving you a closer estimate.

    The fact that it's a different description than what you did may not be relevant, honestly. It's the calorie number that matters. It's probable that if a fitness tracker gives you a readout of calories for an exercise session (within its app, not on MFP), that that estimate is gross calories, i.e., includes BMR/RMR when you'd really want net (without BMR/RMR). I don't know how the interface between MFP and your device(s) pick a description, but I'd bet they are negotiating the calories more accurately than they are the descriptions, though I admit I don't know that for sure. (I wish @heybales were here, but I haven't seen him in the Community lately.)

    I do understand wanting to get "attagirl" credit for the pace you really did, but I'm concerned that you may be inflating the calorie estimate by switching it. (There's a theoretical problem with MFP's generally research-based METS estimates that tends to make them somewhat overestimated across the board; on top of that METS estimates are iffy theoretically for certain exercises, one of which is cycling at X mph/kph. In reality, more than speed matters: Type of bike matters, terrain matters, and more. If you have a watts based estimate from a bike (power meter on a non-stationary bike), that can be used to get a more accurate net calorie estimate.)

    I think I'm going to just approximate and give myself more leeway and eat more calories so I can stick to this longer term.

    But I do think AppleHealth is not particularly accurate for me for calories, at least much of the time. Today, my exercise calorie total was probably pretty close 1057 calories... the run not accurate for pace but pretty close for calories- today. 674 if my accurate pace was recorded- 638 at what it thought my pace was. Based on my history, I generally get about 10 calories per minute of running at an endurance pace over lots of different apps. And today I was doing intervals -so significantly more intense - so seems fair that I got a little more than 550 for a 55 minute run.

    I feel like the Peloton's estimate of my calories seems more accurate - maybe because its based on output (speed plus resistance) but also probably because its higher. I like it better !

    But my REAL problem is that I feel guilty eating more than a couple hundred calories more than my base of 1430.... I need to get over that- its just not sustainable.

    Thank you @springlering62 for the link. I'll check it out. I am not tiny - I'm 5'6" and currently 165. Fat but fast for 52. But I would be faster if I lost 30 pounds. I'd love to look like the athlete I know I am.

    Anyway- thank you to you both for such thoughtful input!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »

    The fact that it's a different description than what you did may not be relevant, honestly. It's the calorie number that matters. It's probable that if a fitness tracker gives you a readout of calories for an exercise session (within its app, not on MFP), that that estimate is gross calories, i.e., includes BMR/RMR when you'd really want net (without BMR/RMR). I don't know how the interface between MFP and your device(s) pick a description, but I'd bet they are negotiating the calories more accurately than they are the descriptions, though I admit I don't know that for sure. (I wish @heybales were here, but I haven't seen him in the Community lately.)

    That is very true - the account sending the workout picks from the acceptable MFP text descriptions. And calories, and start/duration time.

    MFP isn't sent the pace or speed and it selects the correct one.

    I haven't checked the MFP API description list lately, but it did use to be a subset of the database descriptions that was available to send to MFP.

    So it was up to the sending account to map all their descriptors to the MFP ones they wanted to use. Or not, and get some generic text label for "workout".

    I agree the fitness tracker may have it's own descriptions (Garmin has nothing about speed/pace in different category levels, but they seem to pick the correct MFP one for ones I've seen), and while they may attempt some math to pick a close text description - calories is it's own field.

    Considering this is Apple - I expect very little of them attempting to work nicely with 3rd party, actually spending the resources for correct mapping.
    That you are getting a non-generic description at all actually surprises me.

    Ditto's to trying to make a change and become the athlete you train as.
    I've seen some articles lately about the difficulty of losing weight while doing endurance training for performance - which you'd think would be easy.
    But the fact is the extra stress of just the exercise now makes it a very fine line between acceptable and too much for the body, and when something basically gives from going over the line, it's usually the recovery and performance improvements, not losing more fat. And it can be subtle enough to not notice until too far along over the line.
  • EliseTK1
    EliseTK1 Posts: 483 Member
    springlering62 wrote: »
    Breakfast sure makes a difference, if you’re doing early morning workouts.

    Agreed. Breakfast is my favorite meal, and it sets the tone for the day. I’ve learned to have protein every single morning, preferably with a healthy fat, otherwise I get hungry and shaky within a couple hours even if I’m not exercising. It doesn’t take a ton- a whole wheat English muffin or half a BetterBrand bagel with almond or peanut butter is enough. Eggs are great. I always have a mid morning snack as well, usually a protein bar of some kind.

    Eating small, frequent meals/snacks helps me out quite a bit with workouts because no matter what time of day I get around to it, I’m never too full, never too hungry, and always have a steady supply of energy. If my meals are too big, I get into a cycle of being really full, then really hungry, and continuously dragging and unable to perform well.

    Even if I thought intermittent fasting was a good idea (I don’t), I don’t think I could do it and still function fully at the gym.
  • steveko89
    steveko89 Posts: 2,223 Member
    EliseTK1 wrote: »
    springlering62 wrote: »
    Breakfast sure makes a difference, if you’re doing early morning workouts.

    Agreed. Breakfast is my favorite meal, and it sets the tone for the day. I’ve learned to have protein every single morning, preferably with a healthy fat, otherwise I get hungry and shaky within a couple hours even if I’m not exercising. It doesn’t take a ton- a whole wheat English muffin or half a BetterBrand bagel with almond or peanut butter is enough. Eggs are great. I always have a mid morning snack as well, usually a protein bar of some kind.

    Eating small, frequent meals/snacks helps me out quite a bit with workouts because no matter what time of day I get around to it, I’m never too full, never too hungry, and always have a steady supply of energy. If my meals are too big, I get into a cycle of being really full, then really hungry, and continuously dragging and unable to perform well.

    Even if I thought intermittent fasting was a good idea (I don’t), I don’t think I could do it and still function fully at the gym.

    I've probably gone way further down the nutrient timing rabbit hole than most. I feel like OMAD is one extreme end of the spectrum, which I've not tried, but I did dabble with 16:8 for a while when it was alleged to be the panacea of being jacked and lean. I was training sub-optimally at the time but always felt like I was dragging. I definitely tend towards the opposite end of that spectrum now, having my protein doses spread out across 5-6 instances (6 on workout days, 5 on my rest day). Per RP methodology, there's some evidence to weight macro distribution such that you have your carbs around your workout and push fats to elsewhere in the day. As I understand it, ingesting fats in tandem with protein is suboptimal for rate of absorption and thus utilization of dietary protein for muscle protein synthesis (i.e. dem sweet gainz). For a morning training the practical application is avoid extra fats until ~mid afternoon and strategically include them in the last protein dose of the day (which is ideally a longer digesting casein protein source) to essentially get your body through the night which is your longest stretch between meals. I've been doing that pretty consistently since April of last year and think there are at least some fractional benefits in terms of aesthetics. In terms of how I feel throughout the day and energy for active pursuits there's definitely merit doing that vs. IF, which just made me focus on how hungry and tired I was for half of the day.
  • steveko89
    steveko89 Posts: 2,223 Member
    EliseTK1 wrote: »
    @steveko89 Very interesting breakdown. I’m not sure I’ll ever get so detailed with my macro distribution, but I do already space my protein throughout the day to maximize the benefits. I’ll never say never though- for years I wasn’t optimistic I’d ever get as close to my goals as I currently am, so maybe by this time next year I’ll be actively body building and taking every single advantage I can find. Could be a fun challenge!

    Having been on MFP for over 10 years now, I've gone through many many iterations on what was "good enough" only to find that wasn't necessarily the case to most optimally work towards my goals. I've not purchased any products from Renaissance Periodization but the amount of their science-backed info you can find for free is impressive and I've found very useful. There's a free resources section on their website and Dr. Mike's youtube has some really good, extensive information, very geared towards body building.
  • beabria
    beabria Posts: 541 Member
    springlering62 wrote: »
    He told me later in the morning he sure felt a difference. “Special K is fine for Tai Chi, but I definitely ran out of steam during water aerobics”.

    We’ve both had similar learning experiences this week. The bakery clerk put an extra Apple fritter in the bag for Sunday morning Doughnut Day, and I ate it Monday morning, and had the exact same experience. Not only did it want to come back up during Spin & HIIT class, by the time I got round to aquafit I was already dragging.

    Breakfast sure makes a difference, if you’re doing early morning workouts.

    If you’ll pardon me, I just remembered I need to make a batch of pancakes to stick in the fridge……

    This is 100% true! I used to be one of those who thought breakfast just made me hungrier - which was true if I was having a very carby breakfast. The past month, I've been having protein powder in my morning tea (not my only breakfast item, for the record!). I've been pushing up against the top of my calorie range recently, and started eying that as something to cut. Was it really making a difference in my fullness??? Next day - YES that bit of protein is apparently key to holding me over to lunch!!!

  • MelodiousMermaid
    MelodiousMermaid Posts: 380 Member
    Thank you for this thread. I look forward to seeing future progress, recipes, and stories!

    Ninja should hire you as a spokesperson/marketer @springlering62 ! I have a new kitchen gadget, as I couldn't resist the lure of all the noms!! I have a lemon sorbet set in the freezer for prep now that has a total calorie load of 27 for a pint (used Cary's syrup instead of corn syrup, and swerve in place of sugar). Perfect for a day that I need to keep the footprint small, but have something that feels like at least a sort-of indulgence.

    ...Or at least I'm hoping it'll taste/feel like that -- swerve is new to me. Was looking for allulose locally, but didn't find it, but hadn't tried this sweetener before so decided to give it a go. And not sure Cary's was the right choice, could have gone with a bit of a Jordan's skinny syrups instead.

    9s14yfgdcswn.jpg

    As a side note, if any of you fine people are up for another MFP friend, I'd welcome more people.
  • Sparkuvu
    Sparkuvu Posts: 2,698 Member
    I'll second that!
  • joans1976
    joans1976 Posts: 2,201 Member
    Thank the MFP gods for this thread! So BL still won’t weigh? Does he take measurements? Or is it all clothes falling off?

    The 1200 calorie start off thing is painful but I will admit when I first started in 2011, that’s what I set it for 🙄

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