You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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Here we go again......Lowering body fat to reveal muscle =/= building new muscle. Most overweight and obese people actually have a lot of muscle mass, as it's needed to carry around excess weight. So, you lose weight and reveal that muscle, doesn't make it new. Just means you trained your CNS to actually use it properly./
mmmmmm - interesting concept - using the muscles in my arms, shoulders and chest to carry my weight around - last time I checked I actually used my legs to do that.......
You do not know me - you do not know what condition I was in when I started - so I am amazed that you feel you can make statements about what I had / did not have.....
There are 3 real people that do - my trainer - and two other trainers at the gym that I work out at - they have been with me since day one - know what I looked like - how weak I was - and where I am today, and every one of them will tell you that I have built muscle (and not because I pay them) but because they are pretty impressed with what I have achieved in the past 18 months....0 -
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So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong... All this time I've been using my chest, arm, and back muscles to move and support my arms and torso. How silly of me, of course my leg muscles move my arms!Here we go again......Lowering body fat to reveal muscle =/= building new muscle. Most overweight and obese people actually have a lot of muscle mass, as it's needed to carry around excess weight. So, you lose weight and reveal that muscle, doesn't make it new. Just means you trained your CNS to actually use it properly.
mmmmmm - interesting concept - using the muscles in my arms, shoulders and chest to carry my weight around - last time I checked I actually used my legs to do that.......
You do not know me - you do not know what condition I was in when I started - so I am amazed that you feel you can make statements about what I had / did not have.....
There are 3 real people that do - my trainer - and two other trainers at the gym that I work out at - they have been with me since day one - know what I looked like - how weak I was - and where I am today, and every one of them will tell you that I have built muscle (and not because I pay them) but because they are pretty impressed with what I have achieved in the past 18 months....
Again, strength gains have NOTHING to do with muscle gain. Strength comes from training your central nervous system to efficiently use your muscle mass. You can gain mass without strength, and you can gain strength without gaining mass, they are pretty mutually exclusive.0 -
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
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So... in 20 years, you didn't gain any muscle, just fat. And this is your evidence that you can gain muscle during deficit...
Got it.0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.0
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You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
that is the title of the thread.0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.
What you're really saying here, is that under all this boob and juice, I've got a rockin six pack? :bigsmile:0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.
What you're really saying here, is that under all this boob and juice, I've got a rockin six pack? :bigsmile:
Of course, everybody has the same ab muscles, they just like to hide.:drinker:0 -
You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.
While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.0 -
LMAO. Please look at my left arm and shoulder in the pic. when I was 25 and the next pic. when I was 41. and just started to work out. I know I have a t-shirt on in the second pic. but there isnt much difference!! And the difference there was is fat. Then look at the other pics, there is a big difference.So... in 20 years, you didn't gain any muscle, just fat. And this is your evidence that you can gain muscle during deficit...
Got it.0 -
Just keep doing what you are doing. It works.
You're probably a mid-teen BF% I'd guess. As the BF goes lower (if that's your goal), mass gains are going to be harder and harder from now on.
I'm 44 and I want to get my BF retested but not until I hit my goal weight. But I''ve lost weight from the beginning and my lifts haven't suffered. Bench has slowly gone up if anything. Hard to tell about my size though. When I hit my goal weight, I'll get retested and see what happened. It's more about curiousity than anything else. I've lost inches where I've wanted so far and have maintained size/strength where I've wanted. But I do want to operate at a lower weight so it's less stress on my joints. And I'm a tad quicker operating at a lower weight0 -
you look good, you're happy, roll with it
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What you are saying makes no sense at all. Why would bodybuilders go through cut/bulk cycles if this were true? You are grossly misinformed.
Because that's the most EFFICENT way of gaining mass. Not because it's impossible to do it otherwise
Huh? How is spending 3x as long cutting/bulking more "efficient"?
At least in part it is more efficient because they want to put on huge amounts of muscle. I frankly wouldn't want to put on the sort of muscle a body builder has, although in the past I did. Right now I want a body that is muscular, but not bodybuilder style. Frankly, while I would say putting muscle on in a deficit is not absolutely impossible, it is EXTREMELY difficult. It takes very careful monitoring of your macro nutrients and likely of your micro nutrients as well. It takes huge amounts of work, and likely the right genetics, especially if you want to put on substantial amounts of muscle. Frankly, it is easier, albeit still a lot of work, to do this using a caloric surplus and the cut down. Macros are still important even then, but not so vitally important that you won't put any muscle on if they are off by a bit. Frankly, it seems that it is so difficult unless you are a newbie, have the past muscle memory, or are obese, that one might as well say it is impossible. Certainly big gains in a short period of time are impossible.0 -
No I didnt but please see the pics. Alos please show me where I ever mentioned the word strength?
dudett, your wrong, please look at the pics I just posted 2 posts above.Huge difference between maintaining muscle mass and gaining muscle mass.. dude, you're wrong. For the vast majority of people, muscle mass gains will not occur without a calorie surplus and a lot of very hard work.
UGH.
Did you actually get a scan done to determine the amount of lean mass you had before/after or are you just basing this on your pictures?
I can tell you right now that strength gains do NOT equal muscle mass gains. I lost 10 lbs of lean mass with my weight loss and my legpress went from 80 lbs max to 210 lbs max and my quats and hamstrings are definitely bigger than they were before, but this is due to conditioning, not adding mass.
What you are saying makes no sense at all. Why would bodybuilders go through cut/bulk cycles if this were true? You are grossly misinformed.
You lost 10 lbs of lean mass? What did you weigh? What is your maintence for calorie intake, what was was your actual calorie intake during this time. How many grams of protein on avg. did you consume daily during this time and also what was your workout program during this time. Split, sets, reps etc.
The reason BBers bulk and cut is because it is a more efficient way to gain lean muscle. ( I never said it wasnt) But they are not drasticly over weight like myself or many others on this board.0 -
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
I wouldn't say you we're skinny fat. It looks like you gained fat and some muscle as your shoulders look wider then your supposed skinny fat photo. Then when you lost fat you could see the muscle. There could have been some muscle gain but hard to tell. DEXA would have confirmed it.
Also, as you get fatter your muscles will need to work harder just carrying your extra bulk around so whilst you gained fat, you more than likely gained some muscle.0 -
Thx and yes I understand that as my BF% gets lower It will be harder to make gains, thats why I stated that the only exception is when a person has a very low BF%. As for me Im not interested in going lower than 10% BF. or have my strength start to go to heck, (im still making good gains) so which ever comes first Im gonna stop cutting. But congrads on your gains and good luck with reaching your goals.Just keep doing what you are doing. It works.
You're probably a mid-teen BF% I'd guess. As the BF goes lower (if that's your goal), mass gains are going to be harder and harder from now on.
I'm 44 and I want to get my BF retested but not until I hit my goal weight. But I''ve lost weight from the beginning and my lifts haven't suffered. Bench has slowly gone up if anything. Hard to tell about my size though. When I hit my goal weight, I'll get retested and see what happened. It's more about curiousity than anything else. I've lost inches where I've wanted so far and have maintained size/strength where I've wanted. But I do want to operate at a lower weight so it's less stress on my joints. And I'm a tad quicker operating at a lower weight0 -
LMAO. Please look at my left arm and shoulder in the pic. when I was 25 and the next pic. when I was 41. and just started to work out. I know I have a t-shirt on in the second pic. but there isnt much difference!! And the difference there was is fat. Then look at the other pics, there is a big difference.So... in 20 years, you didn't gain any muscle, just fat. And this is your evidence that you can gain muscle during deficit...
Got it.
Your shoulders are much broader in the second pic than your "skinny fat" pic. That's not all fat.0 -
After reading your post I am begining to wonder if my hubby is right, I had an illness which has left me with internal nerve damage and I have places on my body where I cannot feel so because my nerve system is damaged does that mean in those areas I won,t be able to build or restore muscle? Thanks.0
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I stopped reading and turned this into a picture story. From what I gather taking pictures while fishing makes you fat.. always take pictures in front of a bathroom mirror and you will lose weight.0
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After reading your post I am begining to wonder if my hubby is right, I had an illness which has left me with internal nerve damage and I have places on my body where I cannot feel so because my nerve system is damaged does that mean in those areas I won,t be able to build or restore muscle? Thanks.
I think if you work the damaged area you should be able to restore the muscle. It's like for example someone who say has an accident or stroke or something and loses the ability to use his arm he gets rehabilitation you re-learn how to move arm. If he didn't bother to rehabilitate he wouldn't see any improvement.0 -
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms. The problem here is I think most of the people that commented that I havent gained any lean muscle in this thread have no clue about what realistic lean muscle gains in one year are!, Even if they are not at a calorie deficit during that entire year.
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
I wouldn't say you we're skinny fat. It looks like you gained fat and some muscle as your shoulders look wider then your supposed skinny fat photo. Then when you lost fat you could see the muscle. There could have been some muscle gain but hard to tell. DEXA would have confirmed it.
Also, as you get fatter your muscles will need to work harder just carrying your extra bulk around so whilst you gained fat, you more than likely gained some muscle.0 -
No only if your fishing in Sanibel FL. I didnt start getting fat until I bought a house there and started doing 100% of my fishing there.:laugh:I stopped reading and turned this into a picture story. From what I gather taking pictures while fishing makes you fat.. always take pictures in front of a bathroom mirror and you will lose weight.0 -
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms. The problem here is I think most of the people that commented that I havent gained any lean muscle in this thread have no clue about what realistic lean muscle gains in one year are!, Even if they are not at a calorie deficit during that entire year.
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
I wouldn't say you we're skinny fat. It looks like you gained fat and some muscle as your shoulders look wider then your supposed skinny fat photo. Then when you lost fat you could see the muscle. There could have been some muscle gain but hard to tell. DEXA would have confirmed it.
Also, as you get fatter your muscles will need to work harder just carrying your extra bulk around so whilst you gained fat, you more than likely gained some muscle.
Your arms do look bigger.0 -
I believe brother! Great job dude you look great, congrats! I wish i could do that! Ive increased my arm size and increased pec size, i cant say 100% i didnt lose muscle somewhere else but my arms look awesome now. Say nana nana boo boo to the haters.I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!! Please do not let these misguided comments stop you from implementing some type of lifting program while you are on your journey for a new body!! Weight training while dieting is very important because if you dont about 22% of your total weight loss will be Lean Muscle! Most people who do not lift while dieting are not happy with their body even after they reached or even surpassed their goals.0
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No I didnt but please see the pics. Alos please show me where I ever mentioned the word strength?
You lost 10 lbs of lean mass? What did you weigh? What is your maintence for calorie intake, what was was your actual calorie intake during this time. How many grams of protein on avg. did you consume daily during this time and also what was your workout program during this time. Split, sets, reps etc.
The reason BBers bulk and cut is because it is a more efficient way to gain lean muscle. ( I never said it wasnt) But they are not drasticly over weight like myself or many others on this board.
Why are you asking for specific numbers but only using pictures for your own example? Pictures can be very deceiving, and certainly don't tell the whole story. If I take a picture of myself just after waking vs right after I've finished a heavy training session I'd look fairly different even though my stats might not have changed very much. I'm not trying to take anything away from the progress you've made, it's impressive but more importantly you seem to be happy with it, which is really what matters at the end of the day.
I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that when cutting weight, the focus should be on fat loss and not muscle gain. Regardless of how much muscle you may or may not have built when you were cutting down, it's insignificant next to the amount of fat you've lost. I do think you underestimated the amount of muscle you had gained along with fat when you were at your heaviest.
Gaining lean mass while cutting weight is extremely difficult, particularly so if you are not one or more of the following: a beginner at lifter, a former athlete off a long hiatus, very overweight. It would seem you fall into the first and third option (I'm guessing here) so gains are more likely for you than they are for someone who's low BF% and has been training regularly for a while.
At the end of the day, cut weight by eating at a deficit. Retain existing LBM with a smart lifting regime. If you gain some muscle mass in the process, whether or not random folks on the internet believe you, that's great for you. But why try to make that an expectation for others when it's extremely difficult in all but a few select situations and even then only comes in small quantities? There's a reason diets that tout "it's easy! you can lose a bajillion pounds in 42 seconds with this program" are generally unsuccessful. People have unrealistic expectations of progress and quit out of frustration. I'm genuinely happy for you given the progress you've made, I think it's fantastic. I recognize that your intent was to warn people against giving up lifting while cutting weight. That's an extremely good piece of advice. That being said I think a 'better' way to say things would be along the lines of:
To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program. Muscle gains during this time are possible, but unlikely in all but a few scenarios. The focus while cutting should be to maximize fat loss, and retain as much lean mass as possible. If the focus is to gain muscle mass, the appropriate way to do that is to train while eating at a calorie surplus (and getting adequate macros). The 'cost' of this is some fat gain along with the new muscle growth.
My statement has the same suggested course of action for cutting weight, but I think provides more realistic expectations to folks undertaking the routine.
Finally, why do people keep quoting the pictures? Makes scrolling through this thread a pita.0 -
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms. The problem here is I think most of the people that commented that I havent gained any lean muscle in this thread have no clue about what realistic lean muscle gains in one year are!, Even if they are not at a calorie deficit during that entire year.
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
I wouldn't say you we're skinny fat. It looks like you gained fat and some muscle as your shoulders look wider then your supposed skinny fat photo. Then when you lost fat you could see the muscle. There could have been some muscle gain but hard to tell. DEXA would have confirmed it.
Also, as you get fatter your muscles will need to work harder just carrying your extra bulk around so whilst you gained fat, you more than likely gained some muscle.
Your arms do look bigger.
I agree, your arms are bigger.0 -
Funny I lol'd :laugh:0
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OMG you are so right!!! that was hilarious!OP you look great. I mean it. But honestly it doesn't look like you 'gained' muscle from the pics.
He'd have to gain muscle just to look like he didn't gain any muscle. Or else you'd say, it looks like you lost some muscle mass0 -
According to Lyle McDonald in the piece that I'm going to post the link for, his answer to this whole question is yes and no. The short version is that when someone is "overfat" (his term not mine) you can swap out fat for muscle on an apparent 1/1 basis. As body fat provides the energy for muscle growth in a person in an active strenght training program. As body fat reduces, the ability for that to happen reduces on a slope that is greater than just the linear reduction of body fat until it is either so slight as to be either nonexistent or unmeasurable.
To the OP, when you were "overfat" you probably did fuel muscle growth with body fat. As you got leaner that probably got less and less until it pretty much stopped altogether. Great job on the body recompostion and better health! Congrats!!
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html0
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