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no sugar or flour, food addiction?
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neanderthin wrote: »Interesting I would never have thought that steak, mashed and corn were ultra processed foods and I suspect there was some ultra processed food in there somewhere like the chocolate milk, maybe, lemonade, margarine and gravy... basically the main part of the meal and I suspect, calories where contained in what appears from the photo, whole foods. Also it was half a plate of meat and the other half was mashed, seriously lol. The whole food plate looked like they were eating a plate broccoli. Canned corn personally I would classify as a processed food and not ultra processed. Very strange really.
Ultra processed is the discussion.
Exactly - these meals aren't what most people might assume from the labels "unprocessed" and "ultra-processed".
More locally (this subthread), the discussion was the Hall et al crossover study of calorie intake when people were eating ad libitum of ultra-processed vs. unprocessed foods in meals of matched nutrients. Those are literally meals from that study. If anyone thinks I'm cherry-picking (by showing day one dinner from each!), they can download the PDF and take a look. It's free.
I think the study is useful, but I think people base arguments on the abstract from that study (or worse yet, popular-press reports about that study), and make assumptions about the meals that aren't all that reasonable when a person actually looks at the meals.
Yeah, agree. I don't know if you've ever heard of NOVA, I'll put a link to it. I find it's a decent interpretation. Of course people will have differing opinions but it's a decent base.
https://archive.wphna.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/WN-2016-7-1-3-28-38-Monteiro-Cannon-Levy-et-al-NOVA.pdf
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I think the possibility of food addiction can be real. It's most likely a sugar addiction. Brought to us in the processed food which has sugar added to just about everything.
I'm no expert by any means, I do think that sweets trigger the same hormones that all pleasure triggers
So, the brain may ... May give one the "this is great" signals enough that a person needs that little fix. Or when not happy the food can trigger a little mental pick-me-up
Just my thoughts, no science behind this just a humble opinion
Proving me wrong will be accepted gracefully, I'm not too proud to be corrected
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The word sugar addiction is, in my view, just a word used to talk about the unwillingness not to use it. Blaming processed food and the food industry is blaming commerce for selling what the public wants. When has commerce ever insisted on selling products that the public does not want to buy? The only people who are to blame for sugar in food is the people who buy food that contains sugar. How can we claim that? Because sugar is used all the time by home cooks as well.mrpaulcole wrote: »I think the possibility of food addiction can be real. It's most likely a sugar addiction. Brought to us in the processed food which has sugar added to just about everything.
I'm no expert by any means, I do think that sweets trigger the same hormones that all pleasure triggers
So, the brain may ... May give one the "this is great" signals enough that a person needs that little fix. Or when not happy the food can trigger a little mental pick-me-up
Just my thoughts, no science behind this just a humble opinion
Proving me wrong will be accepted gracefully, I'm not too proud to be corrected
Just have a look in the spoiler. It has some nice examples.Baked beans:In the past, I scoffed at the inclusion of "added sugar" to the nutrition facts label. I thought it was ridiculous, even more so in view of the laughable claim that "sugar is toxic". But then I realised that this is something of a move by the food industry to protect itself against a malevolent few who want to vilify them.
All three recipes contain sugar
Bread:
All three recipes contain sugar
Spaghetti
All three recipes contain sugar
Spinach
All three recipes contain sugar
Broccoli
All three recipes contain sugar
No one is claiming that the food industry is a bunch of holier-than-though angels, but it has only a single vice that is also a legal requirement: to make as much money as possible by selling as much product as possible to as many people as possible. The only way to do that is by producing and selling what people want and not what they don't want. So, they add sugar because people want it.
However, there is a vocal minority that likes to vilify the industry for its sugar addition, and they loved nothing more than a nutrition facts label that did have "sugars" but not "added sugars". As a result, we saw claims vilifying the fruit juice industry because its juices contained as much sugar as, say, Coca Cola, and implying that this was the food industry "trying to poison us". The nutrition facts label has changed to counter that false narrative.
Sugar is not a poison and it is not addictive. Many people, but far from all, like it, like it a lot and can't have enough of it. That is not the food industry's fault, it is simply the result of people buying what they want to buy.
Sugar is not alone in that story. Take a look at the "gluten-free" market. It was once next to impossible to buy gluten-free product, they are now everywhere, simply because a naive public has believed some "guru" and bought into the myth that gluten is terrible for everybody.
Take a look at coconut oil. Once vilified for being a terrible tropical oil that should not be in food, it has become a darling of the alternologists, and we now see it everywhere.
Is that all because the food industry is evil, or is it because the food industry does what its customers want? The food industry can't be evil for not doing something and still be evil for doing it and then again be evil for not doing it anymore.
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Somehow people believe that the attachment to something in the external world can somehow resolve the problems of their inner world. Addiction is when you want to stop something, and when you try to, you can't. Its begins with pain, and it ends with pain. Your in pain and you practice whatever you do to get away from the pain and it could be drugs, alcohol, pornography, sex, food, it doesn't really matter, which then leads to more pain and the cycle continues. That's how I see it and many others. Yeah, maybe medically speaking at this point in time certain terminology is used to argue the point, but does semantics really matter to the person that is going through this pain, I don't think so. cheers.1
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Agree. When you can get 2 cheeseburgers for $3 versus paying $10 for a more vitamin/mineral and lower calorie option, COST matters to people who just don't make as much money. Not to mention that people today are very overburdened with work time, commute time and little time to actually prepare food. A tired body and mind will succumb to the easiest way to get food in the body and many times it's just stopping at a drive thru.BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Indeed. It should also be added that the islanders have a reputation of being able to be fatter than most before their risk for metabolic diseases increases. There is a hypothesis that this has to do with the fact that they had to be able to survive long trips over sea to reach the islands and that this "talent for fatness" is therefore a result of (un)natural selection. However, to the best of my knowledge, that hypothesis has not yet been confirmed. It just seems to fit with observations.By population, the Southern Pacific islands have the highest obesity rates per capita. Now having lived in and visiting islands in those areas, I can attest that it wasn't ultra processed foods that contributed to their girths there. When I lived there (Saipan and having visited Marshall Islands and Palau) the population focused a lot on family/friend gatherings every weekend and partied with food all day. There was never a time I didn't walk the beach and many people I knew (small island) were there and inviting us all the time to eat pig, tons of rice, fried foods and many fruit laden sweets. As well as little exercise for many since at the time, gyms were almost non existent at the time. And this was in the 80's.
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Blaming "ultraprocessed foods" for all the evils on the planet seems a little inexpensive. I think that easy availability and low prices are more likely to be the main problem, possibly in combination with the reality that people in disadvantaged positions don't have the resources that allow them to engage in gastronomic cooking, which makes it easier for them to go for the much cheaper junk.
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Yes I think food addiction is real. Just like drugs or alcohol, food is addictive. There is an organization called Overeaters Anonymous based on the alcoholics anonymous 12 step program. Works for some people but not others.2
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I'm not convinced that sugar/flour are addictions.
At one time I thought they might be ... in relationship to how I personally react to them; sugar much more so than flour. I would crave more soon after consuming some. And I would have a very hard time not giving in to that craving, even when I was over-full to the point of discomfort or groggy/drowsy from too much of it. ...About then I started reading thoughts about it on these discussion boards and started to do some research online. That was about a dozen years ago.
Now I recognize that there are some studies (that I cannot name off the top of my head, but did read summaries or hear discussions about) that sugar stimulates brain satisfaction hormones, others that it has a similar effect to the effects of marijuana on the brain. And of course, I also had the experience of receiving information to contradict those findings/views.
So, I have determined that 'no one really knows'
And I observed how I and other people I knew personally have reacted to modifications in their diet to try and control over-consumption of food items in the hopes of losing excess weight more easily, with less cravings and hunger discomfort. ... And this is what I have determined from all this. ...
1. I have less cravings and can stay more comfortably within my calorie deficit to lose weight when I don't eat stuff full of sugar and flour. That I can eat a slice of bread, or have a couple of sugary fruits a day, but not more than that or I get hard-to-deal-with-cravings-for-more-more-more!
2. That some of my personal buddies/family have lost significant excess weight be limiting or abstaining from all consumption of sugar/flour, and others can also have some, on a limited basis without difficulty.
3. That I simply cannot eat candy or baked goods that are high in sugar without going into a tailspin of over-indulgence and those darned cravings and obsessive thoughts of that kind of food. .. So I accept that if I buy it and bring it home, it will be All-Gone within 12 hours, and that I will have to suffer through cravings for the next several days before those thoughts and cravings cease.
So ... in the end, some people would consider these reactions as being addicted, others would call it lack of will-power, and still others would critique that it's lifestyle choices. ... I don't much care what others call it. I call it "Out of sight, out of mind". and "Stay away from it".7 -
surfing links, stumbled across a study (the kind that make my eyeballs spin!) which seems to be a study of studies and done to consider how 'GLP-1' type drugs work (with respect to diabetes &/or weight loss.)
Further, the part that caught my attention was the first sentence in the "Conclusion: Current preclinical studies support the view that GLP-1 can be a target for reward system related disorders. More translational research is needed to evaluate its efficacy on human reward system related disorders." (bold is mine; i had not heard the term "reward system related disorders before; makes sense to me.)
https://frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2020.614884/full#B15
within the article "reward system related disorders" are discussed at some length, and the 'discussion' paragraph identifies them better than i can, so including a snippet/quote of it (bold is mine):
"Discussion
To our knowledge, this study is the most up to date and comprehensive translational review of the effect of GLP-1 on reward. Our current review demonstrates that GLP-1 not only decreases palatable food intake, but it can also decrease cocaine, amphetamine, alcohol, and nicotine use in animal models (Supplementary Tables 1, 2). A limited number of human studies also support the central regulatory role of GLP-1 on reward pathway functional connectivity (Supplementary Table 3).
/end article snippets
as a lay person, I would say the 'palatable food intake' description used in the article is about the 'hyper-palatable foods' we talk about in terms of food addiction. And, from personal experience, food response for me is exceptionally similar to nicotine with respect to physical responses, increased tolerance develops, withdrawal symptoms include physical agitation and these physical response (driven in the reward pathways of the brain?) are part of the 'use disorder' which also goes hand in hand with the behavioral part/things such as beliefs, attitudes, habits, mal-adaptive eating patterns, skills for weight management and 'addiction like' recovery/treatments.
on a different thought - if the GLP-1 type drugs chemically alter/reduce the use of these substances - what happens when the GLP-1 drug is no longer used. Do the physical drives, cravings, strong urges return? Meaning, if a person is addicted to alcohol, are they forever addicted? Does the physical addiction return if they stop the drug or resume drinking, using drugs or using nicotine?
In my personal experience, if I start Excess/Over-eating hyper-palatable foods, it does not take very long for the physical voracious, insatiable appetite and cravings to return - and for the physical agitation and withdrawals occurs all over again when I try to stop.
The argument for defining the problem (for some people, the ones who suffer from it) as a real, medical food addiction - it will be easier for people to have a common understanding for definition, treatments and further research.... as is being done for the other things.2 -
My younger brother passed away March 12 (this year) from overdose after years of abusing meth and alcohol. As much as we tried to encourage him to get help and go to rehab, it just wasn't enough. His reasoning was always depression and his issue was that his kids told him that unless he stops, they won't have a relationship with him. So what he abused is what caused him to lose his kids and he kept abusing to help alleviate his pain. He ended up at 116lbs, liver and kidney issues and ultimately having cardiac arrest. His celebration and funeral will be the 27th.
And many know I don't really buy into the food addiction because had that been my brother's issue, I'm sure it would be much more attainable and less complicated having to control eating habits versus drug and alcohol dependency.
Again, I'm not discounting that people deal with eating disorders and that they aren't real, I just don't caterogize it in the same column as drug addiction or alcoholism.
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My younger brother passed away March 12 (this year) from overdose after years of abusing meth and alcohol. As much as we tried to encourage him to get help and go to rehab, it just wasn't enough. His reasoning was always depression and his issue was that his kids told him that unless he stops, they won't have a relationship with him. So what he abused is what caused him to lose his kids and he kept abusing to help alleviate his pain. He ended up at 116lbs, liver and kidney issues and ultimately having cardiac arrest. His celebration and funeral will be the 27th.
And many know I don't really buy into the food addiction because had that been my brother's issue, I'm sure it would be much more attainable and less complicated having to control eating habits versus drug and alcohol dependency.
Again, I'm not discounting that people deal with eating disorders and that they aren't real, I just don't caterogize it in the same column as drug addiction or alcoholism.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Sorry for your loss, Niner.3 -
My younger brother passed away March 12 (this year) from overdose after years of abusing meth and alcohol. As much as we tried to encourage him to get help and go to rehab, it just wasn't enough. His reasoning was always depression and his issue was that his kids told him that unless he stops, they won't have a relationship with him. So what he abused is what caused him to lose his kids and he kept abusing to help alleviate his pain. He ended up at 116lbs, liver and kidney issues and ultimately having cardiac arrest. His celebration and funeral will be the 27th.
And many know I don't really buy into the food addiction because had that been my brother's issue, I'm sure it would be much more attainable and less complicated having to control eating habits versus drug and alcohol dependency.
Again, I'm not discounting that people deal with eating disorders and that they aren't real, I just don't caterogize it in the same column as drug addiction or alcoholism.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My thoughts and prayers go out to you niner. I lost my younger brother in January this year from a life of drug and alcohol addiction.6 -
My condolences to you as well.neanderthin wrote: »My younger brother passed away March 12 (this year) from overdose after years of abusing meth and alcohol. As much as we tried to encourage him to get help and go to rehab, it just wasn't enough. His reasoning was always depression and his issue was that his kids told him that unless he stops, they won't have a relationship with him. So what he abused is what caused him to lose his kids and he kept abusing to help alleviate his pain. He ended up at 116lbs, liver and kidney issues and ultimately having cardiac arrest. His celebration and funeral will be the 27th.
And many know I don't really buy into the food addiction because had that been my brother's issue, I'm sure it would be much more attainable and less complicated having to control eating habits versus drug and alcohol dependency.
Again, I'm not discounting that people deal with eating disorders and that they aren't real, I just don't caterogize it in the same column as drug addiction or alcoholism.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My thoughts and prayers go out to you niner. I lost my younger brother in January this year from a life of drug and alcohol addiction.
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@ninerbuff ~ so very sorry for your loss ~ we also have had family and friends lose their lives directly resulting from their complications with addictions; drugs and alcohol... it can be so physically gruesome... and emotionally tortuous.
addictions and depths of addictions are not equivalent on all levels or in progression - the absence/strength of particulars does not negate the existence of other addictions or progressions into addiction - and to dismiss the existence of other addictions is to dismiss the real pain and suffering of those experiencing whatever form of hellacious addiction they suffer.
i *think* in the past ~ the fall-out of *food addiction* has not been recognized as a real addiction - as far as I know - there is not yet a 'medical diagnosis' for food addiction as a medical condition - like CKD (chronic kidney disease.... which leads to kidney failure/dialysis in many cases).
-- The expression/results of excess eating/food addiction can lead to physical symptoms of obesity which does have a medical diagnosis which opens particular treatment paths such as weight loss surgery or medication - but often the diagnosis is used to exclude other treatments (like dietary support or psychotherapy.)
-- i would suggest that a 'medical diagnosis for food addiction' would open up appropriate treatment paths to address it as an illness - the same as alcohol or drug addiction.
further 'food addiction' is not yet classified as a 'psychological disorder' but the expression of eating patterns such as binge eating can lead to diagnosis such as binge eating disorder - which tends to focus on the 'emotional/disordered/distorted thinking'
like other substance abuse disorders - the answer is likely a complex combination - unique in some ways to each individual person - but common fall out.
-- in our family - alcoholism led to liver failure, drug use to suicide in addition to body wasting, smoking to emphysema cancer and copd, food addiction/compulsive eating inability to step away from execss food to other very widespread greusome physical health complications... the end of any of these expressed addictions is beyond sad ---- the person who suffers does not deserve disdain or shaming or judgement - they need empathy, compassion and help.
sadly for all addictions - overcoming and reaching sobriety is difficult - not impossible, consequences dire and often irreversible with chronic and progressive medical disease complications - recognizing the 'medical and/or psychological underlying factors' can point to treatment and recovery - if/when the user/abuser will choose that. Can't make anyone put down drugs, alcohol, cigarettes/vaping nor Excess food... There is a personal responsibility to change - and when the person doesn't, it is devastating to see the fallout.... for Excess food - severe obesity and related medical complications/difficult thinking is as devastating and no less gruesome.2 -
Sorry for your losses, @ninerbuff, @neanderthin and @LifeChangz
My ex's brother died from alcohol related causes. He fell and hit his head and was in a coma and then in the hospital for a number of weeks, so was completely physically detoxed. Yet, when he got out and was in the supermarket with my ex, went to the beer section and started drinking out of the cooler (with no wallet or intention to pay).
I've probably been to hundreds of AA & NA meetings over the years, mostly with friends/family. Here's something I posted earlier today on another thread:kshama2001 wrote: »[snip]
Back in the 90's, I stopped self-medicating with alcohol after just one meeting each of Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery, which are essentially CBT-based. Unfortunately, RR is now defunct. I really liked its Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. While AVRT is similar to CBT's "Catch it, Check it, Change it," I found AVRT more powerful.
A free offshoot of RR, SR has online meetings, looks like every day https://meetings.smartrecovery.org/meetings/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_Recovery
SMART Recovery is an international non-profit organization that provides assistance to individuals seeking abstinence from addiction. SMART stands for Self-Management and Recovery Training. The SMART approach is secular and research-based, using cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and non-confrontational motivational methods.[1]
SMART Recovery is an alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and other twelve-step programs. SMART differs from AA in that addiction is viewed by the organization as a dysfunctional habit, rather than a disease as it is framed in AA, while allowing that it is possible that certain people have a predisposition toward addictive behavior.[2] SMART Recovery does not focus on spiritual growth as a key component of behavior modification and thus does not encourage individuals to admit powerlessness over addictions, nor use the concept of a "Higher Power".
For me, ceasing to self-medicate with alcohol was MUCH easier than with food, precisely because we need food to live. I'm in a toxic family situation, am under a tremendous amount of stress, and have been struggling with food. I'm more than half way through a 10 week CBT skills group right now and am not finding it particularly helpful, perhaps because it is not specifically focused on food.
To be continued in my next post so I don't mess up the quotes.2 -
[snipped the quote from the study]
While there is some evidence to show it "may" be an addiction, I'm still not fully convinced it is. I'm NOT dismissive that people don't struggle with food, carbs, sweets, etc., but I do believe that mixed information can lead them to believe they may be hopeless so why even bother? Trust that I've dealt with many a client with that attitude when they first hit their first stall. When I get them to believe it's not an actual "addiction", they seem to not struggle as much and their discipline gets better. Anyway, there is no set concensus by science, so I'll still stick to it not being an addiction till science actually identifies it as such.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutritionIn this particular context, a lot hinges on whether the particular individual we're trying to help thinks "addiction = I'm powerless to change" vs. "addiction = treatable condition that can be changed with the right interventions". From reading this thread, it seems like people here have had varying reactions to the term, loosely on that kind of interpretive scale.
(That's leaving out the people who truly do use the word casually, which is certainly a thing that happens.)
This is a good point. I'm firmly in the "addiction = treatable condition that can be changed with the right interventions" camp. However, I can see how some would think "addiction = I'm powerless to change," especially given AA's focus on powerlessness, which I think does those seeking recovery a disservice. I find hammering on people that they are powerless to be...disempowering.
While I disagree with the first part of Step 1, and never got anywhere with AA personally, I am glad it is there for those it does help.
I'm so glad I found the Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery (which is now defunct) groups that I mentioned in my previous post.
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@kshama2001 ~ thank you for mentioning the Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery (now defunct) groups. a book I read, think it was 'food junkies' by Tarman had maybe 1 paragraph on the idea of rational recovery - and my thought was - tuck this away, might be something helpful to explore and of interest for me. I have found CBT helpful that I stumbled across in various resources.... it is action, pro-active forward looking....
12 step programs also do not generally ring my bell either, i think essentially, because i do not consider these things to be moral failures but rather complex struggles (physical and/or behavioral) that are possible to improve, often with intervention as well.
I can see however the usefulness of peer support and forum to talk about related issues with 12-step groups.... and, there is a kernel of truth in the admission of 'feeling powerless' with the problem. for me, it does not mean recovery is impossible - the admission is more a recognition that a real problem exists and provides a fresh starting point (again) - as it can take many efforts to get the use stopped and recovery to take hold (crash, burn, get up, dust off, assess, make a game plan and go more; repeat ad nauseum as long as it takes.)
Along those lines I find the Prochaska change model helpful - with the more recent additions of stage 7 transcendance and a descriptive inclusion in the center of the improvement spiral effect reflecting that people can move forwards/backwards, up/down during the process of change/recovery but that is part of the learning process and improvement. I noticed the spiral of improvement when I was quitting sickerettes, and reached transcendance about year 5. still working on the food thing....
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LifeChangz wrote: »on a different thought - if the GLP-1 type drugs chemically alter/reduce the use of these substances - what happens when the GLP-1 drug is no longer used. Do the physical drives, cravings, strong urges return?
Judging from myself, if/when you stop the drug, the hunger comes back, with a vengeance. Well, at least for me it did. When starting out my doctor prescribed a similar drug for a six month period in 2021 (liraglutide - VICTOZA, daily injections) and while there were no side effects when taking it, the following three months after quitting (I didn't want to become addicted to it, and the monetary cost was severe too) were hell on earth. I managed to power through and keep on losing 130lb more afterwards, but if I knew the effects those peptide receptor agonists have on you if/when you stop them I would have never, ever, even considered taking them.
If you have a lot to lose, or/and have blood sugar problems, these new drugs can really be lifesaving. But they are (potentially) for life.
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thank you @Dante_80 ~ i wondered about that. In the 90's the doctors prescribed combinations of phenphen and part of it was pulled off the market - pretty much everyone stopped. The person I knew said their appetite roared back, they regained the weight somewhat rapidly. Same with the medically supervised high protein semi-fast plans... appetite was suppressed during the semi-fast and they experienced rapid regain after the program ended (several times).
the only thing I personally have found that breaks the voracious appetite is a sustained keto or low carb eating approach - it seems to address an underlying chemical appetite trigger in my body but embracing that change in eating also means releasing the excess carb eating which is where the emotional struggle lies - especially with social and holiday feasting abundant culturally.3 -
I understand. Each person is certainly different, it would be extremely difficult for me to curb my carb consumption (I have lost my excess weight following a 55%+ carb Mediterranean diet, essentially eating what I grew up with here in Greece). I tried keto in the past and found it completely disagreeable as well as non sustainable for me.
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Doctor: The MRI shows your brain has been hijacked by dopamine pirates.
Patient: Are you writing me a prescription Doc?
Doctor: No, I'm investing and buying stock in those companies. Drum roll, symbol. 2
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