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Fitness and diet myths that just won't go away
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You can do whatever you want, including hurting yourself, but you may want to look into what chiropractors, physiotherapists and doctors actually know. Let's just say that not asking someone is not generally considered the best strategy to find out what they actually know. As for chiropractic, see lecture 3 of Harriet Hall's series on science-based medicine.BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I have recently been diagnosed with osteoporosis, specifically in my spine. I've been lifting for roughly 10 years now and, per a chiropractor and a physiotherapist, I need to continue lifting. My GP knows nothing about exercise, I don't even ask her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKxZmDRkQnI
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BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
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Actually, the heading says "Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author."claireychn074 wrote: »I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. I have absolutely nothing against ideas that are being challenged. I welcome it. It is how knowledge is acquired, corrected and improved. If we did not have that process, medicine (and the rest of science) would never advance. You are welcome to utterly destroy what I say. As Nicolas Boileau said, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière". The only type of comment I would not accept is something like "you are an idiot". I may well be one, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of my argument.
That said, I was reacting to what you wrote. You wrote about "older people", and about not lifting, regardless of weight. I would point out that there is no accepted definition for "older people", although it is often used as a euphemism for "old", but then there is no accepted definition for that either. In medicine, 65+ is usually seen as "elderly" but even that is not a definition set in stone.
Second, I have a hard time to accept that doctors would advise people not to lift anything, regardless of weight. That would make daily life impossible for them. How are they to go grocery shopping, to prepare food or even drink a coffee if they are not supposed to lift anything?
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"Old people" is about 20 years older than me, and increases by one every year.25
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BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Actually, the heading says "Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author."claireychn074 wrote: »I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. I have absolutely nothing against ideas that are being challenged. I welcome it. It is how knowledge is acquired, corrected and improved. If we did not have that process, medicine (and the rest of science) would never advance. You are welcome to utterly destroy what I say. As Nicolas Boileau said, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière". The only type of comment I would not accept is something like "you are an idiot". I may well be one, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of my argument.
That said, I was reacting to what you wrote. You wrote about "older people", and about not lifting, regardless of weight. I would point out that there is no accepted definition for "older people", although it is often used as a euphemism for "old", but then there is no accepted definition for that either. In medicine, 65+ is usually seen as "elderly" but even that is not a definition set in stone.
Second, I have a hard time to accept that doctors would advise people not to lift anything, regardless of weight. That would make daily life impossible for them. How are they to go grocery shopping, to prepare food or even drink a coffee if they are not supposed to lift anything?
For decades, doctors and lymphedema specialists told breast cancer survivors who'd had axillary lymph nodes removed not to lift anything over 5 pounds with the affected arm ever again. Yes, that would make normal life nearly impossible. A gallon of milk weighs around 8 pounds.
This advice was still somewhat current when I was diagnosed/treated in 2000.
Fortunately, better science was coming along, and it was demonstrated that this advice was wrong, and perhaps even counter-productive. It became clear that reasonable (cautious, progressive) upper body repetitive-resistance exercise was not dangerous, and possibly was even protective. I was enrolled in a study that was part of that scientific evolution: It looked at breast cancer survivor rowers.
This (above) is not an argument that doctors are stupid or uncaring. But they will give the advice that they sincerely believe is best for managing the patient's condition, in general. If that advice screws up the patient's everyday life, it will be up to the patient to figure out the risk tradeoffs.
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BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Actually, the heading says "Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author."claireychn074 wrote: »I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. I have absolutely nothing against ideas that are being challenged. I welcome it. It is how knowledge is acquired, corrected and improved. If we did not have that process, medicine (and the rest of science) would never advance. You are welcome to utterly destroy what I say. As Nicolas Boileau said, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière". The only type of comment I would not accept is something like "you are an idiot". I may well be one, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of my argument.
That said, I was reacting to what you wrote. You wrote about "older people", and about not lifting, regardless of weight. I would point out that there is no accepted definition for "older people", although it is often used as a euphemism for "old", but then there is no accepted definition for that either. In medicine, 65+ is usually seen as "elderly" but even that is not a definition set in stone.
Second, I have a hard time to accept that doctors would advise people not to lift anything, regardless of weight. That would make daily life impossible for them. How are they to go grocery shopping, to prepare food or even drink a coffee if they are not supposed to lift anything?
For decades, doctors and lymphedema specialists told breast cancer survivors who'd had axillary lymph nodes removed not to lift anything over 5 pounds with the affected arm ever again. Yes, that would make normal life nearly impossible. A gallon of milk weighs around 8 pounds.
This advice was still somewhat current when I was diagnosed/treated in 2000.
Fortunately, better science was coming along, and it was demonstrated that this advice was wrong, and perhaps even counter-productive. It became clear that reasonable (cautious, progressive) upper body repetitive-resistance exercise was not dangerous, and possibly was even protective. I was enrolled in a study that was part of that scientific evolution: It looked at breast cancer survivor rowers.
This (above) is not an argument that doctors are stupid or uncaring. But they will give the advice that they sincerely believe is best for managing the patient's condition, in general. If that advice screws up the patient's everyday life, it will be up to the patient to figure out the risk tradeoffs.
Exactly. I had a large adrenal tumour removed in 2014. The advice then, and since, was not to lift any weights or do any “vigorous” exercise. Why? Because surgeons are incredibly skilled but most are not trained or educated in recovery (hence the surgeon I work with being different as he
pioneers treatments which include pre and post operative care). Surgeons aren’t taught modules of post op recovery: best friend’s wife is an ophthalmologic surgeon and she told me to go and see a rehab specialist as soon as immediate recovery was completed. She was open about the fact that most doctors and surgeons don’t know about longer term recovery.1 -
BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
You can do whatever you want, including hurting yourself, but you may want to look into what chiropractors, physiotherapists and doctors actually know. Let's just say that not asking someone is not generally considered the best strategy to find out what they actually know. As for chiropractic, see lecture 3 of Harriet Hall's series on science-based medicine.BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I have recently been diagnosed with osteoporosis, specifically in my spine. I've been lifting for roughly 10 years now and, per a chiropractor and a physiotherapist, I need to continue lifting. My GP knows nothing about exercise, I don't even ask her.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKxZmDRkQnI
My doctor doesn't even know what a deadlift is. The only thing she's ever told me about weightlifting is "Don't hurt yourself". Her idea of exercise advice is to parrot the standard 20 minutes a day cardio recommendation. Awesome.
What I know is that applying resistance is the only chance I have to (maybe) prevent further deterioration of my bones.4 -
.claireychn074 wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Actually, the heading says "Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author."claireychn074 wrote: »I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. I have absolutely nothing against ideas that are being challenged. I welcome it. It is how knowledge is acquired, corrected and improved. If we did not have that process, medicine (and the rest of science) would never advance. You are welcome to utterly destroy what I say. As Nicolas Boileau said, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière". The only type of comment I would not accept is something like "you are an idiot". I may well be one, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of my argument.
That said, I was reacting to what you wrote. You wrote about "older people", and about not lifting, regardless of weight. I would point out that there is no accepted definition for "older people", although it is often used as a euphemism for "old", but then there is no accepted definition for that either. In medicine, 65+ is usually seen as "elderly" but even that is not a definition set in stone.
Second, I have a hard time to accept that doctors would advise people not to lift anything, regardless of weight. That would make daily life impossible for them. How are they to go grocery shopping, to prepare food or even drink a coffee if they are not supposed to lift anything?
For decades, doctors and lymphedema specialists told breast cancer survivors who'd had axillary lymph nodes removed not to lift anything over 5 pounds with the affected arm ever again. Yes, that would make normal life nearly impossible. A gallon of milk weighs around 8 pounds.
This advice was still somewhat current when I was diagnosed/treated in 2000.
Fortunately, better science was coming along, and it was demonstrated that this advice was wrong, and perhaps even counter-productive. It became clear that reasonable (cautious, progressive) upper body repetitive-resistance exercise was not dangerous, and possibly was even protective. I was enrolled in a study that was part of that scientific evolution: It looked at breast cancer survivor rowers.
This (above) is not an argument that doctors are stupid or uncaring. But they will give the advice that they sincerely believe is best for managing the patient's condition, in general. If that advice screws up the patient's everyday life, it will be up to the patient to figure out the risk tradeoffs.
Exactly. I had a large adrenal tumour removed in 2014. The advice then, and since, was not to lift any weights or do any “vigorous” exercise. Why? Because surgeons are incredibly skilled but most are not trained or educated in recovery (hence the surgeon I work with being different as he
pioneers treatments which include pre and post operative care). Surgeons aren’t taught modules of post op recovery: best friend’s wife is an ophthalmologic surgeon and she told me to go and see a rehab specialist as soon as immediate recovery was completed. She was open about the fact that most doctors and surgeons don’t know about longer term recovery.
I was lucky. Post-treatment, a lot of medical sources were giving that "don't ever lift more than 5 pounds with your left arm" advice.
I asked my surgeon about it. He shrugged, and said something like this: "The lymphedema clinics see people who got lymphedema, and they try to figure out what triggered it, and give advice based on those conclusions. I see those patients, plus all the people who had the surgery, did the same things, and didn't get lymphedema. I think it's important to avoid injury to that arm, so be carefully progressive, but plenty of women lift weights after surgery and do just fine." The studies were just starting to come out, putting more formal evidence to his view of it.
Some (few) doctors still push the outdated, life-limiting advice.3 -
claireychn074 wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
Who is telling you this? Your doctor? I am almost 10 years older than you and have always been told that some sort of resistance training/lifting is beneficial. I am curious as to who is telling average middle aged people to not lift even light weights.1 -
Endocrinologist, hepatobiliary oncologist, cancer nurse, GP - I could go on 🤣 As @AnnPT77 said above, it was standard advice for post-cancer patients for many years. Not the medical professionals’ fault - it’s what they had been instructed was right. But it’s not 🤷♂️claireychn074 wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
Who is telling you this? Your doctor? I am almost 10 years older than you and have always been told that some sort of resistance training/lifting is beneficial. I am curious as to who is telling average middle aged people to not lift even light weights.
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claireychn074 wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
Who is telling you this? Your doctor? I am almost 10 years older than you and have always been told that some sort of resistance training/lifting is beneficial. I am curious as to who is telling average middle aged people to not lift even light weights.
I'm surprised at that bolded. Now, as current advice from actual experts and authorities - yeah, mostly.
But always? Dunno.
I'm older than either of you - sounds like 10+ years older than you, at 67 now.
For sure, when I was a teenager and young adult, women lifting weights was commonly seen as Not Done. (Yes, some - to their credit - did it anyway.)
One of my friends (fellow rower), almost 10 years older than me (76) started lifting in her 30s, probably 1980s. She told me that she - working as a hair stylist - never told her clients back then, because they would've dropped her. Now, she's one of the most physically robust - maybe the most robust - older woman I know. And she's still lifting.
Weight training was less common in my youth for everyone, even among elite athletes - not the adjunct to training it pretty much universally is now, for people interested in performance. And it certainly wasn't seen as a good thing for women!
I met one of the women who'd been part of the Yale women's rowing team in 1976. That team's graphic protest led to nationwide publicity about how poorly colleges were complying with the then-new Title IX requirements that women be offered equal athletic opportunities to men at the collegiate level. (Read about it. They were amazing.)
Here's a quote from one of those women, one who was part of a boat that won Silver for the US in the 1975 World Championships:"Chris and I would be lifting in the weight room," said Warner, "while the men stood over us, hooting and calling us names. It was horrible."
Source: https://www.espn.com/espnw/title-ix/story/_/id/7985418/espn-magazine-1976-protest-helped-define-title-ix-movement
Women were literally spit on and catcalled, lifting in gyms.
It was a time when women were denied good-paying jobs because of laws limiting the amount they were allowed to lift at work (there were sex disparities in these laws at least into the 1960s in the US, and I think persisting until as late as 1980s). For sure, it was commonly thought in my youth that weight lifting would masculinize women (possibly even beyond the myths about "getting bulky" visually to more profound levels).
There are still vestiges of those attitudes among some dinosaurs, and I suspect that's compounded by the tendency of some (also mostly dinosaurs) to believe that aging people are incapable (also not true as a generality). It doesn't surprise me at at all that an aging woman could get that reaction, even now.9 -
One of my friends (fellow rower), almost 10 years older than me (76) started lifting in her 30s, probably 1980s. She told me that she - working as a hair stylist - never told her clients back then, because they would've dropped her. Now, she's one of the most physically robust - maybe the most robust - older woman I know. And she's still lifting.
In the mid 80s, two young women stand out for me. One had done a degree in fitness and was a regular gym-goer, including lifting. Another, a classmate in undergrad, was also an avid lifter and really encouraged me to join her, saying I'd get definition really fast because my bodyfat was so low. At the time I just politely declined while thinking to myself, "Definition? What's that? And why do I want it?"
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I was in high school in the 80s and played soccer and volleyball, we did weight training (not dead lifting but free weights because school gyms didn’t have anything else). We even had a unit in our normal gym class where all the boys and girls did weight training and calisthenics. We also all did gymnastics, and field hockey. And snowshoeing in the winter along with more common stuff like basketball, track, soccer, volleyball. I went to a public high school - nothing fancy. No one was particularly socially advanced or progressive, but we all also took home ec (sewing and cooking) and wood shop and metal shop. My mom still had the napkinholders and tin boxes I made when I helped her pare down to move. I recognize that I am a bit younger, but the high school teachers in charge of my education in rural NY had to have come by their views and attitudes somewhere.3
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Well then, that is certainly more realistic. That said, I never lift a gallon of milk, becuse I don't drink milk. <giggle>For decades, doctors and lymphedema specialists told breast cancer survivors who'd had axillary lymph nodes removed not to lift anything over 5 pounds with the affected arm ever again. Yes, that would make normal life nearly impossible. A gallon of milk weighs around 8 pounds.
In that case, you'll get no argument from me except confirmation that evolution can be slow and that it is likely to become even slower until we find a livable solution to the current speed at which our knowledge is growing. After all, doctors' heads are not growing at the same speed and even if they did, there is only so much time to stuff them with new knowledge while the patients are sitting in the waiting room yelling and screaming in pain and despair. Something has to change and it is probably not the addition of more specialists.This (above) is not an argument that doctors are stupid or uncaring. But they will give the advice that they sincerely believe is best for managing the patient's condition, in general. If that advice screws up the patient's everyday life, it will be up to the patient to figure out the risk tradeoffs.1 -
claireychn074 wrote: »
Endocrinologist, hepatobiliary oncologist, cancer nurse, GP - I could go on 🤣 As @AnnPT77 said above, it was standard advice for post-cancer patients for many years. Not the medical professionals’ fault - it’s what they had been instructed was right. But it’s not 🤷♂️claireychn074 wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I rarely outright disagree with people as I think we all have our own lived experiences, learned outcomes and scientific knowledge. But I disagree with you because I think you misunderstood what I meant. I’m not on about people in their 60s or 70s with osteoporosis suddenly maxing out on DLs with no prior experience. I’m on about the average person, over a certain age (for context I’m 48) who has been told to stop lifting even LIGHT weights. Now, women should actually lift (yes of course it should be done safely and appropriately) but our bones thin more than men’s as we approach the menopause. We need weight bearing exercise. Added to that, it helps to slow or even reduce sarcopenia, which helps to prevent falls and this reduces risk of serious injury as we get older. For info, I work with one of the UK’s leading orthopaedic surgeons who pioneered rapid recovery from hip surgery and who has the country’s best outcome rates. He gets his clients to take exercise before and after surgery - including lifting. So I’m talking both from personal lived experience and medical knowledge.
Who is telling you this? Your doctor? I am almost 10 years older than you and have always been told that some sort of resistance training/lifting is beneficial. I am curious as to who is telling average middle aged people to not lift even light weights.
Oh okay - sorry I missed the cancer patient part - when you said "average person" I didn't realize you meant post cancer.1 -
That if you eat the right things and exercise, then you won't get sick.
I'm not saying that taking care of one's body isn't important, but there seems to be a myth that we can't catch bad diseases, or develop diseases based on our genetics, as long as we eat 'healthy' food and exercise.5 -
You are right.That if you eat the right things and exercise, then you won't get sick.
I'm not saying that taking care of one's body isn't important, but there seems to be a myth that we can't catch bad diseases, or develop diseases based on our genetics, as long as we eat 'healthy' food and exercise.
I am guessing that is because people aren't being taught to realise that biology/reality is not a black-and-white thing. Eating healthfully will reduce the probability of illness, but most definitely not even remotely eliminate it.
This problem is everywhere. Just think of the problems caused by people who refuse(d) to wear masks or get vaccinated because "they don't stop COVID". They are right. They don't stop COVID, but they significantly reduce the probability of catching it and they significantly reduce the probability of dying from it.
We have seen something similar a few decades ago when seatbelts became mandatory in cars. The claim was that seatbelts don't prevent accidents, and indeed they don't. In fact, they sometimes even make the consequences of accidents worse. However, statistically, they are a Big Win for society.
The example you give is just another iteration of the same old problem.
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Just this weekend I had a supposed fitness and nutrition coach tell me that I can't lose weight if I eat after 6:00 PM.1
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(Because this appears to be everywhere in the forums at the moment) That IF or low carb are the ONLY ways or BEST ways to lose weight.
Nope. They work for some people and that’s great. They don’t work for others, that’s also great.
The best way to lose weight is to pick something which is sustainable for the individual, whether that’s eating one meal a day, eating in a 4/6/13 hour window, or grazing constantly, Eating what you enjoy, what you can easily digest and what you can afford is important - not the latest fad.12 -
"Body recomposition isn't possible with a calorie deficit"3
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Yeah, they aren't the one to go to for nutrition advice. Lol, how many people in other countries eat after 9pm for dinner?Mouse_Potato wrote: »Just this weekend I had a supposed fitness and nutrition coach tell me that I can't lose weight if I eat after 6:00 PM.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Gaining muscle is definitely a bit harder on a calorie deficit since it's catabolic whereas building muscle is anabolic. Your nutrition would have to be spot on especially with protein intake.magster4isu wrote: »"Body recomposition isn't possible with a calorie deficit"
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
My family rarely eats dinner before 7pm, and sometimes not until after 8pm. 9pm would be pushing it due to my tendency to get heartburn from lying down too soon after a meal.0
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A general point, but the increasing number of responses from MFP posters who are presenting their opinion as fact - and often omnipotent fact. It’s annoying me at the moment. New users might not have the knowledge and learned experience to dismiss the statements / understand it might be one anecdotal opinion 🤷♂️
ETA: just to clarify - personal opinions and / or experience = good. But opinions presented wrongly as scientific fact = not good. You know what I mean!!13 -
Perfectionism is the bane of many dieters. The all or nothing mentality, slicing food into more black and white thinking. I threw all of the food rules out the window. I don't believe drinking 64 oz of water every day is a miracle cure. I tried IF, but my eating window was 8-9 hours. It was no different than my childhood training. We ate 3 meals aday.
Maw put food on the table, and we never gave it any thought. I've tried to remember our portions, but I can't. No one was taking more than their fair share. We didn't snack between meals, but I don't ever remember going to bed hungry.
The entire food war is within ourselves. Overconsumption math doesn't lie. Food rules become a panacea and patronizing. If you believe them, they must be true. The longer you go, the more they become like nails on a chalkboard. If your mind hears one more food rule, you'll bolt for the door.
Food rules are as rigid as a fireplace poker, but leave you without any warmth. No one is denied the right to create their own food rules. Have they changed everything for you then? Are you still standing in maintenance at the 5 year mark.
Who would you be if you set down the weight of the food rules you've been carrying. We have to put the sticks we keep beating ourselves with down. I've gone back to my childhood roots. I eat three meals aday. I don't worry if they pass the purity test. One of my favorite @springlering62 quotes, "My body rearranges itself like a crazy woman moving furniture."
Food rules no longer make me feel special. I don't have any ribbons on my dieting trophy wall. I eat three meals aday. I just had a complete blood profile and everything was right down the middle.8 -
@Hiawassee88
I wholeheartedly agree. The only thing that makes or breaks weight loss is an energy deficit. Nothing else and even that only needs to be accomplished on average. There are a whole bunch of ways to get to a deficit but that is important only to a specific person. The energy deficit is what counts. Whatever works, works. Whatever doesn't, doesn't.2 -
My 2 favorites are
1. Your body will go into starvation mode
2. If your not losing weight up your calories2 -
My 2 favorites are
1. Your body will go into starvation mode
2. If your not losing weight up your calories
Mmmmmmmm I DO lose weight when I increase calories. In fact, am doing that right now, and expect to be at my lowest in months when I weigh in tomorrow.
Sorry! 🦄
When I stall higher than I’d like for maintenance, or notice that I’m nap’ish in the afternoon, bumping the calories up always kicks things in gear. I think for some folks, either can indicate under-fueling.
Yeah, blaming starvation mode makes me want to reach through and slap some folks. They’re also usually the ones under eating, tired, low energy, and hitting it too hard. Suggestions to increase fall on deaf ears.2 -
BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
You can do whatever you want, including hurting yourself, but you may want to look into what chiropractors, physiotherapists and doctors actually know. Let's just say that not asking someone is not generally considered the best strategy to find out what they actually know. As for chiropractic, see lecture 3 of Harriet Hall's series on science-based medicine.BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
It is not only a matter of "easier" but also a matter of being "less dangerous". Older people are at higher risk of osteoporosis, and lifting weights is very dangerous for them. Whether or not it is actually harmful will depend on their specific situation, which is why a conversation with a doctor is recommended before doing any exercise, including weight lifting. While such conversations (and acting on them) may not eliminate bad outcomes, they will almost certainly reduce their probability.claireychn074 wrote: »That lifting weights as you get older is too dangerous. We’ve had conversations about whether heavy deadlifts are age appropriate on here, but I am still astounded by medical personnel who think people over a certain age shouldn’t lift - regardless of weight. I’ve been told many times that I should ease back on my lifting and do something “easier” like Pilates or yoga (and that’s probably another fitness myth - I don’t think either of those is easier!).
I have recently been diagnosed with osteoporosis, specifically in my spine. I've been lifting for roughly 10 years now and, per a chiropractor and a physiotherapist, I need to continue lifting. My GP knows nothing about exercise, I don't even ask her.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKxZmDRkQnI
Apparently you don't understand that "per a chiropractor and a physiotherapist" means that's what a chiropractor and a physiotherapist told them. So they have looked into what a chiropractor and a physiotherapist actually know, as well as what their doctor knows (apparently not much, unsurprisingly).0 -
Any thoughts about microbiomes and gut health? I know it’s becoming a widely researched area.1
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